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Are Ventilators Killing Patients to "Protect" Healthcare Workers?

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posted on May, 2 2020 @ 08:26 AM
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a reply to: The2Billies

Better yet, write it on your body with a sharpie. Not easy to wash away.

It can't get lost in the paperwork.

Every nurse and Dr. will see that and cannot used the excuse, I didn't see it or that wasn't in the charts. They have to chart their assessments.

Maybe add something like this.

This is my living will and advance directive. I wrote this when I had a sound clear mind and weighed all of my options and this is my choice.




posted on May, 2 2020 @ 08:46 AM
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a reply to: carewemust

I thought of you when I saw this:

First wave of virus litigations are filed

Claims have been filed against hospitals and senior-living facilities, airlines and cruise lines, fitness chains and the entertainment industry - 771 as of Friday, according to a database compiled by Hunton Andrews Kurth, an international law firm tracking cases that emerge from the pandemic. The volume and variety make painfully clear that, throughout the United States, the virus has caused widespread devastation and hardship, and that the full scope of its economic toll remains to be seen.

Complaints reach across industries and state lines. Some seek significant monetary damages. Others ask for a judge to correct actions alleged to be harmful or in violation of contractual agreements.

It's happening. But I don't like this:

Leaders in Washington are contemplating action.

Keeping fingers and toes crossed... we'll see where it goes.



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 09:30 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea

Just so we have the best info possible:

Chloroquine and Hydroxy Chloroquine are two different medications. Chloroquine is more "side-effect-y" but they both are not great.

All of them inhibit RNA dependent RNA polymerases specifically (Chloroquine, Hydroxy Chloroquine, Remdesivir, Avigan, etc).

There are more natural paths on this, but whether they inhibit viral replication enough is difficult to say and given the horrible "research" going on with them currently.. I dont expect it to be forthcoming.

However, between that and more targeted immunosuppression for what appears to be cytokine storm syndrome.. And we are starting to cover a lot of the bases that concern me personally with the structure of the virus itself.

However, for places that cant shift protocol and plans quickly.. Its rough, to say the least. And if there is any incentive, whatsoever, for those higher up and disconnected from the "ground floor" ...It just adds one more factor that makes it difficult to shift gears.



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 09:49 AM
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a reply to: Serdgiam


Just so we have the best info possible: Chloroquine and Hydroxy Chloroquine are two different medications. Chloroquine is more "side-effect-y" but they both are not great.

Thank you for skooling me... I will look into that more.

Much appreciated!



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 10:20 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: drussell41


As evidenced by the dancing nurses with the "CoVid corpse." WTH were they even thinking??? But I think these dancing nurse TikTok videos are outright disrespectful and shameful. And some responses to the public backlash double down on the disrespect. I don't want to hear how stressful it is for them, and WE need to STFU, when practically the whole world has shut down to support them. People are living in the most difficult circumstances, and people are dying in the most horrendous circumstances. And they seem to think it's a joke.



Perhaps I should hang a nurse in effigy outside their hospital and claim it's only a joke and to get off my a$$ because of all the stress I experienced (and have to cope with daily) from being maimed and nearly killed. Nurses who this would find this inapproriate, but try to justify mocking the deaths of patients? GTFO.

edit on 2-5-2020 by drussell41 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 10:43 AM
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a reply to: drussell41


Perhaps I should hang a nurse in effigy outside their hospital and claim it's only a joke and to get off my a$$ because of all the stress I experienced (and have to cope with daily) from being maimed and nearly killed. Nurses who this would find this inapproriate, but try to justify mocking the deaths of patients? GTFO.

It would certainly serve these nurses right... but it wouldn't be fair for those nurses who are working hard and conscientiously and giving their all. They don't deserve that, and so many have expressed their own horror at it all. It would have to be somehow crystal clear who exactly the message is aimed towards... but now I'm feeling rather petty about it all too.

It makes me quite sad because I have always gotten the best care from nurses. I've always thought of them as our "earth angels" in large part because they bring the TLC to medical care that so many doctors lack.



