The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by spamandham
G'day. Didn't mean any slight by that. It just seems that most people on this board are US or UK. Although the UK is an island, it's more dessert island than desert island.

G'day bloke,an easy assumtion to make,us Aussies are as rare as hens teeth when you take the whole world into considerstion.

Interestingly, I don't consider myself to have much of a faith problem. I've managed to dispose of a good deal of it.

The main faith,the sadest you've lost is the belief in the simplicity of Christ as Lord no matter where you are personally in your life should you dispose of that,i've been Christian for twenty odd years and i know i`ve had struggles in life and questions that dont seem to have answers but thats not Christs fault.

It depends on what you mean by "original". Our wetware seeems capable of synthesizing from preexisting experience, but not so much spontaneously from nothing.

I cant seem to get my head around your expierence of being saved at some point in your life to now say people that Christian's are mentally ill or something,if i make a stretch and put myself in your shoes i could nearly understand if a Church or Pastor freaked you out for one reason or another,but to blame that on Christ?i cant do anything but question your personal relationship with Him to begin with.If you ever want to chat u2u about personal expierences (highs and lows of life)i`d be happy to share mine with you.

Of course you could, which is why you don't live your life as if you really truly honestly believed what you claim you believe. There is no discordance between my professed belief in gravity and my actions, because I honestly, truly believe in gravity. Can you say the same for your professed beliefs in Jesus and your actions? I thought not. You believe you believe, nothing more.

Come on Mr S Ham you`ve assumed you knew where i live now you assume how i live and how i believe simply because you have a problem in these area`s,but we do share a belief in gravity,though if i stopped believing in gravity i dont suspect to fly off the Earth you just take it for granted,if though you climbed up a tall tree with a chain saw to cut branch`s down and lost your footing and found yourself dangling from one arm who crosses your mind first God or gravity?i dont want an answer but its something that people in dire straights mainly consider in extreme cirmcumstances.Its just i think the majority of people know God exists very deep down they just dont admit it to themselves or to others.

I rather you did'nt answering personal questions for me
You put it i "believe that i believe" and if i was allowed to answer in my words i`d say yes i believe that i believe also i know that i believe, the existence of God is just as real as gravity is to you and me,i`ve never warvered in belief in God, i have in myself and in people which can affect that relationship.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I contend that Trash has an entirely different etymological meaning than inaccurate and flawed. I referred to the bible as inaccurate and flawed, another contended I was just saying it is trash. Mostly because they felt it was trash.

As far as I'm aware, one is meant to convey no worth, the others are generally critical but not dismissive.

Agreed

Originally posted by gps777
The main faith,the sadest you've lost is the belief in the simplicity of Christ as Lord no matter where you are personally in your life should you dispose of that

You consider it sad, I consider it joyfull. I feel as though I've been cured of a debilitating illness I didn't even know I had. Freedom is wonderful.

Originally posted by gps777
I cant seem to get my head around your expierence of being saved at some point in your life to now say people that Christian's are mentally ill or something,if i make a stretch and put myself in your shoes i could nearly understand if a Church or Pastor freaked you out for one reason or another,but to blame that on Christ?

To blame it on Christ would first require that I still believe in Christ. I don't. I don't blame Christ for the lies people spread about him anymore than I blame Santa for the lies people spread about him.

Originally posted by gps777
Come on Mr S Ham you`ve assumed you knew where i live

Uh, there was an "if" in "if you live in the US or UK".

Originally posted by gps777
Its just i think the majority of people know God exists very deep down they just dont admit it to themselves or to others.

Interestingly, I think deep down people don't know god exists, but most wish it were true.

Originally posted by gps777
the existence of God is just as real as gravity is to you and me,i`ve never warvered in belief in God, i have in myself and in people which can affect that relationship.

The existence of god isn't as real to you as gravity, or you wouldn't sin. Your behavior tells you what you actually believe regardless of what you think you believe.

Well, this is odd...I find myself agreeing with Spam on two points:

Freedom is wonderful.

Absolutely, 100% completely in agreement with this statement. However, I did have to take it out of context to agree with it whatsoever.

The existence of god isn't as real to you as gravity, or you wouldn't sin. Your behavior tells you what you actually believe regardless of what you think you believe.

