Tic-Tac = CIA drone ?

I view daily www.thedrive.com... and nationalinterest.org... for the latest in both current and historical military articles. In the latter, I was reading an Iranian F-14 pilot's expoits (nationalinterest.org...) ...

... when I came across this nationalinterest.org... which suggests that "The [Iranian] task force encountered what it believed were CIA drones with “astonishing flight characteristics.”

The UAVs could jam radars and disrupt interceptors’ navigation systems. They flew “outside the atmosphere” at speeds of up to Mach 10. They could hover. Flying at night, they emitted a telltale blue light that led to their nickname: “luminous objects.”

“In several cases … F-14s faced them but were unable to operate their armament systems properly,” Taghvaee wrote. One Tomcat taking off to intercept a luminous object on Jan. 26, 2012 mysteriously exploded, killing both crewmen.

This adds more fuel to the decades-old debate of whether so-called 'UFOs' are actually advanced military test vehicles.

Also, prior mention of UFOs in ATS has had to do with manmade "plasma balls". Along the same lines, physicist Dr. Matti Pitkanen has proposed a "Plasmoid lifeform" => www.stealthskater.com...

Off-topic, Matti also offered a Arecibo crop-circle "decoding" at => www.stealthskater.com... .

(Matti's TGD-physics is an evolution from John Archibald Wheeler's GD and unites not only General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics but also Consciousness. It proposes that dark-energy is responsible for remote mental phenomena like ESP, precognition, remote-viewing, Out-of-Body Experiences, etc. Extremely mathematical; but I archived articles for the layman at the above link.)

>believed to be

No proof then, why extrapolate it to an area off the coast of California?

What would the CIA be doing flying their drones in the middle of domestic ocean?

originally posted by: Archivalist
>believed to be

No proof then, why extrapolate it to an area off the coast of California?

What would the CIA be doing flying their drones in the middle of domestic ocean?

Testing.
What else ?

"The UAVs could jam radars and disrupt interceptors’ navigation systems. They flew “outside the atmosphere” at speeds of up to Mach 10. They could hover. Flying at night, they emitted a telltale blue light that led to their nickname: “luminous objects.”

With capabilities such as these why would any government not be exploiting them to the fullest and putting the fear of God up their enemies? To me, secret tech is only 'secret' in the development stage, once it is deployed it is a secret no longer and then it would be employed to it's fullest devastation.

Why would the Iranians think they were CIA when this kind of stuff has been happening for years?

Hey towel heads, wake up, you never heard of aliens?

Tic-Tac = ET

a reply to: spiritualarchitect

Hey towel heads

How very enlightened?!

a reply to: spiritualarchitect

Why would the Iranians think they were CIA when this kind of stuff has been happening for years?

Great question. Any time anything goes the slightest bit sideways in too many countries, the cries of "CIA! CIA!" can be heard.

Good gravy, the company isn't the only intel outfit in this world. Plenty of mayhem-bringers who aren't formally employed by intel agencies as well.

Hard to believe something as apparently advanced as these objects are a product of human technology.

Cheers

a reply to: Gothmog

I've noticed that the common explanation for the "Tic-Tacs" is to call them "drones." I suspect that is done because few want to credit them with pilots because they display massless capabilities and pun intended, that manner of maneuvering does not fly with flesh and blood remaining intact with such maneuvers allowed. Of course, allowing those maneuvers completely avoids the likely possibility that the insides of those craft are also in a massless state. Given that condition, there is little reason to disallow human or other entity) pilots.

At any rate, the bar has been lowered to almost allow polite discussions of such craft and connected possibilities with the aircraft buffs here on ATS. It took too for the ATS credo of DENY IGNORANCE to kick in.

a reply to: stealthskater

UAVs??? The UAVs were UFOs...Apparently they couldn't bring themselves to say that...

If those Iranians totally reject the idea of UFOs they would then need something to credit those encounters to...And who else but the U.S. military...

originally posted by: fromtheskydown
With capabilities such as these why would any government not be exploiting them to the fullest and putting the fear of God up their enemies? To me, secret tech is only 'secret' in the development stage, once it is deployed it is a secret no longer and then it would be employed to it's fullest devastation.

It wouldn't make sense to fly extremely high-tech experimental craft over enemy-controlled territory as a general rule, because if the enemy shot one down or if a simple malfunction of loss of communication with the remote pilot brought it down in enemy territory, then the enemy would get their hands on the advanced tech and the advantage could be lost as soon as it's reverse engineered.

