Pakistan International Airlines passenger plane crashes in Karachi

a reply to: Zaphod58
There was a whole episode dedicated to that on when planes crash I believe? On the weather channel. I think the episode was called who's behind the wheel?
But it has definitely happened where the copilot knew exactly what was wrong and what to do but was afraid to speak up to the captain. Both crash audio's I heard the copilot only leaves hints and doesn't speak up until it's to late.

a reply to: 772STi

Almost every crash that's ever happened, Crew Resource Management has played a role to one degree or another. After the KLM-Pan Am crash on Tenerife, CRM became more or less one of the highest priorities taught to crews. The last few years, it's obvious that the emphasis once put on it has faded significantly.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I've been watching "Air Disasters" on the Smithsonian Channel today. CRM has been the cause or a contributing factor in all of them. The Oriental mindset doesn't lend itself well to CRM.

a reply to: JIMC5499

That's been seen a lot in recent years. They need to do something to fix that before we have another tenerife sized accident. Sooner or later something really ugly will happen because of it.

Multiple articles are now raising the possibility they they forgot the gear on the first approach. One theory is thar the pilot realized at the last minute they weren't down, increased power to go around, but in the time it took for the engines to spool up they settled onto the runway.

I don't even know what to say.

Complete insanity...landing...IMPACT...go around!

From my very first post. Insanity at it's very finest, slam the airframe into the ground and then try to go around.

Remind me not to fly on this airline!! EVER!!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Fourteen pilots and 73 cabin crew were found a few years ago to be working without high school diplomas. As it was described, they weren't qualified to drive a bus, let alone fly a plane.

a reply to: Zaphod58

They had Tenerife on there. I remember when it happened. I was in sixth grade.

a reply to: Zaphod58
Those cowlings had pretty bad scrapings on the bottom of them.Not just a quick scrape like in a bad touch and go...

a reply to: Zaphod58

One has to ask; why are there not automated systems in place to prevent the landing, if the landing gear is not down? Unless of course some sort of bypass switch is engaged. We live in an era with the ability to prevent below academic average people from screwing up this bad.

a reply to: Bornsecrets

There are multiple warning systems in the cockpit, as well as the person in the tower that can check if they're down. You generally have to work to land gear up like that.

An Airbus team arrived at the crash scene today. They were scheduled to spend 16 hours on scene, and are expected to assist with the recorders.

The ADS-B data on this flight is utterly insane. They exceeded 7,000 fpm in the initial descent, and at no point were they even close to the operating speeds for flaps or landing gear.

Interesting twist. The media reported both recorders were found within a day or two. The French BEA, who is assisting with the investigation and decoding the recorders says that the CVR has not been found.

originally posted by: Bornsecrets
a reply to: Zaphod58

One has to ask; why are there not automated systems in place to prevent the landing, if the landing gear is not down? Unless of course some sort of bypass switch is engaged. We live in an era with the ability to prevent below academic average people from screwing up thngis bad.

There was such anautomated system on some small Piper models like the Cherokee Arrow, If the airspeed went below a certain limit, the landing gear automatically went down. Unfortunatrly, a few pilot let their airspeed drop when not d landing and the added drag caused the airplane to stall anspin in, killing everyone on board. Or maybe you want an automated system like MCAS on the 737 Max. Be careful what you wish for.

Some good information in this article.

www.airlineratings.com...

a reply to: Zaphod58
Great article zaph, definitely alot of info. So it appears they were so occupied getting their glide slope corrected they forgot the landing gear, and also hit the runway 70 knots to fast.

So I guess the real question is, why did such an experienced pilot, one of there best, mess up the final approach so badly? Something he's probably done hundreds if not more times. Maybe he was letting the copilot take a shot at landing. Just a guess. This is a strange one. Forgetting the gear is one thing but that glide slope just adds to the mystery.

a reply to: 772STi

I saw a comment somewhere, but haven't verified it, that there were two captains on board this flight. Between them probably not having flown much due to the pandemic, and there being two captains, if that's accurate, I can see a total breakdown in CRM taking place.

The CAA sent a letter to the airline about the pilots not following ATC instructions. The on duty approach controller submitted a non compliance report in which he highlighted the errors in the approach, and several attempts to slow the approach to allow them to descend to the proper approach altitudes and speeds.

www.dawn.com...

Do you think the Pakastani gov step in and do a full investigation of the company?From what it sounds like the aircrew were doing whatever they liked...