Demon's Guards?

G'day Donkey,

First, free action and free will are two different things.
...
Our, free will is not bound by action, but action is bond by our surroundings, have many people, have the will to leave prison, but are bond by jail.
...
So, to think we could end the end of the world, by wishing it away, is silly, as we cannot even wish away a cold. Believe me, I have tried.

Let's consider this:

1. For most of God's predictions, there must exist a series of human events for a given prediction to become true.
2. God must not be wrong, so those series of human events must occur.

Now, has God made us in such a way where we are physically unable to change our actions in order to disrupt these physical events? Supposing the antichrist will exist, and is human (we know he will be), then he has freewill. According to your careful distinction, the antichrist can wish not to be in his role, but at the same time be physically impossible to change it.

Does this make sense? The antichrist could want to kill himself but would not be physically able to. The antichrist could want to be a great christian, but would be physically unable to. With these possibilies in mind, can we really say the antichrist is such an evil person? For all we know, he may be physically unable to stop his actions despite his wish to do so. A prisoner to God's propechy.

Radardog,
1) Are you now or have you been an Atheist?

I am an atheist. However, I don't consider myself rabid -- I like to be thoughtful.

2) Please tell me why you think Angels have no free will, how did you come upon this knowledge? If angels have free will then, your understanding will have to change, will it not? As this, seems to be the force of your argument.

There are many things that support my idea that angels do not have freewill. Let me list a few of them:

(A) Psalms 148:2
God and his Angels (showing ownership)
(B) Psalms 103:20-21
God and his Angels. Angels do God's word. Angels heed to God.
(C) 1 Peter 3: 22.
Angels are subject to God.

Many people want to claim scripture such as Jude 1:6 show the angels having freewill; however, such scripture is generally vague. Either it assumes angels have freewill because they have done something thought to be evil, or it assumes God didn't command them to do the act in the first place. We can see without assumption according to scripture that angels are firmly placed in God's control.

Hippolytus of Rome:
To the same effect is the word of Isaiah, "I, the Lord, make peace, and create evil;"(1) meaning by that, I maintain peace, and permit war.

It is a bit ironic that Hippolytus isn't consistent. Why not, "I, the Lord, permit peace and permit war?"

Origen Against Celsus:
... I am well aware that those who would daringly assert that these evils were created by God will quote certain expressions of Scripture (in their support), because we are not able to show one consistent series(10) of passages; for although Scripture (generally) blames the wicked and approves of the righteous, it nevertheless contains some statements which, although comparatively(11) few in number, seem to disturb the minds of ignorant readers of holy Scripture.

In other words, Origen suggests just ignoring such evidence because God has created so many more good things worth mentioning. That is, Origen doesn't refute it.

Tertullian:
I mean, who says, "I am He who make peace and create evil,"(3)--that is, war, for that is the antithesis of peace.

A better rendering of one verse, but doesn't touch any others. However, if the christian God is a God that creates war, that is something interesting indeed.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem:
...
But the wise Archelaus undermined his blasphemous argument by saying, "If the God of the Old Testament, as thou sayest, calls Himself a fire, whose Son is He who saith, I came to send fire on the earth(8)? If thou findest fault with Him who saith, The Lord killeth, and maketh alive(9), why dost thou honour Peter, who raised up Tabitha, but struck Sapphira dead?

Ah, the old, "oh yeah?! Well if your argument is right, then why do you honor Peter?!" Not a good argument against an atheist.

5) Now, are you here to spread Atheism or are you honestly asking questions to learn the truth.

I am not a preacher of atheism. I'm always interested in truth.

6) Do you believe in an absolute truth?

Yes.

Let's consider this: 1. For most of God's predictions, there must exist a series of human events for a given prediction to become true. 2. God must not be wrong, so those series of human events must occur. Now, has God made us in such a way where we are physically unable to change our actions in order to disrupt these physical events? Supposing the antichrist will exist, and is human (we know he will be), then he has freewill. According to your careful distinction, the antichrist can wish not to be in his role, but at the same time be physically impossible to change it. Does this make sense? The antichrist could want to kill himself but would not be physically able to. The antichrist could want to be a great christian, but would be physically unable to. With these possibilies in mind, can we really say the antichrist is such an evil person? For all we know, he may be physically unable to stop his actions despite his wish to do so. A prisoner to God's propechy.