Besides, I think some of these things have only deception/distraction/confusion value as discussed in this link:

The Navy's Secretive And Revolutionary Program To Project False Fleets From Drone Swarms

The advanced electronic warfare program uses swarms in the air and sea to cooperatively fool a wide variety of sensors dispersed over a large area.

There are specific applications for such a capability but if it's overused, the enemy would become familiar with it and it would lose its effectiveness when you really need it. To really fool the enemy, they need to not be familiar with it, so, that means you can't be using it all the time, and there's not really a need to use it all the time.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: fromtheskydown
With capabilities such as these why would any government not be exploiting them to the fullest and putting the fear of God up their enemies? To me, secret tech is only 'secret' in the development stage, once it is deployed it is a secret no longer and then it would be employed to it's fullest devastation.

It wouldn't make sense to fly extremely high-tech experimental craft over enemy-controlled territory as a general rule, because if the enemy shot one down or if a simple malfunction of loss of communication with the remote pilot brought it down in enemy territory, then the enemy would get their hands on the advanced tech and the advantage could be lost as soon as it's reverse engineered.

Besides, I think some of these things have only deception/distraction/confusion value as discussed in this link:

The Navy's Secretive And Revolutionary Program To Project False Fleets From Drone Swarms

The advanced electronic warfare program uses swarms in the air and sea to cooperatively fool a wide variety of sensors dispersed over a large area.

There are specific applications for such a capability but if it's overused, the enemy would become familiar with it and it would lose its effectiveness when you really need it. To really fool the enemy, they need to not be familiar with it, so, that means you can't be using it all the time, and there's not really a need to use it all the time.

You make some valid points, it's just my tendency to think that if the US government had a vastly superior advantage over its enemy, it would run riot with it.



Anyway, slighlty at a tangent but still on topic.
Two pics from Google Earth...

Tic-Tacs?

The location expanded...


Any thoughts?

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect

Hey towel heads...

Nice.

Let's hope you never meet your beloved aliens, because what would you call THEM to their faces?

I shudder to think.

originally posted by: ConfusedBrit

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect

Hey towel heads...

Nice.

Let's hope you never meet your beloved aliens, because what would you call THEM to their faces?

I shudder to think.

Maybe their culture values honest candor over political correctness.

originally posted by: Archivalist
>believed to be

No proof then, why extrapolate it to an area off the coast of California?

What would the CIA be doing flying their drones in the middle of domestic ocean?

Navy vet here. We test alllll kinds of stuff out in the middle of the ocean. Why? Because we're less likely to have observers.

a reply to: fromtheskydown

That's obviously a paper plane

As I mentioned in my beginning post, Time Magazine's 'The War Zone' (www.thedrive.com...) is an excellent source of military-related information. Tyler Rogoway et al wrote a series of articles investigating the "Tic-Tac" UFO sightings. I assembled all of them into a single file (item #64) www.stealthskater.com... . Among other things, they were investigating whether this was a test conducted by Intelligence agencies to see if the Navy could discriminate between "plasma balls" from real objects using modern AESA radar. Tom Mahood (who rose to fame [or infamy depending if you are 'pro' or 'con'] on exposing flaws in Bob Lazar's education] said that the orbs that Lazar claims were UFOs were actually particle beam tests (see www.stealthskater.com... ).

(Rogoway also wrote interesting pieces on (item #63) Unidentified Submerged Objects (USOs - think of the movie 'The Abyss'] ) and "hauntings" at the Navy's 'Top Gun' base (item #65) on the Military.htm page. And if you want to take a break from such serious topics, read "The Mating of Man With Machine" (item #36) that describes the growing pains of learning the fly the F-14 Phantom.)

I always wondered if yesterday "foo fighters" were actually a phenomenon created by those WWII-era gigantic propeller engines that created such immense electrostatic fields. The disappearance of the foos seemed to coincide with the arrival of jet engines. I've archived some of the early published UFO articles/books at www.stealthskater.com... .

My original post was prompted by a statement by a F-14 Iranian ace pilot (which was published in the excellent nationalinterest.org... ). The Shah of Iran was holding the United States "hostage" (in effect) for allowing oil to flow freely through the Strait of Hormuz. In exchange for that guarantee, he wanted/demanded the latest in U.S military hardware.

