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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Jan, 18 2006 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
What, specifically, are you talking about? Personally, I agree about the validity of the KJV of the Bible; I rarely read that translation. I use several translations, though, and haven't seen these two separate accounts of creation. Care to expand on this issue?


I believe s/he means Chapter 1 and 2. Whereas Chapter 1 is the creation of the universe and 2 is the Garden of Eden. I bumped heads with a college professor about the same in World Religions because he mandated a crappy translation of the Oxford Study Bible which does not have any topical heading, breaks or explanation as to who translated it as they did. The New International Version not only has these things, but was translated by over two hundred Biblical scholars from original Hebrew and Greek texts.




posted on Jan, 18 2006 @ 04:45 PM
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if they aren't 2 SEPERATE accounts of creation, then explain these contradictions

Gen.1:25-27
(Humans were created after the other animals.)
as oppossed to the second account
Gen.2:18-19
(Humans were created before the other animals.)

Gen.1:27
(The first man and woman were created simultaneously.)
as oppossed to the second account
Gen.2:18-22
(The man was created first, then the animals, then the woman from the man's rib.)

for now, just explain those 2



posted on Jan, 18 2006 @ 05:04 PM
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For your first one, see This from earlier in this thread. For the second one, if I've already addressed it, I can't find it in the search, so I'll go over it again. I suspect I haven't, though, for reasons that may become apparent.

First, the two Bible quotes. I am providing a link to BibleGateway.com for each passage that will allow you to look at it in several translations, including Greek.

Genesis 1:27

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.


Genesis 2:18-22

18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.


Link

This should be short. Where, in saying God created both man and woman, does it say simultaneously? Just because one account is less specific than the other does not mean it is a contradictory statement.

A real life example:

I ask you what you had for dinner last night, and you reply "chicken". Then, to someone else you say you had chicken piccata.

Did you just contradict yourself?

In a textbook, is a summary of the chapter to follow contradictory to the chapter because the summary didn't go into as much detail? What about the conclusion? Is that contradicting the content because it doesn't go into the same detail? If the conclusion focuses on some details and the introduction focuses on others, are they in direct contradiction to one another?



posted on Jan, 18 2006 @ 07:39 PM
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the point is that man is created THEN animals and FINALLY woman is created.

in the first account the animals were already there, second account animals are created before woman, but after man.

[edit on 18-1-2006 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on Jan, 18 2006 @ 07:44 PM
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also, the second account was written prior to the first account.

the first account borrows from an egyptian creation myth in which one of the gods (i think ptah, but not sure) spoke everything that is mortal into being. much like god says let there be light, and light comes into being. this reflects the heavy influence that NONmonotheistic religion had on scripture. the flood narrative borrows HEAVILY from the last part of the epic of gilgamesh, a story written over 1000 years before the hebrew scriptures were written.



posted on Jan, 18 2006 @ 08:03 PM
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Ahh, I see where you are coming from, madness. I actually have addressed that issue somewhere in this thread, but can't find it through the search.

I suspect the specific point of contention is actually where it says:


18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them;...


We have two options here, we can address the English translation's grammar, or we can go straight for the Greek. English first. That "had" in the first sentence of verse 19, compounded with the past tense of form, changes the tense of the statement. To give a contemporary example:

Junglejake lay in bed, his stomach a bubbling cauldron of agony. Now he had eaten McDonald's the night before, and was paying the price.

However, your claim was that translations corrupted the original Greek to get rid of contradictions. I'd first like to point out that this reasoning is, in my mind, feeble, because Christians are not the only ones translating the original Greek scripture. Despite that, I can empathize with where you're coming from, as I feel the same way about the Watchtower translation of the Bible. So, with no further ado, I say...who cares?

The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew. I'm assuming you wouldn't trust a translation of a translation, so I'm not going to touch on the Greek. I will, however, go after the Hebrew...Tomorrow
I work with someone who is an Orthodox Jew and knows Hebrew very well. As Study Light's Hebrew lexicon baffles me, I'm going to talk with him and let you know, without grammatical correction, exactly what it says in Hebrew if my buddy will indulge me. Otherwise, I'll give a synopsis of what he says if he doesn't want to go word by word.



posted on Jan, 18 2006 @ 08:17 PM
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Ok, I accept Ptah's creation of the universe is similar to the way God did so. I have two things to respond with. The first comes out of the Bible. The book of Job, specifically:

Job 12:7-10

"But ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds of the air, and they will tell you;

8 or speak to the earth, and it will teach you,
or let the fish of the sea inform you.

