The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by spamandham
Sorry Saint, but the Bible itself indicates the nature of the slaves of Hebrews. Slavery didn't simply mean "compensated servant" as apologists like to claim. Go read Exodus 21. If slaves were not beaten, then why were special regulations needed to deal with the beating of slaves?

I'm sure there were beatings, hence the need for regulation as you say. Bearing in mind that regulation came from God. So clearly, one who obeys God, should know (even though law had to be plainly put to those malevolent masters) that you're not to beat down your slaves. I came from a long line of slaves and can conclude that most of the people here did too unless one can prove they're royal lineage and how they 'happened' to land on Plymouth rock mistakenly. I am currently a slave and receive a bi-weekly paycheck because of it. People here get no say, liberty and freedom in their time here (unless they have one of those 'special' positions such as King...er...I mean President)

Originally posted by spamandham
Oh great, now we're pulling in Jewish apologetics sites as well. I understand that slavery was part of that culture, just as it was part of US culture 150 years ago. Were the Jews better masters than the surrounding cultures? Who knows, maybe archaeology will figure that out some day.

Hehe, I don't care what is 'apologetic' and what is not. All I care about is what is true. If there's something saying otherwise, I'd like to hear it equally as well.

As far as culturally who were the better masters, no clue. It's a fascinating topic. There are some who contend that most pre-Civil War slaves weren't poorly treated and were at a loss post-war not knowing what they were supposed to do since they were satisfied with the current arrangement. I don't know if that's true or not, but I do think unsupervised authority is at a high risk of abuse.

Originally posted by spamandham
But the 10 Commandments are claimed to be more than just the laws of ancient Hebrew culture, they are claimed to be the commands of god himself.

Ya. I think it's the only case where He physically wrote something. Check me though, not sure if I'm right on that.

Originally posted by spamandham
Yes and no. Females and children were also taken as slaves as spoils of war. The children of slaves became the property of the master as well. These facts are told us by the Bible itself.

Yeah, that's a part of that too. What percentage of 'spoils' vs. debt-owers I don't know. Again though, would be an interesting to take a closer look. I'm a debt-ower slave myself .

Originally posted by spamandham
I agree that desiring that which you can not obtain legitimately is a self destructive, although making it a capital offense is pretty rediculous.

How can coveting be proven? It's a law to set one's heart and thoughts, not actions. Rhetorical question: Do you obey the law when is appears no-one is watching or there seems to be no risk of getting caught?

Originally posted by spamandham
The real problem I have with #10 is it's sanctification of slavery. #10 and similar passages from the Bible were used to justify American slavery.

Humans can justify anything, often do, and typically when they're wrong. If it's right, there's no need to justify anything.

Originally posted by spamandham
And guess what, the Bible hasn't changed since then. The Bible still condones slavery even though our culture has moved beyond it. You will not find a single passage in the Bible that condemns slavery, but you will find numerous passages that support it. This fact alone should be enough to convince a skeptic that those books are not the word of god.

How about Paul's writing to Philemon? Onesimus owed a great debt and by every legal right was to work it off as a slave.


[edit on 11-10-2005 by saint4God]

Interestingly enough, my non-Christian friends don't see a problem, don't recognize that I'm going through a tough time, and I tend to hide it even more deeply in front of them.

This statement is of what I speak Jake. Why not come out with your problems with your non-Christian friends. Why hide it deeply from them? I have friends that I have never discussed "religion" or "spirituality" with yet if I mention my problems most are always willing to chip in. Most tell me I needs someone to brink beer with, etc. They are right.

Originally posted by junglejake
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them;

Exodus 20:3-5a


funny how this was written thousands of years after other gods had been created. it's written like the christian god was the first god ever. all it's saying is; be ignorant toward other religions, by having preconcieved notions that they are all worshiping satanic symbols and/or gods.

Why do you wear those symbols? Do you wear them because you worship Ra? Because you like to cause a reaction in others? How would you react if they were stolen, would you view it as loss of finances, or something very personal? If you know that they depict Ra, or a symbol or Ra, what is it you're proclaiming by wearing them?

i wear them as accessories. i don't worship ra or want to get a 'reaction' in others. if they were stolen i would view them as a small financial loss as they didn't cost much, but i'd be more frustrated because i'd have to buy them again, or something else. i'm not proclaiming anything by wearing them...i like the history of egyptian mythology, their culture and think the eye is a nice symbol.