Dog!
It's me Donkey, G'day, to ye.

Well, it is a pleasure to have a discussion with someone who is intellectually honest and polite. It will be a pleasure to discuss each and every point with you. I believe, I can say that we can have an enjoyable point by point discussion on this subject. I would like to reduce the discussion so it will be easier for the both of us and the other readers to follow. After we beat a point about, and make decision, we can to move to the next point.

Welcome tonights fight, In this corner, weighing 65lbs, have large canines, lighting speed, and a mighty bite, and sporting a energy transmitter, Raaaaddddaarrr Doggggg! The crowd cheers madly. Annnndd in this corner weighing 863 lbs, having long ears, and long legs, and steel shoes, the former champion of Balaam the sorcerer, Balllllaaammms Donkeeeeyyyy! Crowd claps mildly, some throw carrots.

The referee:
All right boys, I will list out the points, as best I can. If you do not like the order or points we can make arrangements, till you agree. You both know the rules so, lets have a clean fight boys. Happy, beating the life out of each other, in a sportsman like way.

The points of contention seem to be:

a) Does free will exist
b) If free will exists, Does free will deign Gods ability to foreordain and foreknow the future.
c) If free will does not exist, then how can man be responsible for his actions
d) Is there a God
e) Is the Bible the word of God

Ding!

1)Here come Donkey, he looks a bit clumsy, eh,
2)Yes, he does but he has mean kick, if he gets a hold of Dog with those hooves it could be real trouble for Dog.
1) How is going to deal with Dogs speed, and energy transmitter?
2) I don't know, it going be a real climb.
1)Well Donkeys got going to try to prove free will exists, that God still knows the future, even with freewill, and that man is responsible for his actions, it going to be one heck of a fight.
2) Here comes Dog, Oh! Man, Dog got him in leg, with a

“1. For most of God's predictions, there must exist a series of human events for a given prediction to become true.
2. God must not be wrong, so those series of human events must occur.”

1) Wow! That’s got to hurt!
2) Wait Donkeys, still standing, he shook it off, and he’s coming back, at Dog. I can’t look.

Dog, it is a question of power, if mans free will is equal in power to Gods, then you are correct, but when we look, it is seen that freewill does not contain the same power as does God. God can create, everything, trees, bees, birds, and such, whereas, man can create nothing, yes he can build things, out of creation, but not create something from nothing. So in the question of power, God would completely unopposed, by man, and if he is unopposed, then he can be in total control of creation. Don’t you agree, Sir Dog? Assuming, God of course.

Nice enjoyable read Balaam's donkey! I'm enjoying the boxing match scene you've painted.

I'm not trying to double team, just consider me shouting from ringside

Originally posted by radardog
2) Please tell me why you think Angels have no free will, how did you come upon this knowledge?

It's an impression I've had from reading them in the Bible situationally and based on one I had a conversation with. God could've been speaking through him verbatim I suppose but usually get answering in a different way when being direct from God.

Originally posted by radardog
If angels have free will then, your understanding will have to change, will it not?

Sure. It doesn't alter my belief in God. It's a minor point really to where I'd sit back and go "oh, that's interesting. hm...."

Originally posted by radardog
There are many things that support my idea that angels do not have freewill. Let me list a few of them:

(A) Psalms 148:2
God and his Angels (showing ownership)

Yes, he does own His angels. No dispute there. That's a good song too! When are they going to put Psalms to techno music? Christianity seems to be hurting a little bit for good dance and trip-hop music. It's changing slowly though - Newsboys put out a cd called Remixed. It's pretty kickin'.

Originally posted by radardog
(B) Psalms 103:20-21
God and his Angels. Angels do God's word. Angels heed to God.

