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The 5 Laws of Gold: (aka the conspiracy of the rich)

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posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 01:11 PM
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I've been thinking about making a thread like this for a while, in response to the hundreds of posts I see about the rich being evil, part of the New World Order, or in some sort of conspiracy against the poor. This viewpoint is not only naively ignorant, but also immediately reflects the lack of financial acumen of the person stating such things.

In this thread, I intend to prove the following statements:

  • The wealthy need no conspiracy to remain wealthy.
  • Anyone with the ability to earn, has the ability to attain great wealth, given time.
  • The only difference between wealthy and poor people is that rich people were either born that way, or were disciplined enough to get there.
  • Those who are poor, choose to be.


First, a bit of history about myself. I grew up in the ghetto. I don't mean a family where daddy didn't buy me a Corvette. I mean I grew up in one of the worst neighborhoods that Houston, Texas, had to offer. As it was a corner lot, two rival gangs fought on our lawn, nearly every night. I used to fall asleep to the sounds of screams and gunshots. Later life would toss me into homelessness in Austin, Texas. Not the sort of homelessness where you crash on friends couches, but the kind where you learn exactly just how much fun it can be to sleep in a dumpster because the local shelter is too dangerous or crowded. There were times when Ramen noodles could be considered luxurient compared to what I had to eat in order to get by. In short, I was as poor as poor can be. With what tiny credit I had, I managed rack up $15,000 worth of debt and destroy my rating.

Before I learned the "Rules of Gold", I had just barely managed to attain a crappy apartment in a Metroplex ghetto, and had a few pieces of either donated or dumpster-dived furniture.

Now, less than a year away from 30, I have a nice apartment, am looking at buying a $125-150K house, have one car paid off, another car paid off in a couple of months (both in fine condition), managed to buy my fiance a $6,500 engagement ring, and a $12,000 wedding. I'm putting her through school, and then I myself am returning to school. I earn roughly $35k/year before taxes, have no benefits. My fiance earns less than $10k/year. I have also brought my debt down to 2/3 what it was. I've got so much money saved up right now, I've got to start diversifying my accounts in order to get better rates of interest. Assuming no change in my wage, for the rest of my life, I will have $1.7 million dollars in liquid cash in 35 years. How many of you can say the same thing, right now?

Now, ask me how long it took to get from point A to point B?

About a year.

I did it without selling anything. I did it without scamming anyone. I did it without accepting any charity. And most importantly, I did it without breaking a single law, ethic, or moral value.

Now ask me what I did?

I read a book. I stopped assuming I knew it all. I opened my eyes, I opened my ears, I opened my mind. I stopped nailing myself to a cross. I stopped blaming the rich, and instead decided to become one of them.

This little 80-year old book that changed my whole life is called The Richest Man in Babylon, by George S. Clason, written in 1926. If you are the sort that reads books, and want to be rich, read this book. It's a pretty quick read (about 145 pages), involves no complex ideas, math, or terminology. The entire thing is done in a series of short stories centering around Ancient Babylon. It will tell you everything you will ever need to know to ensure a comfortable existance.

For those that only get their reading done here at ATS, I will summarize the most important lessons in the book below. Those who rise to wealth do so with a code as ancient as Babylon itself, and the rules have never changed. Here they are:

THE FIVE LAWS OF GOLD

  1. "Gold cometh gladly and in increasing quantity to any man who will put by not less than one-tenth of his earnings to create an estate for his future and that of his family." - This first part is very simple, and surprisingly easy, regardless of your income. It's also known as "pay yourself first." Always set 10% of your pay aside into savings. Find a savings account, and dump it in there, every single paycheck. Never fall in the trap of missing a paycheck's worth of savings, and thinking you can dump twice as much in next time. Though it may not seem like much, it amounts to thousands within a short period of time. If you earn only $5/hour, and work a 40 hours week, ($200 pay), then even $20 a week will add up to over $1000 by the end of the year. This does not only apply to paychecks! You must do this with any money you receive, be it a tax refund, a gift of money, winnings, that $10 you found on the street. Pay yourself first, before your bills, before your toys, before your living expenses. ALWAYS SET ASIDE 10%

  2. "Gold laboreth diligently and contentedly for the wise owner who finds for it profitable employment, multiplying even as the flocks of the field." - Everything you save should earn. In other words, putting your money in a mattress isn't going to do much good. In order for your wealth to truly accumulate, you need to put it into an interest bearing account. The interest it earns will, in turn, be added to the total, so that you earn even more interest, which will be added to the total, and earn even more interest, and so on. Start off small. Get a savings account. In the beginning you will only see a few cents added in your monthly statement. But as you add to it with your 10%, and your money earns that interest, it will grow, until those few cents a month turn to a few dollars a month. Those few dollars, in turn, becomes tens of dollars, then hundreds... Think of it as if you were breeding your money. Once you have a few thousand saved, look for more profitable interest-bearing accounts, such as a money-market, or a Ginnie Maes. YOUR MONEY SHOULD ALWAYS EARN INTEREST

  3. "Gold clingeth to the protection of the cautious owner who invests it under the advice of men wise in its handling." - Almost as inevitable as death and taxes, are people who will just be dying to spend your money for you, or give you advice on what to do with it. So you've got this friend, we'll say he's a carpenter, and if you give him a thousand dollars, to join his thousand, he'll go across the border and pick up some jewels that will be worth TEN TIMES the amount. Let me ask you this: if you want the best quality jewels, for the lowest price, who are you going to go to? You go to a jewelry, or a gemologist. If you want quality craftsmanship and quality wood, go to your carpenter friend, but do not trust him with a subject he is not specialized in. DO NOT TAKE INVESTMENT ADVICE ABOUT JEWELRY FROM A CARPENTER.