9 Which of all these does not know
that the hand of the LORD has done this?

10 In his hand is the life of every creature
and the breath of all mankind.


With this in mind, if the God of Israel is the true God and He makes Himself known through observance of His very creation, wouldn't it stand to reason that the Egyptians could have started to get it, but not the entire picture?

The second point would be this. Which can hold up to all scrutiny, the Bible or Egyptian mythology? You can present possibilities and areas that can't be proven in the Bible, but at the same time, that for which there is evidence has only confirmed the Bible, from finding paths in the sea, springs in the oceans or the pool of Bethesda. Those two issues, in conjunction, cause me to dismiss the notion that the Jews simply copied the idea of Ptah.

As to Gilgamesh, I haven't read it in over 14 years, so I can't comment in an educated manner. However, there is a flood account in the story. Of this I am aware. Is it copying, or relating the same global flood that remained in people's memories, as the Aztecs, Incans, Mayans, Native American tribes, and many other religions across the entire planet without any contact with one another all have a flood account. I would see that more as a confirmation than a negation.



posted on Jan, 19 2006 @ 03:39 PM
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almost all areas of the world near a body of water flood. floods would be seen as a sign of the respective deity and would be incorporated into mythologies.

there could never be a global flood because there simply isn't enough water on this planet to make that happen.



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 07:03 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
almost all areas of the world near a body of water flood. floods would be seen as a sign of the respective deity and would be incorporated into mythologies.

there could never be a global flood because there simply isn't enough water on this planet to make that happen.


Done with creation, now on to the flood? Madness, if you're looking for someone to go though the Bible point-by-point there are plenty of us who could do that however that's not going to make you have sudden and instantaneous belief in God. God isn't print in a book, sorry to disappoint. God is alive right now so unless you're interested in engaging in a meaningful relationship with Him in the present, then I don't think any amount of research and Q&A are going to be much help. By the way, if you bump into a person who can explain how God did everything, let me know because I have a few questions for them myself, beginning with "how do YOU know?". If you're interested in knowing God right now, then I could help there, feel free to send U2U.

[edit on 20-1-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Jan, 20 2006 @ 06:07 PM
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Saint4God:

God did everything thusly....

*Pauses*

How do I know? Because I know not a thing.


Mmmm... Koan.



posted on Jan, 21 2006 @ 01:42 AM
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saint, i'm not in the market for a new religion.

you're just trying to dodge a question i brought up about how many parts of the bible reflect pagan influences from the time they were written. you then talk about how god is alive right now. i'm bringing up how the bible is a useful book for archaeological and anthropological study, and you talk about god.

this thread isn't about CONVERTING it's about UNDERSTANDING.



posted on Jan, 23 2006 @ 07:24 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Saint4God:

God did everything thusly....

*Pauses*

How do I know? Because I know not a thing.


I know of one thing. and would be glad to share. Feel free to U2U.



posted on Jan, 23 2006 @ 07:31 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
saint, i'm not in the market for a new religion.


That's okay, I'm not selling any.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you're just trying to dodge a question i brought up about how many parts of the bible reflect pagan influences from the time they were written.


No dodge on the question, I stated how it could be verified. Now the question about pagan influences in Christianity, to which my answer is there's already a pretty good thread on it already where people gave some very good answers. Better than I could I think, but think it should be the pursuer's responsibility to seek out this information before asking a question to show an earnest attempt at understanding.

I think Roger Pearse answers quite a number of these questions very well, and accurately. I'll help in the search: Interesting information on the "Christianity is a copy of Pagan Myths" Theory


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you then talk about how god is alive right now.


That is the Absolute Power of Christianity, aka the title of this thread.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'm bringing up how the bible is a useful book for archaeological and anthropological study,


Is that the title of this thread?


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
and you talk about god.


Who is the One responsible for the Absolute Power of Christianity. He sent His son, who taught people the right way to do things, die, be raised from the dead to pay the penalty of our sins and purchase a place in heaven for those who believe.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
this thread isn't about CONVERTING it's about UNDERSTANDING.


I cannot convert anyone, nor ever claimed I could. I'm here to talk about the Absolute Power of Christianity. If anyone understands what that is, then yes, this thread is about understanding.