His servants do his will true, the question I have reading the Bible is 'What else do they do'? Because apparently them making out with earth girls caused quite a problem.

Originally posted by radardog
(C) 1 Peter 3: 22.
Angels are subject to God.

"Authorities and powers in submission to him" it says. Good one! Yes, I believe He's the boss. No arguments here either.

Originally posted by radardog
We can see without assumption according to scripture that angels are firmly placed in God's control.

Originally posted by radardog

Hippolytus of Rome:
To the same effect is the word of Isaiah, "I, the Lord, make peace, and create evil;"(1) meaning by that, I maintain peace, and permit war.

It is a bit ironic that Hippolytus isn't consistent. Why not, "I, the Lord, permit peace and permit war?"

In both cases the word 'permit' is being used....just as a parent I permit my child to do something wrong (after I told her not to) so she can learn from it, yes? It's a taching method if it doesn't cause her injury or trauma. Sometimes we just gotta learn the hard way. Another thing Christians believe is death in this life is not the end.

The other quotes seem to branch off from the angel topic except for the one saying God created good and evil. There are many cases in the Old Testament where God says Israel is going to get blitz for messing things up again. Well, that's what it says, who am I to argue? Why would he do this? Growth experience. James 1:2 (ooh I love this quote!). I've done my best not to quote the Bible unless specifically discussing the text or to other Christians, but do hope it's looked at. It's quickly becoming one of my favorites.

[edit on 31-3-2005 by saint4God]

While I have had a horse chase me once, I've never had a donkey chase me.

So in the question of power, God would completely unopposed, by man, and if he is unopposed, then he can be in total control of creation. Don’t you agree, Sir Dog? Assuming, God of course.

I can not say I agree. Assuming some general understanding of christianity is true, then God's power is lacking in one area: God can not (without causing contradiction) throw away our freewill. In other words, God created us as entities with freewill, however can not control our minds. We see specifically in the bible that God created us with freewill -- we see no such reference for angels. We probably do not see such a reference for good reason.

That is unless you're a calvinist; some calvinists claim even men do not have freewill.

Saint,

I think you are arguing under the impression of, 'because angels have been noted to do bad things, they must have free will in some cases because God would not have commanded it.' However, what have we seen God do? We have seen God kill adults, women, and children (especially in the OT), impregnate virgins, allow his beloved son to die, command men to kill other men, command women to kill their children, etc.

Please note that I am not saying all of this to say the (mostly OT) chistian God is obviously evil, just that these acts are not beyond God's mindframe and ability. Angels, being specifically in God's command, have been noted of doing these things, just as God has.

Originally posted by radardog
Saint,

I think you are arguing under the impression of, 'because angels have been noted to do bad things, they must have free will in some cases because God would not have commanded it.'

It could be that it was God commanded however, why would God command it, get angry then wipe everything out in a flood? This is the part that isn't making sense. If we say angels do have free will, then it makes sense. For me so far, God has ended up making sense in His Word. That's the reasoning behind my approach anyway *shrug*.

Originally posted by radardog
However, what have we seen God do? We have seen God kill adults, women, and children (especially in the OT), impregnate virgins, allow his beloved son to die, command men to kill other men, command women to kill their children, etc.

All these things made sense after reading shortly after those events. There was a reason to it, which He told us. He's not trying to confuse us in His messages. He's the God of truth, wisdom and understanding. We're the ones that jam our fingers in our ears and say "LA LA LA LA! I can't hear you!"

Originally posted by radardog
Please note that I am not saying all of this to say the (mostly OT) chistian God is obviously evil, just that these acts are not beyond God's mindframe and ability. Angels, being specifically in God's command, have been noted of doing these things, just as God has.

I'm not arrogant, thinking I can understand God's ways when He doesn't wish to explain them, however I know He has explained things when they didn't seem to make sense at the time.

[edit on 31-3-2005 by saint4God]

saint4God,

The christian God did odd things like that all of the time. An example that most people joke around about is this:

God allowed his only son to die in order to save humans from a judgement that he himself would make. However, according to the trinity, God's son is also God, so in other words can say ...