  4. "Gold slippeth away from the man who invests it in businesses or purposes with which he is not familiar or which are not approved by those skilled in its keep." - There is a reason that most lenders refuse to trust money to someone who has none. They simply can't be assumed to have the skills or knowledge capable of paying it back. After all, if one had the knowledge to manage money wisely enough to be able to pay back a loan, they wouldn't be dirt poor. The same should apply to your money. When you have amassed a comfortable amount of savings, you will be approached by everyone from friends to family members to total strangers, all of whom want to just borrow enough money to get back on their feet, or to start a business. The best help you can give them is the knowledge of The Five Laws of Gold. If they are wise, they will thank you, get a job, and slowly turn their life around to the point where they will never need to borrow again. If they are not, they will demand instant gratification. Should you choose to lend to them anyway, you may as well throw your money into a ditch. Business loans are different. Keeping in line with Law #2, you should arrange for reasonable, timely payments, with interest, and be certain to have the legal paperwork to back it up. Using Law #3, do not give your carpenter friend a business loan so that he can open up a jewelry store. Suggest that, instead, he come up with a plan for a construction company. And always remember, the safest loan you can give is to a person who already has a liquid net worth of at least 4 times what he borrows. NEVER LOAN MONEY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT CAPABLE OF PAYING IT BACK

  5. "Gold flees from the man who would force it to impossible earnings or who follow the alluring advice of tricksters and schemers or who trusts it to his own inexperience and romantic desires in investment." - Gambling is the stupidest investment one can possibly make. If you gamble, do it for fun, and plan on losing that money. Once it is gone, do not grab more, hoping to make up for it. Beware of ridiculously high interest rates, anything past about 11% is almost certainly a scam job. Before you invest, do your research. Make sure you know exactly how it works. If you don't understand, ask a reputable banker to explain it to you. Believe it or not, most of them are more than happy to do so, as a wealthy person makes a better customer. SAFE INVESTMENT ALWAYS PAYS OFF BETTER THAN RISK


There is more to learn, and I will be more than happy to post it, provided anyone shows interest in this thread. I am already well on my way to wealth, and would have you join me, if you are so inclined.




posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 01:31 PM
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Ok you've got me interested. Please, continue. Normally, your post would come off too "infomercially" for me, but I've seen your posts before and respect them by the by.


I've already gone and found the book on Amazon and shall pick it up when I get home today.

Thanks for making the thread, while I'm still leery of the "Ultra Rich", you've got my ear.

X



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 01:36 PM
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All respect for you Libra.


When I first came back to America from Germany, my 2 kids, my wife and myself were staying in a one bedroon apartment. I had no relatives to help us out, either monetarily or by babysitting the kids. I worked my butt of at my current job, and went from parts driver to parts foreman in three years.

We now have a house all our own. I feel proud of the fact that we had absolutely no outside help from anyone. Even though it is tough in a single income family, we are making it. We have a car, and enough left over to be able to enjoy ourselves in a moderate manor. I also started investing, and hope to have my first million in 2-3 years.

All a person needs to do is apply themselves. Take the extra step, go the extra mile. Take chances. Use your brain,instead of just doing what you're told, then clocking out for the day. Think in the future, but enjoy the present.

Thank you TheLibra . You are an inspiration to most.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 02:12 PM
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Yes, libra you are an inspiration to a lot of people, or at least me. I also think I know what part of Houston you might of lived in, as I live close to their myself. I'm very happy for you in the fact that you changed your life around. Oh, the wonderous power of books.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 04:30 PM
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Glad to see some interest. I assure you, there's nothing I'm trying to sell you or get you to sell. This entire thread is about self-empowerment, learning the secrets behind the "conspiracy" of how the rich got rich, and how you can join them.

Since some interest is shown, I will now go into the Seven Cures for a Lean Purse. Some of these tie in to the Five Laws of Gold, but they are good to learn on their own, because of the differing meanings.

As with all things, we need an example, and I will use myself. As previously mentioned, I had $15,000 in debt. I now have less than $10,000 debt, in under a year. My credit is improving, and I've got quite a healthy bank account besides.

But it wasn't always that way. A little over a year ago, I lived paycheck to paycheck, and sometimes lived 2-3 paychecks ahead. Rent was usually late, utilities were late, car payments were late, no debt was being paid, and even the IRS had a bean on me. I had a second-chance bank account that charged a monthly fee, because no bank would even let me put my money in a normal account, thanks to hot checks in the past. In short, life sucked, and I had a "lean purse".

The Richest Man in Babylon addresses these issues in the form of a short story about a man who was a slave due to debt. In many ways, I was as well. It was an insurmountable wall, I didn't even know how high it was at the time. I just knew I could never climb it. That is, until I read the following from the book:

SEVEN CURES FOR A LEAN PURSE

  1. "Start thy purse to fattening." - There is no Santa Clause, there are no tooth faeries, and a large pile of money is not going to fall in your lap. If you keep ten percent of everything you make for yourself, over time, your purse will begin to fatten. This is largely covered by the first Law of Gold, but is important enough to briefly emphasize again. The only way your purse will fatten is to set aside 10% of all money you make.

  2. "Control thy expenditures." - My father always had a saying that never really struck until after I'd read the book, but now it makes a lot of sense. "It's not what you earn, it's what you have left at the end of the month." You absolutely must learn to budget. In future posts, if someone wants, I can go over budgeting in more detail, but in short, you should have a spreadsheet accounding for all your income, your bills, your cost of living, your debt repayments, what you are putting into savings, and the total balances left for checking, savings, and debt repayments. You then need to project it at least a year into the future, taking into account annual spikes in expenditures, such as Christmas and Birthdays, rent increase, and so forth. Take into account spending drops as well. Detail it as much as possible, and update it with the "real" numbers every single week. After you manage to put together a spreadsheet that works, you're looking at about 5-10 minutes a week to update the projected budget with the real numbers. If you make $500 a week, does that make you richer than someone who makes $300 a week? The answer is no. What makes you richer is what you have left. If the $300/week person has a better budget, they will end up the wealthier.

  3. "Make thy gold multiply." - I've already gone over how important it is for your money to earn interest. Now let me tell you the rule of 72. The rule of 72 basically states that at a roughly 7% interest rate, your money will double every 10 years. At 10%, it will double roughly every 7 years. An IRA will typically earn around 10%. It is without a doubt the most solid investment you can make. In another post on this thread, I'll later talk about IRAs in laymans terms, but for now, an example.

    I'm almost 30. If I plan to retire when I'm 65, that gives me 35 years to find the wisest investments possible. If I put $4,000 into an IRA at 10% average interest, in 7 years (age 37), that 4,000 becomes 8,000. In another 7 years (age 44), that 8,000 has become 16,000. At age 51 I've got 32,000 At age 58 I've got 64,000. At age 64, I've got $128,000.

    That's one year. One IRA, $4,000 turned into $128,000. Now imagine how much money 35 years worth of $4,000 deposits into an IRA account every single year.