The Soviet Mig-25 was designed as a high-speed interceptor to combat the B-58 Hustler bomber (which was never produced). The Shah was not convinced that the F-15 Eagle with its semi-active radar-guided AIM-7 Sparrow could intercept the Mig-25. So he demanded the F-14 Tomcat with its terminally-guided AIM-54 Phoenix (in spite that in simulation the F-15 had no problem downing a Mig-25.) He even wanted a SR-71 Blackbird. So this is how the Iranians got hold of such modern U.S. military gear (see www.stealthskater.com... )

(The F-14 was designed to intercept Russian bombers before they got close enough to release their weapons to attack Navy ships. The AIM-54 had a 25-g turning rate which was sufficient to engage bombers. Its ECCM was adept at "burning through" enemy ECM. But the AIM-54 was not good at homing in on maneuvering enemy fighters. Over time, the Iranians began using the F-14s' Track-while-Scan' (TWS) radar as a poor man's AWACS. The F-14's movable swept-wings increased its weight compared to the F-15. The rear RIO officer also added to the weight. Its thrust-to-weight ratio made it an inferior dogfighter compared to the F-15.)

Regarding keeping secrets out of the public domain, it happens all the time. Former Lockheed Skunk Works chief engineer & CEO Ben Rich once said: "We have things in the Nevada desert that you and the best minds in the World won't even be able to conceive that we have for 30 or 40 years and won't be made public for another 50." (Which begs the question "Who monitors the Monitors?"

I saw a PBS/NOVA documentary that featured the first use of proximity fuzes on anti-aircraft shells used in WWII. Now the Navy AA gunners didn't have to make a direct hit on Japanese planes. The vacuum tube-based fuze had to survive a 10,000-g firing. But their existence was not made "public" until years-and-years afterwards. (More PBS/NOVA articles are archived at www.stealthskater.com... ).

The NSA monitors every feasible form of communication. If anything is seen that violates National Security (excepting that which is disseminated for disinformation/counter-intel purposes), it is IMMEDIATELY deleted/censored. Which makes me wonder about anything so-called 'Secret' that I read on the Internet.

I archived some UFO-related videos at www.stealthskater.com... . More can be seen in you create a movie-DVD using the files at www.stealthskater.com... . This site was started 20 years. Along the way, I'm sure that I've archived stuff back then that should be erased today. (At one time I was naïve enough to think that the Internet was like a UPI/AP news source.) Feel free to use any of the material in your own websites.

a reply to: stealthskater

The one Navy Commander say the a disturbance in the water RIGHT before seeing the tic tac

i say that was a sub launching a new gen drone that has some interesting flight modes



let me ask you a quick question, would and ENTIRE fleet let i believe he said 80 unidentified get hear the convoy then you have a new thing coming.

fly ONE single aircraft at a naval carrier group and see what happens, and if you dont respond to them you will get shot out of the sky. Someone up high made sure aircraft with actual arms didn't go into the air so that there was no way the tic tac could get shot at.

and thats why i think they asked about load outs

Mysterious Black Triangle craft have been observed for decades (www.stealthskater.com... . Some of these (like the "pumpkinseed") are cloaked in the notorious Black Budget (www.stealthskater.com... or ....pdf ). If they are achieving some sort of anti-gravity with plasma, I would think that would light up a radar screen like a Christmas tree. (In fact, you wouldn't even need to illuminate an area with active radar. Just have a passive detector.) Maybe that's why (assuming they do exist) they have limited (if any) military value.

Many of the Black Triangles are observed with lights at the three vertices of the Triangle (sometimes there is a large one at the center). Whether they serve a purpose in the propulsion is unknown. Edgar Fouche maintains that some of them exploit a loophole in Einstein's General Relativity by circulating high-temperature mercury under high-pressure.

Lazar said that the 3 "gravity-A" amplifiers in the 'Sport Model' UFO rotated (www.stealthskater.com... ). And that the assembly that they were mounted on also rotated at around 7.5 Hz. (He didn't give the rotation speed of the individual amplifiers nor the wavelength of the waveguide that emerged at the top of the craft.)

