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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Oct, 11 2005 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
good point.

the way JJ put it was as if christians didn't need the OT, why then do they print the bible with both...would save on paper and reading time if it was just the NT. but then again all the prophecies about jesus are in the OT, so they don't agree with some parts but the on parts like prophecy in the OT they do agree on.


So...did I dismiss it with absloutly no justification at all, but simply because JJ says so? A more detailed answer to this is coming, but I want to be able to actually back my stance with scripture in order to not just say, "it is so", and expect people to accept that. The Old Testament was fulfilled in Christ, and all of it is needed, to keep a soon to be long answer short. More on that later, though.




posted on Oct, 11 2005 @ 09:33 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham
Is your "master" allowed to beat you?


Only financially. In fact, after this merger (slave-trade) I will no longer have bread and butter on my table from them. I hope I don't starve to death, but fortunately for me, there are many masters looking for slaves these days.


Originally posted by spamandham
Are you free to leave before the 7th year of the jubilee if you want to?


I work when they tell me to work, else no bread and butter. I believe vested for retirement is 5th year jubilee but don't expect much from it.


Originally posted by spamandham
All people, including your boss, are dependent on other people. The distinguishing trait of slavery is not dependency or even the necessity of work, but whether or not your legal rights are the same as your "masters".


Tomaeto, Tomahto, legal rights are determined by green in our capitalistic society.

Though my body is laboring for these earthly masters, my spirit is free from them. I know this will all turn to dust and I will be with my true Master soon, who does none of these oppressive things, rather guarentees eternal happiness. Can't beat that benefits package with anything on this earth.


Originally posted by spamandham
You should. Apologetics is a form of deception. It is an attempt to rationalize away blatant inconsistencies by searching for unsubstantiated possible loopholes.


As I said, if it's false I don't care for it. If it's true, who cares if it bears the label 'apologetics'. I think it's a lousy label since I don't apologize for what is written. Anything beyond what is written and is without understanding is speculation.


Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by saint4God
Humans can justify anything, often do, and typically when they're wrong. If it's right, there's no need to justify anything.


Certainly they can, and it's much easier to do so when you have a purported command of god himself to guide you in the process. The 10th commandment directly affirms that in god's eyes, it is legitimate for humans to own other humans. Why you, or any Christian, would defend this when these laws do not even theoretically apply to you is somewhat baffling.


I cannot change what is written, though will interject if I feel it is being misrepresented or misunderstood.


Originally posted by spamandham
And guess what, the Bible hasn't changed since then.


I thought the popular 'anti' argument was that it changed so much over the years and with many translations.



Originally posted by spamandham
The Bible still condones slavery even though our culture has moved beyond it. You will not find a single passage in the Bible that condemns slavery, but you will find numerous passages that support it. This fact alone should be enough to convince a skeptic that those books are not the word of god.


Already addressed per below:


Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by saint4God
How about Paul's writing to Philemon? Onesimus owed a great debt and by every legal right was to work it off as a slave.


This is a story about mercy, not a condemnation of slavery. v 18 implies the debt was due to theft.


Then that further reinforces the point.

Speaking of point. It'd be nice to get to the point instead of bickering over scriptural context. We should know by now on this thread as proof, that Christians do not have the power to change anyone or force anyone to believe anything. The root of the "Absolute Power of Christianity" comes from the following: Is God a part of your life? If not, do you want Him to be?

May God give you a wonderful miracle to show He's still there and still cares.

[edit on 11-10-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 11 2005 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by just me 2
They (my beliefs) are true.


No, they are lies.


Originally posted by just me 2
If you stand on the freeway, and say, “I don’t believe in trucks” but sooner or later, one is going to hit you!


But you can yell "I don't believe in Santa" as much as you want, without fear of North Polevenly consequences. The same for your god.



posted on Oct, 11 2005 @ 10:15 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
I hope I don't starve to death, but fortunately for me, there are many masters looking for slaves these days.


I suspect if these "masters" knew how you felt about your mutually beneficial relationship, there wouldn't be any of them looking for you.