An immortal, all knowing God killed himself while being his own son in order to save people from a being he stop if he wished. Or on the cross, Jesus cries out to God (himself) and asked why he had forsaken himself.

I know this is a rather crude rendering of the trinity concept, but you can see where things can not make sense at first glance.

Originally posted by radardog
saint4God,

The christian God did odd things like that all of the time. An example that most people joke around about is this:

God allowed his only son to die in order to save humans from a judgement that he himself would make. However, according to the trinity, God's son is also God, so in other words can say ...

An immortal, all knowing God killed himself while being his own son in order to save people from a being he stop if he wished. Or on the cross, Jesus cries out to God (himself) and asked why he had forsaken himself.

I know this is a rather crude rendering of the trinity concept, but you can see where things can not make sense at first glance.

Right, one would have to examine the reasoning behind why God would do something like this to Himself. The answer? A lot of what God does is to show us things so we learn and grow. We tend to 'not get it' when we're told straight-up. This was known as the Old Testament. So, in an effort to solidify a little bit the why's and how's of the whole situation, He does the human-form thing because apparently this is the best way we know how to relate. An excellent series of discussions in person and off He goes again but this time carrying with Him the sin we were supposed to be carrying, instead of striking us down where we stand. That made a lightbulb go off in our heads going, "wait, why did He die for me? That makes no sense." Then "oh yeah!", we get it. We're supposed to learn from the experience and change while still alive here. Then, after we've figured it out, tell everyone we know to help them out too. Why didn't God surgically implant our brains with this info instead of going through this actual experience? Because He didn't make robots, He made humans with the power to make a choice. He wants us to do some of the work in this relationship. For those who are foreign to this concept, get married, you'll see .

P.S. The 'my God, my God, why have you forsaken me' was a hymn, to which someone in the crowd realized "he's calling on God!". Ding, another lightbulb. Read the rest of that Psalm 22:1, it's one of enduring trials. I think it's pretty impressive. Later on it goes, "They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn - for he has done it." So the song ends, "he has done it" which means "it is finished"? Now where have I heard that before...oh yeah! John 19:30! That was his dying words there. Apparently, someone heard him still singing.

[edit on 31-3-2005 by saint4God]

...maybe jesus being god was his human form were he did not relize that he was god then and after he died and raised up again went o ok i am god so thats why i died god did not forsaken me i am god but who knows ....

maybe there is no god and for humans to be kept in a mild form of contral made god wrote the bibel to contral humans and there for to explain the unexplained?

Sir Dog,

I will only responded to the points of free will at this point before moving foreword to Angels. In which, I will show how they too have freewill. One thing at a time, first free will, then who does it apply to.

It is not necessary to assume the Christian God at this moment. We can discuss God in the abstract sense. If God creates a human being, and he has freewill. You are right freewill cannot be disposed of, without a contradiction. So once freewill exists it must remain. Free action is quite another case. God who gave you freewill can still have command over all creation, even against your freewill. Man is a creation.
Example, you wish to stay on Earth, but God wants you in Heaven, and knows it is best for you, it may be against your freewill at the moment, but your are going to Heaven. If we go to the Bible is say God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, to attack the Israelites. This must have been again the freewill of the Pharaoh, but his freewill is not equal in power to Gods. Just as in the cases of robbery or rape, or some other evil. Our freewill was not to have this happen, but it did. We can fall off a cliff, ask God to make it stop, with our freewill, but God will allow to hit, for His good reason. So just because your freewill is making a choice it does mean you have any power other than that choice. If you are being forced to do something, even by God, and your will is against it, you have not lost your freewill, choice is still there. Do you see?


The Calvanist position is foregin to my mind, in all ways.

Vash:
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.


The question you have raised has confused many who are outside of the wisdom of God. For many questions, can only be answered by the Holy Spirit and not be mans mere mind.