The 3 individual segments of the unique quantum laser lens in the UNITEL craft also rotated as well as the entire lens assembly (see the book extract at www.stealthskater.com... ). The UNITEL craft seemed to operate like a StarTrek tractor beam in reverse by projecting a mini-blackhole in front of it. In his later talks, Lazar said something similar about how UFOs seem to be slightly unstable in atmospheric flight as if they are flying toward some gravity distortion. (The UNITEL owners were convinced that their observation of the teardrop-shaped craft was a deliberate demonstration => www.stealthskater.com... ).

Area-51 et all are all well known by now and observed by spy satellites. You would have to hide something inside a mountain to conceal any R&D work (or in something like the SyFy tv series 'Warehouse-13'). But then how would you test it in the open? A better place would be submerged in a lake or the ocean. That might explain the Navy's USO sightings (item #63 on www.stealthskater.com... ).

The U.S. Navy's three 'Seawolf' submarines are the most expensive ever built. Like other military equipment, they used to have their own public-relations website. But that has now been taken down for national security reasons. My imagination lets me wonder if they are so "secret" because they are transporting equipment to-and-from undersea UFO/USO research facilities.

Regarding the earlier explanation for the UNITEL craft achieving propulsion like a "StarTrek tractor beam in reverse by projecting a mini-blackhole in front", I'm guessing that this would entail utilizing the virtual particles in the Zero-Point Energy field. Einstein once wondered if the vacuum in Outer Space was really devoid of anything. It turns out that it contains zillions of virtual particles and anti-particles constantly annihilating each other. Nobel Laureate Richard Feynman once computed that a "beaker full of empty space" contains enough potential energy to vaporize all of Earth's ocean. The Casmir Effect is one experimental validation of the ZPE.

But engineering the ZPE has been described as impossible for all practical purposes by leading experts. (And maybe that is a good thing if the ZPE is what constitutes the fabric of space-time itself.) Perhaps the UNITEL craft sought to "extract" these virtual particles long enough to create a temporary mini-black hole that would appear anywhere the quantum laser lens was aimed. (Note that I am not getting into interstellar navigation through Macro Quantum Tunneling/Entanglement or Bob Lazar's delta configuration of folding space-time here. That is an entirely different topic.)

The original UNITEL book is at www.stealthskater.com... . (This preceded Paul Kirsch's book noted below.) The patented lens was also to be used in UNITEL's HOLO-1 quantum holographic computer which would be in the craft. As described in the book, the three rotating sections in the lens were to be 1-to-3 atoms thick and made using Molecular Beam Epitaxy (MBE) fabrication technology at the University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC) MicroPhysics Lab (formerly the U.S. Army Advance Materials Research lab which was responsible for innovations like night vision optics). To make a 5-ft diameter lens would require 1.7 years. And then according to UNITEL CEO Larry Maurer, it would have to be shipped to San Diego to be mounted in a special titanium frame.

Larry was trying to get $7MM funding for this. But investors were wary because much of this was unproven physics. Larry later admitted that much of the initial investment would be used to make the machines that would later be used to make the actual lens. That may not be so farfetched. I used to wear contact lenses before my cataract operation. Years ago I read where manufacturing technology had succeeded in making machines that were able to make silicon-free contact lenses. And how long have contact lenses been used?

Dr. Matti Pitkanen's Topological GeometroDynamic (TGD) physics (as referred to earlier) was a major improvement on John Archibald Wheeler's GD. TGD replaces the ZPE field with Zero Energy Ontology (ZEO). Using that, Matti calculates much less potential energy. There is no law in Physics that prevents a reversed Arrow-of-Time (i.e., Future=>Present=>Past). But we don't see that in our ordinary lives. However, TGD does allow that on a quantum basis. This gets into Minkowski and Hilbert spaces with Past and Future "lightcones" (en.wikipedia.org... ). Apparently all you have to do to "see" the Future is get near a massive gravitational field. I've always had problems reconciling that with free will. But I don't have the required mathematical skills to understand it.

One of Wheeler's graduate students was Feynman himself. Another was Hugh Everett of parallel universes fame (www.stealthskater.com... ). Everett's thesis (using quantum statistical mechanics mathematics) proved the possibility. But many physicists interpret the results as possible histories rather than actual alternate universes. So is the "Yellow Book"/"Red Book" (www.stealthskater.com... ) allegedly given to us by "Them" (E.T.) that shows holographic images of past events and future possibilities. (This was the theme in the movie "Paycheck" with Ben Affleck and Uma Thurman.)