Originally posted by saint4God
Though my body is laboring for these earthly masters, my spirit is free from them.


It is your own desires that enslave you, not these "masters". You really can leave anytime you want regardless of how much debt you have, or whether you have a family to support. It happens all the time involuntarily, and hardly any starves as a result. It just isn't fun. But the choice is real.


Originally posted by saint4God
If it's true, who cares if it bears the label 'apologetics'.


How many times have you claimed to be a skeptic?


Originally posted by saint4God
I cannot change what is written, though will interject if I feel it is being misrepresented or misunderstood.


Perhaps you can't change what is written, but your perspective can be changed regarding whether what is written is actually a command from god or not. Unless you manage to deceive yourself into thinking slavery and compensated service are the same (which are trying to do by equating your own positoin with that of a slave), you are left with an uncomfortable realization that the 10th commandment sanctifies that which you consider evil.


Originally posted by saint4God
I thought the popular 'anti' argument was that it changed so much over the years and with many translations.


touche



posted on Oct, 12 2005 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham
I suspect if these "masters" knew how you felt about your mutually beneficial relationship, there wouldn't be any of them looking for you.


Hehe, whatever. I'm employed which means they want me there.
I'm not sure what your background is on mergers, but most cuts aren't personal, but hiring folks is. I work in Personnel and get to see this kind of thing first hand.


Originally posted by spamandham
It is your own desires that enslave you, not these "masters". You really can leave anytime you want regardless of how much debt you have, or whether you have a family to support.


Those who support their family should say differently.


Originally posted by spamandham
It happens all the time involuntarily, and hardly any starves as a result. It just isn't fun. But the choice is real.


A year ago, I met a person holding up a sign asking for food, work or whatever could be spared. I pulled over and spoke to her on that November day. She was, in fact, starving. She said she was an accountant in the city nearby and was let go, unable to get a job. I asked if she had any savings, etc. She said she'd been out of work for four months, and thus the savings was gone. I asked if she had family to help her, she said none. I asked with her college education if she could certainly pick up a job from the paper or computer. She asked me if I have been watching the industry in the area. She said that she wasn't the only one, and competition is tight since many, many accountants have been laid off. Her story was legit, she wasn't making anything up. The detail was sound and being in business myself understood what was going on at the time. She was actively seeking a job but finding it hard with no contact phone number or permanent address. Next time you see someone on the streets, ask them for your story. After listening to it with a thinking mind and an open heart, I'd like to know who would then say, "Suck it kid, it's a tough world out there, go get a job." She didn't want me to feel sad or sorry for her because she said, "God has blessed me so much that I know everything is going to be just fine." And you know what? She was right. She had more hope and future than the Vice President of any corporation I've ever known.


Originally posted by spamandham
How many times have you claimed to be a skeptic?


A good number I think.


Originally posted by spamandham
Perhaps you can't change what is written, but your perspective can be changed regarding whether what is written is actually a command from god or not. Unless you manage to deceive yourself into thinking slavery and compensated service are the same (which are trying to do by equating your own positoin with that of a slave), you are left with an uncomfortable realization that the 10th commandment sanctifies that which you consider evil.


Were slaves compensated for their work? Yes or no answer please.


Originally posted by spamandham
touche


I do enjoy these conversations and am learning a lot. I know it doesn't get said often, but I do appreciate you being here.



posted on Oct, 12 2005 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Those who support their family should say differently.


It's still your choice even if you have a family. It is your own desires to have a family and support them that enslaves you.


Originally posted by saint4God
A year ago, I met a person holding up a sign asking for food... She had more hope and future than the Vice President of any corporation I've ever known.


What more proof do you need? Your own fears are the only thing enslaving you.


Originally posted by saint4God
Were slaves compensated for their work? Yes or no answer please.


I think so, but that isn't the defining characteristic of slavery.


Originally posted by saint4God
I do enjoy these conversations and am learning a lot. I know it doesn't get said often, but I do appreciate you being here.


