christians SHOULD be persecuted...

so ive seen a lot of christians doing things in regard to defense and persecution that just doesnt seem very christlike. the biggest one is taking guns into church. i figure the one place your god would protect you would be in his own house, if he chose to, and if not that is his will, no?

they seem to forget that christ was a pacifist. they forget the whole "turn the other cheek". they forget how the "meek will inherit the earth". they forget that most of the disciples were executed and never put up a fight. (i figure that if jesus ever said fighting was ok then the disciples would have done it)

"but what about that ONE verse: 'Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.' that right there says we are to arm ourselves!"

they seem to forget the very next verse: Luke 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. "and he was reckoned among the transgressors" is the key part. cant be a transgressor without a weapon. for jesus the swords were props just to fulfill prophesy. btw, the guy that used the sword was scolded and the soldier healed.

so how are christians supposed to handle persecution? with a smile! with acceptance! with joy!

prove it? here is a link to 100 bible verses about persecution: www.openbible.info...

i wont spoil the fun of letting you read them all, but here are a few cherry picked ones:

Matthew 5:10 ESV
“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 6:22 ESV
“Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man!

(this one is a doozy right here)
Romans 12:14
Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.

(another doozy)
Romans 12:17-21 ESV / 441 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

so, according to scripture, a christian is to place all of their faith in their god. they are to accept persecution. they are to trust that their god will see them through, or allow them to die, as is his will. they are not to defend themselves. they are to bless those that accost them trusting the lord will make things right. they are to suffer the persecution just as christ did.

"whatever dude, i aint turning the cheek to no man. ill defend myself. it may be a sin, but im forgiven."

a reply to: stormson

What is your argument then about Jesus telling his disciples to sell their cloak and buy swords (Lk. 27:36)?

This was not a butter knife for their bread or a paring knife for peeling apples. The machaira was, as BDAG (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) defines it, “a relatively short sword or other instrument, sword, dagger,” which is most commonly referenced in the New Testament as an instrument for killing (e.g., Mark 14:43; Luke 21:24; Acts 12:2; 16:27; Heb. 11:37; Rev. 13:10). www.clarkssummitu.edu...

Life is sacred. I am not going to lay down my life if someone comes after me, or anyone else. It is perfectly fine to take guns into church. We live in an earthly realm. God will not intervene unless we ask him to otherwise there is no point of free will.

Jesus is coming back and this time he will be as a Warrior and not as a sheep led to slaughter.

You need to read the Bible and read it in context and understand the words and meanings of the time and not put your own spin onto it.

a reply to: stormson

Christians are persecuted and your OP is a testament to that fact.

Another observation is that I think you're unhinged - but that's just my opinion.

originally posted by: hiddeninsite
a reply to: stormson

What is your argument then about Jesus telling his disciples to sell their cloak and buy swords (Lk. 27:36)?

the very next verse

if you had read the whole post, you would have seen this verse covered. smh

i should read the bible in context? like you didnt by skipping the very next verse?

jesus is coming as a warrior? you know who else thought that? the jews, which is why they rejected him as the mesiah.

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: stormson

Christians are persecuted and your OP is a testament to that fact.

Another observation is that I think you're unhinged - but that's just my opinion.

so you should be happy

"unhinged"? that hurts. you are to repay me in kindness, not be hurtful. how else am i to learn the evils of my ways without you as an example?

a reply to: stormson

What bad things has someone done to you in the name of Christ?

Serious question.

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: stormson

What bad things has someone done to you in the name of Christ?

Serious question.

several things, but i dont consider them christians, so its all good.

i actually like most of the gospel, its faux-christians i dont care for.

the scripture is clear. follow it or dont, but dont preach one thing and do the other. dont disregard major portions just to feed your flesh.

a reply to: stormson

Its ok stormson, i forgive you for being a deuchebag, and i love you brother. God bless you.

be sure to read Acts all the way through ....and that explains the different ways salvation was accomplished....in which era.

and God has given control of this world temporarily to the evil one, the lord of this world till 2024 prolly

a reply to: stormson

a reply to: stormson

You are not understanding the verses.

