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Originally posted by spamandham
I do not believe you have more insight into these things than I.
Originally posted by spamandham
Nor do I have any reason to suspect ancient men did either.
Originally posted by spamandham
So the answer to your question is, the consequeces are irrelevant until the basis is established. For all I know, this is all a grand experiment to extract the freethinkers - the diamonds in the rough, and dispose of all others. Are you willing to take that chance?
Originally posted by spamandham
The better assessment is that I am unwilling to trust in what appears to be BS.
Originally posted by spamandham
He has the knowledge and power to accomplish that.
Originally posted by spamandham
Are you calling his omnipotence or omniscience into question?!
Originally posted by spamandham
I don't reject god because 'i love sin'.
Originally posted by spamandham
I doubt I'm more of a sinner than the average Christian, and I also understand that from the Christian meme perspective, sin doesn't really even matter.
Originally posted by spamandham
I reject god because the term is undefined or incoherent, and there is no credible evidence. I reject leprechauns too.
Originally posted by spamandham
I've wasted too much of my life on this already. I will continue to try to learn, but my default assumption is 'false', as it should have been all along.
Originally posted by spamandham
You and I have discussed this many times already. By now I would expect you to know a little about me.
Originally posted by spamandham
The boogey man shows up after you have died, and snatches your soul into hell. God allows this because the boogey man has a treaty with god. Are you ready to believe yet?
Originally posted by spamandham
By the way, the proof that you believe is a cashiers check for $1000 made out and mailed to me. Better safe than sorry don't you think?
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
therefore science has NOTHING to do with faith. science has mountains of logical proof and material evidence. god has no logical proof and/or material evidence.
Wow...Do you really believe that? Are you able to look at a cell, a leaf, a quantum reaction, and not see how incredibly perfect the designs are? Are you not able to see any order in the universe? Does life not amaze you in both its complexity and its simplicity? Do you not see the sheer unlikelihood of any kind of life developing anywhere, much less higher life forms capable of reasoning, discovery and philosophy? Does it not amaze you that, while entropy is attacking all condensed matter, life somehow rejects this scientific principle and manages to form order out of chaos?
Do you really think there's no material evidence of a designer of the universe?
Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Wow...Do you really believe that? Are you able to look at a cell, a leaf, a quantum reaction, and not see how incredibly perfect the designs are? Are you not able to see any order in the universe? Does life not amaze you in both its complexity and its simplicity? Do you not see the sheer unlikelihood of any kind of life developing anywhere, much less higher life forms capable of reasoning, discovery and philosophy? Does it not amaze you that, while entropy is attacking all condensed matter, life somehow rejects this scientific principle and manages to form order out of chaos?
Do you really think there's no material evidence of a designer of the universe?
Very good Jake. The principles that you listed above each individual must figure out. The complexities of these type matters is what makes it so very interesting.
Many scientists are after the ole "GOD particle" ya know. It will be very interesting in the coming years whether they have the ability to pinpoint what that particle is. Many are scientists with a very firm belief in GOD and a creator.
I am wagering, however, that they are never quite able to isolate the particle. This is the energy that keeps things up and running, brings order from chaos, etc.
Many like to argue with really no basis that science and GOD don't go together. GOD would not have given man the ability to solve many problems if he wanted it any different.
I guess if one is looking for "bonafide" truth. I suggest looking in the mirror.
Originally posted by junglejake
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
therefore science has NOTHING to do with faith. science has mountains of logical proof and material evidence. god has no logical proof and/or material evidence.
Wow...Do you really believe that? Are you able to look at a cell, a leaf, a quantum reaction, and not see how incredibly perfect the designs are? Are you not able to see any order in the universe? Does life not amaze you in both its complexity and its simplicity? Do you not see the sheer unlikelihood of any kind of life developing anywhere, much less higher life forms capable of reasoning, discovery and philosophy? Does it not amaze you that, while entropy is attacking all condensed matter, life somehow rejects this scientific principle and manages to form order out of chaos?
Do you really think there's no material evidence of a designer of the universe?
Originally posted by saint4God
Ah, so because you haven't experienced God yet, there's no way anyone else could've possibly either?
Originally posted by saint4God
I am a freethinker, so there is no danger to me.
Originally posted by saint4God
If it appears to be, then you do not know. If you do not know, why do you preach against it?
Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by spamandham
He has the knowledge and power to accomplish that.
Sure He does, but He isn't going to run your life for you. Why would He create a race of mindless zombies?
Originally posted by saint4God
It certainly may be the case that you sin less than some Christians. But then again, what's the difference between 703,582 sins and 708,568 sins? Should one "qualify" for heaven while the other does not?
Originally posted by saint4God
How many times are you going to say that before getting up and going to get proof?
Originally posted by saint4God
Now we're getting to the bottom line, which is what I'm most interested in. What did you trust and how did it fail you?
Originally posted by saint4God
Oh, by boogeyman, you mean Satan?
Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by spamandham
By the way, the proof that you believe is a cashiers check for $1000 made out and mailed to me. Better safe than sorry don't you think?
I don't understand. Can you re-phrase?
Originally posted by Fromabove
Faith has everything to do with anything. Cities are built on faith. You actually have to believe you can accomplish something before you try to do it. Faith is your belief in action to do it or receive it. Faith alone does not make it so. If I believe I can flap my arms and fly, I may believe that I can fly, but it doesn't make it so. So if I believe there are such things as atoms, it will take faith to keep at it till I can show that there is. Faith in science works like this. A belief. A hypothesis. A theory. A fact or proof. Your faith pushes you onward to show the results. Even Darwin must have had faith to believe he was on to something or he would have given up and went back home. Faith in God works like this. A belief. A demonstration. A proof. Not all science is accepted and not all religion is accepted. As for my part, I have seen miracles science could never explain. I've actuall seen diseased people healed. I've seen demons forced out of people. I've seen multiple times answer to prayer. Not because I am any different than anyone else but because I believe. But so I have my evidence from my faith. And whether you trust in science or God, all things take faith. The approach is the difference.