Thanks! I enjoy them too.



posted on Oct, 12 2005 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham
It's still your choice even if you have a family. It is your own desires to have a family and support them that enslaves you.


Consider me a happy slave
. Not everyone feels this way nor has a family because they want one.


Originally posted by spamandham
What more proof do you need? Your own fears are the only thing enslaving you.


I agree that unnecessary fear needs to be kicked out. In other cases though (like losing family) the fear serves a necessary purpose. If anyone just doesn't care about their family, I'd say that's a problem.


Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by saint4God
Were slaves compensated for their work? Yes or no answer please.


I think so, but that isn't the defining characteristic of slavery.


I appreciate the candid answer, and think then my analogy isn't a great stretch of the imagination.


Originally posted by spamandham
Thanks! I enjoy them too.


Woot!



posted on Oct, 12 2005 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by MonkeyBoy
I don't know if it's covering up the truth or rather simply ignoring it.

I think the problem may lie is that people both Christians and non-Christians can tell the difference between Christianity the faith and Christianity the religion.

Christianity the faith teaches to love one another, help your fellow man, serve others, turn the other cheek, etc.

Christianity the religion perverts the message of the faith. Religions and religious leaders like to pick and choose which doctrine to follow and how to "adapt" (re: interpret) those doctrines to fit within their lifestyle and the lifestyle of congregation.


Christianity is just one of many religions and philosophies. If you truly dedicate time and soul to studying religion and philosophy you will find that a hole in one can be filled by something from another. There is something truthful and beneficial is almost every line of thought. Although, it's hard to find in some, it's there is you try. The human dilemma is simply ignorance and has always been so. An inability to accept conflicting view points for what they truly are; a chance to know yourself better.I believe that "God" put different cultures and ideas on earth so that each can pull from the other what they are lacking. Of course, there is a delicate balancing act involved here. You have to ingest what's good for you and refuse what is not without any bitter judgement. This involves a responsibility to opening up and murdering your judgement of others. But personal responsibility is not what organized religion is about if you ask me. It's about the same thing that government is about; believing you need to be lead instead of leading yourself. Followers of organized religion have worsened this lesser than another mentality by contradicting themselves saying they are the chosen people and in the "right". If you are here you are chosen. Know yourself and know your role. Nothing else matters.

[edit on 12-10-2005 by somajoe]

Mod Edit: Fixed Quote Tag.

[edit on 12/10/2005 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Oct, 12 2005 @ 05:24 PM
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what we need are BOLD religious and political leaders who aren't afraid to realize we have, as a human race, our heads up our asses. perpuating ignorance is easy but breaking the mold requires painstaking truth. and the truth is there is no ONE truth or no ONE angle. Too many "right" angles and not enough variation.



posted on Oct, 12 2005 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake

Stop forcing your beliefs on us

We've all heard it on here and in our day to day lives. Christianity, by being in the public square, is forcing its views on people. I find the use of the word "force" very interesting.


I think what people really mean when they use the word “force” is that Christians are always trying to “save” non-Christians by converting them to Christianity because they feel that if they don’t their God will send all those unsaved people (regardless of their morality, spirituality, or karma) to Hell.

Likewise, I find the use of the word “public” very interesting. Public implies that the space belongs to everyone not just Christians, and so the space should not be used to endorse Christianity. You people are free to go into public places and preach fire and brimstone, but it goes against the law of the land to use public funds (taxes) and public real estate to erect statues of Jesus on the cross or of the virgin Mary (or of Mohamed or Krishna or Buddha for that matter). This is America, not Saudi Arabia. We’re a Democracy, not a Theocracy.

It’s all in the Constitution; you should try and read it sometime.


When people are saying that Christians having the Ten Commandments in the public square or sharing their faith is forcing their beliefs upon them, they're pretty much admitting Christianity is the Truth. If being exposed to it forces you to become a Christian, it must be the most powerful message ever to have been created (in my opinion, it is).


