The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i take an agnostic approach to the existence of god.

That I have to contend with. You seem to know your god very well, and actively refute any who disagree. I stated in your thread you mentioned that you were an atheist, but after having read this, I think that may not have been right. I don't think you're an agnostic, either, though. You know darn well who God is. You believe, I believe, you are God. At least, he has your personality, beliefs and morality. This is where you and I differ. My God is drastically different than myself, and is constantly challenging me to change. Your God tells you you're perfect the way you are, but you need to convince others to be the way you are so they, too, can be perfect.

I can empathize, though. I, too, was once there. It really is an empty belief, though had I been told that when I was where you are, I too would have reacted the same way you did after reading that.

shouldn't this be grounds for a warning? i don't actually believe a god exists, i don't believe a god doesn't exist, and i'm a (expletive premptively avoided) buddhist. i believe that all living beings have some degree of imperfection, most of it stemming from the belief in one's self as a seperate entity. you are blatently insulting me, but hide behind a self rightous zeal. hey, wait, i was there at one point to. i've seen the real light. i know that i've become somewhat wise by realizing that i cannot have blind faith without question. if there is a god, and this god gave me my vast amount of curiosity, i should be free to use it. i've learned that i cannot know everything. i will always have uncertainty. life without uncertainty is life as an automataun.

okay, let's settle it here. if i'm right, you won't be able to answer this question to the satisfaction of anyone who isn't a christian. why is jesus the only way? difficulty: nothing quoting the bible. only logical arguments.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
difficulty: nothing quoting the bible. only logical arguments.

a fine proof. I will do so if you first satisfy my proof, equally difficult:

Prove 2 + 2 = 4 without using math. Prove it philosophically.

You believe as our culture believes, that there is no absloutes. Do you deny you rage against anyone who claims to be a Christian?

You think I insulted you in my last post? Do you deny that in my life experience I have argued the same points you have here on ATS, and I suspect you're coming from the same place I did 6 years ago? It is now a warnable insult, in your mind, to identify with what someone is going through? Or is it that empathy cannot exist anymore, I cannot relate my life experiences to you anymore, and parents can't teach their children life lessons anymore because the fact that the teacher has experienced what the student has not demeans the student?

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
difficulty: nothing quoting the bible. only logical arguments.

a fine proof. I will do so if you first satisfy my proof, equally difficult:

Prove 2 + 2 = 4 without using math. Prove it philosophically.

You believe as our culture believes, that there is no absloutes. Do you deny you rage against anyone who claims to be a Christian?

You think I insulted you in my last post? Do you deny that in my life experience I have argued the same points you have here on ATS, and I suspect you're coming from the same place I did 6 years ago? It is now a warnable insult, in your mind, to identify with what someone is going through? Or is it that empathy cannot exist anymore, I cannot relate my life experiences to you anymore, and parents can't teach their children life lessons anymore because the fact that the teacher has experienced what the student has not demeans the student?

i can prove 2+2=4 philosophically.
we assign a certain value to 2. we make this 2. and then we make a 4, an arbitrary symbol that means 2 2s. there is actually quite a bit of reading you can do on the philosophy of mathematics. how it's mostly created by people.

i found your statement condescending. you claim you were in the same place as me. i was a quite fanatical christian myself at one point. but i saw past the illusions that people cling to, the illusion of organized religion.

you can find comfort in most religions, but no matter how warm and fuzzy it makes you feel, you miss the forest for a tree.

i believe in certain absolutes, but all things have one strange exception. kill one person to save 2 argument.

i do not rage against christians. my 2 best friends are deeply spiritual christians.

how do you know that you are the teacher here? how do you know that you have more experience now? for all you know i'm a 7 year old, or a nam vet. i have been on a spiritual journey. it will continue. i traveled through the stage of christianity. i belive most of it is an illusion, to some it is a helpful illusion, heck it even helped me a bit. however, i feel that all religions have an element of illusion to them. especially if they claim to be right.

if you cover up the greater truth, you have only shot yourself in the leg.

Hope you all had a great Christmas or holiday with friends and faimly.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i take an agnostic approach to the existence of god.

At least you're not discounting the possiblity. I hope you get the proof you need and feel free to let me know if I can help.

Just my opinion JungleJake, thought you went a bit far saying madness is claiming himself/herself to be God. I don't think that's the case.


[edit on 3-1-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Yes... but I am not aware of any studies which demonstrate WHY the god part of the mind came into being. Why that ingrained desire to believe in something is wedged in our very existence.

No-one really knows why there seems to be a proclivity to religion/mysticism. But I would point out that our tendency to form conclusions from inadequate information is not limited to the religious realm.