Jesus was crucified amongst transgressors but was NOT a transgressor. He is telling his disciples to buy a sword because after his death they were to go out and do his same works, however they would now be going out into the rest of the world, ie: not just Jewish households where Jesus and they had always found accommodation/rest/food. Instead they would be going out into a non-believing world of gentiles and would need a sword for their own protection.
This link may help you understand better answersfromthebook.net...

In regards to the meaning of the two swords, it doesn't literally mean two swords. Here is an explanation:
The contextual meaning of the swords

In contrast to the literal interpretation of using swords physically, the following interpretation works smoothly in context so that all the pieces of the puzzle fit together.

First, Jesus reminds the disciples of his mission for them before he arrived in Jerusalem (Luke 9:3; 10:1-17). Did they need a purse, a bag, or extra sandals? No, because people were friendlier, and their opposition to him was spread out over three years. Now, however, he is in Jerusalem, and he has undergone the compacted antagonism of religious leaders seeking to trap him with self-incriminating words. When the authorities are not present, they send their spies. The atmosphere is therefore tense, and the two swords—no more than that—represent the tension. Jesus’ mission has shifted to a clear danger, and the disciples must beware. However, he certainly did not intend for his disciples to use the swords, as we just saw in the literal interpretation, above, for he is about to tell Peter to put away his sword.

Second, "For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’" (Luke 22:37). By far the clearest purpose of the two swords is Jesus’ reference to Isaiah’s prophecy (53:12). He was destined to be arrested like a criminal, put on trial like a criminal, and even crucified like a criminal (but his arrest, trial, and execution were based on false evidence. He did nothing but good.) Yet, he was hung on the cross between two thieves, which is also a fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy (Luke 23:32; 39-43). What are criminals known for carrying with them? Weapons, and to be numbered among criminals, Jesus must also have weapons. That is why he said that only two swords would be enough—to fulfill this prophecy. Also, Matthew mentions fulfilling prophecy (26:54). If Peter had kept on physically using the sword to prevent Christ’s arrest, prophecy would not have been accomplished smoothly and without hindrance. Jesus says that he could call on twelve legions of angels to protect him, meaning he is destined by God to die; he was not permitted to stop even the mighty Roman Empire from fulfilling its role (Matt. 26:53). That is why Jesus told Peter to put his sword back in its place (Matt. 26:52). And in Luke he says to Peter after the disciple cut off an ear, "No more of this!" (22:51).

The third and final nonliteral interpretation says that Jesus frequently used physical objects (seeds, lamps, vineyards, coins, lost sheep and so on) to teach nonphysical, universal truths, and the same is possibly true of the two swords. This interpretation of clarification is supported by Matt. 10:34: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword." As seen in this article on Matt. 10:34, in context he does not mean a physical sword that cuts up and bloodies the family, but a spiritual and moral one that may divide it up nonphysically. And it is precisely Luke who clarifies Jesus’ meaning of "sword" as nonliteral, in the two parallel passages of Matt. 10:34 and Luke 12:51. If Luke does this in 12:51, then why would he not shift slightly the meaning of "sword" in 22:36-38?
www.answering-islam.org...

originally posted by: caterpillage
a reply to: stormson

Its ok stormson, i forgive you for being a deuchebag, and i love you brother. God bless you.

please explain how im a deuchebag? i say something. i researched it. i put my opinion out. if my research was wrong, i wouldnt have written the post.

now im asking for rebuttals, just in case my research was wrong.

did jesus and the disciples advocate violence against persecution? or did they advocate acceptance?

You do know that only God can judge the heart of another man, right?

I get that you have very clear beliefs on what is and is not Christian, and that's all fine. You follow Christ in the way you feel called to.