You are very confused as to what people mean when they say the word “force” and the context in which they use it in. Christians seldom “share” their faith. “Sharing” implies that they are simply telling people “hey, I’m a Christian, this is what I believe” you know, like show and tell. No, what you are referring to is evangelism. You try to convert people to your religion using fear as your primary motivating factor. What exactly do I mean by that? You use the fear that comes with the uncertainty of death and the afterlife to try and convince people that if they are not “saved” they will be tortured in Hell for all eternity. It seems like an easy choice, burn in Hell forever or pay lip service to Jesus for your ticket into Heaven. What you’re referring to as “sharing” is Christians going out and basically saying “hey, I’m a Christian, this is what you should believe because, if you don’t, you’re going to Hell”.

Some of us would rather be good people for the sake of being good, rather than the fear of punishment for being evil.

I wish I had my tape recorder with me all those times I’ve run across some misguided ***hole trying to convert people on the street corner so that I could post an example of just what you mean by the word “share”.

Going back to your creative use of the word “force”, I don’t think that whenever people use the word “force” it’s admitting that the view being “forced” upon is necessarily the truth. Christians are always talking about the liberals in America forcing their “atheist and secular ideology” on people. Christians are always complaining that public schools are forcing the “joke science” (I’ve heard Christians use those exact words on multiple occasions) of Evolution onto their children. There’s always talk about the homosexuals forcing their lifestyle onto others, or at least forcing others to accept their lifestyle as equally valid as a heterosexual one. Does this mean that in your words “being exposed” to these things “forces” you to become an atheist, become a homosexual, or believe in evolution? Does it mean that when Christians say these things are being “forced” upon them they are “pretty much admitting” Atheism, homosexuality, and Darwinism is “the Truth”? By your logic it does.

Your entire argument here is based upon there being multiple definitions and connotations of the word “force”, and while I will admit that it was a clever way of twisting words to validate your own beliefs, I think I’ve clearly demonstrated how inherently flawed and baseless it really is.


So I guess I agree, by Christians sharing the Gospel, they are, in fact, forcing their beliefs and God's will on you.


And I agree with you on the “their beliefs” part, though “God’s will” is subjective wouldn’t you agree? The 19 hijackers who crashed planes into the pentagon and the WTC on 09/11/2001 were carrying out what they believed to be “God’s will” right? Oh but wait, that’s not “your” God, that’s “their” God. Let me bring up a different example, in 1997 Eric Rudolph bombed an Abortion clinic in Atlanta, then later that year a Gay nightclub in the same city, and finally another abortion clinic in 1998 located in Birmingham Alabama (Rudolph is most famous for his 1996 bombing of the Olympic games).

He firmly believed it was all part of “Gods (Christ’s, not Allah’s) Will”.

Having said that I think what you wrote should actually read:


So I guess I agree, by Christians sharing the Gospel, they are, in fact, forcing their beliefs and THEIR God’s will on you.


Because we can clearly see by the examples I’ve given that many people think they are receiving messages from God or carrying out “God’s will”. Though it’s unclear who’s getting messages from the “real” God, and who’s just hearing voices (or as Christians would put it “Satan’s lies”) in their head.

If one of these people is not hearing God, then isn’t it possible that they all (including you) aren’t? And if a few people really are hearing God then isn’t it possible that God can talk to everyone? Or does God only talk to Christians (even the ones that bomb abortion clinics)?


Now for the conspiracy aspect. If this Truth is so convincing to so many people, why is there such a concerted effort to silence it?


You use Truth with a capital “T”, in the transcendental, Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau sense of the word. In order for something to be a capital “T” truth, doesn’t it have to be proven beyond all (reasonable and unreasonable) doubt? You can hardly say this about the bible or Christianity in general.

My advice to you is to be careful of your rhetoric in the future; you’re only giving your detractors more ammunition by making unsupportable claims.


We defend people like Robert Byrd and David Duke, who spouted hate in the KKK for so many years, yet we freak out if someone spouts love in the public arena.


First off, on your comments about Robert Byrd and David Duke, don’t you think it’s equally ironic that we defend (or at least don’t call into question) George W Bush for kicking off his campaign at Bob Jones University?