We could speculate as to why this is, but to conclude "god" is unwarranted, as there are plausible natural explanations.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Tell me, Spam and Ham... do you believe there are things beyond explanation? Things which language or explanation cannot elucidate for the observer because language itself lacks the vocational ability to relate it?

If there are, I am at as much of a loss to comprehend them as everyone else, and they are thus irrelevant. Anyone who claims to hold the truth about such a thing would be lying by definition.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Are there paranormal phenomena that you feel indicate that realms of energy exist which are higher than our own?

All paranormal phenomena I have seen investigated objectively turned out to have normal explanations, so my answer to this question is "no".

Originally posted by spamandham
No-one really knows why there seems to be a proclivity to religion/mysticism. But I would point out that our tendency to form conclusions from inadequate information is not limited to the religious realm.

Very true, no contention of that.

We could speculate as to why this is, but to conclude "god" is unwarranted, as there are plausible natural explanations.

To conclude "Not God" is also unwarranted. Realize I don't necessarily mean the biblical "God" as much as a creative force in the universe.

There may be other explanations, but they are taken with a similar amount of faith. It is one of those unanswerable's at this point in time.

If there are, I am at as much of a loss to comprehend them as everyone else, and they are thus irrelevant. Anyone who claims to hold the truth about such a thing would be lying by definition.

Ability to comprehend does not mean irrelevant. At one point in time, you hadn't the ability to comprehend what "Green" was, or simple addition. What you cannot comprehend is merely something you haven't learned about yet. This makes it less than irrelevant, unless you yourself are confessing to not questioning your universe as needed.

All paranormal phenomena I have seen investigated objectively turned out to have normal explanations, so my answer to this question is "no".

Interesting. Do you feel there is SCIENCE which supports the existence of higher energetic planes of existence?

I only had to read a couple of sentences of your post.
Surely you must know the - real - reason people comnstantly and justifiably object to christians and their penchant for proselytizing. The very act of pounding one's beliefs on innocent people is irritating. Firstly is the very insulting assumption that the proselytizer knows something that the victum does not. Secondly, you claim the 10 Commadments as something christian rather then jewish, who have first claim albeit also a false claim since the whole thing is almost certainly plagiarized from the Code of Hammaribi.
The problem with posting any religious saying on property not owned by the religious sect, plagiarized or otherwise is...it violates our constitution which sought to protect innocent people from just this sort of totalitarianism. If christians need assurances manifests in the posting of religious ditties they ought to at least have the good manners to do it on property they own and not steal the warranty rights of others to indulge themselves. Stealing is not good,; it's wrong. If I'm not mistaken, the Code of Hammaribi warns against this and I beliene the plagiarized version you call "the ten commandments" also warns against thievery. Why not pound other christiams? The badgering will be less tiring and the wished for verification will almost certainly be more enthusiastically forthcoming. Good luck with that.
skep

how much do you think a big marble or granite statue of the 10 commandments costs?

maybe we could put it in a state park, along with something nice, something else, maybe a golden calf we can offer sacrafices to. that seems similar to a big statue that is regarded with reverance, no?

do christians and hebrews need to see an engraving of the 10 commandments on government property? is it discrimination that we don't give in to a request that isn't even a tennant of their religion, and is actually, as spam put it, a form of idoltry which is against there religion?

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
To conclude "Not God" is also unwarranted. Realize I don't necessarily mean the biblical "God" as much as a creative force in the universe.

The default position is "nature" because we live in a natural world. It is not unwarranted to assume there is a natural explanation for any given natural observation. Observations about human behavior are natural observations.

To answer "god" is to give up looking for an answer that actually makes sense, and such claims have been shown to be false time and time again.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
There may be other explanations, but they are taken with a similar amount of faith. It is one of those unanswerable's at this point in time.

If it is unanswerable, then anyone who presents an answer without couching it as speculation is propogating a lie, regardless of what the truth ends up being.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Ability to comprehend does not mean irrelevant.

If no-one has such an ability to comprehend, then no-one is qualified to be making a claim in the first place. Someone who wants to make supernatural claims needs to support it as evidence that they know what they are talking about. There is too much muddled thinking and too many hucksters out there to take such a claim on its own merit.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Interesting. Do you feel there is SCIENCE which supports the existence of higher energetic planes of existence?

None I'm aware of. We know we don't know everything, and we know some theories are just plain wrong, but they work under certain conditions. We also know there are experimental results for which no cohesive theory fits. But none of this lack of knowledge provides any positive evidence for "higher planes of existence", whatever that means.

Most of science to date has been geared toward understanding how nature works, but not why. We are finally starting to answer enough of the "how" questions to begin formulating cohesive answers to the "why" questions.