I will grant you that, if we as Christians believed other religions were right, as well, it would be ignorance to not know them.

that quote you put above, basically is saying 'before you know about a religion, you must dismiss them as satantic, and their gods satanic'...that's just plain ignorance.

However, if we believed Christianity was the one true religion, as the Bible states in many places, would it not be foolish to turn away from it and seek other false Gods, against this commandment?

so because 'it says so' in the bible, it would be foolish to not believe it? the 'because i said so' or 'it says so' is a very weak argument. the fact that you're not going out to search other gods, is showing your ignorance because you believe them to be false and satanic before you know anything about them.

meh, nevermind.

[edit on 10-11-2005 by junglejake]

Originally posted by junglejake
shaunybaby, you've been here for a while. I'm assuming you've read many of my posts here on this thread and others where you've replied. You know I didn't come to believe in Christ "because it said so." "It" opened my eyes to God's existence, and opened my heart to the possibility, but it was only after 4 years of non-Biblical research that I came to a conclusion that Jesus is my savior. Call that ignorance if you'd like, but just be honest in the reason for your appraisal of me.

again you seemed to complete miss the point, on purpose or accident i don't know. i didn't comment on anything as to how you came to believe in jesus christ. i also didn't call what you say i called 'ignorant'. i said what was ignorant, was the belief that every other god apart from your own is satanic, or false, based on no logical thought whatsoever, apart from 'because it tells us to believe that in the bible'.

The logic lies in confirming that Christianity is correct. In confirming that most of Christianity that can be checked against other, more secular methods is accurate, there is no reason not to believe the other parts are false. As such, wouldn't it reasonably mean that the rest of the picture is accurate, as well? Therefore, what reason would we have to dismiss segments of the Bible that don't fit in the "wise" culture that accepts everything as true?

Originally posted by junglejake
You both are forgetting one critical piece of information. The Year Of Jubilee. Every seven years, the Jews were required to release all of their slaves,

The year of jubilee applied only to male Hebrew slaves. It did not apply to females or to non-Hebrew male slaves.

Originally posted by junglejake
If you enslaved someone a year before Jubilee, you only got one year of their services; the year after, seven years. There was an end in sight, though.

You are merely arguing that their version of slavery was not as evil as ours. Does god permit evil of lesser degrees?

Originally posted by junglejake
The logic lies in confirming that Christianity is correct.

you're not confirming christianity is correct though. all you're doing is dismissing other religions as satanic symbols and gods. it has nothing to do with 'proving' christianity is true. it has to do with ignorance of other religions. before you know anything about them you have to dismiss them as false or satanic.

Therefore, what reason would we have to dismiss segments of the Bible that don't fit in the "wise" culture that accepts everything as true?

i'm not saying we should accept everything as truth. there doesn't need to be any 'truth' to religion. people can become a part of a religion just to try a new spiritual side of themselves, or because they feel they need it in their lives...doesn't mean it has to be 'true'. i'm not saying you should pray to these other gods, but to accept them as false and satanic 'just because the bible says so' is ignorant.

Let me see, then, if I have this right. You're telling us that we should accept your philosophy, or we're ignorant. In your philosophy, you're telling us our religion is wrong, and we must accept your philosophy, otherwise we're being ignorant. Is that the gist?

Originally posted by junglejake
Let me see, then, if I have this right. You're telling us that we should accept your philosophy, or we're ignorant. In your philosophy, you're telling us our religion is wrong, and we must accept your philosophy, otherwise we're being ignorant. Is that the gist?

no i'm not saying your religion is wrong, and another is right, or vice versa. i'm not saying one is right over another. that's what i'm trying to get across because that's what a christian believes. that their religion is right, and the rest are wrong, but basing their beliefs on nothing other than 'the bible tells me i have to dismiss these other religions'. so no, keep trying, you might just get there in the end. maybe you could try and understand this before one of us dies.

hehe, well, my point is that Christianity does say it is the only true religion. You're telling me to accept others, as well. That is in direct contradiction of Christianity. Therefore, you're telling me to abandon my religion and accept yours.