I won’t go into detail on Robert Byrd’s and David Duke’s history, one of them is an unapologetic racist, the other saw through the bull****. What I would like to point out however, since you brought the KKK into this argument is that if you go to Klan’s official website you’ll find out the heading of their front page reads “Welcome to the Ku Klux Klan! Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America! A Message of Love NOT Hate!” You can reach it by clicking here (www.kkk.com).

And at the bottom of their main page you can see these two graphics:



(caption) "God's Way - Kind after Kind - different cultures - A Beautiful Rainbow - And the Lord Said His Creation was GOOD!"


(caption) "Satan's Way - He Hates God's Creation - He Hates Diversity - He Only Wants One Race - One Culture - Race Mixing is Satanic - It is WRONG! Dont Destroy The Rainbow!"

Along with the text:



Love the Diversity of God's Creation 
Practice Racial Integrity
Don't Race Mix
Imagine the world with only one race - only one culture - Is that really what you want?
...Because that WILL be the End result 
 Think about it!


Care to explain how this message fits into the “love” of Christianity? Actually don’t, I already know what you’re gonna say: “that’s not my Christianity.” Well who says which version of Christianity is right and which is wrong?

Christians are hardly spouting “love” in the public arena; rather, they’re spouting hate for all non-Christians. And please don’t try and tell me that condemning people to Hell for all eternity for not being Christian (and deeming all other religions as Satan's work) is not spouting hate.

I think the negativity towards Christianity comes from people like you trying to push it as an absolute Truth, rather than a belief which is what it really is. One of my best friends is a Christian, the real kind, the kind that takes Jesus’ message to heart. You know, judge not lest ye be judged? He has no problem with homosexuals and doesn’t believe they’re going to hell for being born that way. He doesn’t try and “save” people because he realizes that other religions are just as valid as his own. He actually practices the teaching of Jesus rather than trying to get other people to practice it. And he never goes to church; you know why? Because he says, there are too many hypocrites and self righteous ***holes that believe they’re on a mission to save the world when really what they should be worried about is saving themselves.

Most “Christians” would say that my friend isn’t a “real” Christian, simply based on the fact the he doesn’t share the same extremist views as they do.

You know when the hatred towards (evangelical) Christianity will end? When you guys abandon the arrogant view that yours is the only “true” religion, and that all others are Satanic in nature, their only purpose being to lead people away from Jesus Christ. Because the rest of us know that Jesus isn’t the only way into Heaven.

[edit on 12-10-2005 by ShakyaHeir]



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 06:54 AM
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Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
Because the rest of us know that Jesus isn’t the only way into Heaven.


Actually he is. You had some good points otherwise. As Christians we should be exercising love, as that is a vital foundation of our belief.

[edit on 13-10-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 10:28 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
Because the rest of us know that Jesus isn’t the only way into Heaven.


Actually he is.


This is exactly the kind of ignorance I'm talking about and this is the main reason why people like yourself will continue to be hated by people like myself.

*sigh*

So what makes you think Jesus is the only way into Heaven? Because the bible tells you so? Because your pastor tells you so? What makes your sources the authority when it comes to the afterlife, because they just are?

Excuse me if your reasoning sounds like a four year old's.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by ShakyaHeir


This is exactly the kind of ignorance I'm talking about and this is the main reason why people like yourself will continue to be hated by people like myself.

*sigh*

So what makes you think Jesus is the only way into Heaven? Because the bible tells you so? Because your pastor tells you so? What makes your sources the authority when it comes to the afterlife, because they just are?

Excuse me if your reasoning sounds like a four year old's.


So, someone believing Jesus to be the only way, and proclaiming so, is enough to provoke Hate from you? Fair enough, disagree. Fair enough, debate. But is it rational to hate someone for their beliefs, especially when those beliefs have no influence over your life whatsoever?

