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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 07:04 AM
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Do you read my responses in turn, or do you not care?

True, some don't mind things being FORCED upon them. They accept, and maybe even convert. Others do. And that is the point.

Let us say I am a Pagan worshipper of a God Of Lust. (I am not, this is a point being made). In your Courthouse you have your 10 Commandments, and maybe even a nice painting of Moses. There are you 'nice to look at flowers' that you state you don't have to have because your world is the next life... not this empty shell. I get a commision to put up my Hedonistic Orgy. 4 guys and 3 girls nude, in a daisy chain including homosexuality. Do you, Good Christian, say "My right to have MY WORKS displayed is being preserved. So I can and will accept this IN A PUBLIC FORUM." IS THAT TRULY THE STANCE YOU TAKE

Do you take the view that such an act by a Pagan would NOT be FORCING things upon the general public? Would you stand by and calmly say, "Such is fine." Or would you go all Holier Than Thou and preach that such a horrid act should be abolished?

As for Seperation of Church and State. Schools are ran by the State. In Schools you can not have open prair, only a moment of silence to be observed. Teachers have been fired for wearing religious jewlery, such as crosses.




posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 07:15 AM
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Originally posted by BradKellBrrexkl
Do you read my responses in turn, or do you not care?


I responded point-by-point, where you decided to give a repetitious speech. It's very disheartening to know that my responses aren't worth your time. But it's a free country.


Originally posted by BradKellBrrexkl
True, some don't mind things being FORCED upon them. They accept, and maybe even convert. Others do. And that is the point.


Indigo Children. Would you like to address yet? No, nevermind, it's apparent to me you don't care.


Originally posted by BradKellBrrexkl
Let us say I am a Pagan worshipper of a God Of Lust.


You're a Pagan worshipper of a god of Lust.


Originally posted by BradKellBrrexkl
(I am not, this is a point being made).


Okay, but you're really not.


Originally posted by BradKellBrrexkl
In your Courthouse you have your 10 Commandments, and maybe even a nice painting of Moses. There are you 'nice to look at flowers' that you state you don't have to have because your world is the next life... not this empty shell. I get a commision to put up my Hedonistic Orgy. 4 guys and 3 girls nude, in a daisy chain including homosexuality. Do you, Good Christian, say "My right to have MY WORKS displayed is being preserved. So I can and will accept this IN A PUBLIC FORUM." IS THAT TRULY THE STANCE YOU TAKE


As I've said before *sigh* I don't care what other religions want to hang their flags, signs or orgy statues in public places. "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." - Joshua 24:15


Originally posted by BradKellBrrexkl
Do you take the view that such an act by a Pagan would NOT be FORCING things upon the general public?


NO! It's not forcing anything. Why is this a hard concept? If an artist wishes to display the crucifixion in urine in public (which was/is done by the way), then it's his constitutional right, whether I like it or not.


Originally posted by BradKellBrrexkl
Would you stand by and calmly say, "Such is fine." Or would you go all Holier Than Thou and preach that such a horrid act should be abolished?


I would stand and say, "Such has no effect on my relationship with God".


Originally posted by BradKellBrrexkl
As for Seperation of Church and State. Schools are ran by the State. In Schools you can not have open prair,


Correction, teachers and administrators cannot lead a prayer. The student body is free to pray.


Originally posted by BradKellBrrexkl
only a moment of silence to be observed. Teachers have been fired for wearing religious jewlery, such as crosses.


Then they should sue. Constitutionally speaking of course.

One positive thing I'll give to your credit Brad, we're at least on topic.

[edit on 22-12-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 09:34 AM
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Firstly, I would just like to say for the record that I have no propblem with anyone worshipping who or what they want. I can no more convert a rock than anyone else for that matter. The Constitution of the US (if you know it) strictly forbids preventing the free expression of religion. I don't see where it says the "Christian" religion. That being said. The unbelievers somehow think that my arguments in behalf of a God Creator are "strawman agrguements". I don't need for anyone to believe in God as I do. But don't you think that not approaching this whole matter from the beginning is logical. Do we know that the universe had a beginning? Or was it always here? If it was we somehow come up with "eternity". If the universe had a beginning and I can say that I believe it came from a Creator God, how is this view a "strawman arguement". If anyone wants me to believe that it came from "nothing", this is definately the "strawman talking". If you want me to believe that it was always here and that it suddenly converted from something else, this too is the "strawman talking". Is impossible to argue that there is no God if you can't support it by any firm belief. I can say my belief hold water because it is a "theory" that can be stated. I don't think anyone (except maybe Chralie..) has even made any attempt to explain how it came to be. Everything else hangs on overcoming this fact. To say there is no God doesn't convince anyone of anything. Is there anyone who does not believe in a Creator God (forget about religions for a momment) who can give any reasonable theory as to how we got a universe. How and from what. Lastly, let me state what I believe.