    A little over $1.7 million (roughly).

    Now, some of you aren't even 25 yet. What about you? The average comes to about $3.3 million.

    For those of you starting at 18, you can count on a cool $6 million.

    That is the power of time, and letting your money breed. But 65 is so ooooold! What am I going to do with money when I'm 65? With millions of dollars in the bank, I'm pretty sure a few ideas will come to mind.

  4. "Guard thy treasures from loss." - This goes back to the whole "don't trust a carpenter to buy your jewels" thing. Instant gratification is going to be a terrible temptation, many many times--especially for us Americans who are innundated with it every day. But true, stable, monetary wealth comes from wise, relatively safe investments. If you're going to throw any money towards risky investments, do it with the money you have not set aside for debts or savings. If you have money beyond the 10% savings to throw away, and you have no debt to pay off, you should set up another savings account, and pop a percentage into it. Use that for your hot stock tips, or risky investments. Or play it smart, find a Ginnie Mae find, or do laddered CDs... but for chrissakes NEVER jeopardize your true savings by loaning it to friends, family, gambling, or risky stocks.

    A brief aside. The Hunt family used to be one of the riches families in the nation. Nowadays, I'm not even sure they make the business news. The reason is that the children dipped into the principle (the true savings) rather than being content off the interest. They dipped, the interest lessened, they dipped more, the interest lessened more, and eventually, their money earned squat, and there was nothing left.

  5. "Make of thy dwelling a profitable investment." - A house is arguably one of the best investments one can make. It certainly ranks in the top 3, and you'll still find people arguing to have it in first place. If you spend 10 years in a house, making regular payments on it, you own a good portion of that house. You can sell it, usually for a huge profit. If you live in an apartment for 10 years, you own no part of it. You can't sell it, you can't modify it, and you have gained nothing. A house is every bit as much of an investment as an IRA, stocks, and savings accounts. More information in another post, regarding houses, provided interest is shown.

  6. "Insure a future income." - You won't have your health forever, and sometimes bad things will happen. Insurance, while sometimes costly, is not a scam. Get insurance. Get home insurance, get car insurance, get health insurance. The savings in health insurance alone are immeasurable later on down the road. Another anecdote: I had to visit the hospital, without insurance, twice. Over 2/3 of my debt are due to that, and I consider myself lucky it was only $11,000. Additionally, when you cash in those fat savings plans for your millions, you probably still have anywhere from 20-50 years to live, depending on your health habits and medical advances. Perhaps more. Do you really want to work at Wal-Mart, handing out carts, once you blow all that money? Hell no! Set aside enough that you can live comfortably off the interest alone. And when you die, your children will have a nest egg to start their own wealth off with. Thus brings us to another point in this: You must teach your kids these rules if the success of your riches is to pass from generation to generation. By the time your grandkids are grandparents, if each has followed the Laws of Gold, and passed the savings down, your family will be billionaires. Don't believe me? Do the math.

    Say each generation has a kid, on average, at age 25. That makes about 100 years. To be conservative, we'll assume no greater an average rate of interest than 7%.

    You leave your family with about $1,000,000 thanks to following the rules of gold. Now double it, ten times over. $2mil, $4mil, $8mil, $16mil, $32mil, $64mil, $128mil, $256mil, $512mil, $1 BILLION DOLLARS.

    Your family just became Old Money. That's how it's done.

  7. "Increase thy ability to earn." - In time you will be able to look at everything in terms of how much money it can make for you, and since you will have very few money problems, you'll probably have a lot of free time on your hands. If you have a hobby, it can usually be turned into money. Got a passion for art? Start collecting works by talented painters who are old. Got a hankering for golf? Enter competitions. Got some great ideas? Start typing and write a book. You can enjoy life, and even manage to profit off that enjoyment. Our single greatest asset is time, and if you use yours wisely, you will have more money than you will know what to do with.


Thus ends the Seven Cures for a Lean Purse. As previously mentioned, this will be a continuing thread. Please feel free to ask any questions you may have. I won't pretend to know the answers if I don't, but I've learned enough that I can at least point you in the right direction.

Future posts will include: How to pay off debt, how to make a REAL budget (and why it's not a dirty word), Why Roth IRAs not only get you rich, but stiff the government out of most of the tax money, types of investments, how to live within your means, and answers to any questions you may have.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 04:38 PM
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Good post, I agree with everything you said with one exception. That people that are poor choose to be. That is blatantlly wrong. While there is almost always SOME opertunity to succed in the US, and most other developed nations.
The people that live in Etheopia, or Afganistan for example have little to no chance of ever collecting any gold (aside from selling drugs and diamonds to the rich in this country).

I wholehardedly belive that the rich, and expecially the uber-rich's goal is to mantian the divide between the rich and the poor. Because that divide is where they get there power.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by Wgatenson
Good post, I agree with everything you said with one exception. That people that are poor choose to be...(snip)...The people that live in Etheopia, or Afganistan for example have little to no chance of ever collecting any gold (aside from selling drugs and diamonds to the rich in this country).


You are quite correct. I should have placed a disclaimer saying this was only valid for countries that are capitalistic in nature, and where people have basic human rights to life, liberty, and property. Happiness is optional in any country.


Originally posted by Wgatenson
I wholehardedly belive that the rich, and expecially the uber-rich's goal is to mantian the divide between the rich and the poor. Because that divide is where they get there power.


Frankly, the rich don't care one way or the other.

They really don't. They've got money, they have access to whatever money can buy them. They have plenty of leisure time, and can play businesses like a board game. They derive no power from the poor, because the poor have jack squat to offer them. Any power the rich have is because they used their money, their time, and their budgeting skills wisely.

Perhaps they can make more money by having tons of low-paid workers slaving over factories all day in a third-world country, but realistically, that's just a matter of personal taste. They not only have to want more money, but also have to have an interest in a labor-intensive market.

Most rich people don't want more money because it's already coming in droves from interest. After all, when all you have to do to get by is withdraw your monthly interest of several million dollars, what's the point? Most rich people want the same thing the poor stoner on the couch wants...happiness. That may be derived from something as simple as a business empire, or something as complex as molding a clay pot.

So why should the uber-rich care about the fate of a poor gang member in a bad part of Houston that they never met? Unless they're a charity nut, or a sadistic villain bent on World Domination, they have no reason to. I will grant that anyone is capable of great evil, regardless of being rich or poor, but the idea that the rich draw their power from poor sots on the street is as bad a generalization as a racial epithet.