I agree with this to a degree, though I don't think spamandham really understands some aspects of Christianity. To the first church in Corinth, Christ was very real to them; they had first person witnesses of Christ's resurrection they could talk to, and they saw the change in the people's lives who believed someone rose from the dead after being publicly executed. (It's interesting to note that 10 of the original 12 disciples were killed for their belief in Christ's resurrection. People may be willing to die for something they falsely believe to be true, but people will not die for something they know is a lie.) Yet in Paul's first letter to them, he clearly points out that the people in Corinth were basing their faith on forgiveness.

It is not belief that causes Christians to maintain the same lifestyle they had before they were saved. Christ died for our forgiveness. We are made whole through him, and the forgiveness He gave us. It is love for Christ that makes us change our ways, not belief. As we grow to love Him more and more, we strive to please him, to not constantly have to say we're sorry. If your wife tells you she'd forgive you if you had an affair, would you go out and have that affair since now, in your marriage, it's lawful? It depends on how much you love and respect your wife. The same is true with God. It is love, or lack thereof, that causes Christians to stumble and even, in cases like yours, fall.

Oh, and check out the stats on BigBoards.com for ATS. Canada is the second largest viewer base, followed by "other".

Originally posted by spamandham
I assume you did not raise yourself on a deserted island. Even if you had no religious upbringing, you have been inundated with god talk your entire life from the society around you. Assuming you grew up in the US or UK, you have also been immersed in Christian culture. There's no way you found him personally. You simply adopted the predominant meme of the society around you.

Originally posted by spamandham
Uh, there was an "if" in "if you live in the US or UK".

If in the UK or US? No if you admit it firstly to be an assumption,likewise its your assumption that all Christians have not woken up to see what you have to discard Christ rather than the other way around.

Interestingly, I think deep down people don't know god exists, but most wish it were true.

Then why do people in general only turn to him when they need Him most? God answers them, then they can only lie to themselves later that he doesn't exist.
In your case i'm unsure if you believed in the first place?sounds like your a product of the same assumptions you place on all other Christians that you just went along with what others have told you and wished you believed and not had a relationship with Christ.


[edit on 8-10-2005 by gps777]

Originally posted by gps777
Then why do people in general only turn to him when they need Him most?

Desparation? Haven't you heard of the 'hail mary pass'? (maybe american football isn't that popular down under). Are we to honestly believe that grasping at anything you can in a desparate situation is somehow proof of the supernatural?

Originally posted by gps777
In your case i'm unsure if you believed in the first place?

..makes you feel much better thinking you are not at the same risk of loss of faith as me, doesn't it?

Originally posted by gps777
...and not had a relationship with Christ.

Relationships have two sides, not one. A one sided relationship is also called "stalking".

Originally posted by spamandham
Desperation? Haven't you heard of the 'hail mary pass'? (maybe american football isn't that popular down under). Are we to honestly believe that grasping at anything you can in a desparate situation is somehow proof of the supernatural?

Yeah desperation could lead someone to God,hurt,lost ,depressed,sick etc
and those forgiven much or healed much love God the most,if someone has`nt been touched in a substantial way i can understand their faith praise and love for God in some cases might not be as strong.
Lol no we dont get American footy over here,so i hav`nt heard that phrase before.Like wise i doubt if you get Aussie Rules Footy,cricket and Rugby in the US, i must add i wish you guys got cricket you`d love it.

..makes you feel much better thinking you are not at the same risk of loss of faith as me, doesn't it?

Your faith?was it there to begin with though to lose?if you were a product of just going along with what others told you without experiencing it,that should give you hope, i honestly do have hope for you,my opinion you`ve had a rough trot your angry at the thought of acting like others i can respect that at least your being honest with yourself in that respect,Christ is there for anyone though not for people that think He`s only imaginary.I'm sure you could agree to that line of thinking even though you don't believe.

Relationships have two sides, not one. A one sided relationship is also called "stalking".

had a good laugh with that,at times it can feel as though God is`nt there which could be for a number of reasons,a test of faith,a block that a person has caused which needs to be rectified,straying or backsliding........
Ever read that poem "Foot prints in the sand"?if yes,thats an example of when one thinks its a one sided relationship but is'nt.

[edit on 9-10-2005 by gps777]

Originally posted by gps777
Your faith?was it there to begin with though to lose?