The universe was created by a powerful intelligent being who does not exist in it, nor needs to get anything from it to be. Whatever "He" is, is not physical nor subject to the laws of the universe. I can logically say the He exists and created because I know I am in the universe and I can see it. The universe itself is my evidence of this belief. In support of this belief I offer that one physical substance cannot be gotten from nothing at all. That all substance requires that it come from something not from the universe and that it be done by force with a definate beginning.

Now, let's put the petty squabblings of man aside. Let's forget about the crusades and who's religion is best, or even if the word of God is found only in the "Christian" Bible. Surely there is an atheist out there that can offer a "reasonable" theory as to the universe and how and where it came from? Is there not? No one out there yet has been able to offer even a scientific viewpoint, theory, etc. Only ridicule, pictures of strawmen, and the claim. "know one knows". But I said that I do know. No one has risen to the table to counter it.

This goes all the way back to the first post given. This is the conspiracy against God. To deny that he is in order to exalt mankind to the place of God.

Fromabove



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
So even if we are successful in proving to spamandham the existence of a creator, we've achieved nothing. Have I misconstrued this statement at all spamandham?


No you haven't misconstrued it. Suppose the existence of a creator could be proven. It is not rational to jump to the Christian (or Muslim or Buddhist etc) preconception of that creator simply because it were shown the universe was created. You do not know that said creator cares about humans or even knows we exist. You could not know that this creator is even self aware.

Now suppose further you could even demonstrate intelligent design. You still have made no progress, because this isn't sufficient to know why life was intelligently designed, nor does it demonstrate the existence of some afterlife.

All this discussion about creators, evolution vs ID, etc. is totally irrelevant. What matters is whether or not there is an afterlife, and whether or not what we do/believe here and now impacts it.

The mere existence of a indeterminate creator, or even ID, is still irrelevant to our daily lives.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
Suppose the existence of a creator could be proven. It is not rational to jump to the Christian (or Muslim or Buddhist etc) preconception of that creator simply because it were shown the universe was created. You do not know that said creator cares about humans or even knows we exist. You could not know that this creator is even self aware.


Very much so. While I don't understand the context, the whole idea of starting discussion with the question of whether there is, or is not, a creator seems to me fraught with difficulties. On the other hand surely we may legitimately object when the age-old religious question -- was the universe made; did it make itself; or did it always exist -- is considered answered by the efforts of Darwin, and one particular religious position -- that it made itself -- is proclaimed as science, not religion.

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 12:00 PM
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Thanks for getting to the core spamandham, it's been many months and was hoping to hear about what really matters to you.


Originally posted by spamandham
What matters is whether or not there is an afterlife,


Yes, there is an afterlife.


Originally posted by spamandham
and whether or not what we do/believe here and now impacts it.


Yes, what we believe here and now impacts it. What we do is a result of what we believe.

This is good. What else would you like to know?



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 01:06 PM
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I not sure I understand this, Spamandham, do you believe there is an actual afterlife ? If so, who or what governs it ? Why should there be one, you can't see it much as you can't see God. I believe in both.

Fromabove



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Yes, there is an afterlife.


I'm sorry, that doesn't cut it.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 01:19 PM
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The intention of this thread was to complain about the ACLU's war against anything Christian, about the corruption of the interpretation of the establishment clause, and a double standard.


The ACLU does not have a war against anything Christian. Nothing could be furthest from the truth. The ONLY intention the ACLU has is keeping religion out of the government. That was the intention of our founding fathers. They left their countries to come over here because of religious hijinks by the governments they left. Please don't give me the argument that our founding fathers were Christian. I know they were. I am too. I don't want my religion in the government. I don't want anyone's religion in the government. GOD does not need propping up by a government.

The ACLU could care less if anyone has anytype of religious display or anything as long as it is on PRIVATE property-not PUBLIC property.

Those that wish the government to become some sort of "religious" institution begin the slippery slide towards fanaticism that we currently are fighting.

The ACLU works for the rights of all Americans under the Constitution of the United States. ALL Americans. Ask the two former very Republican and very conservative representatives that joined.

I am a card carrying membe of the ACLU proud of it, and proud to be on the side of justice and GOD.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham
I'm sorry, that doesn't cut it.


What would cut it?



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by Fromabove
I not sure I understand this, Spamandham, do you believe there is an actual afterlife ?


No.

The point was that the existence of gods or intelligent design are still irrelevant unless that somehow impacts us. Even if it were possible to prove god existed, and if it were possible to prove we were designed with intent, it is still a leap of pure faith from that to Christianity.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
I'm sorry, that doesn't cut it.


What would cut it?


I have no idea, but it would have to be commensurate with the claim.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 01:49 PM
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You do not know that said creator cares about humans or even knows we exist. You could not know that this creator is even self aware.


Yes, the creator knows we exist. The creator runs thru everything. You keep denying yourself spam. The creator and we are all part of GOD's kingdom, and all of GOD's kingdom is up and running by the energy GOD has created.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Yes, the creator knows we exist. The creator runs thru everything. You keep denying yourself spam. The creator and we are all part of GOD's kingdom, and all of GOD's kingdom is up and running by the energy GOD has created.


