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Demon's Guards?

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posted on Apr, 3 2005 @ 11:04 PM
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Vash,

Lilth, well yes, a little, wasn’t she the woman married to Frazer on Cheers?
All right, The Bible make any mean of Lilth. It seems to be meld of folk lore and mistranslation of words.

Here is some information from the web. As you have touched on a subject I know little about.
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Alphabet of Ben Sirah, ( A jew from the middle ages)

When God created Adam, he was lonely, so God created Lilith from the same dust from which Adam was molded. But they quarrelled; Adam [the proverbial domineering male] wished to rule over Lilith. But Lilith [a militant feminist] was also proud and willful, claiming equality with Adam because she was created from the same dust. She left Adam and fled the Garden. God sent three angels in pursuit of Lilith. They caught
her and ordered her to return to Adam. She refused, and said that she would henceforth weaken and kill little children, infants and babes. The angels overpowered her, and she promised that if the mother hung an amulet over the baby bearing the names of the three angels, she would stay away from that home. So they let her go, and God created Eve to be Adam's mate [created from Adam's rib, so that she couldn't claim equality]. And ever since, Lilith flies around the world, howling her hatred of mankind through the night, and vowing vengeance because of the shabby treatment she had received from Adam. She is also called "The Howling One."

You can see how this legend could lead to various interpretations, depending on whether you think she is noble (in rebelling against male domination) or evil (in vowing vengeance against innocent babies.)

But where does this legend come from? The author of Ben Sirah basically wove together three separate threads from centuries earlier works, because Lilith is a very ancient legend.

Let's start with the Bible as primary source material. Genesis of course mentions Adam and Eve, but -- please note -- doesn't mention Lilith. The idea of Lilith as a "prior first woman" before Eve arises much later. The only reference to Lilith in the Bible (Old or New Testaments) is Isaiah 34:14, probably written around 540 BC; it's a description of desolation, jackals and ravens among nettles and briers, etc.: "Goat demons shall greet each other; there too the lilith will repose." Most of the other creatures referenced in this poetry cannot be positively identified. The KJV, following the Vulgate, translates "the lilith" as "the night demon," confusing the lili- with the Hebrew word for night. But presumably Isaiah meant some sort of demon.

The notion of a lilith as a demon is probably Assyrian (say around 700 BC), incorporated into Isaiah by way of the ancient Israelite contacts with the mythologies of Babylonia and Chaldea. The Assyrians had three female demons, Lilit, Lilu,and Ardat Lilit. There's little doubt that the Hebrew lilith-demon mentioned in Isaiah was a folkloric adaptation of the Assyrian demons.

Several hundred years after Isaiah, we find Talmudic writings that describe Lilith (now as a named demon, rather than a broad category) as an irresistibly seductive she-demon with long hair (presumably worn loose, a sure sign of wantonness) and wings. Terey wants us to be sure to say that she's a succubus. She seduces unwary men, then savagely kills the children she bears for them.

From this, she becomes the demon responsible for the death of babies. In ancient times, one needed to protect against such demons; today, we blame other factors for the death of infants. To guard against Lilith, superstitious Jews would hang four amulets, one on the wall of each room of a newborn babe, with the inscription "Lilith - abi!" ["Lilith - begone!"] which some think is the origin, much later, of the English word "lullaby."

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The modern idea of Lilth is the champion of women, nothing further could be the case. This is a result of “individualism” a type of thinking which is hard to explain here, but believes each person is an island unto themselves vs. personhood, which believes we are all connected to each other by spirit, love. That them more we live in God’s grace the more love we have between each other, the closer we grow.

When, God made Eve he did so out of Adam rib, rather then dust of the ground, why? Too show we are all of the same flesh, we are one race of people, your flesh is the very same as my flesh. There is no difference between it. Woman means hidden man, woman is really just part of man, thus man is not greater or lesser than woman, anymore than my legs are greater or lesser than my arms. God created man and women to be together in love. He created them to be a perfect match, in every way, for love’s sake. After the fall he put enmity between man and woman, so each of us could find humility, and not raise up against each other as they did in the Garden. Eve was deceived, where Adam was disobedient. Eve ate of the fruit first because she wanted have power over Adam by partaking of “godhood” first this is why she did not discuss it with him until she ate. Adam had been told not to eat of the tree by God personally, Eve had not, Adam then ate of the fruit, thus failed in protecting Eve. The Bible says that after Adam ate “and their eyes were open” showing that Adam and Eve were connected, Eve’s eyes were not opened until Adam ate, then both of them were “aware”.