First in order for the body of Jesus to die, the grace of God must leave it, then it can be resurrected.
Second, the Holy Fathers teach that he says this for our sake, not his, as was prayed by the High priest at the ninth hour, which is the same time the Lord dies. Please note the psalms, above. The Lord Jesus is rightful the high priest so it is he who says this prayer, not the High priest in the temple.
Third Jesus becomes the new Adam, he take his place, on the tree of death, the cross, so Adams prayer, why has thou forsaken me, is repeated just before victory on the Cross. It is said so we would think, why has thou forsaken us? Sin, this is why. But just as Adam partook of the tree of knowledge, Christ partakes of the tree of death, and brings us life, as God, is the author of life.

Now look at the other things he says at this time on the Cross.
He then presently granted the thief, the forgiveness of his former sins, and brought him into paradise to enjoy the mystical good things; who also cried out about the ninth hour, and said to His Father: "My God! my God! why hast Thou forsaken me?" And a little afterward, when He had cried with a loud voice, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," and had added, "Into Thy hands I commit my spirit," He gave up the ghost, and was buried before sunset in a new sepulcher.

He knew he was God, granted forgiveness, prayed for us, and taught us how to depart this world, commending our spirit in to the hands of God.

Mr. Donkey,

Originally posted by Balaams donkey

You are right freewill cannot be disposed of, without a contradiction. God who gave you freewill can still have command over all creation, even against your freewill.

So you're suggesting that God can command me to worship him, and that would not invalidate my freewill -- just my free action. That brings up a whole new can of worms. :-P

If we go to the Bible is say God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, to attack the Israelites. This must have been again the freewill of the Pharaoh, but his freewill is not equal in power to Gods.

If the Pharaoh could not have decided in a contradictory manner (note I said decided, not acted -- thus rendering the will, not the action), then I can not agree that the Pharaoh had freewill. Just like my example with the antichrist: is it possible for the antichrist to decide not to fulfill God's propechy? (again, note decide, not act)

If you are being forced to do something, even by God, and your will is against it, you have not lost your freewill, choice is still there. Do you see?

No. By this reasoning, God can command me to worship him and live the christian life by following Jesus and all of his teachings (as well as everyone else), and my freewill is not invalidated. Also noting that God wants all humans to go to heaven, and it is not a contradiction as you suggest, then it is necessary for God to do this to remain all loving.

Herein is your problem now: In order to make this distinction, the theist's reply to the "Problem of Evil" (that is, God can't command you not to be evil without violating freewill) is now defunct. Another explanation would be necessary.

The Calvanist position is foregin to my mind, in all ways.

It's not that foreign. The inspiration behind protestantism (Martin Luther) argued against the idea of freewill many times in his books. I must say, he puts up a rather good argument for the lack of freewill in man, too. It's just that the calvinists accepted it moreso than anyone else.

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
Vash:
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.


The question you have raised has confused many who are outside of the wisdom of God. For many questions, can only be answered by the Holy Spirit and not be mans mere mind.

First in order for the body of Jesus to die, the grace of God must leave it, then it can be resurrected.
Second, the Holy Fathers teach that he says this for our sake, not his, as was prayed by the High priest at the ninth hour, which is the same time the Lord dies. Please note the psalms, above. The Lord Jesus is rightful the high priest so it is he who says this prayer, not the High priest in the temple.
Third Jesus becomes the new Adam, he take his place, on the tree of death, the cross, so Adams prayer, why has thou forsaken me, is repeated just before victory on the Cross. It is said so we would think, why has thou forsaken us? Sin, this is why. But just as Adam partook of the tree of knowledge, Christ partakes of the tree of death, and brings us life, as God, is the author of life.

Now look at the other things he says at this time on the Cross.
He then presently granted the thief, the forgiveness of his former sins, and brought him into paradise to enjoy the mystical good things; who also cried out about the ninth hour, and said to His Father: "My God! my God! why hast Thou forsaken me?" And a little afterward, when He had cried with a loud voice, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," and had added, "Into Thy hands I commit my spirit," He gave up the ghost, and was buried before sunset in a new sepulcher.