Originally posted by saint4God
I am currently a slave and receive a bi-weekly paycheck because of it. People here get no say, liberty and freedom in their time here (unless they have one of those 'special' positions such as King...er...I mean President)

Is your "master" allowed to beat you? Are you free to leave before the 7th year of the jubilee if you want to? All people, including your boss, are dependent on other people. The distinguishing trait of slavery is not dependency or even the necessity of work, but whether or not your legal rights are the same as your "masters".

Originally posted by spamandham
Oh great, now we're pulling in Jewish apologetics sites as well. I understand that slavery was part of that culture, just as it was part of US culture 150 years ago. Were the Jews better masters than the surrounding cultures? Who knows, maybe archaeology will figure that out some day.

Originally posted by saint4God
Hehe, I don't care what is 'apologetic' and what is not.

You should. Apologetics is a form of deception. It is an attempt to rationalize away blatant inconsistencies by searching for unsubstantiated possible loopholes.

Originally posted by saint4God
Humans can justify anything, often do, and typically when they're wrong. If it's right, there's no need to justify anything.

Certainly they can, and it's much easier to do so when you have a purported command of god himself to guide you in the process. The 10th commandment directly affirms that in god's eyes, it is legitimate for humans to own other humans. Why you, or any Christian, would defend this when these laws do not even theoretically apply to you is somewhat baffling.

Originally posted by spamandham
And guess what, the Bible hasn't changed since then. The Bible still condones slavery even though our culture has moved beyond it. You will not find a single passage in the Bible that condemns slavery, but you will find numerous passages that support it. This fact alone should be enough to convince a skeptic that those books are not the word of god.

Originally posted by saint4God
How about Paul's writing to Philemon? Onesimus owed a great debt and by every legal right was to work it off as a slave.

This is a story about mercy, not a condemnation of slavery. v 18 implies the debt was due to theft.

Originally posted by junglejake
hehe, well, my point is that Christianity does say it is the only true religion. You're telling me to accept others, as well. That is in direct contradiction of Christianity. Therefore, you're telling me to abandon my religion and accept yours.

i didn't say that you had to accept mine. i don't have a religion. and yes that is what i've been saying all along 'christians believe they are the one true religion, and the rest are satanic frauds'. that's my whole point about you and christians being ignorant. i didn't say you had to believe in what i believe, i want to know 'why are you being ignorant, and why do you feel the need to follow christianity so closely, yet not as closely as they would have done 500-1000 years ago'?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i didn't say that you had to accept mine. i don't have a religion. and yes that is what i've been saying all along 'christians believe they are the one true religion, and the rest are satanic frauds'. that's my whole point about you and christians being ignorant. i didn't say you had to believe in what i believe, i want to know 'why are you being ignorant, and why do you feel the need to follow christianity so closely, yet not as closely as they would have done 500-1000 years ago'?

Trying to instill your philosophy of the acceptance of all earthly doctrines, into another person, is very much like trying to instill a religion on another person. If you want Christians to not force their religion on you, and respect your views, you must respect theirs.

If the Christian doctrine includes the notion that all other doctrines are subordinate, then you should respect that, and have no right to call the doctrine, and the followers thereof ignorant.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i didn't say that you had to accept mine. i don't have a religion. and yes that is what i've been saying all along 'christians believe they are the one true religion, and the rest are satanic frauds'. that's my whole point about you and christians being ignorant. i didn't say you had to believe in what i believe, i want to know 'why are you being ignorant, and why do you feel the need to follow christianity so closely, yet not as closely as they would have done 500-1000 years ago'?

Why do you believe scripture wasn't followed so closely 500-1000 years ago? Also, why is it just Christianity exclusively, when Islam and Judaism feel the same way?

EDIT: By the way, shaunybaby's not forcing anything on anyone. He's explaining what he sees as right, and believes people who don't feel that way are ignorant. It is understandable, I just don't know if calling people names will get them to abandon their own beliefs in favor of his.

[edit on 10-11-2005 by junglejake]

Although I was raised Christian, when you leave home, you finally decide whether or not to continue with it. I continued with it for another ~20 years. I had all the "personal experiences" the rest of you have, and in my own mind I truly believed I believed. But just like (almost?) everyone else, my actions proved I didn't really believe.

