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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Dec, 29 2005 @ 11:37 AM
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Dang! I just spent 30 minutes composing a response and hit preview instead of post, then forgot to post before moving on.

Saint, the bottom line is this: It is inconsistent to say god wills a relationship with me, and he has the knowledge and power to persuade me (which would be infinitely trivially easy for him), and yet he doesn't act. You might claim he has acted, by sending Jesus and the Bible, etc., which is sufficient for many, but not for me. You can conclude that he only wills a relationship with those who accept the effort he has put forth, which is a small fraction of the people on earth.

Further, beliefs are formed subconsciously, not by decisions. Your subconscious informs you of your beliefs with the eureka effect. The concept of justification by faith is fundamentally at odds with what we know about how the mind works.


saint4god
Now if you said that by sending $1,000 you would truly believe in your heart that God exists and His son is to be trusted for salvation, then I would've been counting my pennies.


Yes, that's what I'm saying.




posted on Dec, 29 2005 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by Azza
saint4God, what if my "god" demands you send me meat(my organisation helps the needy) and participate in incest?


What if I had a hamster that wanted to binge on eating until he died?


Originally posted by Azza
you know, ala Cain and Abel

we are worshiping the same "god" no?


Doesn't sound like it to me.


Originally posted by Azza
just my interpretation varies,


By a lot it sounds. I go by my relationship with God and what he says in writting. Believe it or not, they match up very well.



Originally posted by Azza
I of course place a higher value on meat than the bible


Good luck following dead meat down the road to find eternal life.



Originally posted by Azza
it just tastes better. Also my "god" condones and even advocates contraception and safe sex


*shrug* And?


Originally posted by Azza
(please forgive me if my post sounds flippant, I'm just trying to use this as an open forum for discussion)


If it had a point, that'd be helpful, but am used to posts that don't.

[edit on 29-12-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Dec, 29 2005 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
now if an omni^3 can't respond to this invitation, i'm deeply disappointed.

it'll be a great party, and you can do that water to wine thing if you want!

it may sound ridiculous to invite god to a party, but it sounds more ridiculous that god couldn't come to my party, or a least tell me that god has made a commitment to go to another party. probably one at the playboy mansion...


Doesn't sound like an honest invitation. Looks to me like a slap. If you sent that invite to me in the mail, I wouldn't show up either
. Keep shaking your fist, I doubt you'll get a hug
. I'd love to be wrong about this one though. If I am, please let me know.


[edit on 29-12-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Dec, 29 2005 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham
Dang! I just spent 30 minutes composing a response and hit preview instead of post, then forgot to post before moving on.


Doh! I feel your pain brother. I've done that a good number of times myself.


Originally posted by spamandham
Saint, the bottom line is this: It is inconsistent to say god wills a relationship with me, and he has the knowledge and power to persuade me (which would be infinitely trivially easy for him), and yet he doesn't act. You might claim he has acted, by sending Jesus and the Bible, etc., which is sufficient for many, but not for me. You can conclude that he only wills a relationship with those who accept the effort he has put forth, which is a small fraction of the people on earth.


I don't know His will, that could be the case.


Originally posted by spamandham
Further, beliefs are formed subconsciously, not by decisions. Your subconscious informs you of your beliefs with the eureka effect. The concept of justification by faith is fundamentally at odds with what we know about how the mind works.


Rats, now I'm really regretting your long post not going though. I was really interested and looking forward to hearing the answers to my questions and make some progress. Maybe there were some people who have been in-grained with belief since birth and never cared to question it, but I was not one of those people. Erego, my decision on belief was not subconcious.


Originally posted by spamandham

saint4god
Now if you said that by sending $1,000 you would truly believe in your heart that God exists and His son is to be trusted for salvation, then I would've been counting my pennies.


Yes, that's what I'm saying.


I wish I had the cash to play with sir, it'd be in the mail. Nevertheless I'm pretty certain that $1,000 will not make you truly change your heart. If it did, then most likely you'd be serving a different god entirely.