When I am rich, and I will be rich, will it be because I broke the backs of hardworking stiffs, preyed upon the poor, or joined some plot for World Domination? Hell no! I want to take over the world, granted, but my money will come from planning ahead, and using my time and money to their full potential.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 05:30 PM
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This is one of those areas ripe for potential insult with which I admit the leisure of not having to consider the feelings of a two dimensial persona has it's advantages.

Dispensing with all unnecessary tact then, huh?


Originally posted by thelibra

*Those who are poor, choose to be.


Maybe some people, those in perfect health, no catastrophic health problems, long life, no kids, and an airplane never flew into a building destroying everything they ever worked for... but aside from them (and all incarnations of them) this statement is not proven by either the tantilization of "being rich" or your testimony of point A to point B.

Speaking of which, was that to see if we were paying attention?


In short, I was as poor as poor can be. With what tiny credit I had, I managed rack up $15,000 worth of debt and destroy my rating.

Before I learned the "Rules of Gold", I had just barely managed to attain a crappy apartment in a Metroplex ghetto, and had a few pieces of either donated or dumpster-dived furniture.

Now, less than a year away from 30, I have a nice apartment, am looking at buying a $125-150K house, have one car paid off, another car paid off in a couple of months (both in fine condition), managed to buy my fiance a $6,500 engagement ring, and a $12,000 wedding. I'm putting her through school, and then I myself am returning to school. I earn roughly $35k/year before taxes, have no benefits. My fiance earns less than $10k/year. I have also brought my debt down to 2/3 what it was. I've got so much money saved up right now, I've got to start diversifying my accounts in order to get better rates of interest. Assuming no change in my wage, for the rest of my life, I will have $1.7 million dollars in liquid cash in 35 years. How many of you can say the same thing, right now?

Now, ask me how long it took to get from point A to point B?

About a year.


Does not compute. I'm not saying it's not possible to spend 43% of your income paying off debt, or 53% of your income on jewlery, or save 10% of your income from a single year... but it is impossible to do all of the above in a year and eat, pay rent, pay tuition, and have any savings whatsoever, much less 'so much you need to diversify.'


Then it gets into the high art part, assuming this is a demonstration of the gullibility of the masses to side with the "elite" of the NWO by merely the tantilization of being "like them." That, or this is just in the wrong forum altogether.



Now ask me what I did?

I read a book. I stopped assuming I knew it all. I opened my eyes, I opened my ears, I opened my mind. I stopped nailing myself to a cross. I stopped blaming the rich, and instead decided to become one of them.


Well if that's not an infomercial for why the poor should vote Republican I don't know what is.

But again, being "on your way" to $1.7 million (aren't we all) and "on your way" to the poor house (aren't we all) really isn't any different. Some things are simply not in your control, and if this was all serious as opposed to a bit of dinner theatre that *no benefits* thing will catch up to you quick friend.

Without offering my own testimonial (as those are rather pointless and indicative of nothing but one man's luck or misfortune) I can say that you can do everything right (relatively, not in hindsight), choose not to be poor, and still die quite poor... or at least *not rich.*

[edit on 11-3-2005 by RANT]



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by thelibra
*Those who are poor, choose to be.

Maybe some people, those in perfect health, no catastrophic health problems, long life, no kids, and an airplane never flew into a building destroying everything they ever worked for... but aside from them (and all incarnations of them) this statement is not proven by either the tantilization of "being rich" or your testimony of point A to point B.


Yeah, in retrospect, I really just should have left that sentance out. If you have a way to edit old posts, it'd save a lot of trouble and re-explaining. I suppose I didn't so much prove it, as provide a case for it. A case limited to someone who lives in a capitalist economy, doesn't have the luck of Marvin the Robot, and is not plagued with so many health problems that they can't hold a job.

So perhaps, what would have been a better line would have been:

Most people in capitalist country who are poor, choose to be.

That at least qualifies it, as I do believe most people in places like America are not bedridden or hated by the gods. Though I personally believe we make our own luck (hell, I'm rather convinced I create the universe around me), I should recognize there are those who are equally convinced they are a constant target of psychic vampires, lizardmen, elder gods, and Trekkies.



Originally posted by RANT
Speaking of which, was that to see if we were paying attention?


Was what? The thing about the poor choosing to be? No, it was bad form on my part. I'm still learning that whole "don't assume everyone thinks the way that I do" thing.


Originally posted by RANT
Does not compute. I'm not saying it's not possible to spend 43% of your income paying off debt, or 53% of your income on jewlery, or save 10% of your income from a single year... but it is impossible to do all of the above in a year and eat, pay rent, pay tuition, and have any savings whatsoever, much less 'so much you need to diversify.'



Ah, but it does. Future posts will explain in greater detail, but in brief, here's how it works:

  • The Ring - The ring is valued at $6,500. I did not, however, spend that much. Rather than buy it as one complete set, I bought a "Hearts of Fire" band, and purchased the diamond separately (after doing a TON of research on diamonds, and where to get them), made nice-nice with a jeweler who really knew his stuff, and got it put together as one ring. The whole package cost about $3,500. By the way, I feel I should just throw this in, "Hearts of Fire" diamonds are the absolute best. I heavily recommend them for anyone that has the money.
  • The House - You can get into a house with zero down, and without having to pay Private Mortgage Insurance (which will run you about $900-2000 per year) if you get what is called an 80-20 loan. Your closing costs can be handled in large by the seller, in a deal where they make some sort of contribution towards a charitable organization and it applies to the closing costs. The 80-20 loan basically is a 2nd loan that covers the 20% down you'd normally have to have in cash in order to get a house. For first-time home buyers, this is a great option, since the rule of thumb is to get into a house for as little down as possible.
  • The Debt - As you can well guess, most of my debt was old, and had already gone to collection agencies, or been written off. When this happens, you can often "settle" for less than that of what you owe. Here's why:

    1. Credit Card agency hasn't received a payment from you in a long time. Your outstanding $1000 balance is eventually deemed a "charge off" and your account is sold to the highest bidder.
    2. The bidder, a collection agency, probably ends up buying the account for about $50. It's rarely more than 5% of the total debt, because it's already assumed you'll probably never pay.
    3. The collection agency wants you to pay, because if they can turn $50 into $1000, that proved to be a very profitable investment. However, they will often take anywhere from 50% to 75% to "settle".
    4. The Credit Card company has an even greater interest in settling your debt, because they get absolutely nothing if the collection agency gets your money. They will often take 25% to 50% because it's better than nothing.
    5. So you call the collection agency, and work out the best deal that you can with them. Say you get an offer to settle the debt for 60% of the total. Then you call the Credit Card's Accounts Payables department, and offer to pay them instead, and see what they offer you to settle up. If it's greater than 60%, say that you've already got that offer from the Collection Agency, so how about 40%, because it's better than nothing. Most of the time they will agree.
    6. Thus, you just got rid of $1000 debt for $400, in a perfectly legal, ethical, and morally sound way.