He knew he was God, granted forgiveness, prayed for us, and taught us how to depart this world, commending our spirit in to the hands of God.

yes but my point was jesus is god his son but he is still god in the heavens..
so maybe god went to earth and the reason jesus was nto heard was beacus he was prayering to a god that was nto there as of yet not intell jeuss retruned to heaven ...


i am trying to find historical records on the death of jesus christ but if i think right there was never any record ..

o and on a nother note jesus did not die on his own a romen soldier priced hsi side with a spear so mythogaly says and the spear has the power to bring out ones inner strengh and it has the power to kill gods or so the myth go's ^_^

I vash,
I have to go but, the Bibles says, he gave up his Spirit, he died, then when the Romans, came to break his legs to order to kill him they saw he was already dead. Then then the Romans pirced his side and blood and water came out. So he did die by his own will.

I see your point, yes that might be possible, but God was in heaven as we see at the baptism of Christ, the voice from heaven saying "This is my son..." So he was in heaven and he was in Jesus.

There are some records the Gospels for one, four accounts of the Christ. I will get some others later.

got to go.....take care vash
love,
Balaam's donkey

Radardog, I'll be back

Vash, I want you to think about this very deeply.

I heard a pastor the other day saying that sometimes Satan plagues people with demons because they have the potential to become great spiritual people.

If they are gaurding you, they are keeping you from some greatness you are entitled to. Be strong, fight them off and find your true grace and glory.

You are a very bright and very niaeve young lady with a world of potential ahead of her.

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
I vash,
I have to go but, the Bibles says, he gave up his Spirit, he died, then when the Romans, came to break his legs to order to kill him they saw he was already dead. Then then the Romans pirced his side and blood and water came out. So he did die by his own will.

I see your point, yes that might be possible, but God was in heaven as we see at the baptism of Christ, the voice from heaven saying "This is my son..." So he was in heaven and he was in Jesus.

There are some records the Gospels for one, four accounts of the Christ. I will get some others later.

got to go.....take care vash
love,
Balaam's donkey

Radardog, I'll be back

yes but as for the gospel the bible the so called stoiers of chirst it was writen and made what it is today by man which means it was more then likly embalised and made in to some thing more then it really is ...

Hi Vash,

Let think about that for a moment? First the old testament was already written before Christ, over thousands of years, recently the Dead sea scrolls were found and the book of Isaiah was found, and when compared to the King James version, not one word had been changed. How about that?!

Now as soon the day of Pentecost occurred the Apostles of Christ when into all the know parts of the world. India, Russia, England, Rome, Egypt, and such, and they took with them the Creed, the Gospels, the letters, and finally they canonized the New Testament, and this book was spread over the known world, so how could it be that if one of books was in Africa, and other in Russia, and one in England that if anyone were to change one word and bring that corrupted version to the others, that they would accept it? They would not any more that if someone brought you a copy of the bill of rights with only 9 amendments. Do you see? Also many Saints were taught by God, they would confirmed this, St. Mary of Egypt comes to mind, she was baptized, at eighteen, after living a horrible life of a prostitute, and was told by the Mother of God, to flee into the desert, she never saw man nor beast after that, but when Fr. Zosamas met her 40 years later, she could quote the entire bible have never read it. She was God taught.

You can listen to her life on my internet radio station
www.live365.com/stations/tobit

I know people say the Bible is corrupted, but this is a lie, no one ever says this about any other book, do you hear people saying this about Homer? The Koran? Plato? Shakespeare? No, of course not. Also, if men were to change to Bible to their liking it would not be the way it is now. Ha! It would not have half of the rules in it that is does. No, it is the same now as it has been from the start. Furthermore, the Early Church Fathers, all quoted from the Bible in their writings, from different places. They quoted it so much you could put the whole Bible together just from their writings. I have all 38 volumes, it is the size of two in encyclopedia sets. Their letters start from the time of Christ. So, please do not believe this. It is only lies from Satan, so we will not find our good God.

