Anti-Catholicism

This has puzzled me for some time. Why is there so much anti-Catholicism in the western world?

I was born and raised Roman Catholic in the traditional American way. I went to Mass on Sundays, went to CCD, received my first communion as a child and was confirmed as a teen-ager. I learned about the Golden Rule, the Ten Commandments, the suffering of Jesus and why he died for us. And all of this was couched in a very comforting and familiar setting of my local parish. It was cool to be Catholic, as most other kids were as well (at least where I came from). We had CYA dances, youth sports leagues, etc., and you could always fell comfortable in another Catholic church you were visiting.

As a child, I was not taught about �other� religions. Like the old George Carlin routine, I had friends �who were Catholic�, and I had friends �who were not�. Other religions, sects, etc. were never demonized or disparaged; they were simply never discussed. It wasn�t until high school when I began to date a conservative Protestant girl did I begin to notice the difference. Her family had a quiet distain for me that I could never figure out until much later in life. She had an aunt who even refused to acknowledge my presence (and later my daughter, for I ended up marrying this girl) just because I wasn�t Protestant. When I joined the Navy at 18, my eyes were opened. Being stationed in Florida for 2 years, I began to experience �holy rollers� and met people who were �born again�. I quietly listened to them (trying to keep an open mind) and endured their criticisms of my faith (most of which seemed to based on very-poorly researched propaganda). One roommate actually left various �tracts� on my bed referring to my faith as a �cult�, in an attempt to �educate� me and convert to his faith (while he was out in the church van on Saturday night, picking up prostitutes). Others would look me in the eyes and in a deadpan voice told me I was going to hell because I hadn�t �been saved� and dunked in some river. Similar events continue to occasionally visit me even today.

Now, I know my faith and church is not perfect, as it is composed of fallible humans who are all, in reality, just sinners like anyone else. There are sins of the past and problems today that need to be addressed. However, why are there so many haters? Why do other religions instruct and indoctrinate their adherents to despise Catholics? Why do Protestants say that we are not Christians? The Catholic Church (unlike many mainstream Protestant beliefs) does not:

Proselytize or otherwise attempt to actively convert believers of other faiths.
Take the money and/or personal property of those who cannot afford to give.
Condemn, threaten, or otherwise degrade the believers of other faiths.
Dream up a new belief system out of thin air / golden disks / sci-fi books / etc.

Is it simply because we are the �biggest kid on the block�, or is it something deeper? I mean, it�s not a wonder why so many American Catholics are beginning to identify with Jews; some of us feel downright prosecuted. If you don�t agree with our beliefs, that�s fine. If you don�t like the way we run our church, too bad. If you think we are evil or misguided, we are not. Catholics are level-headed and practical people for the most part. So why is there so much hate out there?

You got lucky, you didn't get raped by the holy people in catholic religon. You weren't alive when the church condemed blacks and any non-whites as less than humans. You lived when women were allowed to have lives outside of the home and kids. You lived in a time when you could go to the doctor or take medicine without them and you being burned as witches. You lived when you could learn about science and geology and biology and other things that would have you killed in the past by the church.

The past of the church stains it so much. That is why the religon is dissed on and made fun of and disdained by others. Of course, you also got lucky not to have bad experiences with the church. Others are harrassed because they aren't catholic. Others are stalked by bible lovers and are forced to listen to the catholics while trying to shop for food and such. You never had two catholics follow you around saying you going to hell unless you join their church have you?(In Georgia, freind Stephanie lives there and this happened to her and her dad while grocery shopping several times and once when at a mall)

The religon isn't all that bad, it's values anyways. Don't kill, don't steal, don't sin. But the book, the people considered holy, and it's past have ruined itself.

You want truth or what people want to hear?
A) It's evil spirits making people hate catholicism and try corrupting it because its true religion.

B) Catholicism is corrupt because .. bla bla ... its evil stupid priests who receive orders from old man have sex with children .. bla bla... what about inquisition and.. blah blah..

You get the point.

[Edited on 11-7-2003 by Megaquad]

I got lucky? Hmmm...I don't know a single person who has been attacked by a priest in any way. Seen plenty on TV, but then again TV is for entertainment. They way you make it sound I musta got REALLY lucky to have survived at all.