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 11:28 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea

I've met exceptional nurses. However, I've met ones who could easily kill patients as well. I'm not being petty; I am still absolutely enraged. There's a difference.

I wouldn't ever do it because I wouldn't get a pass from stress, unlike the dancing nurses. I also wouldn't do it because of the innocent ones, just as you mention. But these b****** who think it's funny to joke about patient deaths? I wouldn't hesitate to attack them verbally if I ran into one in person.
edit on 2-5-2020 by drussell41 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 11:42 AM
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a reply to: drussell41


But these b****** who think it's funny to joke about patient deaths? I'd wouldn't hesitate to attack them verbally if I ran into one in person.


Under the right circumstances, hell yeah! It wouldn't even be an "attack." Just a few much needed home truths. I would have a few choice words as well.

Particularly those who have chosen to punch back against the backlash, in the most arrogant and cold-hearted ways.

Especially because I strongly suspect they've never even treated a CoVid patient, and are just riding the coattails of those who have and are. Stolen valor.



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 12:01 PM
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originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: MotherMayEye

Dr Yadegar here:



Seems to have made some kind of progress with the different presentations in patients.
Keep waiting to hear more, Im very interested in what hes doing..

Good thread Bo.. It seems that protocol may be one of the biggest determining factors for a regions success (or failure). Seems obvious, but being able to shift isnt always easy when there is a Plan.



Thank you for the video, Serdgiam!



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 12:07 PM
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a reply to: The2Billies

Very good. Everyone should have their plan ready and make sure their closest loved ones know what & where it is.



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 12:25 PM
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originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: Boadicea

I thought the #1 Rule for medical personnel is "DO NO HARM".

Maybe it only applies under certain circumstances?



I am glad to see some doctors speaking out or refusing to work if they are forced to follow protocols they believe do harm.

But, I also think people need to hold doctors' feet to the flames, and they, in turn, know exactly whose feet they need to hold to the flames...and so on.

It sounds like the ventilator protocol ultimately comes from the DoD and other government health officials with SOME built in wiggle room. Then it trickles down to hospital administrations who are toeing their line and not making much use of the wiggle room to relax/change protocols.

If we support physicians that want the protocols relaxed/changed and put pressure on the ones doing nothing to support that cause, maybe we can light a fire under them to put pressure on their hospital administrations.

Regardless...there is STILL some wiggle room for the patient. People need to know that and take action accordingly. Or not.

I'll be refusing a ventilator and insisting HFNC, Oxygen masks, CPAP/BiPAP treatment are all exhausted before even talking about a ventilator....and even then, I don't think I would consent to a ventilator. I think I'd rather die than go through that and put my family through it. If the rest fails, I doubt a ventilator would do anything but prolong the inevitable.

As to what antiviral..I don't know what I am willing to try yet. I don't think hydroxycholorquine + azithromycin is for me. My age and health make me feel like I could be more at risk for a heart arrhythmia than others. I'd have to talk it through with a doctor that I trust. I still have research to do on the various antivirals being used.

I live a couple of blocks away from a university hospital developing one of the new promising treatments. Hoping that fleshes out to be something worthwhile.



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 12:30 PM
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originally posted by: Advantage
a reply to: The2Billies

For that to actually be even a little binding/legal/enforceable/taken seriously by hospital ... you MUST rewrite this, preferably typed out and sign it in the presence of a notary ( your bank will usually do that for free) and you need to file a copy with the hospital you go to. If you are that serious about it, then follow through and make it legally enforceable.



A living will. A notary would be best but some family members can make decisions for you legally if you are unable to.

But you are absolutely correct, having a notarized living will is the very best course of action.



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 12:31 PM
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a reply to: MotherMayEye

So many words of wisdom here and good advice for everyone.

Thanks for adding it!



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 12:36 PM
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a reply to: ChaoticOrder

From what I've read, they are trying HFNC and NIV for a max of two hours before moving to a ventilator if patients don't show improvement.