If you can use the higher planes of existence theory to predict measurable results, you'll certainly have my attention. If not, then what is the basis for making such a claim in the first place?

Originally posted by spamandham

None I'm aware of. We know we don't know everything, and we know some theories are just plain wrong, but they work under certain conditions. We also know there are experimental results for which no cohesive theory fits. But none of this lack of knowledge provides any positive evidence for "higher planes of existence", whatever that means.

Most of science to date has been geared toward understanding how nature works, but not why. We are finally starting to answer enough of the "how" questions to begin formulating cohesive answers to the "why" questions.

If you can use the higher planes of existence theory to predict measurable results, you'll certainly have my attention. If not, then what is the basis for making such a claim in the first place?

Klein Bottle? We are limited to our perception of three dimensions. According to recent string theory, there are more dimensions our perceptions are unaware of. If true, this would indicate there are HIGHER planes of existence.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword

Originally posted by spamandham

None I'm aware of. We know we don't know everything, and we know some theories are just plain wrong, but they work under certain conditions. We also know there are experimental results for which no cohesive theory fits. But none of this lack of knowledge provides any positive evidence for "higher planes of existence", whatever that means.

Most of science to date has been geared toward understanding how nature works, but not why. We are finally starting to answer enough of the "how" questions to begin formulating cohesive answers to the "why" questions.

If you can use the higher planes of existence theory to predict measurable results, you'll certainly have my attention. If not, then what is the basis for making such a claim in the first place?

Klein Bottle? We are limited to our perception of three dimensions. According to recent string theory, there are more dimensions our perceptions are unaware of. If true, this would indicate there are HIGHER planes of existence.

quick correction for you, time is a dimension, we have 4 dimensions which we percieve

not necassarily higher planes, but different ones. if being existing in dimension 4, 5, 6, and 7, this being would be no higher or lower than us. just because these other dimensions exist, doesn't mean that a being in those dimensions could alter the universe any more than a being in our 4 dimensions. also, any supposed beings in other dimensions may not be able to understand our dimesnions any better than we can understand theirs.

short answer, not higher, different "planes" of existence.

I know it wasn't directed at me, but when there are blanket statements, it includes me.

Originally posted by skep
Secondly, you claim the 10 Commadments as something christian rather then jewish, who have first claim

Ya, so far so good...

Originally posted by skep
albeit also a false claim since the whole thing is almost certainly plagiarized from the Code of Hammaribi.

*pause button* Educational opportunity for me here. I thought I knew the Code, but guess not. What part of Hammuribi's Code is almost certainly plagiarized? I only see one commandment that comes anywhere close, but the 10 Commandments don't order death for it. That and Hammurabi's code does not establish any moral law. eawc.evansville.edu...

Originally posted by skep
...it violates our constitution which sought to protect innocent people from just this sort of totalitarianism.

Who is bowing to this monument? Better yet, who is forced to do anything with this monument? You want totalitarian? Let's look at Hammurabi's code you adore so much:

"If any one buy from the son or the slave of another man, without witnesses or a contract, silver or gold, a male or female slave, an ox or a sheep, an ass or anything, or if he take it in charge, he is considered a thief and shall be put to death.

"If any one is committing a robbery and is caught, then he shall be put to death."

"If a "sister of a god" open a tavern, or enter a tavern to drink, then shall this woman be burned to death."

"If she have not borne him children, then her mistress may sell her for money."

"If a man be guilty of incest with his daughter, he shall be driven from the place (exiled)."

"If a son strike his father, his hands shall be hewn off. "

"If a man strike a free-born woman so that she lose her unborn child, he shall pay ten shekels for her loss. "

"If he strike the maid-servant of a man, and she lose her child, he shall pay two shekels in money. "

"If a slave say to his master: "You are not my master," if they convict him his master shall cut off his ear."

Great code skep , makes one wonder why we don't go by it today! Don't wanna hear no more 'bout how unfair the 10 Commandments are if this is the basis of your argument.

Originally posted by skep
If christians need assurances manifests in the posting of religious ditties they ought to at least have the good manners to do it on property they own and not steal the warranty rights of others to indulge themselves.

Hold up. Show me where stealing has occurred.

Originally posted by skep
Stealing is not good,; it's wrong.

Really? Where is that written? Oh yeah, the 10 commandments .

Originally posted by skep
If I'm not mistaken, the Code of Hammaribi warns against this and I beliene the plagiarized version you call "the ten commandments" also warns against thievery.

There's that allegation again. Just because both talk about stealing it's plagiarized? How do you figure?

Originally posted by skep
Why not pound other christiams?

Nice try.