Is ancient history all you got? Are we to continue to pay for the sins of the past? Does that mean the Germans are all evil stormtroopers? Japanese are all blood-thirsty Samurai warriors? Russians are all faithless communists?

"Dissed on and made fun of". I am beginning to see an answer forming here........

Georgia, huh. Well, coming from someone who used to live in FLA and SC for many years, I am quite surprised to hear the Atlanta diocese is investing their time and effort into sending people out to supermarkets to convert Southern Baptists (Atlanta being the 3rd smallest diocese in the US, with only 4.0% of the total population being registered as Catholic). I guess they better get hopping, as they have a big job ahead of them......

Hmmm...I wonder if was all those nasty Georgia Catholics who owned slaves and lynched and bombed blacks who were just trying to learn how to read and earn a paycheck. Remember, ancient history is a sword than can swing both ways.........

Try to frame a response in the context of TODAY.



[Edited on 11-7-2003 by Pyros]

[Edited on 11-7-2003 by Pyros]

Today? Alter boys raped and molested for years and not stopped until 2002.

Church declaring bankrupt when they have more money then Bill Gates, owner of Wal-Mart, and the owner of Meijer put together. They didn't want to pay for damages done to the alter boys.

On sunday going you don't give me money, you go to heeeeeeellllll!!!!(Well, that in every branch of christianity, so not to bad)

The preist who hit a dad with his car and kept on driving.

Gouging people's pockets for weddings and funerals.

As I said in Georgia, and probably not only place. Stephani isn't a Baptist, she Jewish.

But then you say all I have is past? Well, the past will repeat itself if you don't learn from it's mistakes.

Besides, the church did it for about 1,400 years, the Germans were only a few years, and the Samuri weren't blood thirsty, they were soilders. Are the men and women in the U.S. armed forces blood thirsty? No, they soilders.

Do you ever ask others what experiences they have had with the church? Non church members, not church members.

Of course, can't say all of the chuirch is like this. There have to be some good leaders in the church just due to statistics and chances they didn't look at their application well enough. And where there are good leaders, good followers. Get a bad leader, bad followers. Like Hitler and Germany. Bad leader, bad followers. If Hitler had been a good guy, like Churchhill, well, good leader, good followers.

Anti-Catholic? Hmmm, I dunno if thats what it really is or if, indeed, that is what it is.........

I have my 'differences' with the Catholic Church, not the people who attend or are members of this church. My problem is with its direct 'involvement' in mis-translations of the Bible attributed to the Catholic Church; withholding certain 'books' from being included in the Bible attributed to the Catholic Church; the changing of the true Sabbath Day (Friday-sun down to Saturday sundown), thus changing the Commandments, attributed to the Catholic Church; the "ritualisation" which is present in the Catholic Church; the list goes on.

Let me make this clear, I have no problem with Catholic members and people. It is your choice. I condemn the 'system of beliefs and practices' of the Catholic Church.

regards
seekerof

Pyros Good on ya.

Most of the people here that hate or dislike the Catholic church are either small or close minded people generally misinformed or unwilling to know the truth, opting for the fasionable propagana denoting the Catholic Church.

Just about any Catholic parishoner will be aware of the bad stuff attributed to the church in the past and present. And because of the Human condition will probably continue into the future. So yess expect more alter boys coming foward tell stories of being raped by preists and brothers. But this is not done by the catholic church it is done by the individuals concerned againt the churchs doctrine. The church does not teach these things, in fact it dispises them.

Originally posted by Maddas
Pyros

Good on ya.

Most of the people here that hate or dislike the Catholic church are either small or close minded people generally misinformed or unwilling to know the truth, opting for the fasionable propagana denoting the Catholic Church.

Just about any Catholic parishoner will be aware of the bad stuff attributed to the church in the past and present. And because of the Human condition will probably continue into the future. So yess expect more alter boys coming foward tell stories of being raped by preists and brothers. But this is not done by the catholic church it is done by the individuals concerned againt the churchs doctrine. The church does not teach these things, in fact it dispises them.