But it's not your place to decide that way is the way and judge others according. Only He sits in the judgment seat and decides who is and who is not going to hell or heaven, right?

I’m more of a Revelations type guy (it’s by far my favorite and I read it, or listen to it all the time) and Jesus kicks ass in that book! Now let’s break some seals.

originally posted by: hiddeninsite
a reply to: stormson

You are not understanding the verses.

Jesus was crucified amongst transgressors but was NOT a transgressor. He is telling his disciples to buy a sword because after his death they were to go out and do his same works, however they would now be going out into the rest of the world, ie: not just Jewish households where Jesus and they had always found accommodation/rest/food. Instead they would be going out into a non-believing world of gentiles and would need a sword for their own protection.
This link may help you understand better answersfromthebook.net...

...

...


...

Second, "For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’" (Luke 22:37). By far the clearest purpose of the two swords is Jesus’ reference to Isaiah’s prophecy (53:12). He was destined to be arrested like a criminal, put on trial like a criminal, and even crucified like a criminal (but his arrest, trial, and execution were based on false evidence. He did nothing but good.) Yet, he was hung on the cross between two thieves, which is also a fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy (Luke 23:32; 39-43). What are criminals known for carrying with them? Weapons, and to be numbered among criminals, Jesus must also have weapons. That is why he said that only two swords would be enough—to fulfill this prophecy. Also, Matthew mentions fulfilling prophecy (26:54). If Peter had kept on physically using the sword to prevent Christ’s arrest, prophecy would not have been accomplished smoothly and without hindrance. Jesus says that he could call on twelve legions of angels to protect him, meaning he is destined by God to die; he was not permitted to stop even the mighty Roman Empire from fulfilling its role (Matt. 26:53). That is why Jesus told Peter to put his sword back in its place (Matt. 26:52). And in Luke he says to Peter after the disciple cut off an ear, "No more of this!" (22:51).

...

Second, "For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless’" (Luke 22:37). By far the clearest purpose of the two swords is Jesus’ reference to Isaiah’s prophecy (53:12). He was destined to be arrested like a criminal, put on trial like a criminal, and even crucified like a criminal (but his arrest, trial, and execution were based on false evidence. He did nothing but good.) Yet, he was hung on the cross between two thieves, which is also a fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy (Luke 23:32; 39-43). What are criminals known for carrying with them? Weapons, and to be numbered among criminals, Jesus must also have weapons. That is why he said that only two swords would be enough—to fulfill this prophecy.

this part directly contradicts your opening. no where does it say jesus is planning for the future after the arrest, but for the arrest itself to be in accordance with prophesy. he needed to swords to set the stage and nothing more.

the disciples did not fight or defend themselves after jesus, as far as i know. that shows that they must have misinterpreted as well the need for the swords.

as for bring the sword part, i agree. he was directly telling his followers that they would face persecution from all aspects of society, even their own families.

originally posted by: stormson

originally posted by: caterpillage
a reply to: stormson

Its ok stormson, i forgive you for being a deuchebag, and i love you brother. God bless you.

please explain how im a deuchebag? i say something. i researched it. i put my opinion out. if my research was wrong, i wouldnt have written the post.

now im asking for rebuttals, just in case my research was wrong.

did jesus and the disciples advocate violence against persecution? or did they advocate acceptance?

Sometimes its not what you're saying, but how your saying it. You come across as a pompous accusatory ass. You don't seem to be looking for discussion so much as you seem to think you have found a supreme "gotcha" moment to put christians firmly in their place.

Maybe you are a pure thinking soul who really just means nothing but good intentions by this thread, and i am firmly off base here. If so i am very sorry.

But i doubt it.

a reply to: stormson

Only once does Christ’s command a sword, not to all but His trusted disciples
For this Jesus was tried for a crime that would instigate a death sentence
It was a plan, Jesus knew of His death, treason, having a weapon

Apart from this one act, where Jesus incidentally healed the servant of the Pharisees, Romans, who was slashed, the enemy, the soldiers sent to arrest Jesus, Jesus never ever advocated violence
but, you
No, one sword and you suggest Christians arm and kill?