Although I was raised Christian, when you leave home, you finally decide whether or not to continue with it. I continued with it for another ~20 years. I had all the "personal experiences" the rest of you have, and in my own mind I truly believed I believed. But just like (almost?) everyone else, my actions proved I didn't really believe. So, you're right that I never had faith, but I did believe I had faith. Looking at the actions of people who claim to have a deep relationship with god, it's hard to imagine you could find 144,000 total in the past 2000 years who truly had faith.

If you accept what the Bible says that even the most righteous sin 10 times a day, and if you accept that actions are driven by beliefs, and you further accept that "sin" involves intent, then you conclude that no-one actually believes according to the Bible. If you truly honestly believed, you would never sin. You might still do things considered "sinful", but it wouldn't be sin because there would be no intent.

Originally posted by gps777
Christ is there for anyone though not for people that think He`s only imaginary.I'm sure you could agree to that line of thinking even though you don't believe.

It doesn't seem just to hold people accountable for failure to believe when belief is not a choice (a point I'm sure you'll contend).

Originally posted by gps777
at times it can feel as though God is`nt there which could be for a number of reasons,a test of faith,a block that a person has caused which needs to be rectified,straying or backsliding........

There are any number of possible reasons it seems as though god isn't there. Of course the simplest reason is that he isn't there.

Originally posted by spamandham
..makes you feel much better thinking you are not at the same risk of loss of faith as me, doesn't it?

It's interesting...We are at risk. There is a song by a fellow named Todd Agnew that really speaks to my heart at times, specifically one verse:

Lord, this desert is killing me, and my throat's dry from screaming your name. I want to come home but the sands of time surround me, and the dirt's finally covered my shame.

We all go through spiritual valleys, times when it just feels like He's not there. They start when we begin to turn away from Him. I am just coming out of one that lasted several weeks myself. I've had them last for months. Every one of them began withme turning away from God in some way or another, then condemning myself for it. It turns into a viscous cycle; I slip, I condemn, I am presented with a situation, the thought is I already screwed up, I slip again, I heap more condemnation and guilt on myself for it, etc.

That's what Todd Agnew was talking about in saying the sands of time surround him and the dirt finally covers his shame. You start to feel that He is disappointed with you, that He doesn't love you anymore because of the things you've done, and you turn away even more.

The desert is a hard place to be in. Like the people of Israel, we are faced with these deserts. Like the people of Israel, one of two things will result, initially. He will provide a way out after a short spell. In the case of Israel, He brought them to Canaan, but they did not believe the God who had done so much for them already could get them out of this desert and allow them to conquer the Promised Land. Because they did not believe God was powerful and loving enough to get them out of it, they continued to wander the desert for 40 years. Through those 40 years, though, God was constantly and consistently providing them with manna from Heaven, food by which to continue to survive, and there is always a way out. God did bring the children of Israel out of the desert, and they conquered the promised land and lived there. First, though, he had to refine them. Every day they had to get manna, or they would starve, just as every day we must seek out the Lord, even through the desert we may be going through.

The song continues:

So I throw myself on Your mercy
I throw myself at Your feet
I throw my filth on the grace of One who's beauty is beyond me
And I wait

You surrender your condemnation and guilt that has been heaped on your life to the point where you no longer even feel it to God, and let his grace cover it. You continue to do this, and you wait. You surrender yourself, and try to live as you know He would like you to, washing any dirt as it appears with His grace. It may not, initially, feel like there's a change, but that's why we must wait. What do we wait for?

I wait for Your rain to fall
The waves of Your grace wash over me
I wait for Your rain to fall
Strange how forgiveness comes so easily
When I call Your name
And wait for Your rain

He forgives us the moment we surrender what we have done to Him. He died for us in a most horrible way that we could be forgiven so easily. The battle has already been won, He has already given us Grace and Forgiveness, we need but ask for it. It is our decisions in the desert that determine if we will fall in our faith, or come back to it with renewed vigor. Run to His Throne Of Grace. Run to it and fall at his feet, as a child, and just sob into His robes as you did when you were young and skinned your knee with your parents, and He will hold you. Run to him and you will find favor, grace and delight. Like when we ran to our parents, holding it in until we finally saw them, at which point the tears started to come, they would hold you and comfort you. Yet, you continued to cry as your parent's grace washed over you. Then, the tears would slow down and you'd start to realize you were safe, that it was going to be alright. It is that period, between running and sobbing to feeling that it's alright, that Todd Agnew was talking about when he said, "And I wait."