If someone wants a Champion, then look no further than the Holy Virgin Mary, she up every desire of her own to serve God, selflessness. God then blessed her with the greatest joys of the world. He gave her motherhood, yet she remains a virgin. She has the most wonderful son any mother could want. She is able to partake in the saving of the whole world, she is the champion of virtues, the down fall of demons, the hope of the hopeless, she is a true hero.

Take care,




posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 12:51 AM
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hmm seems you do kwnoa bit about it but why whoudl they take thigns fmo the bible or add things or do what they wanted to it?


thats the odd thing man was wrong to write the bible i belive well any how



posted on Apr, 5 2005 @ 03:00 AM
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Why Vash,

What ever do you mean? I do not belive anything has been removed or taken away in general, untill resently, some of the modern translations are quite bad.

Now Lilth is just a old wives tale, from many differant tradtions.

So I do not quite know what you mean?



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by Balaams donkey
Why Vash,

What ever do you mean? I do not belive anything has been removed or taken away in general, untill resently, some of the modern translations are quite bad.

Now Lilth is just a old wives tale, from many differant tradtions.

So I do not quite know what you mean?


what i mean is all the storyes in the bible are just that storys told to kids to make them belive in some thing its all not real fake a way to preservie some ppls storys and legends of that time



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 09:42 PM
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Originally posted by Vash
what i mean is all the storyes in the bible are just that storys told to kids to make them belive in some thing its all not real fake a way to preservie some ppls storys and legends of that time


War, plagues, famine, death, Hell, crucifixion...were you told these kinds of stories you were told to as a kid? I'm more than two decades old (not saying any more than that) and it can be a very tough read conceptually and spiritually sometimes. I feel bad for the 9 year old who's given the Book and asked to read up on some 'entertaining stories'.

If they seem fake, test them to find proof.

[edit on 6-4-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 6 2005 @ 11:50 PM
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Vash,

I'm shocked! To this day nothing in the Bible has ever been proven wrong. Everything that is mentioned has been found, The True cross, the nail which pierced His hands, The burning bush on Mt. Sinai, The ark of the covenant, the relics of saints the gush myrrh, incorrupt saints bodies, The arm of St. Mary Magdalene is on Mt. Athos, it is incorrupt and body temperature. 98.6 in a cool room. The found the city of Sodom and Gomorra it was burned at a temperature of over 5000 degrees that is not possible without a hydrogen bomb. I have personally see some of these things and more!

It is the only book like it and it has never been proven wrong about anything. What makes you think it is a story book? What kid could read that book?



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 10:32 AM
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I am really interested in this and have an idea, not a great one, but one nonethelss. If you can communicate with them, can you not use them for good. Ask them to help people, attack, terrorists etc. Become sort of a superhero, with a constantine type flair for demons. Just an idea, probably not plausible but worth a try perhaps.



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 11:19 AM
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I'll use the word "you" to whoever this applies to. Correct me if I'm off course Balaam's Donkey, seems you have more 1st hand experience than I have.


Originally posted by supes_17
I am really interested in this and have an idea, not a great one, but one nonethelss. If you can communicate with them, can you not use them for good.


They'll do tricks I'm sure to convince you their motives are in fact good. Maybe in fact 'do' a little good in order to net some evil either unseen or later on.


Originally posted by supes_17
Ask them to help people,


Perhaps they will to get on your 'good' side.


Originally posted by supes_17
attack,


That's like asking a drug addict if they want a hit. Of course they do!


Originally posted by supes_17
terrorists etc.


I don't think 'who' is any concern of theirs. They'll attack to attack.


Originally posted by supes_17
Become sort of a superhero,


They'll empower you I'm sure. That'll pull you closer to them and that's exactly what they want.


Originally posted by supes_17
with a constantine type flair for demons. Just an idea, probably not plausible but worth a try perhaps.


I didn't mean command them, I meant question them. Find out information so you can uncover motive. Commanding them (invoke or evoke) is what they want so that you feel more powerful and 'in charge'. This is the trap. I'm only bringing it up because I don't want to see you fall in the way I've been with others when they fell. It's very painful and sometimes they never get back up.

Pray, train, study.
God bless.