[edit on 29-12-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Dec, 29 2005 @ 03:52 PM
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i'm inviting the great omni^3 being out of curiosity, not animocity (sp).


why would i be given curiosity if i can't use it without being accused of shaking my fist at god?



posted on Dec, 29 2005 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Maybe there were some people who have been in-grained with belief since birth and never cared to question it, but I was not one of those people. Erego, my decision on belief was not subconcious.


All your beliefs are formed subconsciously. That doesn't imply that a given belief was ingrained since birth. By your own prior testimony, you were led to belief - it was not the result of any decision you made to believe.

I am not free to simply decide to believe in god any more than I am free to quit believing in gravity, or to decide to believe in leprechauns. That isn't the way the mind works.



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
All your beliefs are formed subconsciously. That doesn't imply that a given belief was ingrained since birth. By your own prior testimony, you were led to belief - it was not the result of any decision you made to believe.

I am not free to simply decide to believe in god any more than I am free to quit believing in gravity, or to decide to believe in leprechauns. That isn't the way the mind works.


I witness something, then concluded there was an opposite, pursued, trusted, which succeeded, therefore I believe. I thought that was a conscious experience. Higher brain functionality and/or psychology wasn't my concentration, so I'm open to different analyses if anyone would like to throw-in. I thought subconcious had more to do with instinct, reaction, dreams, breathing, etc. My belief wasn't a reaction, rather an action based on cognitive thinking and a conclusion that culminated from them.



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'm inviting the great omni^3 being out of curiosity, not animocity (sp).


why would i be given curiosity if i can't use it without being accused of shaking my fist at god?


If that was in response to me, then you misinterpreted what I was asking.

You had made a difinitive statement explaining the nature of the universe, and explained there was zero evidence that the Christian view of the universe is correct. I found it ironic that you condemned a religion for having faith while at the same time you explained a scenario for a multi-verse with little or no scientific backing. That lead me to believe you created that theory off the cuff without any evidence. It was that conclusion that caused me to think you were either being a hypocrite and trying to distract from being called on it with your Omega cubed party, or you hadn't realized that you were, in fact, a very faithful person believing without knowing in many respects and didn't know how to handle that revelation.

That was where I was going with pointing out that having a party for God isn't a very good proof of your theory of the nature of the multiverse.



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
I witness something, then concluded there was an opposite


By your own testimony you admit that your belief was not rooted in any choices or decision you made, but rather was rooted in what you witnessed and the conclusion you drew from that experience.

Once your belief was formed, I suppose you could have chosen not to do anything about it, but the belief itself was formed independent of your will.

This is the fundamental flaw with all the arguments about choosing faith. They are predicated on a priori belief. Ask as many people as you like why they believe, and none of them will honestly answer anything that even remotely sounds like "One minute I didn't believe, then I decided to believe, and so after that I believed". Instead, they will give you reasons why they believe.

You can choose whether or not to follow what you believe, but you do not choose what you believe.



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'm inviting the great omni^3 being out of curiosity, not animocity (sp).


why would i be given curiosity if i can't use it without being accused of shaking my fist at god?


Please read the following and tell me truly that you meant this from your heart, in all seriousness, that you would like God to come into your life on His terms:


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
alright, for the record. i invite the great omni^3 being to my new years eve party.

what shall i do if this being doesn't show up?

ATTENTION god or jesus (though it is actually Yeshua, but lets not argue semantics) please show up to my party.

now if an omni^3 can't respond to this invitation, i'm deeply disappointed.

it'll be a great party, and you can do that water to wine thing if you want!

it may sound ridiculous to invite god to a party, but it sounds more ridiculous that god couldn't come to my party, or a least tell me that god has made a commitment to go to another party. probably one at the playboy mansion...


Still see no jokes, slaps and defiance?

[edit on 30-12-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Dec, 30 2005 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
You can choose whether or not to follow what you believe, but you do not choose what you believe.


Brain candy. Let me chew on this one for a while please. You're up to 2 for today, I'd count the George Washington quote as a good point too.


[edit on 30-12-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jan, 1 2006 @ 07:47 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
This is the fundamental flaw with all the arguments about choosing faith. They are predicated on a priori belief. Ask as many people as you like why they believe, and none of them will honestly answer anything that even remotely sounds like "One minute I didn't believe, then I decided to believe, and so after that I believed". Instead, they will give you reasons why they believe.