  • Rent, Bills, Car Paid Off, etc - This is actually a lot easier than it seems, but it does require budgeting your money, and following that budget to the letter. Both mine and my fiance have our budget, allocating for Cost of living (groceries, gas, cigarettes, and other neccessities that can be predicted based on past purchase histories), bills, rent, and even entertainment. The bills are easily predictable too, as they are a regular occurance. We set aside 10% of all money we both take in into savings, 20% goes towards paying off debt, and we live off the remaining 70%. It's really not much more difficult than it was before. You'd be surprised, after budgeting, how much money you really have. Without a budget, I easily urinated away 50% or more of my income, all the time.
  • The Wedding - As it turns out, you can haggle with weddings as well, and often get a service for about 2/3 the stated price. That combined with Bridal Conventions (where you can get some sweet discounts) allows for you to sometimes get a service for 50% of what they'd normally charge. So, realistically, we're probably paying about $8000 for a $12000 dollar wedding. Even if we were paying the $12,000 in full, it's still quite possible, because of the power of the budget, and planning ahead.
  • The Savings - The savings, I didn't have to do anything with. I simply put 10% away, and let it sit there until enough is built up to get a better interest-earning account. The tiers for savings are usually $0-2500 for a basic savings account that earns you fractions of a percent, $2500-$5000 to get you to 1-4%, $5000-$10,000 for 5-7% and $10+ to earn better than 7%. That is a very rough average across the board, for varying account types.

Anyway, it really does compute. All you have to do is play the system, do you research, stick to a budget, and learn the fine art of haggling. The system works for us poor chaps too, it's not just there for The Man.


Originally posted by RANT
Then it gets into the high art part, assuming this is a demonstration of the gullibility of the masses to side with the "elite" of the NWO by merely the tantilization of being "like them." That, or this is just in the wrong forum altogether.



I beg to differ. Almost thread I read has something about how the rich are in some sort of conspiracy against the poor, or that they have some sort of NWO agenda, or that they prey off the poor, or that the problems of the world are all because of them, or that the whole "being rich" requires being in on whatever secret organization they are a part of.

Well, what I am offering is the True Conspiracy of the Rich, which is that none of that crap is neccesary to be rich. All you need is the ability to earn a wage, to live in a capitalist economy, the discipline to stick to a budget, set aside money for savings, the wisdom to upgrade your savings wisely, the art of haggling, and time. Time is perhaps the greatest factor, as it allows your money to breed and multiply.


Originally posted by RANT
Well if that's not an infomercial for why the poor should vote Republican I don't know what is.


Call it what you will, but the only thing I'm trying to sell you is the idea that YOU have the ability, the power, and the resources, to become rich. That's it. I heavily recommend buying The Richest Man in Babylon, but it's not like I see a penny from it if you do, it's just a really great book, and one that taught me that I had this ability as well.


Originally posted by RANT
But again, being "on your way" to $1.7 million (aren't we all) and "on your way" to the poor house (aren't we all) really isn't any different. Some things are simply not in your control, and if this was all serious as opposed to a bit of dinner theatre that *no benefits* thing will catch up to you quick friend.


Yes, this is true. Fate can be a harsh mistress. However, that really just comes down to how much resolve you have. If you lost everything of material value today, what would you have left? Nothing but your knowledge. Assuming you still have the ability to earn a wage, you can always start over. If you don't believe me, I invite you to examine the history of Jews throughout the world, especially in Russia and Germany. Time, after time, after time, their houses would be burnt to the ground, they'd be run out of town, the governments would confiscate everything they had. Did they throw in the towell? No. They picked up what little they had left, and started over somewhere else.


Originally posted by RANT
Without offering my own testimonial (as those are rather pointless and indicative of nothing but one man's luck or misfortune) I can say that you can do everything right (relatively, not in hindsight), choose not to be poor, and still die quite poor... or at least *not rich.*


You died? That must make typing rather difficult.


Seriously though, Rant, give it a chance. It's easy to dismiss it all, and make excuses why it won't work, because it takes zero effort to do so. What really takes work is doing whatever is neccesary to ensure your financial future. Naysaying is really nothing more than saying "I really don't have what it takes to try." At the very least, allow others the chance to try.

What do I stand to benefit from sharing all this? Nothing. Maybe a few points from posting on ATS, but really, that and 50 cents will get me a phone call (or is it a dollar now?). So why am I doing it? Because I lived the life of someone who had given up hope, and assumed I would die as poor as I was born. It sucks. Sometimes there were days where I hoped I'd die in a fatal accident, just so I wouldn't have to go through life so poor. That's no way to live. No way to live at all. Nowadays, I sleep well at night, I wake up each day feeling confident that I'm making progress, and when I review my budget each week, I have it proven to me in the form of several spreadsheets. I know that my family will always be provided for, and that as long as I'm alive and I can earn, I can always make more progress towards riches. As for my legacy, I rest confident that one day, my family will be known as Old Money.

[edit on 3/12/2005 by thelibra]



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 10:49 AM
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Ahhh, okay then thelibra.
Issues resolved. Seriously I figured you meant most of what I was pointing out (about exceptions), but was just pointing them out to make sure.

And it really was just the conflicting figures being presented in evidence that threw me at all. I didn't realize you meant "values" etc. as opposed to expenditures against stated income. You can probably see why I got confused.

Yes, all things being equal one can certainly advance himself in the world with discipline, controlled spending and saving, and working the system.

My question then from an ideological standpoint would be even if theoretically any person can do this, can all? I think not.