Hi Maddas.
I would agree with your surmise of the situation, in general. Problem is when fact collides with mis-truths and truths collide with untruths.....
Care to clarify my above stated comments?

regards
seekerof

I find it hard to hate anyone because of their beliefs. I would take exception to the actions sometimes though.

I was raised Catholic from kindergarten (St. Josephs Academy) to 6th grade. I went to chapel every day and bowed to the statues of Mary and Joseph for prayer. I took communion and practiced all of the doctrine that was the Church with out hesitation. I believed in Jesus for the same reasons I do now.
My difference with catholicism is the amount of emphasis placed on works in terms of salvation. The doctrinal legalese of the Church seems to complicate more than simplify. I also don't see the need to confess my sins to anyone but Jesus anymore instead of a priest.

My opinion only.

Well,
First off, to the guy who commented about Pyros not being around when the Church excluded black people and minorities....

I hate to break it to ya, but Apartheid, in africa, was set-up by Protestant Dutch and Anglos, and black slavery, istelf, was first utilized by the Muslim world.

Yes, Spain was very brutal in S America, but later-day Catholic regimes were far more friendly to non-white people than many protestant empires were (look at how the French treated the N American indians in comparison to what the English did). Yes, Catholics have forced their culture upon other peoples, but Protestant countries have often (the English and Dutch, for example) attempted genocide in places like africa and N America. In today's world, the catholic church tries to integrate the world's cultures into its practices, while most protestant denominations are overwhelmingly white (save for the African American branch of the Baptist religion).
...and, it should be noted, that when the Protestants broke off from Catholicism in the 1500s, Europe was under seige by Muslim (mostly Turkish) forces. Rather than going to build palaces, like Luther claimed, a lot of the money the Catholic church raised at that time went to building the fleets/armies that kept Sulieman from conquering all of Europe.

Also, keep in mind that English Protestants committed genocide and apartheid in Ireland for 300+ years... a fact that is deliberately ignored by the pro-English school system in the USA.

To answer Pyros question, though, anti-catholicism is rampant because both the media and academic world are OK with it... If anything, modern academics encourage anti-catholicism.

There are many things to say here, but not enough time. Notice, though, how tales of molestation, recovered DURING HYPNOSIS, always make it to page one of the paper... but, when those memories are shown to be false years later, the story's retraction is always on page 88.

If you want to know more about the Catholic church go to cuttingedge.org and check out "What saith Rome" The RCC is nothing more than paganism with the very useful trappings of Christianity. There are so many doctrines of the Catholics that are nowhere in the bible and even directly contrary to what the bible teaches.

Uhhh...

Yeah, no duh. That's because the catholic church is not based on a "solo scriptura" mindset like Protestantism is. There's no conspiracy there...


The charge "it's not in the bible!" is often said by people who don't realize that the Catholic Church believes that God's presence is continous, and so is always guiding human thought. If the Church adopts the ideas of a 12th Century Theologian, it's not being un-christian, it's just saying that God intended for people to continue to develop the ideas first introduced by Christ.

Many of the things said in the Bible are crude and barbaric, reflecting bronze and early iron age mentalities... Only the very end of the book introduces 'enlightened' ideals. To say that modern Christians must "lock" themselves into exactly what was said in the past is no different than saying that Christ was wrong to disagree with his elders (which he did).

For people to reflect on Christ's ideas and further develop them is not pagan or 'un-Christian'... it's civilized, to be frank, and probably what Jesus intended.

PS: My point is that the last 15% of the Bible contradicts the first 85% of it. Saying that Catholicism is a fraud because it contradicts this or that part of the bible is a non-argument because the bible contradicts itself so often.

The bible does not contradict itself. Catholicism in many ways directly contradicts what the bible teaches. If you want to see the main areas of "contradiction" in the bible set straight go to carm.org, they explain things nicely, after all it's easy to look at a few verses and say "look, a contradiction", when in fact the person saying it has no knowledge of the bible.