You can choose whether or not to follow what you believe, but you do not choose what you believe.


Mmmmh... I feel it is more true that a person believes before the reason, and that the reason merely fits. The reasons for belief aren't important, as much as the belief itself... for belief is a reliance upon the unseen, it is a recognition, it is an acceptance that the world as we observe has a hidden backdrop we cannot observe. Does belief not require, in a sense, an absence of evidence? When evidence is presence, does it not then become an inclination towards proof or suggested reality?

For me, I knew I believed. What I believed I did not know for a long time. For a time, I felt that belief was irrational, and ridiculous... due to many reasons, some of which had to do with a desire to NOT believe. However, I feel perhaps it is a part of the human soul, the body, the spirit. If you believe, I am not sure you can stop believing. You can merely change what you believe *IN*, but that does not in itself destroy the belief... the reasons merely change.

Some believe in nihilism... but it is just as much a belief, and just as strong, just as based on a lack of evidence as the most devout fundamentalist baptist or roman catholic.

"Oh how easy, Love transfix'd to hate"

I think perhaps this quote by Shakespeare in a way refers to belief as well... it is far easier to transfer ones belief (Or desire to believe) in a divine being into the belief (Or desire to believe) in nihilism.

And... as I've said to others, Nihilism is a peaceful concept. Simple, elegant, and... releasing. It's a pity I simply cannot put faith in it.



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Mmmmh... I feel it is more true that a person believes before the reason, and that the reason merely fits.


Experiments support the notion that the subconscious forms our decisions for us before we are even consciously aware of them. Since decisions are intertwined with beliefs, it seems likely the same thing happens with our beliefs.

In that sense you may well be correct. Our conscious mind rationalizes what the subconscious has already determined. But if that's the case, our beliefs are still not under the control of our conscious will.



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i'm inviting the great omni^3 being out of curiosity, not animocity (sp).


why would i be given curiosity if i can't use it without being accused of shaking my fist at god?


If that was in response to me, then you misinterpreted what I was asking.

You had made a difinitive statement explaining the nature of the universe, and explained there was zero evidence that the Christian view of the universe is correct. I found it ironic that you condemned a religion for having faith while at the same time you explained a scenario for a multi-verse with little or no scientific backing. That lead me to believe you created that theory off the cuff without any evidence. It was that conclusion that caused me to think you were either being a hypocrite and trying to distract from being called on it with your Omega cubed party, or you hadn't realized that you were, in fact, a very faithful person believing without knowing in many respects and didn't know how to handle that revelation.

That was where I was going with pointing out that having a party for God isn't a very good proof of your theory of the nature of the multiverse.


i never created that theory, it's called M theory, it's been a way to reconcile 10 dimensional and 11 dimensional string theory. it's still underdeveloped because it's was created very recently. so stop accusing me of fabricating theories.

as to my invitation to god (or whatever other name the supposed omni^3 goes by) it was nothing more than a way to prove that if such a being existed, it would be able to answer my invitation, at least by saying it has made a previous commitment to spend new year's with moses or something. there is no better way to learn about someone than to me and converse with them, so that's how i wanted to get to know if god exists and what the nature of god is, but i got no reply.



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 04:30 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham
Experiments support the notion that the subconscious forms our decisions for us before we are even consciously aware of them. Since decisions are intertwined with beliefs, it seems likely the same thing happens with our beliefs.

In that sense you may well be correct. Our conscious mind rationalizes what the subconscious has already determined. But if that's the case, our beliefs are still not under the control of our conscious will.


Yes... but I am not aware of any studies which demonstrate WHY the god part of the mind came into being. Why that ingrained desire to believe in something is wedged in our very existence. Evolutionarily speaking, it does not appear to be all that beneficial. Or perhaps it was merely a non-volatile trait that got passed on to most offspring from an original source..

Tell me, Spam and Ham... do you believe there are things beyond explanation? Things which language or explanation cannot elucidate for the observer because language itself lacks the vocational ability to relate it? Are there paranormal phenomena that you feel indicate that realms of energy exist which are higher than our own? Lower?



