George W. Bush's Remarkable Legacy ......

Hate the source, hate the poster but understand the message, although he is not my favorite (spends to much) he is proving the critics wrong just as Reagan did, 15 years later we know Reagan was right, in 15 years I hope we can say the same for Dubya!


George W. Bush's Remarkable Legacy


There are only a few of our 43 presidents – Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, FDR and Reagan come immediately to mind – whose legacies are emblazoned in the glorious history of our embryonic "experiment" in democracy. After only 200 years, we are now recognized as the most generous, powerful, wealthy country on earth – and the envy (and therefore animosity) of all others.

The Contagion of Freedom

But something funny happened on the way to history. While the liberal establishment and its de facto employees in the left-wing media were screeching, writing, distorting and contorting, millions upon millions of people throughout the world were watching that history unfold before their eyes.

The results have been staggering, starting with the resoundingly victorious re-election of President Bush. Then came the following:


In December, a crooked election in Ukraine was overturned and a pro-Western candidate became prime minister.

In January, the Palestinian Authority held its first free elections ever, with the elections commission saying that 70 percent of the 1.28 million registered voters cast their ballots.

Last month, Saudi Arabia held its first local free election and its leaders promised that future elections would include the votes of women.

Also in February, after the assassination of the former prime minister of Lebanon, a spontaneous and unprecedented uprising demanded that Syria end its occupation, the puppet government resigned, Syria has now agreed to withdrawal, and Lebanese citizens are now demanding their own free elections.

In the same month, Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak acceded to having free elections in the upcoming presidential election.
After all the naysaying and nitpicking and skepticism and cynicism, it turns out that Bush was right.


The Real Vision Thing

As the president noted in his Inaugural Address: "We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. The best hope for peace in our world is the expansion of freedom in all the world."



George W. Bush's Remarkable Legacy

[edit on 11-3-2005 by edsinger]

[edit on 11-3-2005 by edsinger]

Ah yes, democracy at the barrel of a gun. Nice, buddy, real nice.

Unlike Reagan, Bush has done this through unnecessary means. You can argue all day about the spending of a drunken sailor days of Reagan, but we had no major operation to bring democracy to places. (And the Reagan years are starting to pick up tarnish due to things coming back to bite them in the butt. (Afghanistan for one...Russia for two...))

Bush believes that bringing democracy to those who do not want it is good. Whether or not you are pro-war, you all must agree on this. These people have no will to struggle for democracy. When did they rise up and overcome? I disagree with going into a country and "freeing" them when they do not want it. We fought for our freedom. France fought for their freedom. Poland fought for their freedom. Iraq...not so much. Afghanistan...not so much.

And you cannot tell me the thought is not there. Foreigners know that a group of people can be strong enough to change your state. After all, I'm pretty sure they know our history and Europe's history. (Or at least enough to be able to comprehend freedom.) They know about rebelling against status quo and revolutions. After all, what did Mohammed do? He rose up and conquered.

And let's assume they have never even heard a word out of religion. How about nature telling them things? How about ants? One ant cannot accomplish things alone. But, with enough followers they can conquer anything they want. They can move things. They can kill things. They can overcome.

So, them doing nothing about their station in life tells me one thing. They do not want to change anything. If things were so bad, they would have fled or tried their damnedest to change it. But they did neither, save the Kurds. I have a serious problem with us "freeing" folks who show no initiative.

And besides that, I think they are not ready for it. The mindset of many folks in that area would not help nurture their freedom. I believe it would turn back into the same old thing. I don't think it can last without the appropriate attitudes...which sadly, I don't think exists...yet. Maybe it will change in the drop of hat, but I'm skeptical.

The other countries that we have not invaded feel as though they have the gun already pointed at their heads. (Except for one, Lebanon) After all, Bush has made it clear that he won't stop. They have already seen the fall of the second most powerful nation in the Middle East.

The only thing I can say positves about is Lebanon. The people have finally got the right idea. And I would not have any problems with us helping them be free. Hell, I would even applaud Bush for that. In fact, if I wasn't already eyeballing OCS, I would sign up after I graduate. But, I think the situation is not due to Bush's plan. This situation was an unforseeable plus for us in the Middle East.

Ultimately, I do not think history will be terribly nice to Bush. I think it might be a stalemate, but I don't think anyone will be saying that he was the greatest president in this era. (Post Cold War) Nor do I believe anyone will say he was the worst. (Outside of politics as usual)

But I love that one quote from his speech.