[edit on 7-4-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 01:52 PM
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Right Saint,

Yeah, dealing with demons is like a teenage girl going to a pimp for help. It is going to end up bad. Sure they will give you powers that you can do "good" with, but that is not they goal. They are just doing that until they can take you over for their own use. They have no more love for you, or your cause than you have for a piece of used gum. Their "kindness" is just a means to an ends.

Vash,

Have you ever read the book of Tobit? You can find it the 1611 King James Version. It is about a young girl who was "protected" by a demon. Quite a story. The Protestants took it out.


In fact you can listen to some of it on my internet radio show.

www.live365.com/stations/tobit



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by Balaams donkey
Have you ever read the book of Tobit? You can find it the 1611 King James Version. It is about a young girl who was "protected" by a demon. Quite a story. The Protestants took it out.


Or, if you prefer to read it:
Book of Tobit



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 03:37 PM
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I'm gonna read up on it when I have some more time. I don't think I'm at risk of worshipping angels, which is why I imagine this was taken out. From what I understand it was a problem with some churches at that time. I'm thinking in this case it may have some helpful insight.



posted on Apr, 7 2005 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by Balaams donkey
Vash,
I'm shocked! To this day nothing in the Bible has ever been proven wrong.


*coughs*

Except that PI>3. Just off the top of my head, but some measurements in the bible must be wrong. :-P

I'm sorry for the suddent stop in the freewill thread. I just felt that this was a hijacking of a different topic. Perhaps we can start a new thread for it?



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 03:50 AM
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Except that PI>3.


Gasp! Defend yourself man! What is this thing you say? Where does the Bible say pi is greater than 3 or not? Check carefully good sir, as I have no quarrel with thee, lest I be forced, to confront thee on the field of honor. I am quite sure, you will not find any such thing, as others may have told you this, and have belived so by blind faith? The line is drawn......

Yes free will would be better in another thread, but alas, every one will attack me...for only a few men of long ago stand with me on this wisdom, but I am ready....perpare my fingers.

Saint,

The Protestants took out 11 books, that had been there for 1600 years, plus the the time before Christ. Tobit never says or even teaches in anyway the worship of angels. But, it does teach us how demons operate. Once more all 11 are in the 1611, they remained for over 3 years. Go ahead read it, see what a great book it and the others are, if any book could be taken out it might be songs of solomon? eh? not Tobit. I am not suggesting, just making a point.

Raphael_UO

Thanks for the link!



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 03:54 AM
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That is a funny tale Baalam. So according to the tales, Adam lost his first wife Lilith to idealism and then lost his second wife, eve, to a snake.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Can you picture it, Satan in tow with Lilith on one side and Eve on the other, while Adam is stuck with the sheeps and other farm animals.


[edit on 8-4-2005 by IComeWithASword]



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 05:15 AM
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IComeWithASword,

yeah it is funny the way you put it....glad it is not true...



posted on Apr, 8 2005 @ 06:28 AM
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Originally posted by Balaams donkey
Saint,

The Protestants took out 11 books, that had been there for 1600 years, plus the the time before Christ. Tobit never says or even teaches in anyway the worship of angels.


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it did. It's just that a lot of people were so fixated on the idea and details of angels and demons that they became the central focus of study which eventually led to worship. Sects of mysticism started splintering off from the church but trying to bear the name Christian. I'm not attributing it to the book itself.

Now I wasn't there when this happened, so if my history is off, feel free to correct.


Originally posted by Balaams donkey
But, it does teach us how demons operate.


I've just glanced at it, but seems that way *nods*.


Originally posted by Balaams donkey
Once more all 11 are in the 1611, they remained for over 3 years. Go ahead read it, see what a great book it and the others are,


Sure, will do. I think I may have read a good deal of excerpts from a lot of them, but I think it'll be healthy to catch up.


Originally posted by Balaams donkey
if any book could be taken out it might be songs of solomon? eh? not Tobit. I am not suggesting, just making a point.


Hehe, I never really got a handle on that book other than to say 'for the sake of tradition, let's sing!" But one thing I can say is it does show a softer side of the Old Testament. Peeps complain much about 'war' and 'fear of God' in the OT, so I guess they just skip over books like Songs of Solomon.


[edit on 8-4-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 9 2005 @ 01:58 PM
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i come with sword

yea that whoudl be a good thing whoudlent it but i do belive lilth slept with demons not sure



posted on Apr, 9 2005 @ 05:41 PM
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Gasp! Defend yourself man! What is this thing you say? Where does the Bible say pi is greater than 3 or not?