I accepted Christ at the age of 12 and never really experienced Him till I was 36 and went to a "Ladies Retreat" in which I rededicated my life back to Him. Before that (the inbetween years,) I lived a very sinful life that showed I didn't believe too. I claimed I did, but my actions denied Him.

After the retreat, I made a vow to read the Word all the time, pray daily, and to live for Christ. I have since read the entire Bible through, and the NT 2 or 3 times.
I have experienced Him one to One. Every time I pray about a certain person or situation, I will read something in the Bible or in a devotional that is an answer to that specific prayer. This has happened to me many, MANY times! Too many to be mere coincidences. This proves to me that God is REAL! Christ is REAL! The Bible is REALLY the Word of the LIVING GOD!

Consider this parable:
There once was a young child and a parent that was cooking something on a hot stove. The parent says to the child, "Don't touch the stove Johnny, it is very hot and you'll get burned if you do."
The child believes his mom, but that pretty orange colored stove is so irresistable that he touched it anyways.
He now doesn't just believe the stove is hot, he KNOWS it beyond the shadow of a doubt.

The child now has moved from the realm of belief to the realm of firsthand knowledge.
That is how true Christians are. We have experienced Him and His Mighty power, grace and mercy!

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Trying to instill your philosophy of the acceptance of all earthly doctrines, into another person, is very much like trying to instill a religion on another person. If you want Christians to not force their religion on you, and respect your views, you must respect theirs.

it has nothing to do with christians forcing their beliefs on me, or respecting my/their views. not sure where you got this from?

If the Christian doctrine includes the notion that all other doctrines are subordinate, then you should respect that, and have no right to call the doctrine, and the followers thereof ignorant.

so because it's a religious document it cannot be deemed as ignorant?

Originally posted by junglejake
Why do you believe scripture wasn't followed so closely 500-1000 years ago?

that's not what i said. i was saying that scripture was followed less close today, than it was 500-1000 years ago. you know like people would go around killing other religions because the bible told them to etc... (actually in the case of george bush...it still does happen that god will tell people to kill others) you don't no longer do that, hence don't follow the bible literally point by point. but you do follow it point by point on the subject of other religions, and them being false and satantic...i was curious as to why some parts are followed closely, some parts not so close?

Also, why is it just Christianity exclusively, when Islam and Judaism feel the same way?

you're right. they probably think they're religion is the one true one too. except i had no jewish or islamic person tell me what i'm wearing is satanic.

Originally posted by junglejake
By the way, shaunybaby's not forcing anything on anyone. He's explaining what he sees as right, and believes people who don't feel that way are ignorant. It is understandable, I just don't know if calling people names will get them to abandon their own beliefs in favor of his.

like i said it's not about right or wrong. i'm also not trying to get people to abandon their beliefs. you come across as thinking that it is indeed ignorant to take that stance with other religions, but it's o.k because you're a christian?



[edit on 11-10-2005 by shaunybaby]

Originally posted by just me 2

There once was a young child and a parent that was cooking something on a hot stove. The parent says to the child, "Don't touch the stove Johnny, it is very hot and you'll get burned if you do."
The child believes his mom, but that pretty orange colored stove is so irresistable that he touched it anyways.
He now doesn't just believe the stove is hot, he KNOWS it beyond the shadow of a doubt.

that just shows human's curious nature. i've done that too. i still do it while the electric pad on the cooker is heating up...i wanna see how quick it heats up. got nada to do with god. as for the rest of the thread

are you trying to prove to us that god exists because you say so? maybe you have become so religious because you feel guilty about your sins and all the bad things you've done in your life, and feel somehow you need to be guided to be kept away from that?

Woah...Where in the Bible does it tell us to kill others in a universal manner? I know there were specific incidences in the Old Testament when the Jews were taking and retaking Israel, but I'm unaware of the passage (in context) that talks about killing those who do not believe in Christ...

Originally posted by junglejake
Woah...Where in the Bible does it tell us to kill others in a universal manner? I know there were specific incidences in the Old Testament when the Jews were taking and retaking Israel, but I'm unaware of the passage (in context) that talks about killing those who do not believe in Christ...

read up about the slaughtering of cathars...maybe you could read up on who did the slaughtering too.