Originally posted by spamandham

Although I was raised Christian, when you leave home, you finally decide whether or not to continue with it. I continued with it for another ~20 years. I had all the "personal experiences" the rest of you have, and in my own mind I truly believed I believed.

Thank you for sharing that it has allowed me to understand the root of where these problems arise,in a previous post i made some comments on this a little that the individual has to find their way and if brought up in the Church can lead to troubles everyone goes through rebellious times especially males,20 years is a long time my friend you and i both share that,God hasn't finished with you and you with Him this is easy to see,its my opinion you can't see the tree's for the forrest and the blessings you've received because you were raised in the environment,nothing is final until the end,the same freedom you enjoy is there to be had with Christ in the continued renewing and washing,its important to grow supple your snapped less easily,we all at times have become rigid in stature and are easily crumbled because of it when standing with our own earthly mind or strength,But just to restate God hasn't finished with you and you with Him.

If you accept what the Bible says that even the most righteous sin 10 times a day, and if you accept that actions are driven by beliefs, and you further accept that "sin" involves intent, then you conclude that no-one actually believes according to the Bible.

Thats easy to accept when we are all unworthy compared to who Christ is,to say that no-one believes according to the bible i can agree to a degree the bible when read will give an individual similarities to ones self because we are all different individuals that have and believe in the main message,dont be someone else for God, God wants you to be you for God.
Because one says ones a Christian does'nt mean they are without sin its a continuous journey of life and renewal through Christ,if anyone thinks their perfect i'd say they are dillusional.

It doesn't seem just to hold people accountable for failure to believe when belief is not a choice (a point I'm sure you'll contend).

Contended only to the extent that it wasn't Gods intention for us to be faithless sinful etc thats our short comings therefore we are held accountable.

There are any number of possible reasons it seems as though god isn't there. Of course the simplest reason is that he isn't there.

In the words of John Lennon "imagine theres no heaven its easy if you try,thats something only those that don't see God as Love Truth Light Just Merciful Patient etc for varying reasons best known to themselves,try as they might they only wish it to be true,the sad part about it is that they have a distorted view of God and their hearts have grown hard or cold,though a miracle in the eye's of man is natural for God,nothing is final until the end concerning anyone.

Originally posted by junglejake
They start when we begin to turn away from Him. I am just coming out of one that lasted several weeks myself. I've had them last for months. Every one of them began withme turning away from God in some way or another, then condemning myself for it. It turns into a viscous cycle; I slip, I condemn, I am presented with a situation, the thought is I already screwed up, I slip again, I heap more condemnation and guilt on myself for it, etc.

That sounds aweful for you. I don't suffer from that anymore. I had almost forgotten what a mind $*!& it can be.

Originally posted by junglejake
Because they did not believe God was powerful and loving enough to get them out of it, they continued to wander the desert for 40 years.

Interestingly, I wandered in a spiritual desert like you referred to for almost 40 years as well, until I realized the desert had just been an illusion the whole time.

I wonder if The Truman Show was really an allegory for loss of faith. His world seems so real and perfect to him, until he starts to notice small inconsistencies. He finally realizes he's being manipulated, but even then the final journey out of his imaginary world nearly ends him. At the end, he walks away from it not because it was horrible, but because he doesn't want to live a lie manipulated by others. The truth outside, no matter how ugly it may seem, is still better than the lie within.

do you think half the people who say they've found god would have done so if they had not been taken to church from such a young age?

sure if a christian is taken to church as a child, there is still a chance that he/she will turn his/her back on it in later life, but on the whole being at church from such a young age affects your decision in later life. the problem is that children take in everything around them, and accept that as the truth and reality of life. so being in church from a young age, has dramatic affects on children. therefore should children be 'taken' to church? should a child not be able to want or not want to go to church?

often the case for a born again christian is easily explanable. a person has troubles in their life, could be depression, that sparked from a death, divorce etc...so they 'find' the church for comfort.

my question to all you christian folk out there is why in the world do you think 'your' religion is right? for example when saintforgod heard a voice whilst standing infront of a mirror...why would someone suddenly think 'yeah, that's the christian god...it sounds so like him'

now...you could think your religion is right because it's all you've ever known, and you've been brought up as a christian. or it could be because when you were having life troubles the closest church just happened to worship christianity...lucky you, you've just brought a one way ticket to heaven, and got yourself a relationship with jesus/god. what a day...who's gonna be depressed when they've got all that?