Fromabove
Originally posted by spamandham
I have experienced "god".
Originally posted by spamandham
I have had the same experience when I was a Catholic, a Southern Baptist, and now and atheist. If this experience is in fact communion with god, then he doesn't limit it to those who believe one thing vs. another. I have no reason to believe those who tell me otherwise, and direct experience to contradict such claims. If you wish to claim these experiences are god, and you also claim god concerns himself with your beliefs, it's up to you to reconcile why so many people of diverse beliefs have such experiences.
Originally posted by spamandham
The simplest explanation of course is that such experiences are natural and provide no evidence at all of anything metaphysical.
Originally posted by spamandham
You acknowledge you might be wrong? I guess I hadn't percieved that.
Originally posted by spamandham
I guess I don't consider it preaching to call people on the carpet for making unsubstantiated outrageous claims, nor do I consider it preaching to openly state my positions, particularly when I've been asked to do so.
Originally posted by spamandham
However, I am as certain of the nonexistence of god as I am of the nonexistence of leprechauns. Could I be wrong on either or both counts? Yes.
Originally posted by spamandham
I do not accept the concept of absolute certainty, except when it can not be avoided, and in regards to definitions.
Originally posted by spamandham
Does god have the knowledge and power necessary to convince someone who has high but not insurmountable standards!? - "yes" or "no"?
Originally posted by spamandham
No coersion is necessary on his part, nor is it required that he turn me into a zombie. All he has to do is unambiguously show up to the party - a simple feat I would think for an omni^3 being.
Originally posted by spamandham
You're missing the point. The point has to do with me not god. I reject god because there's nothing credible to indicate the existence of such beings, not because I love sin or the other usual apologetic nonsense that presume you already believe.
Originally posted by spamandham
I have proven it to my own satisfaction already.
Originally posted by spamandham
Why do you presume there was a failure of trust? I lost faith via knowledge not because of some emotional catharsis.
Originally posted by spamandham
No, the boogeyman is not satan. The boogeyman is an actual man.
Originally posted by spamandham
If you truly believe in the boogeyman, you will send me $1000 as proof. I'm one of his agents. If you don't prove your faith, he will drag you to hell when you die. Better safe than sorry, right? We can set up a payment plan if need be, but you best hope you don't die before the last payment is made.
Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by spamandham
I have experienced "god".
I didn't say experienced "god", I said experienced God.
Originally posted by saint4God
Explain away. Must be nice to dismiss things not understood.
Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by spamandham
You acknowledge you might be wrong? I guess I hadn't percieved that.
I've been wrong many times, and probably will be wrong again many times in the future. There is one thing that I know though.
Originally posted by saint4God
Very well then, if you agree I'm not preaching, then I'll say neither of us are doing so.
Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by spamandham
Does god have the knowledge and power necessary to convince someone who has high but not insurmountable standards!? - "yes" or "no"?
Yes.
Originally posted by saint4God
As I've said before, I don't believe you love sin. What I'm trying very desparately to get across is that you're showing a no motivation to find Him, yet seem to have ample motivation to tear Him down at every opportunity.
Originally posted by saint4God
You have proven He exists? Or are you easily satisfied that he doesn't?
Originally posted by saint4God
*knocks* That's a pretty tough wall you've built up there. Mind letting down the drawbridge so I can come in to talk?
Originally posted by saint4God
I've not met him then, but know the origin of the name. He should be dead by now, unless someone else picked up the name.
Originally posted by spamandham
"God" is not someone's name, nor does it refer to a specific deity. Just becase I no longer presume such things doesn't imply I never have.
Originally posted by spamandham
I understand them as well as you do I suspect. I have no idea how many times you and I have had this same conversation. It's time for you to accept what I've told you or write me off as a liar.
Originally posted by spamandham
If you deny you could be wrong about that one thing, then you are not the freethinker you claimed to be.
Originally posted by spamandham
I agree that I have not witnessed you preaching on this board.
Originally posted by spamandham
Well then, my time will come if you're right.
Originally posted by spamandham
He can overcome my lack of motivation if he is omni^3.
Originally posted by spamandham
I have proven to my own satisfaction that God (happy?)
Originally posted by spamandham
does not exist as an objective reality. God exists only in the minds of believers. (or gods for polytheists)
Originally posted by spamandham
You don't get it, the bridge is down.
Originally posted by spamandham
...well at least you are demonstrating a willingness to short shrift the patently absurd in some cases...
I'm not really sure what you mean about the "God" particle,
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
for every universe that is perfect there are an infinite number of universes that cannot even support themselves and blink out of existence the second they are created. it follows logically that the only universe in which we could notice the perfection is the only one we could exist in. understand?
i do believe there is no evidence for a designer because i do not believe a designer exists. also, the designer would need a designer/creator, thus creating a paradox.
Originally posted by junglejake
Azza, your assumption is that everyone is worshipping the same God, just in their own way. This is not scripturally sound in Christianity, though. You're trying to argue with Saint4God with an assumption he does not share. I believe that the place to begin the argument from your perspective would be to parallel Christianity's God's personality with those of other faiths before assuming Saint4God accepts that Allah is the same as JHVH.