Take care, your friend
Bal

Herein is your problem now: In order to make this distinction, the theist's reply to the "Problem of Evil" (that is, God can't command you not to be evil without violating freewill) is now defunct. Another explanation would be necessary.

Dog,

Let us forget everything ever written about anything, no Bible, no Calvin, no theisms, nothing, just you and me up close and personal like.

Me and you are going to talk about reality, not fantasy. What is real, you know you have free will, Right? You also know that if I were to kidnap you, that would be against your freewill, right? Otherwise it would not be kidnapping. Now, what I am doing is against your freewill, by kidnapping you. So your actions are controlled by me, I bind you up take to a hide out and call your parents and demand money. You want none of this. So does your actions change your will? No, if so then the moment you were being kidnapped then that would be your will, right? So, will and action are not coupled, the are separate. My actions do not always follow my will, nor does will always follow actions, do you follow? Do you agree or not that these statement are reality of life? Nothing more just these statements. Are freewill and action bound?
For it will be impossible to go forward, till we find agreement, right?

till tomorrow sir Dog,

Don't the bed dogs bite, ha! I kill myself.

what i mean is the orignal bible was wirten by man so there any of them chould of wrote what ever they wanted matthew choudl have writen any thign in there at all ....

hmm i am wondering how this got in to a relgion debat and my other topic got truned in to this one lol o well i dont mind

what i mean is the orignal bible was wirten by man so there any of them chould of wrote what ever they wanted matthew choudl have writen any thign in there at all ....

Quite true, any one of the Gospel writers could have made up what they wanted to. Now what we see is four people in separate areas of the world writing four different Gospels, and all four are very different in feeling, grammar, text, theology, and style, yet they all generally agree? On all of the main points. Take the Gospel of John that was written by St. John in the year 95, by a disciple of John on the island of Patmos. St. Mary Magdalene, was with him to write this Gospel. This Gospel was not written with the other three men, yet it matches. Next is the Gospel of Luke who was not an Apostle, yet wrote this book on the request of the king, whom Luke had visited, then this king writes Luke and says could you write down the story you told us while you were here so we can have it. St. Luke replies,

Luke 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

Well, they would have remembered if Luke did not keep the story straight, and would have suspected a lie.

Next, there were the seventy Apostles of Christ, the 12 were the heads, but 58 others existed also, plus witnesses, plus the Jews whom were very much against this whole thing, and if the could find lies among the Christians they would have quickly pointed them out. Note only this but remember at there were well over 5000 men alone whom were followers of Christ in some areas removed from others, and they would have remember things, so if the Gospels were in error, it would have been discredited and long ago, and people would not have given their very heads for their belief in Christ.
They all went to separate parts of the world preaching by memory, then the people hearing them would tell others, it they were to tell the story differently, it would have quickly been seen, and the preachers, would have been killed by many of the people and we see, the were killed for telling the truth. St. John for instance could not read or write, so he could not have had a guide other than memory.
Now never on Earth has such an event ever taken place were so many people in different parts of the world were writing about the same subject and the story matched, can you think of any such event? The Koran? No, it was written by one man. The plays of Shakespeare, nope. Hinduism, no real wittings to speak of. This is unseen in the History of the world. So no doubt they are true and correct.
Many have tried to discredit the Bible, such as Islam, the state the Gospels are incorrect, yet have never made a good case for this. They hate Christianity, if any body could do this they would have, they do confirm the Christ. The Jews, have tried also, but fail.
Now if we believe in God, then we know God would not abandon us. So we would know the worlds greatest religions would be the source to look at first, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism. The first three make up the greatest belief in the world, we also note the first three are all based on the Old testament. This is a very big clue as to the True faith. Islam does not consider women to be full people. You as a woman must know this is simple not True, leaving Christianity and Judaism. Well you can see my point. This is way so many people have become Christians. It is the only faith the makes sense.

Takecare,
Yourfriend

ok what about adam and eva they dont even state that adam was frist maried to lilith a women that was all for womens rights and hade a evil heart adam not likling her asked god to creat a new wife and thos he created eva from adam and cast aside lilith ...?

ever here of this before?