Folklore says that a copy of the "Yellow Book" is stored in the bowels of the Hoover Dam, underneath the Denver Airport, and in the underground mall in Washington, DC. I find that hard to believe. Why not in the "Blue Room"/"Hangar 8" at WPAFB. On that, Senator Barry Goldwater was a General in the Air Force Reserves. He once asked General Curtis LeMay about getting a tour of the "Blue Room". He was abruptly cussed out by his friend and threatened with court martial if he brought up the topic again. LeMay admitted that he wasn't even allowed in there and he was the base commander. (For more info, search for 'Goldwater' on www.stealthskater.com... .)

Speaking of dams, most of them are operated by the US Army Corps of Engineers. Some of them offer public tours. I went on one at Sutton, West Virginia. First, no pictures (of course) are allowed. You have to surrender all cellphones and even your drivers license (which was a first for me). I was surprised that in these high-tech days, everything within the dam was from the 1940s era. No computer control, no LED lights. All manually-operated valves and old-fashioned gauges. The bottom level (of six) was actually below the lake. If the maximum discharge rate is ever exceeded, ground/bush/trees lining the lake will be "sucked in".

Another fascinating tour I had was Green Bank Observatory (greenbankobservatory.org... ) which features the largest movable/steerable radio telescope in the World. They offer a behind-the-scenes "high tech" tour once-a-month. I saw the actual control room. But it wasn't like in the Jodie Foster movie "Contact". 10-or-so computers were arranged in a large semi-circle with one operator rolling between them. The "guts" of the operation consisted of fiber optic cables and servers behind a glass wall. They bragged about having the World's best internet whose fiber optics were strung along telephone poles from southern West Virginia all the way to Pittsburgh.

You can view the facility by using Google's Satellite Earth View (satellites.pro... ). I also used it to view Wyoming's Devils Tower (en.wikipedia.org... ) which was featured in the movie "Close Encounters". Unlike the movie, however, there is no hollow space "inside" the Tower. It is flat on top with vegetation. It is considered sacred by Northern Plains Indians and access is limited to rock climbing (with permission). Walking/exploring on top is strictly forbidden to preserve the fragile grasslands. Even helicopters are prohibited from approaching the top due to the damaging downwash from the rotor blades.

Tyler Rogoway wrote an interesting article in 'The War Zone' about "What The Pentagon Is Not Answering About The Air Force And Recent UFO Encounters". This has to do with the Navy's involvement with the mysterious Tic-Tacs and why the USAF (who is charged with protecting the Country's airspace) is refusing to answering any questions about this => www.thedrive.com... . [Scroll down past the end of advertisements for interesting Reader Comments]

My gut reaction is that these incidents use advanced tech craft to test modern weapon systems like AESA radar. These tests are secretly sponsored by some "alphabet" agency; the standard Military doesn't know anything about it. The big question, of course, is are these craft E.T. vehicles back-engineered by us (or is E.T. in cahoots with aforementioned agency in the tests).

My wife in college had a secretarial job at the University. Her best friend was fellow secretary Leslie whose husband was Jim. After graduation, he went on to become a Navy pilot flying A-4s/A-7s. We went on a Florida trip around 1975 to visit her ailing father and stopped in Jacksonville to visit Jim&Leslie.

On the long drive down, I was scanning FM radio stations. I heard a news broadcast about a Russian bomber that came extremely close to the Florida coast before turning away. I never heard any more on that. Jim showed us his Navy air base. I asked him about that bomber incident and he seemed shocked.

"That is very sensitive information," he admonished. "Where did you hear that?"

I told him and he still wouldn't let up on questioning me. (Note he used the term "sensitive" and not "secret".) He said that the stunt "...made a lot of people mad." I never learned why the bomber was not detected until too late. Was someone on our side asleep at the switch or were the Russians testing new ECM? But I indirectly learned that so-called "National Security" means more than just letting an enemy steal secrets. It's anything that can impede the Government's ability to control its populace. Obviously, the PTB censored any more news broadcasts concerning the bomber to avoid public panic. (What else have they been censoring for 50+ years?)

Later, I asked Jim about UFOs. He seemed totally uninterested. He admitted: "Oh, there up there all the time. But we don't bother them and they don't bother us." When I passed this on to Tom Mahood, he said that he had heard the same thing from military pilot friends. "Sort of like standing orders" was how Tom put it. And this was back in 1975! So it sounds like those who-need-to-know are aware of what these things (or phenomena) are and have been for a long time.