Everything else points to love and forgiveness

Then, you condemn others for taking guns to,church, deny their freewill, their right to practice their faith as they seem fit

Christians should accept and love each other, differences yes.
I bet some Christians hate Trump, some love him, some support the “eagles” others the “dockers”, some, the lesser Christians may even be “pie” fans
We are not all the same and we shouldn’t be, there is nothing wrong with diversity, we can get along
Should christians kill each other over differences of theology, is that what you advocate?

originally posted by: caterpillage

originally posted by: stormson

originally posted by: caterpillage
a reply to: stormson

Its ok stormson, i forgive you for being a deuchebag, and i love you brother. God bless you.

please explain how im a deuchebag? i say something. i researched it. i put my opinion out. if my research was wrong, i wouldnt have written the post.

now im asking for rebuttals, just in case my research was wrong.

did jesus and the disciples advocate violence against persecution? or did they advocate acceptance?

Sometimes its not what you're saying, but how your saying it. You come across as a pompous accusatory ass. You don't seem to be looking for discussion so much as you seem to think you have found a supreme "gotcha" moment to put christians firmly in their place.

Maybe you are a pure thinking soul who really just means nothing but good intentions by this thread, and i am firmly off base here. If so i am very sorry.

But i doubt it.

for the most part, you got me. i was a bit snarky, as i was trying to inject a bit of humor. i was also trying to inflame and get the ball rolling, as ive seen that works on numerous post from others (perhaps i have yet to master that skill)

thats also the purpose of the last line, to cut off simplistic answers.

however, the topic is actually quite serious.

a reply to: hiddeninsite

I think it's an American form of Christianity, it's a militant mentality that has been born out of the quest for personal freedom. It's wrapped up in national patriotism. The earth is not our home as Larry Norman use to say.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: stormson

Only once does Christ’s command a sword, not to all but His trusted disciples
For this Jesus was tried for a crime that would instigate a death sentence
It was a plan, Jesus knew of His death, treason, having a weapon

Apart from this one act, where Jesus incidentally healed the servant of the Pharisees, Romans, who was slashed, the enemy, the soldiers sent to arrest Jesus, Jesus never ever advocated violence
but, you
No, one sword and you suggest Christians arm and kill?

Everything else points to love and forgiveness

Then, you condemn others for taking guns to,church, deny their freewill, their right to practice their faith as they seem fit

Christians should accept and love each other, differences yes.
I bet some Christians hate Trump, some love him, some support the “eagles” others the “dockers”, some, the lesser Christians may even be “pie” fans
We are not all the same and we shouldn’t be, there is nothing wrong with diversity, we can get along
Should christians kill each other over differences of theology, is that what you advocate?

actually, there should be no difference of opinion, as its all laid out in the book.

"should christians kill each other..." is the very point of this post! christians should not kill! they should follow their faith in humility trusting god will sort it out. if they get slapped, or assaulted, or tortured, or killed because of their faith they should accept it with a happy heart proving to their god that they trust him! its right there in black and white (sometimes red if you have the red letter edition)

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: hiddeninsite

I think it's an American form of Christianity, it's a militant mentality that has been born out of the quest for personal freedom. It's wrapped up in national patriotism. The earth is not our home as Larry Norman use to say.

i completely agree with this.

christianity isnt about political revolution by violent means. its more of a "show, dont tell" type of religion. a christian is supposed to set a good example and bring people in by showing how the chrisitian god is better than the other gods. how the christian god will defend and avenge his followers if they have faith.

how can i believe that your god will defend/avenge me if you bring a gun into his house? what kind of example are you setting if you turn you back on numerous scriptures telling you to rejoice in persecution?