The point being, someone has to lose don't they? At least in this capitalist system we've established these rules only apply in. So as far as being an apology for the consolidation of wealth and power (trying to keep this grounded in NWO theory), it's really not. It's may be a template for how one may rise on the pyramid, but not all. The pyramid remains. Were we all "at the top" none of us would be "rich" anymore would we? Probably a moot point, since we can't all be "at the top" anyway. Those before us advance from our own efforts to rise among them.

Systems are self supporting and reinforcing. Working within the sytem of the NWO (as advocated here) changes nothing but your own station as you push someone else further up, and someone else further down. In the theory anyway.

Torches, pitchforks and guillotines are quicker anyway.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 11:00 AM
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nice 1 libra.....i found your post super intresting!.......
another book you would probably like is "rich dad,poor dad"...cant remember who its buy but its popular so have a look.

rgeards.....and onwards and upwards!



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by RANT
Ahhh, okay then thelibra.
Issues resolved. Seriously I figured you meant most of what I was pointing out (about exceptions), but was just pointing them out to make sure.


And rightly so, because I often forget to disclaimer with exceptions. I usually just assume that the exceptions are already known by the reader, which is another mistake I must correct in future posts and writings.


Originally posted by RANT
And it really was just the conflicting figures being presented in evidence that threw me at all. I didn't realize you meant "values" etc. as opposed to expenditures against stated income. You can probably see why I got confused.


Definitely. And this was later to be addressed, but in short, values are another way of playing the system in your advantage. Realistically, if we had to sell the ring tomorrow (over my dead body), we would likely only get 1/4 the value. If we could put it on the market for a while, we could get perhaps 1/2 to 3/4 the value. It would only be if we truly went to a lot of effort and time, that we could get 3/4 to full value for the ring (or an insurance claim would do it). Hence the illusion of value.

However, this illusion applies to our liabilities as well as our assets. The debt I've paid off so far was valued at about $5,000. Playing against the value, though, I manage to increase my net worth by that much for 1/4 to 1/2 the cost ($2,000).

The combination of this plus real liquid assets (like cash) are how one can continuously advance for less than the real cost.


Originally posted by RANT
Yes, all things being equal one can certainly advance himself in the world with discipline, controlled spending and saving, and working the system.


Hooray! We have cohesion. Ceterus Paribus (sp) is one of the founding ideals of economics, because of all the other variables involved. But, cp (all other things equal), advancement is not only possible, but almost certain.


Originally posted by RANT
My question then from an ideological standpoint would be even if theoretically any person can do this, can all? I think not.

The point being, someone has to lose don't they?


Yes, but truthfully, do you care? I don't. Not really. I mean, on an abstract level, I care about the suffering of mankind, and so on. But to be perfectly honest, if someone who is capable of advancing themselves refuses to do so, and decides to live in poverty, ignorance, and hatred of The Man, when they could be The Man, and change things from a standpoint of power, then why should I care? Is their self-righteousness going to feed my family? Are their conspiracies going to put my future kids through college, or help me take over the world? Is their ignorance going to put a roof over our heads? No. I care about my loved ones, me, ensuring the future of my family, and my friends in that order. That caring is the only reason I'm doing this, actually, because I consider many people on here to be my friends, and I'd like them to join me at the top (or at least up a bit).


Originally posted by RANT
It's may be a template for how one may rise on the pyramid, but not all. The pyramid remains. Were we all "at the top" none of us would be "rich" anymore would we? Probably a moot point, since we can't all be "at the top" anyway. Those before us advance from our own efforts to rise among them.


I agree again, to an extent, except that "rich" is an immaterial concept. It applies to intellect, physique, looks, and so forth. During life as a human, there will always be someone who is smarter, richer, better looking, or in better health. That is an undeniable fact, and one which I wholly embrace as being right. That disperity allows for survival of the species and appreciation of things not previously considered. I can read every book possible, 24/7/365(6), and try every method possible of improving my brain power. That doesn't mean I'll ever surpass Steve Hawkins. I can try every trick in the book to increase my wealth, that doesn't mean I'll ever be as rich as Bill Gates. Nor will I ever be as healthy as Arnold Schwartzenegger, nor will I ever be as good looking as Fabio.

But I can be the best that I can be, to my full potential, and I will die happy in the knowledge that I led a full, happy life. I refuse to accept the notion that I shouldn't try, just because can't be the absolute best. For all I know, I might just become the best. And anyone who refuses to try, I have very little sympathy for. Hence my earlier, undisclaimered statement about how the poor choose to be that way.


Originally posted by RANT
Systems are self supporting and reinforcing. Working within the sytem of the NWO (as advocated here) changes nothing but your own station as you push someone else further up, and someone else further down. In the theory anyway.


I take issue with "The System" always being a dirty word. Now, I firmly believe that every system can be improved, somehow, and I believe there are systems out there that are not only unneccesary, but are capable of being abused in terrible ways.
However, just because something is a system, doesn't mean it's wrong. Sometimes a system is there because people found that previously tried things didn't work as well, and so far it's the best thing currently available to meet the most needs.

Even assuming this was a bad system, and needed to change, how are you most likely to be able to change it? As a ragamuffin with no money, no influence, and no real property to your name? Personally, I wouldn't listen to this person because they've already shown to me they aren't even capable of getting their own life together. Why the heck should I trust them with my life, and the life of my family? The exception of course being if I found some true wisdom in their words.

But ceterus paribus, I'm more likley to listen to someone who not only has their life together, but is continually advancing themselves in some way. In physics, I listen to Hawking in lieu of Bob at IHOP, because Hawking has proven himself, and established more credibility. In health, I listen to Schwartzenegger, in lieu of fatty blob-man at work, because Arnold is cut like Adonis, and fatty blob man isn't. In looks listen to Fabio in lieu of pizza-faced Jimbo, because Fabio is on romance novel covers and Jimbo isn't. In matters of money, I listen to Gates, instead of Tanman the homeless bum, because Gates earns over $10,000 a second, and Tanman doesn't. It's simple efficiency of time used. I get the most knowledge from listening to those who are succesful as opposed to those who refuse to be.

That doesn't mean that Bob, Fatty Blob-man, Jimbo, and Tanman have nothing of interest to say, or that they lack knowledge, but rather I'm a lot more inclined to believe someone who has established their credibility in the area they speak about. And as time is our most valuable commodity, and listening takes time, I spend it as efficiently as possible.