*draws a long breath*

Okay.

Let's review geometry first, an an important equation of a circle:

Circumference = PI * Diameter.

Next, to make things crystal clear, we can all pretty much assume that 1 Kings 7:23 is not meant in metaphor or allegory, and it states,

"And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."

Thus, we know we are talking about a circle, that passage gives us two key references.

1. The diameter (10 cubits).
2. The circumference (30 cubits).

Let's plug these values into our equation and solve for PI.

30 = PI * 10 => 30/10 = PI => 3 = PI.

Therefore, we have authors who are inspired by an all knowing God suggesting that PI equals 3. And before folks go to defend this and/or post from literalist websites, let's consider these notes:

1. To say the bible could not give the exact value of PI because PI does not have a known ending is false; while it would take enternity to write all of PI, the bible does not directly mention PI. That is, its measurements are incorrect, not necessarily its value of PI. We can give (in finite terms) measurements that will give us a correct corresponding value of PI.

2. To say that the authors rounded is adding words to the author's text. The author does not say "estimated, rounded, etc." The author says specifically what the measurements are. Moreover, we have evidence of societies having better standards of measurements (that could give more precise values of PI) thus, it was not outside of the bible (God's?) capability.

So, in reality, we have a few options:

*The measurements were incorrect.
*It wasn't really round.
*The bible isn't inspired by God.
*God isn't all knowing.

Ironically, all four options would show the bible being incorrect at least once. QED



posted on Apr, 9 2005 @ 06:49 PM
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I tought I wpuld throw my 2 cents. (cough)!-lol.

First off vash, if you really have demons with or on your person.

Get help, quickly might I add!

Theres alot of info which is very far from the truth from what I have read. The bible, as Im aware is a book that has been updated to what man prefers to read.

As for the other info on this thread, research is always a good thing.



posted on Apr, 10 2005 @ 05:02 AM
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Thank you Dog,

Your saying the Bible is in error because of this verse?
1 Kings 7:23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

That is could not have been God speaking, because the mathematics are all wrong, thus is the Bible is a myth? Hmmmm, would the reverse of that be true? If this verse is right, and they had no knowledge of PI, yet it is included in these verses, than it had to have been God? Right? If you want to play, you must except truth were you find it. Let begin.

Well even if a review of geometry was unnecessary, it is always good to start a the bottom and work up. This is, quite a fine line you are trying to prove, 3.0 vs. 3.14, So you are saying the Bible should have said 31.4 cubits in circumference rather than 30 cubits. Now if a cubit is roughly 18" than a difference of 15 inches on 47. 1 feet or about 2%. Have you ever given rough measurement?

1 Kings 7:26 And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two thousand baths.

Was the hand breadth on the inside of 30 cubits or on the outside of 10 cubits, who knows. So maybe it was 10 less a hand or maybe not? Does the bible ever give tenths of cubits for measurements?
Lets read, on as this whole chapter seven is instruction on how to build a tub. Kind of like when you get that bookshelf at the store and all the boys show up to help, and no one reads the instructions? There's bound to be a bit of confusion?

The first measurement is for the brim, 10 cubits brim to brim, the second measurement for the tank it self, 30 cubits round.
Remember it said the brim is like lip of a cup, juts outward? Why would God give two measurement for the same thing? Your thinking this is the case does not make much sense. The brim flares out at the top. Remember 10 cubits is the measurement for the brim, not the vessel. So we have nice instructions for a pretty flared tank, rather than an ugly straight walled one. the next issue.

1 Kings 7:24 And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about: the knops were cast in two rows, when it was cast.

See how it says under the brim, not on the side of the tank? Now if you do not have a pretty flared tank then how do you get all of those knops upon it?

Brim: A projecting rim or edge: the brim of a hat.

How’s that? Pretty fancy basin, with a nice brim, makes it nice to lean on when washing, no sharp edges, and all. However, you know you could have really fooled some folks into not believing in God with that question? Tricky tricky. You seem well studied in the Bible to have found that. It seems interesting to me that you spotted that and missed all the miracles and wisdom. Because, if there is a God and you fool someone out of believing and they go to hell you would feel bad, right? Of, course you would, so don’t you think you might want to be careful about all this? Because if you are not, then you might be a hot dog.




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