This never ends does it.

From the Council of Nicea to Pat Robertsons comments Christians have been ruining it for the rest of us sane folks.

To beleive that your God is the one true God is ARROGANT

You have no proof other than a bias document written by Christians and yet some of you are willing to kill, die and preach in the name of a man who may or may not exist.

Christianity spread easily because the upper classes wanted it that way...If you tell a peasent he fighting in the name of God he will fight for his own place in heaven but if he tell him he is fighting in in order to gain more wealth, land and power for the rich he might not be so willing to slaughter and plunder.

It's ridiculous and obvious that it is social control that has long been exposed but we have millions of ignorant families who perpetuate this mythology to their children and their grand children.

I hate speaking about this all time and it's infuriating because the Christians keep plugging away like the indoctrinated souls they are.

What is more plausable...the world is run by Giant lizards who live underground, the earth is in a testube somewhere in a cosmic science lab or that God Almighty impregnated a Jewish virgin 2000 years ago!!

It's annoying and frustrating that Christians totally beleive that these events happend because they were brought up to beleive the bible is the word of God...IT'S NOT!!:

The bible was written by human beings with their own personal flaws, morals and agendas and the truth of Jesus's existence or none existence has long since been lost and yet people see this golden image of Jesus with hippy hair and blue eyes and that is who they think he is.

THERE WAS NEVER ANY DESCRIPTION OF HIM...IT'S A FANTASY...AND DO YOU REALLY THINK IF HE WAS AN ARABIAN HUNCHBACK WITH A FALSE LEG AND A BAD HAIRCUT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN A POPULAR RELIGIOUS FIGURE AND EVERYONE WOULD BE WEARING THAT IMAGE AROUND THERE NECKS??

It's utter rubbish that we people who know better, who have not closed our minds and have set out to investigate ideas that go beyond the bible have to put up with everyday.

Mad Christian Presidents claiming to hear Gods voice...Mad Evangelical preachers claiming God Speaks to them...Mad Popes claiming to be Gods representative on earth....

You know if you're poor and hear Gods voice you are considered to be insane and medicated but if you are a rich and powerful figure then have been CHOOSEN to do Gods work.

If we have people going around making choices for us based on what voice they hear that day then we are in all kind of trouble, the facade of democracy is one thing but if you combine that government agendas being controlled by voices in people heads then it truely must be the end of the world and rightly so.

It's utter, utter crap...the evidence against it all is tremendous even discounting evolution, natural history and common sense....

It's a system that was spread and utilised in order to keep everyone in their place..to keep the poor sedated so they didn't rock the boat and oust the rich and it's all coming to a head in this modern era because the poor are more eduated then ever and they can see gaping holes in the bull# their families and forfathers have been sold since year zero.

Nothing I just said will make a blind bit of difference to Christians because they have Faith.

Well Faith is not a good enough excuse anymore...Faith allows you to have hope...but it also allows you to be ignorant and that can only lead to stupidity


[edit on 10-10-2005 by BobDylan]

Originally posted by spamandham
That sounds aweful for you. I don't suffer from that anymore. I had almost forgotten what a mind $*!& it can be.

It's actually very cool. When I fall away or start wandering in those valleys these days, people from church reach out, my Christian friends reach out, and I really get to see how much love there is out there for me. Interestingly enough, my non-Christian friends don't see a problem, don't recognize that I'm going through a tough time, and I tend to hide it even more deeply in front of them. Odd, that, one group is there when I'm fun to be around, the other group is just there...

Interestingly, I wandered in a spiritual desert like you referred to for almost 40 years as well, until I realized the desert had just been an illusion the whole time.

Like that song says, "...the sands of time surround me and the dirt's finally covered my shame." I'll bet your Christian friends (if you had established deep fellowship with like minded believers) reached out to you through that desert and you pushed them away. After all, what do they know? They don't have my mind, they don't struggle through the things I struggle with. They're good little Christians, but I've done such bad things. I have fallen into that trap, too. Interestingly, it was that reaction to a friend of mine who is now my best friend where the relationship took the next step as, after I had opened up to him, he unleashed who he was.