So I guess it comes down to "Why?". Why do I want to be on top of this pyramid, or higher up? The answer, I should think, is fairly obvious: the view is better from up there.



posted on Mar, 13 2005 @ 03:34 AM
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You forgot to put in your post that in the 35 years it takes you to save up 1.7 million dollars, granted you dont spend it on the price of life, you will be 65 years old and almost dead. So wtf is the point.

So who cares about self empowerment when people are born so stupidly rich they dont need self empowerment and it will take you until your last breath to say that potentially you could be considered "rich". Do no good when your dead.

Goto whitehouse.gov and look up the social statistics in the United States. The average income is 28,000$ USD. That is what a private makes in the Army. That is pathetic.

Society is screwed and there isnt a great chance no matter how much self empowerment you have, you arent ever going to reach the top of the food chain. Instead you are more likely to be in the 28.000USD range and get by in life while there are people who live so disgustingnly luxurious and dont have to work to maintain their standard of living.

Sorry but I think you can take your self emporment and sit on it. Me, I will live in the house I grew up in. Im 22 years old. My parents who I live with are 50. They worked their entire life and dont plan on stopping until they retire. They had to conform to society to make it because they had no choice. So why should I go out and work? Im not going to. Im not going to take a loan to goto college. Im not going to conform to society, because it isnt fair. Nor will I break a sweat for the price of living.

And people will say "You will live poor if you do nothing". And I will eventually be lead to murdering people.

Else if you are rich, then you dont care. Maybe because I am poor that I have a bleak outlook on Society.


So in the meantime until a million dollars falls out of the sky, Stay away from me. I am unstable and depressed and likely to go Jihad.



[edit on 13-3-2005 by Ritual]

[edit on 13-3-2005 by Ritual]



posted on Mar, 13 2005 @ 06:04 AM
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My dad gave me the book you mentioned for christmas on my 18th birthday, I have to agree with what is said in this thread...IT DOES WORK.My parents follow the same rules as well, and they have a paid off house, 2 cars, and live very comfortably.

@Ritual.....28,000 a year is quite good to start you off really.It can be done with less even.Your outlook is was holds you back.



posted on Mar, 13 2005 @ 07:23 AM
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Time Chance and Circumstance
the 3 things that seperate us all.
man A and man B, both standing at the (metephorical) fork in the road,
man A goes left, man B goes right,
each is faced with a different set of circumstance's 1 good, 1 bad,
the time may be the same, the chance is the route taken, the circumstance, the effect each has.
the outcome will be different.

not trying to shoot holes in your post(as it WILL be beneficial to sum) just adding a different view

while i 1st thought it sounds like a infomercial, many things u say are correct.
but, back to the time,chance circumstance, it is highly unlikely, that both man A and B will be afforded the same chances,(ie:life is different for everyone)

correct me if i am wrong here,.. but u base your happiness, goal in life , by how much wealth u can accumulate???



i have lived on the street, lived the high life,seen the best and worst in people, money will never bring true happiness in life, its just a game some play,



posted on Mar, 13 2005 @ 04:59 PM
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Originally posted by LordBaskettIV
My dad gave me the book you mentioned for christmas on my 18th birthday, I have to agree with what is said in this thread...IT DOES WORK.My parents follow the same rules as well, and they have a paid off house, 2 cars, and live very comfortably.

@Ritual.....28,000 a year is quite good to start you off really.It can be done with less even.Your outlook is was holds you back.


That is the average income of everyone. Rich people are factored into this.

The average income for a family household is 48,000$. I lived in a house that made about 100,000$ growing up and I did not live that rich.

That is pretty pathetic. Considering buying a "home" is about 100,000 - 150,000 for the cheapest. If you mortgage a home you are in debt for the rest of your life so that is out of the question for me personally.

Joining the military I will probably get sent over an IED in haste by some dumb commander. And I would only get paid 30,000 a year. I could goto college after that and get a degree.

But then when I have my degree I would be lucky to find a job that pays over 50,000. I mean if the average income of the everyone in the US is only 28,000 that must mean there arent many good jobs.

So no point in doing anything I dont want to do. I dont think it is that worth it.

The only thing I mostly do all day is computer programming, and playing video games. I own a nice computer, own clothes, shelter and food. And if I want to goto a movie or buy a CD I can. Or if I want to go on a vacation once a year I can.

So screw society and the rat race. Everything I can learn in college is available on the internet.

Ill play powerball once a week.



posted on Mar, 14 2005 @ 04:59 AM
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maybe u should clear ur debt 1st BEFORE you start saving just so ur not wasting money on interest?

thats what im trying to do. All my other money is invested in books



posted on Mar, 14 2005 @ 06:08 AM
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Originally posted by Ritual
You forgot to put in your post that in the 35 years it takes you to save up 1.7 million dollars, granted you dont spend it on the price of life, you will be 65 years old and almost dead. So wtf is the point.


Well, for one thing, 65 is not "almost dead". For many, it's only 2/3 to 3/4 of their life. If you live till 90, how are you going to pay to live 25 years? Do you want to be some old fart who has to worry when the price of your generic raisin bran goes up 10 cents, because Social Security doesn't even give you enough to pay rent?

My father is 65 now. I'd hardly consider him "almost dead". He's still working, quite active in his community, goes travelling with my mom around the world occasionally, and still has time to tip back the scotch with his son.

However, because he did not have the luxury of time when starting his savings, he will have to work until 68 just to get by for another 20-30 years. He started his savings about 11 years ago, and though it's never too late to start saving, it is too late to become a millionaire from it.

Additionally, with greater and greater advancements in medical technology, if someone keeps themselves fit, their lifespan can be expected to go on longer and longer down the road. I myself expect to live past 100.


Originally posted by Ritual
So who cares about self empowerment when people are born so stupidly rich they dont need self empowerment and it will take you until your last breath to say that potentially you could be considered "rich". Do no good when your dead.


(shrug) I don't know what to say to that. Why bother eating, when someone else out there has a gourmet chef to cook for them? Why bother going to work, because someone has a better job. Ye gods! If I never did something, just because someone else had an easier start then I did, I'd have shot myself as soon as I learned how to hold a gun.


Originally posted by Ritual
Sorry but I think you can take your self emporment and sit on it.


Oh, I will. I will. And when I'm finished sitting on my ideals, they will have hatched into a tangible value 100x their worth. Will you be able to say the same?


Originally posted by Ritual
Me, I will live in the house I grew up in. Im 22 years old. My parents who I live with are 50.