The first doctor from this video talks about that, Dr. Garrone, from Italy. He said once they started extending that time way beyond those two hours, it "really paid off." But he had so much regret at the patients he lost before then:




edit on 5/2/2020 by MotherMayEye because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 12:43 PM
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originally posted by: FyreByrd
Thanks for your research.

I have been wondering about CPAPs as they are in people's homes and everywhere really. I didn't know they would nebulize (or could) the virus.

Hopefully a work around will be found.


There are HEPA filters that can be used with them (and, of course PPE minimizes the risk, too). The fear of infection from droplets sounds greatly exaggerated given the experience with SARS (more HC workers were exposed during the intubation procedure than CPAPs).

Which brings us to another issue...why is there a ridiculous problem with PPE? Why are healthcare workers more furious with people who need to work to take care of their families than they are with their own hospital administrators that are letting them down? I'd like to see more healthcare workers protesting their own hospitals than counter-protesting regular folks.

Is it because they are afraid they will lose their jobs? If so, then join the club, I say. That's exactly why people are protesting the lockdowns: They also don't want to lose their jobs.



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 12:45 PM
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a reply to: drussell41




posted on May, 2 2020 @ 12:47 PM
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originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: ANNED
The standard cpap mask raises pressure and can be used with added O2.

But it vents to the outside through vent ports.

I believe the cpap machines are useful with a modified mask that vents through a N100 filter.

I have been on a Cpap machine since 2006 for sleep apnea and at full pressure they put a lot of pressure into your lungs.

Something like this.
www.resmed.co.uk...


Thank you for adding this -- I appreciate the info on CPAP masks in general. I only have a basic knowledge, I admit, so there's far more about it that I don't know than do know. I have seen some efforts to modify masks for patients to reduce the chance of aerosolization. Thankfully some better minds than mine are working on it!


You can adjust the pressure on CPAPs/BiPAPs from what I have read. With ventilators, they have to be reprogrammed to adjust the pressure and it sounds like it's difficult to do (may even be something the manufacturer has to do IIRC).



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 12:50 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea

I have that Respiratory Therapist video if anyone wants it, let me know. I can probably find someplace to upload it and post a link for download.



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 12:55 PM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: drussell41

Sadly, yes, you're right about medical error/malpractice, which could be considered the number one cause of death -- depending on how one crunches the numbers.

And the guiding principle of "First, do no harm" seems to be taken as a suggestion by too many.

As evidenced by the dancing nurses with the "CoVid corpse." WTH were they even thinking??? But I think these dancing nurse TikTok videos are outright disrespectful and shameful. And some responses to the public backlash double down on the disrespect. I don't want to hear how stressful it is for them, and WE need to STFU, when practically the whole world has shut down to support them. People are living in the most difficult circumstances, and people are dying in the most horrendous circumstances. And they seem to think it's a joke.

On the other hand, I'm sure there are far more conscientious and compassionate healthcare providers who are giving their all, and probably find much of what is happening completely unacceptable.


DailyMail's article on those videos...the comments. I have never cried at comments, like that, before. I know cancer patients are having a hard time getting treatment in the US, right now too, but it sounds like it's really tragic in the UK.

One lady wrote her 6 year old grandchild is dying because he can't get leukemia treatment. One person after another from the UK talking about loved ones that have cancer or have other life threatening diseases and cannot get treatment.

...and the nurses were dancing for 'likes.' What a cruel slap in their faces!!!!



posted on May, 2 2020 @ 12:58 PM
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originally posted by: froglette
a reply to: The2Billies

Better yet, write it on your body with a sharpie. Not easy to wash away.

It can't get lost in the paperwork.

Every nurse and Dr. will see that and cannot used the excuse, I didn't see it or that wasn't in the charts. They have to chart their assessments.

Maybe add something like this.

This is my living will and advance directive. I wrote this when I had a sound clear mind and weighed all of my options and this is my choice.




There are free living will templates online, too.

Like this one.



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