The term 'creator' implies something distinct from the universe itself in my mind.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham
I have no idea, but it would have to be commensurate with the claim.


I see. And if I were to say that when this is actually seen it's too late to affect a positive future thereafter, what then?



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 05:15 PM
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Religion is great in Philosophy, but why most try to seperate it from Science (and why Religion steadfastly tried to silence Science).

As for the Indigo Children or not caring about responses, I do care about what I am learning and hearing here. However, I make it a point not to respond to things I know nothing about... or at least can not form a decent if not rickety theory on. Leads to nothing. With the Indigo Children, I am reading on them since I had no clue what they were when you mentioned them. I had most assuredly heard the term, but I know not what it means. I will get back to you once I have studied.

Now, even if your Indigo Children does debunk my blanket statement (and it may, I actually though you were going to come with Buddism or other pacifist groups... most of who are not Religions or Do Convert) it still does not prove that Christianity does not attempt this... and in attempting this does not FORCE Christianity upon others.

I do tend to try to stay on topic, so thanks for noticing!


P.S. I just want people to realize that no love is lost here. I am fully aware that not everyone feels the same about everything. In no way am I angered or alarmed at these responses, and I hope others are not angered or alarmed by me.

Truth be told, I believe in a Creator. I see no reason to attempt to Scientifically prove their is one, though I could see Science with a reason to Disprove one. After all, all Religion is a thing of FAITH. You must believe in that which you can not see or prove. By human nature that is a difficult concept, which is what makes Faith so valuable. If you could PROVE a Creator existed, there would be no need in Faith. You would simply believe it because you could see it. That takes no trusting, no power of will, no.... well, no LEAP.

If you BELIEVE in something even though you can't prove it, then you have Faith and TRULY BELIEVE. I see that being worthy of a Creator's attention.

Faith is the cornerstone of Religion. With Proof there is no need for Faith.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham
The point was that the existence of gods or intelligent design are still irrelevant unless that somehow impacts us. Even if it were possible to prove god existed, and if it were possible to prove we were designed with intent, it is still a leap of pure faith from that to Christianity.


Agreed spam i believe thats exactly true and if never taken that leap of pure faith to begin with an individual will not receive Him, fully if not at all,in a sense they are the ones deluding themselves and others this is not an attack its advice,once a person has found God he can never run from Him otherwise he never received Him in the first place.

Its not a figment of imagination on the part of Christians who have received Him and his Gift.

Question spam if i may,in your years spent in the Church did you never witness Gods Blessing on others and seen first hand the positive of Christianity.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
I see. And if I were to say that when this is actually seen it's too late to affect a positive future thereafter, what then?


...fallacy of consequence.

There is no reason to believe the consequences are real if the premise they are based on is unsubstantiated.

If god is real, all powerful, and all knowing, and he wants me to believe/accept/do X, then he knows what he needs to do to accomplish that, and he has the power to do it. The 'free will' argument is a red herring. It doesn't address the fundamental problem that there is no reason to believe anything you are telling me regarding gods/afterlife/etc. in the first place.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 06:12 PM
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Originally posted by gps777
... if never taken that leap of pure faith to begin with an individual will not receive Him, fully if not at all,in a sense they are the ones deluding themselves and others this is not an attack its advice,once a person has found God he can never run from Him otherwise he never received Him in the first place.


How can it possibly be considered delusion to not believe things for irrational reasons? Nice little meme you've put together though; anyone who leaves the faith must never have really been a part of it.


Originally posted by gps777
Question spam if i may,in your years spent in the Church did you never witness Gods Blessing on others and seen first hand the positive of Christianity.


I did witness some people benefit emotionally from faith. At the time I would have called it god's blessing, but now call it a security blanket. As much as it soothes you, it also stifles emotional maturity and reduces the motivation to right oppressions.



posted on Dec, 22 2005 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham
How can it possibly be considered delusion to not believe things for irrational reasons? Nice little meme you've put together though; anyone who leaves the faith must never have really been a part of it.

I meant from a perspective of those who have received Him to those who hav`nt fully or not at all are in that sense deluding themselves and if you could entertain that for a sec those who leave and say there was nothing there did`nt receive it to begin with would be true also.



I did witness some people benefit emotionally from faith. At the time I would have called it god's blessing, but now call it a security blanket. As much as it soothes you, it also stifles emotional maturity and reduces the motivation to right oppressions.


From my expeirence i`ve seen extremely emotional mature Christians 100% more than the way they used to be anyway i`ve witnessed that and thank God for it,i`d also go so far to say more mature that the norm.

The security blanket comment i`ve never really thought about until now and that Christ as security is soothing,so i`ll agree with you ,reduces motivation?well that is your own personal opinion in what motivates you agreed?




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