Ahhhh, okay, no further explanation neccesary. I had the same
attitude when I lived off my parents' dime. You simply have not had to worry about fending for yourself yet.

If and when you ever move out on your own, find someone who
you want to spend the rest of your life with, and possibly
start a family, then my words will make more sense.

If you live with them till they die, and remain living in that house, more power to you. Though I'm curious about something...


Originally posted by Ritual
So why should I go out and work? Im not going to. Im not going to take a loan to goto college. Im not going to conform to society, because it isnt fair. Nor will I break a sweat for the price of living.


I'm curious about a few things, such as, if you do not work, how will you pay for food, utilities, property taxes, car, gas, etc...? Or are they leaving you enough money to pay for it for the rest of your life?

And if they are leaving you enough to pay for it, I wonder where that money came from? You don't suppose, perhaps, that they saved it up, do you? So that they would have something to pass on to their son?


Moving on...


Originally posted by cranialspunge
Time Chance and Circumstance...

(snip)

...many things u say are correct.
but, back to the time,chance circumstance, it is highly unlikely, that both man A and B will be afforded the same chances,(ie:life is different for everyone)


You read my story, right? How many chances did I get?

Did I grow up in a nice neighborhood with supportive friends? No, instead my friends were sometimes chalk outlines in my front yard. Did I grow up with a nice allowance each week, for something like taking out the trash? No. In fact, any money I got I had to earn with odd jobs around the neighborhood, and as soon as I was $15, I got a "real" job that used paychecks. Was it a sweet deal that my mom or dad hooked me up with? No, it was a crappy job mopping floors, cleaning toilets, and taking out the trash, at McDonald's... worse still, it was the McDonald's right by my school at the time. Did I later get sent to college with a several boxes of school supplies, new clothes, textbooks, computer, TV, and a meal ticket? No. I paid for my college through scholarships that I Worked my arse off to get, and when I moved into my dorm, I had a small sea-chest that held all my belongings in the world. (I still have that sea-chest to this day). I also worked between classes and studying, so that I could do cool things, like eat. Did I get a sweet job offer from my college experience? No. I got such a bad case of Mononucleosis that I had to take a medical withdrawal (which in turn, lost me my part time job, my scholarships, etc.) and eventually got myself well enough to go back to work and get an apartment with a friend, who let his pregnant fiance move in rent-free. They then proceeded to steal everything I owned (except the sea-chest, which was at my girlfriend's at the time), everything I had managed to accumulate through my hard work, and ran off to somewhere...I'll never know where. I got to be homeless. Did some kind-hearted soul take me in and give me a home and hot meals? Hell no. I worked. I found a secret place to hide my money. I kept myself clean (physically and drug-wise), and showed up every single night to start my shift. I worked until I had enough to actually have a roof over my head, but for about six months, I lived on the street, and the only person who knew was my hiring manager.

No one ever gave me leg up. Ever. The only blessing I ever got over certain other people, is that I am neither mentally nor physically impaired. So this whole prospect of "bad luck" and "victim of circumstance" really doesn't wash with me unless the circumstances are pretty spectacular. So in answer to your question, unless someone's chances cause mental or physical impairment, the only thing holding them back is themselves and a defeatist attitude.


Originally posted by cranialspunge
correct me if i am wrong here,.. but u base your happiness, goal in life , by how much wealth u can accumulate???


No, I'm already happy. I've got an amazing woman with whom to spend the rest of my life with, whom I love deeply. I've got a pretty good connection with my family, and a great relationship with my father. I'm the one child of theirs that never begged for a single dime. I've got a great sense of self worth, and a healthy appetite for knowledge for which I have multiple sources to feed from.

None of those things require wealth.

But it would be nice, in addition to happiness, to also have financial security, for my family and myself, and be able to enjoy certain luxuries, such as travelling. I'd love to spend the first five years of retirement just living in different villas around Europe, for maybe six months at a time, to really get to know the culture, take in the sites, the history, the museums. I'd really like to have a good house, on our own property, that I can pass down to my future kids to argue over.


Originally posted by cranialspunge
"...money will never bring true happiness in life, its just a game some play,


I agree. Money does not bring true happiness. But it sure helps. A lot. I can find happiness in a sunset, or a cloud. But it'd also be nice to find happiness in providing a nice house, plenty of food, nice clothes, and a quality education for my future children. As for it being a game... (shrug) So what? Show me something that isn't a game. I like games. I especially like to win them.



posted on Mar, 14 2005 @ 06:36 AM
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Originally posted by RANT




My question then from an ideological standpoint would be even if theoretically any person can do this, can all? I think not.

The point being, someone has to lose don't they? At least in this capitalist system we've established these rules only apply in. So as far as being an apology for the consolidation of wealth and power (trying to keep this grounded in NWO theory), it's really not. It's may be a template for how one may rise on the pyramid, but not all. The pyramid remains. Were we all "at the top" none of us would be "rich" anymore would we? Probably a moot point, since we can't all be "at the top" anyway. Those before us advance from our own efforts to rise among them.

Systems are self supporting and reinforcing. Working within the sytem of the NWO (as advocated here) changes nothing but your own station as you push someone else further up, and someone else further down. In the theory anyway.

Torches, pitchforks and guillotines are quicker anyway.


Wrong Rant.
Me becomming wealthy does not force someone else into poverty. The fact that you think so shows a remarkable and surprising lack of understanding.
And there is no reason why everyone cant use the basic princples the libra posted to retire wealthy.
The only reason that basic fiscal dicsipline does not work for all americans is becuase not all Americans apply it. Thats it, the only reason.
True not everyone can attain wealth on a bill gates level but so what? That does not mean that everyone can not starting from zero retire wealthy, which was really what the principles the libra posted were about.
The sad thing is Rant you probably honestly believe the only way one person can become wealthy is if another becomes poor.



posted on Mar, 14 2005 @ 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
Wrong Rant.
Me becomming wealthy does not force someone else into poverty. The fact that you think so shows a remarkable and surprising lack of understanding.

...The sad thing is Rant you probably honestly believe the only way one person can become wealthy is if another becomes poor.


I agree that from the most limited of perspectives one may apply a very retarded view of the world ignoring all integral relationships and think "profit" is a matter of spontaneous creation, with no loss of energy or negative economic impact elsewhere...

But I choose not to be retarded.



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