The most important bible contradiction:

Theme of the First 85% of the Bible:If your neighbor is different than you, smite him down
Theme from the Last 15%:Love thy neighbor

I'm not saying that the Bible is false.. if, anything, i think these contradictions are intended to make you think... What I am saying is that there are many things in the Bible and Christianity that can be approached from different angles. The whole situation is more complex than any concept which says that any one group is totally wrong.

Hmmn..
Just went to the website you recomended:

www.carm.org...

I found it interesting that 1 billion catholics are not really christians.. as they don't believe in what CARM teaches (I thought the sidenote, "...those Catholics who happen to believe in what CARM teaches are Christians and will be saved").

Sorry, this dude from CARM is a crank who believes that everyone who doesn't see the world his way isn't a real Christian. I wonder what Christ thinks about that?

Originally posted by onlyinmydreams
The most important bible contradiction:

Theme of the First 85% of the Bible:If your neighbor is different than you, smite him down
Theme from the Last 15%:Love thy neighbor

The Fulfillment of the Law
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Jesus was a human sacrifice for all sins, alowing everyone to forgive each others instead of revenging. His sacrifice changed some laws, and everyone now can be saved because of it.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Anti-Catholic? Hmmm, I dunno if thats what it really is or if, indeed, that is what it is.........

I have my 'differences' with the Catholic Church, not the people who attend or are members of this church. My problem is with its direct 'involvement' in mis-translations of the Bible attributed to the Catholic Church; withholding certain 'books' from being included in the Bible attributed to the Catholic Church; the changing of the true Sabbath Day (Friday-sun down to Saturday sundown), thus changing the Commandments, attributed to the Catholic Church; the "ritualisation" which is present in the Catholic Church; the list goes on.

Let me make this clear, I have no problem with Catholic members and people. It is your choice. I condemn the 'system of beliefs and practices' of the Catholic Church.

regards
seekerof

With respect to the mis translation of the scriptures you need to clarify which parts. I know of one, which since Vatican 2 has since been changed. Exodus 20:2,17, dealing with the ten commandments. Traditonally catholics considered versus 1-6 as one commandment and verse 17 as two.

Stating that the Catholics have withheld certian book from the bible is just codswallop. What bible do you read? The catholic Bible actually has more books than other religions. Known as the Alexandrian Canon, with seven additional books in the old testament (1 and 2 Maccabees,Tobit,Judith,Sirach,Wisdom and Baruch) as well as additional parts to Daniel and Esther. This canon was translated by Greek and Jewish scholars and became the the scriptures commonly used by early christian authors. These additional books are refered to as the Deuterocanon.
Today Jews and most Protestants accept the Palestian Canon as the Bible.
Further there is little or no disrepencies between the translations of any bible I know of. So the statement you have made so far has no grounding.

The change of the sabbath from the saturday to sunday, has been adopted by by many protestant churches. The reason is that Jesus rose on the Sunday thus making a new covenant, over ruling the original one.

Ritualistation, again clarifly yourself. Many protestant religions follow those of the catholic church, except the reverance of the Saint and Mary.

The Christian religions existant today are all fractions from the Catholic church. So for arguments sake, how could they be more right than the original catholic church.

I'll say it again, with respect to the non-catholic religions, All of the misconceptions of the catholic church are attributed to small or narrow minded people following the unfounded fanishonable anti-catholic propagana. Most of this fact you are saying is mainly imagined.

Originally posted by Maddas

Originally posted by Seekerof
Anti-Catholic? Hmmm, I dunno if thats what it really is or if, indeed, that is what it is.........

I have my 'differences' with the Catholic Church, not the people who attend or are members of this church. My problem is with its direct 'involvement' in mis-translations of the Bible attributed to the Catholic Church; withholding certain 'books' from being included in the Bible attributed to the Catholic Church; the changing of the true Sabbath Day (Friday-sun down to Saturday sundown), thus changing the Commandments, attributed to the Catholic Church; the "ritualisation" which is present in the Catholic Church; the list goes on.

Let me make this clear, I have no problem with Catholic members and people. It is your choice. I condemn the 'system of beliefs and practices' of the Catholic Church.

regards
seekerof

With respect to the mis translation of the scriptures you need to clarify which parts. I know of one, which since Vatican 2 has since been changed. Exodus 20:2,17, dealing with the ten commandments. Traditonally catholics considered versus 1-6 as one commandment and verse 17 as two.