Why not just think to yourself "Know what, I don't believe in God, and probably never will, I think it's safe to ignore all those crazy christians and the like, they aren't harming me and I sure ain't gonna change their minds". No one forces christianity down your throat, you can be told about it but you cannot be forced by another person to believe it.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
This is exactly the kind of ignorance I'm talking about


What's 'ignorant' about it? Going by the definition of ignorance of course.


Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
and this is the main reason why people like yourself will continue to be hated by people like myself.

*sigh*


I don't hate you, I don't know you, I'm not angry with you, so what have I done to stir such a violent emotion from you?


Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
So what makes you think Jesus is the only way into Heaven? Because the bible tells you so? Because your pastor tells you so? What makes your sources the authority when it comes to the afterlife, because they just are?


Well...


Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
Excuse me if your reasoning sounds like a four year old's.


Oh! I see you've presumptuously answered for me. As I was saying. Well, if you were to look through my previous posts on this thread, then the answer is there and it is none in your list. Sorry to disappoint your already anticipated response.

As far as the question of authority, if it's not clear by now whoms authority I serve, then "neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things".

By the way, I think you're doing an excellent job illustrating JJ's point.

[edit on 13-10-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by chebob
Why not just think to yourself "Know what, I don't believe in God, and probably never will, I think it's safe to ignore all those crazy christians and the like, they aren't harming me and I sure ain't gonna change their minds".


If the statement in bold were true, no-one would care what you believe. Unfortunately, the most powerful man in the world thinks Jesus talks to him and tells him to blow the crap out of the middle east. The insanity faith fosters (Christian, Jewish, and Muslim in this case) is bringing humanity to the edge of extinction. It isn't harmless.


Originally posted by chebob
No one forces christianity down your throat, you can be told about it but you cannot be forced by another person to believe it.


But you can be forced to profess belief, which is just as bad. If the Christian right has it's way, the US will become a theocracy.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 11:57 AM
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George Bush wouldn't be the first person to use God as an excuse for violence I know, but one mans insanity doesn't define a religion. Atheists go out and murder people day after day after day. Does this mean not believeing in God is equally dangerous and harmful? No, we are all responsible for our actions, and believeing in God is certainly not harmful to you or me. Bush may be harmful, but christianity isn't. So when someone says "I believe in God", they are not attacking you, they are not attacking your beliefs and they are not putting you in danger. To hate someone for believeing, is incredulous.

And about it being forced down your throat - I'm not clued up on the USA way and your government may well be ramming things down your throat, in which case - bummer. But in the UK, "shoving down throat" consists of Songs of Prayer on TV on a Sunday and Religious Education lessons, which in my experience focused on all the worlds other religions and Aesops fables. In fact, most of our media and population seem to view God as a Taboo, something not spoken about and seen as "kooky", so theres not much to be rammed down ones throat. In fact, rather than have it forced upon me, I found God when I was at the height of atheism. Rather than being told and forced to believe, I was deprived of any information or encouragement, and "found God (to use a cheesy phrase)" completely of my own accord, and to my surprise.

I have never witnessed religion being forced upon anyone, only by extremists, who as we all know are just Religions version of atheist criminals. Both religion and atheism have their share of madmen, the World is packed full of em so they have to fit everwhere, but that doesn't make God responsible, bad, evil, forceful or wrong, it simply reflects the individuals true personality.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
What's 'ignorant' about it? Going by the definition of ignorance of course.


I'll elaborate on this after I've read your posts, sorry for getting ahead of myself.


I don't hate you, I don't know you, I'm not angry with you, so what have I done to stir such a violent emotion from you?


You've marginalized my religion. But of course you could never see how that's a problem, because in your eyes, you "love" me and therefore want me to see the "truth" of Christianity so that I can go to Heaven instead of burning in Hell.


Oh! I see you've presumptuously answered for me.


Sorry for thinking you were going to give the stock Christian response to this question. I retract that statement until I've read this entire thread. Though I really hope you've posted something more substantial than "proof" that the Bible is the unerring word of God.


As far as the question of authority, if it's not clear by now whoms authority I serve, then "neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things".