We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. The best hope for peace in our world is the expansion of freedom in all the world

His speech and his policies are paradoxical. You are spreading peace by starting wars. He wants everyone to be free but overthrows a government that the people obviously do not want changed. You cannot hold the world hostage to spread peace and liberty. You will just aggrevate people and perhaps bring harm to yourself.

I would love to believe this will all work out for the better. After all, we do not need another 911. But I have personal doubts of the effectiveness of this approach. I would love for them to prove me wrong, but that is still many years away before true proof is available...

Well , we wont know until 10 years from now but it seems that the middle east sure is changing as we speak, war with Iran is not likely as I have said from the beginning. If we could just get the Europeans on board and china via the Europeans, then war would be unnecessary. As I posted before Iran vs Turkey is the issue and it is a battle withing Islam, and with the Spanish mullahs coming out with the fatwa against Bin Ladin, it is a starrt...

And that is pretty interesting. Iran vs Turkey...somehow, I don't think Iran is currently Turkey's target. I know that Turkey dislikes the Kurds though. I personally feel that it will be Iran and Israel going at it. After all, we just told them we would back them up.

But there are positives out there that look promising. The Spanish Muslims, Lebanon, and earning confidence in this operation, which may be able to pull off getting more countries involved. But I think right now is the most delicate moment and will be for the next two years. After two years, I believe we will be able to accurately gauge how well this operation is doing.

Inheriting a $7.7 trillion dollar debt is not something future generations are soon to forget.

The estimated population of the United States is 295,819,679 so each citizen's share of this debt is $26,223.82.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $2.31 billion per day since September 30, 2004!

Debt Clock

Really, save the "legacy creation" stuff for after office. That's what Presidential libraries and state funerals are for.

PS - You don't like Bush remember? :shk:

[edit on 13-3-2005 by RANT]

Yeah I forgot, all 7.7 Trillion of it is Bush's huh?

Like Bush? Yes Like him like I liked Reagan Not even close but he is gaining ground fast and more so everytime he pisses you liberals off.

His Dad? Couldn't stand him, but I did vote for him once....1988 only.


Somehow I knew RANT would jump in this one...






Iran vs Turkey is the battle WITHIN Islam is what I mean.....It is the battle for the future of the whole religion.....


a secular state vs a Islamic theocracy.

I think he talking to me and Rant is correct. I despise Bush, but I believe in giving credit where it is due. And things are shaping up in the Middle East in a way that I could not imagine. I may disagree with his tactics, but either some of them are working or he has a Closeau type luck streak in all of this.

Through it all, I also feel that this can all change in the drop of a hat. Like I said earlier, this is the most delicate moment in our operation. But I do not hope for it so Bush can look bad.

Originally posted by OXmanK
I despise Bush, but I believe in giving credit where it is due. And things are shaping up in the Middle East in a way that I could not imagine. I may disagree with his tactics, but either some of them are working or he has a Closeau type luck streak in all of this.

Through it all, I also feel that this can all change in the drop of a hat. Like I said earlier, this is the most delicate moment in our operation. But I do not hope for it so Bush can look bad.

Wow you have officially lost the turdblossom label in my mind, I know you can hate the man and his policies but what you just said does not fit the title and I am sorry I called it that way......


I don't understand how things are going to end up but I do know that against the odds Bush stood his ground and even went on the offensive and you can go back to my oldest posts and you can see that I said now is the time and to do it from a strong stance, that is the only thing the Middle Eastern countries understand...

Even if you hate Bush , hope for the best as the deeds are already done and now support the troops and hope they can come home soon..

Thanks and sorry for me thinking you were a turdblossom. You clearly are not.

And this is how I seperate the slight liberal from the nutjob liberal.

Hate the man - fine.

Hate his policy - fine.

Both are well within your rights.

Not giving credit out of spite and hate is another thing.

Regardless of the means, one must admire the current trend. In 2000, could anyone have said in 5 years that Iraq would be holding free elections, much less Lebanon being withdrawn from and SAUDI ARABIA allowing WOMEN to vote?

It's unreal. Bush is not getting credit for this, and after all the dust settles, many of the worlds trouble most brutal regimes will be thrown out in favor of democracy.

Yeah if you are old enough to remember the Reagan years and what the leftist turdblossom assessment of him was then, even now they can not deny that he was proven right..he was right on most things.



Lets hope the same can be said for Bush in 10 years.

Some folks seem to believe that democracy in and of itself is an acceptable result for anything leading to it.