Originally posted by skep
The badgering will be less tiring and the wished for verification will almost certainly be more enthusiastically forthcoming.

Believers don't require validation from each other.

Originally posted by skep
Good luck with that.

I don't think JJ believes in luck, that's a different religion. Correct me if I'm wrong Jake.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
how much do you think a big marble or granite statue of the 10 commandments costs?

Not much. See my Statue of Liberty statement above. Or maybe the Washington Obelisk...er...Monument.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
maybe we could put it in a state park, along with something nice, something else, maybe a golden calf we can offer sacrafices to. that seems similar to a big statue that is regarded with reverance, no?

Now you're being silly. As mentioned many, many times before, no one is bowing nor worshipping to this display.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
do christians and hebrews need to see an engraving of the 10 commandments on government property?

Do Americans need to see copies of the constitution?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
is it discrimination that we don't give in to a request that isn't even a tennant of their religion, and is actually, as spam put it, a form of idoltry which is against there religion?

Who is bowing down...nevermind, nobody seems to want to answer this question.

Histronics: 1: Theatrical performances 2: Deliberate display of emotions for effect

Excellent debating technique.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Klein Bottle? We are limited to our perception of three dimensions. According to recent string theory, there are more dimensions our perceptions are unaware of. If true, this would indicate there are HIGHER planes of existence.

If by "higher planes" you simply mean "more than 4 spacetime dimensions", then I would say there is evidence of that. Gravity, quantum entanglement, and David Deutsch' laser slit experiment all imply more than 4 spacetime dimensions.

String theory is really a collection of partial theories that each provide predictive power under certain conditions. String theory is known to be incomplete, and may well turn out to have been a 20 year trek toward a brick wall.

Originally posted by saint4God
Who is bowing down...nevermind, nobody seems to want to answer this question.

i'll answer it. regarding an man made symbol of the divine, whether it be laws or statues of religious figures, with reverance is a form of idolitry. it doesn't matter if you bow down to it, offer up sacrafices, or just think "good ol (insert display's name here)"

they're all idolatry, because too many will focus on the symbol instead of what it represents.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'll answer it.

Thanks for stepping up.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
regarding an man made symbol of the divine, whether it be laws or statues of religious figures, with reverance is a form of idolitry. it doesn't matter if you bow down to it, offer up sacrafices, or just think "good ol (insert display's name here)"

Where does it say reverance = idolatry? Does that mean military personnel who salute the flag are idolaters? I'd posted the definition of idolatry, but it looks like what is being proposed is a new or different one and would like to hear it out if you have it.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
they're all idolatry, because too many will focus on the symbol instead of what it represents.

Besides the fact that it's not being worshipped, placed next to, nor put above God, how is it that you know people are focusing on the symbol instead of what it's representing? It is true that Jesus accuses the Pharisees of doing this, but would not a Christian have learned the lesson as he states it to not focus on the letter of the law (symbol) but rather what it reprsents (the meaning)?

I'll tell you what I see when I see the 10 Commandments. Here is a God that cares so much about His people, that He would communicate not only was is best in a relationship with Him, but also what is best for all His people in their interactions with each other. That is love. That is what it respresents to me.

From a christian perspective: It is not my duty to push my faith upon others but to practice it in good light. I don't believe in errecting statues, monuments and the 10 commandments. In a way I see that as idolatry because people are fighting over graven pieces. Jesus never went into the Forums or Senate and throw bibles around are haul ediffices there. He did go into places where people worshiped an flipped tables of people conducting business in the temples. Why is it so important to force any religion into the govenment as several political figures have done over the years against the crafters of the consitition. "in God we trust" and "one nation under God" were added to the money and pledge of alegience in defiance of The Constitutution. I'm alright with someone who seeks enlightenment with the teachings of Buddah or follows teachings of Mohammed. In the Christian Bible, the book of Acts addresses the subject of non-interference of others who have a different belief. It really is more important to show respect to those who travel a different road that may likely parallel your own. To live and teach by faith is divine to shove it in someone elses faith is blasphamous!
Go in peace and may your journey through life be filled with wondous experiances -AC

Originally posted by saint4god
I'm not convinced. Any Christians here think the posting of the 10 commandments outside a court of law infringes on the rights of others? It's an unoffical poll, but it's a start.

Originally posted by AlabamaCajun
From a christian perspective: It is not my duty to push my faith upon others but to practice it in good light. I don't believe in errecting statues, monuments and the 10 commandments.

Saint, does this address your poll?

AlabamaCajun, thank you for your post, because it shows some of the more cynical atheists and extremist theists that there is a rational middle ground.

you don't have to go north or south, go west or something.
--directions from a forest ranger, very enlightening when you think about it.