It's certainly not God's. You might beleive it is, but so do the terrorists.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
I'll elaborate on this after I've read your posts, sorry for getting ahead of myself.


No worries, thanks for taking a look back through. Sorry for my tone, I thought I'd have to go through it all again.


Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
You've marginalized my religion. But of course you could never see how that's a problem, because in your eyes, you "love" me and therefore want me to see the "truth" of Christianity so that I can go to Heaven instead of burning in Hell.


I don't understand how I marginalized your religion. And, of course I want the best possible outcome for you. Is that not part of love?


Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
Sorry for thinking you were going to give the stock Christian response to this question. I retract that statement until I've read this entire thread. Though I really hope you've posted something more substantial than "proof" that the Bible is the unerring word of God.


I was directed to the Bible after finding God, not the other way around. I understand where you're coming from, as you may find both Christians and non-Christians do as well. Reading the Book or listening to a pastor won't save anyone. Both the Book and the pastor say (or should say in the case of pastors) that too.


Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
It's certainly not God's. You might beleive it is, but so do the terrorists.


What I quoted in my response was a give-away, and I certainly hope you see a difference between me and a terriorist. If not, perhaps it's best if I hang around longer.

[edit on 13-10-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by chebob
I'm not clued up on the USA way and your government may well be ramming things down your throat, in which case - bummer.


No ramming here either. In the same way you're not forced to buy Listerine to keep your teeth from falling out. You either want it or you do not want it. My job is only to make sure the shelf is stocked for those who do.


Originally posted by chebob
In fact, rather than have it forced upon me, I found God when I was at the height of atheism. Rather than being told and forced to believe, I was deprived of any information or encouragement, and "found God (to use a cheesy phrase)" completely of my own accord, and to my surprise.


Woot! To be accepted by the very One you rejected...now that's power.



posted on Oct, 13 2005 @ 12:45 PM
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Allrighty, I'm back after taking a day off from life to get a wee bit of healthy. Before I continue through that inconsistency list, I'd like to tackle a question DogWasCat presented two days ago:


Originally posted by DogWasCat
JJ,

In your opinion, how much of the OT applies to today's Christian? I have used the Sermon on the Mount to discredit the old "Eye for an eye..." mentality before, however, until now I thought that most Christians followed the OT as much as the NT.


Matthew 5:17-18:

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


Christ's coming changed a lot. He came, and died as the ultimate sacrifice. This passage from Matthew is interesting, because He says none of the Law will change...until everything is finished. In John 19:30, when Christ dies, he says,


30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.


Jesus was the ultimate sin offering, the sinless dying for the sinners. We can tell from the passage in Matthew, too, that there was going to be a time when the Law would change. Romans 10:4 states which laws still apply to the followers of Christ pretty bluntly:


4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.


Galatians 3:23-25 goes into more detail of the why, as, if you've read any of my posts regarding this type of thing from the past week, you're aware of:


23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.


Christ said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment." Like anyone you love, as that love grows, you want to please them, to make them happy. In so doing, we come to follow God's ways as directed by the Holy Spirit, which convicts us of sins we need forgiveness for, and acts as a sort of spiritual guide. We no longer put our faith in the Law, and thereby in ourselves to practice all of the law. Instead, we now put our faith in Christ, that He has fulfilled the Law, and He came to this earth to save us and free us.

Technically, Christians aren't even under the 10 commandments, though Christ repeats nine of the ten in the gospels. (He never mentions the Sabbath.) Simply, we are given two commands from God: Love God and love our neighbor. If, however, we love God, we won't be worshipping other Gods, nor will we be creating and worshipping idols. If we love our neighbor, we won't be stealing from them, killing them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them. We are commanded but to love Him and all the people on earth. We choose to follow the other commandments because we love God, and want to please him. This is what James was talking about, saying that with faith will come good works. Not because they're required, but because we want to do them.

That's also why James said faith without good works is dead; if you were truly faithful and loved God with all of your heart, mind and spirit, you would be doing good works because you want to please God.




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