[edit on 23-1-2006 by saint4God]

[edit on 23-1-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Jan, 23 2006 @ 04:07 PM
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saint, would you agree that the purpose of a thread is for intelligent discussion?

now, if we go on the precepts of the thread's title, there is nothing to discuss, am i correct?

i'm bringing up how i don't rule out the bible as a book, but as a spiritual document.

it pertains to the attacks that have gone back and forth between atheists and christians.

also, that thread's last post was before i even joined, so i was unaware of it.

i'm pretty sure this thread is basically about christianity, so i'll direct christian related discussion towards here.



posted on Jan, 23 2006 @ 08:21 PM
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'quote: Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you then talk about how god is alive right now. '

'That is the Absolute Power of Christianity, aka the title of this thread. ' saint4God

But even if God is real, what does that have to do with Christianity? What if he doesn't play favourites and has no 'pet' church, treating all faiths equally? Or worse, what if his 'pet' faith is one of the others like Wicca or Islam? That is possible, which signifies how unrelated the existence of God is from the power of Christianity. What if atheists occupy a special place in his heart? It may be that he admires their bold spirit and confidence. Who is sure of God's allegiance? Jews are said to be the chosen ones, and even Jesus himself is repeatedly referred to in the Bible as Rabbi. If Jews are not heavenbound then what of him?



posted on Jan, 24 2006 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
saint, would you agree that the purpose of a thread is for intelligent discussion?


Certainly. I hope that is the aim.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
now, if we go on the precepts of the thread's title, there is nothing to discuss, am i correct?


Apparently many people here feel there's quite a bit to discuss. It's a long thread. Granted, I think there is a good bit that's off topic, but there's also a fair amount that is on as well.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'm bringing up how i don't rule out the bible as a book, but as a spiritual document.

it pertains to the attacks that have gone back and forth between atheists and christians.

also, that thread's last post was before i even joined, so i was unaware of it.


S'all good, just trying to help keep the focus.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'm pretty sure this thread is basically about christianity, so i'll direct christian related discussion towards here.


Cool, much appreciated friend.



posted on Jan, 24 2006 @ 07:47 AM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
But even if God is real, what does that have to do with Christianity?


God had sent His son, called the Christ to come and teach, to die for sins, and resurrected. By doing so, sins of those who believed are forgiven and their eternal life is assured. The followers of The Way, those who believed and actively participated in the words of Christ were called Christians. Does that mean you have to be called "Christian" to get into heaven? No. Does that mean that all who are going to heaven are called "Christian? No. HOWEVER, the people who ARE Christian have their salvation assured. I there is nothing I want more than to share that gift with everyone. This gift comes from the Absolute Power of Christianity, who is God.


Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
What if he doesn't play favourites and has no 'pet' church, treating all faiths equally?


He outlines exactly what He does and does not favor. It's in the book. And/Or, you may ask Him yourself. I agree that you don't have to belong to a particular Christ-believing church as Paul states in 1 Corinthians 1:10. A non-Christ believing church looks like they're in for some rocky times as I read it in Revelation.


Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Or worse, what if his 'pet' faith is one of the others like Wicca or Islam?


God makes clear how the dead are judged in Revelation 20:11.


Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
That is possible, which signifies how unrelated the existence of God is from the power of Christianity. What if atheists occupy a special place in his heart?


Answer is the same as above.


Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
It may be that he admires their bold spirit and confidence. Who is sure of God's allegiance?


"Believe (trust) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved..."


Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Jews are said to be the chosen ones, and even Jesus himself is repeatedly referred to in the Bible as Rabbi. If Jews are not heavenbound then what of him?


The answers are in the Book. I'd recommend John. It's a good place to start. Doubt the Word? Ask God, but don't be surprised if He gives a similar answer as He did for me.



posted on Jan, 24 2006 @ 01:51 PM
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What you say is nothing I haven't heard many times before. I just happen to disagree, no worries.
As for John, I have read it, three versions of it. The KJAV, NIV, and Good News ones. The author is a very interesting character to me. Personally, I feel there is a good chance this apostle was a woman.



posted on Jan, 24 2006 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
What you say is nothing I haven't heard many times before.


Good, I like knowing I'm on the right track.


Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I just happen to disagree, no worries.


*nods*


Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
As for John, I have read it, three versions of it. The KJAV, NIV, and Good News ones.


NIV is best I think.


Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
The author is a very interesting character to me.


Who's the author?


Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Personally, I feel there is a good chance this apostle was a woman.


Why?



posted on Jan, 24 2006 @ 06:40 PM
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For the list of bible verses which I based my Joanna speculation on, read my thread on it.


www.abovetopsecret.com...



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