Stating that the Catholics have withheld certian book from the bible is just codswallop. What bible do you read? The catholic Bible actually has more books than other religions. Known as the Alexandrian Canon, with seven additional books in the old testament (1 and 2 Maccabees,Tobit,Judith,Sirach,Wisdom and Baruch) as well as additional parts to Daniel and Esther. This canon was translated by Greek and Jewish scholars and became the the scriptures commonly used by early christian authors. These additional books are refered to as the Deuterocanon.
Today Jews and most Protestants accept the Palestian Canon as the Bible.
Further there is little or no disrepencies between the translations of any bible I know of. So the statement you have made so far has no grounding.

The change of the sabbath from the saturday to sunday, has been adopted by by many protestant churches. The reason is that Jesus rose on the Sunday thus making a new covenant, over ruling the original one.

Ritualistation, again clarifly yourself. Many protestant religions follow those of the catholic church, except the reverance of the Saint and Mary.

The Christian religions existant today are all fractions from the Catholic church. So for arguments sake, how could they be more right than the original catholic church.

I'll say it again, with respect to the non-catholic religions, All of the misconceptions of the catholic church are attributed to small or narrow minded people following the unfounded fanishonable anti-catholic propagana. Most of this fact you are saying is mainly imagined.

Having had a Catholic bible from the old days, I'd agree on the additional books. My recollections of reading Mac. and Baruch were that they were extensions written by old Testament (other) prophets. There has been some debate as to the authenticity though(?)

I think Luther's main objection was that of the Papacy and it's self imposition as intercessor-"Vicar of Christ"


I don't see how you can say all christian groups are fractions of the Cath. church. The Catholic church was not the first church, nor was it the idea of Christ to have a denominational, authoritative body outside of the Word. I have attended Christian Fellowship where we just study the word period. No trappings, no doctrinal order, no substitute for Christ's body; no statues and no intercessors but Jesus himself. I do not see how this is related to Catholicism?

Jesus never mentioned a need for man to have another intercessor on Earth after he ascended. Peter was his rock, and the rock was to be the foundation for the remaining apostles to spread the gospel over the world.

Originally posted by Tyriffic
Having had a Catholic bible from the old days, I'd agree on the additional books. My recollections of reading Mac. and Baruch were that they were extensions written by old Testament (other) prophets. There has been some debate as to the authenticity though(?)

I think Luther's main objection was that of the Papacy and it's self imposition as intercessor-"Vicar of Christ"


I don't see how you can say all christian groups are fractions of the Cath. church. The Catholic church was not the first church, nor was it the idea of Christ to have a denominational, authoritative body outside of the Word. I have attended Christian Fellowship where we just study the word period. No trappings, no doctrinal order, no substitute for Christ's body; no statues and no intercessors but Jesus himself. I do not see how this is related to Catholicism?

Jesus never mentioned a need for man to have another intercessor on Earth after he ascended. Peter was his rock, and the rock was to be the foundation for the remaining apostles to spread the gospel over the world.

Maybe my comment about most protestant religions being factions form the Cat. Church is too general. What I was meaning is that in the lineage of all things they can be related back to the Catholic church in one way or another. Weather directly or through links with other non-catholic religions. Stating that the bible is or has been Mistranslated by the Catholics, I feels put the non-catholic religions in a predicament, since their translations, are, as I have stated the same or simalar.
Study of the word in my mind presents two problems:- do you take a literal view point or an abstract metaphorical view point. I prefer the latter. And stating that the additional books are probably fakes, well present me with concreate evidence that the whole bible is not fake.

Your last statement also indirectly, holds the catholic argument for the position of the Pope and apostolic succession. Although it cannot be proved beyond a doubt that the pope is in a direct line to St Peter, but hey, what is faith anyway?

Many Catholics don't follow the guidelines laid down by the Pope, to the poius Catholics, they are not true Catholics, but to the Non-catholics they are still reguarded as Catholics.

Hence the saying " Show me a real catholic, and I'll show you a hypocrit."

[Edited on 12-7-2003 by Maddas]