I don't think so- but I'm biased. The world really didn't need just one more token democracy to prove anything. Now, in Afghanistan and Iraq the world gets two. If democracy is the goal then salutes are in order.

This thread, being about Bush (W) legacy let's stay with that. What will this legacy be? I have always believed that Bush (W) was in search of history and would stop at nothing to achieve it.

When does blaming Clinton stop? Bush (W) has been in 6 years is he responsible yet? Apparently not from the posters so far.

In the final analysis (20 years down the road) who gets blamed for an $8 trillion dollar deficit? Can we still blame Clinton or do we get to leapfrog back to Carter? Can't blame Reagan- he is ghaud-like.

So, when Bush (W) leaves office:

$8-10 trillion will hang heavily upon the American taxpayers-
the military machine will be worn down considerably-
America will stand alone as a super power-
gasoline (at the pump) in America will be $3.50+ -
the middle class will have shrunken-
Public and personal debt will be at high levels previously thought unimaginable-
thousands of young Americans will be dead from foreign wars-
And least we forget a new oligarchy will be in place in Afghanistan and Iraq calling themselves democracies

Some accomplishments indeed. Nowhere on the list is anything about decreasing terrorism or improving the lot of the ubiquitous 'average' American.

Not liberal viewpoints.

(btw- what 'Legacy' does Jefferson have other than Louisiana? Recession, 1812?)
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Now, I can definitly debate the Reagan legacy just on the reasons above.

What we used to defeat the Russians has bit us on the butts. We payrolled several "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan. They turned into the Taliban and several members of Al-Qaeda. Skip ahead fifteen years, we are going into Afghanistan to remove the Taliban from power and to stomp out many of those people we trained. And thanks to our training, they knew where and how to hit us.

But it does not stop with them, what about the current war we are in. It is mostly thanks to us giving Iraq several not-so-nice weapons we gave them. And we did this why? To battle another country we did not like. (And no, I am not going into Iran-Contra because we do not know enough about it and probably never will.) Skip seven years later, we are booting their butts out of Kuwait. Skip eleven years after that, we are in major ground battles with these people looking for many of the weapons we gave them.

But the biggest claim to fame is the fall of Russia. And I have two major beefs about it.

1: The massive debt accrued by this.
2: The current stability of Russia.

The debt is the debt. You cannot spin it.

The state of Russia is poor. They are not stable. Do you ever wonder why their weapons are turning up places? It is all thanks to the rapid change in Russia which happened thanks partly to us. We can all be happy about the collaspe of Communism. But they have such a weak structure right now. And if we look at it with pure utilitarianism eyes, what happened is bad. Their people had to use a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread and a diet orange Shasta.

But, that is nowhere near the biggest problem. It is the weapons that have left since the collapse. We didn't have to worry about Russian nukes because of Assured Mutual Destruction. But, now we have to worry about them in the hands of other countries. Not to mention their war machines...it is a huge problem that we are going to face. After all, they found a mig buried in the sand in Iraq.

You can argue whether or not it was for the best, but you cannot deny what is going on there thanks to what we did.

But, this can all be dismissed as, "Well, we had no idea this was going to happen" or "Hindsight is 20/20." (And probably will be.) But it is his fault. The only one that we can debate is the Russian concern. But the other two are not. And the only type of debate is whether it was worth it. (With both sides holding very valid concerns.)

Originally posted by OXmanK
Now, I can definitly debate the Reagan legacy . . .

Keep your distance from me

The Great Ghaud of conservatism is blameless.

Iran-Contra was a result of Truman and Roosevelt.

Lebanon a result of Carter and Johnson.

Panama was clearly Carter- all the propaganda was needed to overcome the sinister tricks of Woodrow Wilson and FDR.

Hoover was right- things are looking better
.

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Well Russia is a problem, but is most likely an ally in the coming years,


The deficit although increasing under Bush, is not all his, lets see Reagan had about 2.5 trillion of it, Clinton another 2.5, and Bush the rest(guesses but in the ballpark).

The legacy of democracy in the Middle East? Well just 2 short years ago the leftist view was they could not handle nor understand it, and yet we have since found out they do desire it. So they vote anti-west governments in, so what? That will isolate them further.


Time will tell, but I will say this, I did not like Bush in 2000 although I voted for him...........I like him much more now, but he is still not a Reagan, not even close.........but he is gaining fast.

Originally posted by JoeDoaksHoover was right- things are looking better

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Your right about that one!







At least they are now!