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
now if an omni^3 can't respond to this invitation, i'm deeply disappointed.

it'll be a great party, and you can do that water to wine thing if you want!

it may sound ridiculous to invite god to a party, but it sounds more ridiculous that god couldn't come to my party, or a least tell me that god has made a commitment to go to another party. probably one at the playboy mansion...



This always brings me back to my own understanding of the universe... in that our Creator is a dualistic one, and non-interventionist. Every description of "God" in the bible (OT/NT) never has GOD there, as much as a proxy; God's voice on earth, Jesus, Moses, etc.

I feel that our Creator, to preserve creation, occassionally works via proxy to preserve the status quo of existence. I think that the anti-creator, or the Unmaker, would more directly try and tear creation down if there was not a differentiation of planes which prevent it from doing so. This results in entropy, the decay of all things. Without a dichotomy of perfect creation and perfect erasure, decay wouldn't exist... it is a struggle to preserve existence which makes our universe the way it is and gives us the rules and structures to understand it.


Saint4God Said
Doesn't sound like an honest invitation. Looks to me like a slap. If you sent that invite to me in the mail, I wouldn't show up either
. Keep shaking your fist, I doubt you'll get a hug
. I'd love to be wrong about this one though. If I am, please let me know.
[edit on 29-12-2005 by saint4God]


The Creator can't directly interfere with mortal affairs. It would come to be expected for it to interfere. It is like turning the cheat menu on in a video game... are you really playing the game anymore? You lose some of the joy of watching things unfold if you're always going down and meddling.

Let all things be as they are, as it were.



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 05:01 PM
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sword, how is this being going to let me learn it's nature? why is it that i can't at least get a visit from jesus?

what i'm tryin to say is that there is nothing to prove the existence of god, therefore making the absolute power of christianity nonexistent.

the only power it has isn't absolute, it's worldly. it's the power that 2.1 billion people can exert.



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
sword, how is this being going to let me learn it's nature? why is it that i can't at least get a visit from jesus?


You may be asking the wrong person. If you wish to learn the nature of the Creator, you're going to have to go on a lifelong journey in pursuit of it. Gnosis isn't something that can be told, it must be discovered, and no one path is the correct path or the correct faith. I would argue that organized religion is detrimental to spiritual awareness, however. Once you commit to a system, it becomes hard to divest ones self from it.



what i'm tryin to say is that there is nothing to prove the existence of god, therefore making the absolute power of christianity nonexistent.


Absense of proof is not proof of absence. You do not have a million dollars in your pocket, does that mean a million dollars doesn't exist?

Concerning the Absolute power of christianity, however... Religion is powerless in the face of Gnosis, unfortunately, most people have a religion. They just likely wouldn't call it that.

As for proof of god, I again argue that the devil is in the details. If you are a student of statistics (Understanding how they compile numbers), when enough isolated perameters reach the whimsically improbable in one concurrent event, the likelihood of such a thing happening becomes irrationally improbable.

I argue that is proof of god.



the only power it has isn't absolute, it's worldly. it's the power that 2.1 billion people can exert.


Naturally... of course, the individual should be as capable of miracles as anyone else. One must transcend the physical to witness ones own potential. Perhaps that is the true power of the Creator, what grace bestowed upon us, the creation.



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 11:08 PM
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so you're a gnostic, sword? interesting. that's one of the points of view i don't get to here from at all, i still contend that there isn't enough evidence to say that one path is the only path, but i have a thread in bts relating to that, so though i'm not an agnostic (not to be confused with a gnostic people out there) i take an agnostic approach to the existence of god.



posted on Jan, 2 2006 @ 11:21 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i take an agnostic approach to the existence of god.


That I have to contend with. You seem to know your god very well, and actively refute any who disagree. I stated in your thread you mentioned that you were an atheist, but after having read this, I think that may not have been right. I don't think you're an agnostic, either, though. You know darn well who God is. You believe, I believe, you are God. At least, he has your personality, beliefs and morality. This is where you and I differ. My God is drastically different than myself, and is constantly challenging me to change. Your God tells you you're perfect the way you are, but you need to convince others to be the way you are so they, too, can be perfect.

I can empathize, though. I, too, was once there. It really is an empty belief, though had I been told that when I was where you are, I too would have reacted the same way you did after reading that.



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