I wouldn't have life any other way, besides maybe if the apocalypse came all quick like and Christ reigned here on Earth and everyone followed Him.

Wait...Spam, are you 80 years old?

I take a few days Vacay and discover I'm way behind. Sorry folks, didn't mean for that to happen. For the sake of speed, I think I'll address those directed to me, but will try to pick up on anything else later if I can. Now, where were we? Ah yes...

Originally posted by spamandham
I don't believe it is human nature, or at least not to a great degree. It stems from the belief that we have free will and that sin is a choice, and that some will be judged unworthy by god. If you believe you are saved and others are not, it's difficult not to view them as less important than yourself.

I found my significance decreasing in finding God, not increasing. I thought I was a total bada$$ who could take care of himself, on a pretty good ego ride for quite some time. After realizing my size versus God, I recognize the grain of sand that I am. Still, that grain is important to him, and so are all the other grains of sand, else they would not exist.

Originally posted by spamandham
As a minimum, it creates and us/them mentality, which is a dehumanization process - hence the burning of "witches", executions of heretics, and things like the crusades and inquisition.

Where does Jesus advocate burning of witches, executions, crusades, and torture in an inquisition?

Originally posted by spamandham
No, I'm saying my judgementalism has reduced by an order of magnitude.

Ah, so you're saying you had a problem accepting Matthew 7 while still being a "Christian". Interesting.

Originally posted by spamandham
That doesn't mean I take no action against people who annoy me, it means I take no action against people who are not bothering me and do not threaten me.

*nods* So you've said.

Originally posted by spamandham
That's a problem for you to resolve, not me.

I've heard this excuse a number of times before. The purpose for the question was to think about it in a different way. It seems to me like if you don't want to think about it, up comes this line. I have my own answer to these questions and want your perspective. That's fine though, so long as there's no accusations directed at me for being "mindless".

Originally posted by spamandham
Nevertheless, it is Biblical if you accept that the lineages given are actually true. You can't get an exact number this way since the ages of the fathers at the birth of the children is not provided for everyone, but you can get a good approximation.

Perhaps, but if it's not written, my question is "who knows?"

Originally posted by spamandham
To claim it isn't Biblical requires that you make claims unsupported by the text such as 'father really means ancestor and there an unknown number of unspecified generations in between the specified ones'.

But this strikes at the very heart of the purpose of these lineages, which is to establish ancestry by demonstrating an unbroken chain back to the ancestor in question. Otherwise, you could simply say 'David begat Jesus' and skip all the intermediate ancestors. The whole purpose of these lineages is to prove this ancestry. That doesn't work if you skip generations.

From what I understand, not all lineages were recorded, especially if someone was engaged in illegal activity or shamed the family and such. I don't know how much of that is true, so I'd have to do more homework on it.

Originally posted by spamandham
I'm not an inquirer from their perspective. I wouldn't be going to learn about their church/faith. If they had "heretic night" I could go in good conscience.

It was an open invitation, under the assumption that you're going to be fair and let others ask their questions and will listen for answers. I'm glad I went and did ask a question from here as I said I would, which I'll get to at the end of this post.

Originally posted by spamandham
This is going to sound arrogant, and it probably is, but I already know more about Christianity than most Christians.

Sure. You're a questioner. I'm a questioner too. Us questioners tend to know more answers than non-questioners.

Originally posted by spamandham
I'd be interested in questioning scholarly theologians, but the average teenie bopper hanging around on Christian forums has nothing to offer. They are not there to learn or to teach, but to reinforce one another.

I don't think understanding knows an age really, but know what you're saying.

From Inquirer's Weekend:

Question: What do you tell someone who is concerned about a loved one who went to Hell because they were unable to witness to them?

Answer: I say that person thinks too highly of themselves if they think they're responsible for whether or not that person goes to Heaven or Hell. God makes that decision. Though we are told to spread the gospel, it is not our job to open that person's eyes, only God can do that. We're only there to deliver the message. I'm sure we're all going to be surprised who we see in Heaven. There will be people you never expected there, and those who you thought for sure would be there because they seem like a good Christian to you, may not be. Who is to say for certain that loved one is going to Hell? Not any of us.

My perspective: I didn't write down verbatim what was said, but think I got the essence of it here. Some things I wanted to add is that we as humans think we're better judges that God. Clearly there's a flaw in that reason. If one can accept that God is a better judge, and understands the concept of justice that He created, than we can trust His judgement to be as fair and merciful as it can possibly be. You've pointed out how man has been able to effectly plea to God and obtain mercy as well. I think we have a role to play that has yet to be seen. I don't know if we'll get 'our day in court' with them or not, but don't see why we should rule it out.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
SAINT-
I can't argue against your Biblical rhetoric so I left alot of your post out.

*shrug*

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I got the internet.

No, no I just started thinking. I thought of God as an omnipotent, omniscient, supernatural being and I came to a conclusion. If he really is all these things things are the way he wants them to be, or there is no God. But my logic not working right now, can I borrow yours?

I'd much rather you use His. Mine is flawed.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I believe we are all born relavtively equal(excluding mentaling handicapped people) and that our personalites are shaped by our expeinces throughout our life. I do not blame my parents for my phyisical condition, I only said they greatly affect who we will become.

*nods*. I'll go further to say that a person has one of two way to respond to a condition or environmental influence. They can learn how to work with it and grow mentally and spiritually, or wall themselves in with anger and bitterness thinking the world owes them a favor.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I would have to know your definition of God but if you think he is omniscient, then thats different. Then he knew before he created us that we would Eve would eat the apple, we would sin, Christ would die. How can you be disappointed when he knew what was going to happen? Its like knowing 2+2=4, but when you add them up and get 4 your unhappy.

It was either A.) Demonstrative so that we can learn from God or B.) As an all-powerful God, He can choose not to know the future and go along with us through the timeline. Which it is, I don't know, but those two seem to be the more common schools of thought.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Yeah so instead of giving us logic capable of understandig, he chose to give us this flawed logic?

We put selfish desire and ambition above logic, which causes it to be flawed in the first place. There's no fault of Him for that.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
You are talking to me not the website.

I am now, and am much happier because of it . JJ took the hard road of answering each point. I'll need to go back and study what He says more, but I didn't "go there" because I felt it was pointless since I don't think JJ's answers are going to be satisfactory because of the reasons why people are not pro-God. It ain't 'cause of the Bible as initially claimed. It's because there was some kind of pain that caused rejection or lack of personal proof. That's just from 3 people here who claimed the Book is flawed, when that's not even the issue here.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Which I took to mean if it doesn't happen to me, shut up about it.

Nono, I didn't mean "happen to you" rather "matter to you". There's a lot of things that matter that don't happen to us. But I'm fairly confident that by addressing each point (as Jake is doing) that you'll not feel differently about the Bible. And why should you? It isn't the Bible that is going to make you believe in God.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
it's a bit stupid to try and prove, and even to defend that the bible does or doesn't have any innacuracies. it's pretty much a fact that it does have many. there are a vast amount on that website...sure you can get out of a few with some technicalities, but matter of fact there are still innacuracies. the only problem is that christian see these as not a big deal (but insist on defending them), but athiests usually do think it is..as to them it proves god doesn't exists, or the likelyhood is less.

so you could go on arguing all day about these innacuracies, but you'll never come to a conclusion.

I like how this is the response to JungleJake's work, instead of going line by line and discussing like he is . Hardly seems fair, doesn't it? And people wonder why I don't talk to websites.

Sorry that you put so much time and energy into that to get this kind of response, but if it helps, I'm going through them and learning quite a bit. Thanks.

It's actually very cool. When I fall away or start wandering in those valleys these days, people from church reach out, my Christian friends reach out, and I really get to see how much love there is out there for me. Interestingly enough, my non-Christian friends don't see a problem, don't recognize that I'm going through a tough time, and I tend to hide it even more deeply in front of them. Odd, that, one group is there when I'm fun to be around, the other group is just there...

Apparently not odd Jake. You are a perpetrater of why this takes place. Stated right up above.

Most of the time it is an individual's ability to "read" another that helps many understand the problems of others.

A good example is my wife. Married for over 30 years. She knows there is a problems when I stand there. She senses it. Nothing to do with "religion". A lot to do with understanding the spirit of another.



[edit on 10-10-2005 by madmanacrosswater]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
do you think half the people who say they've found god would have done so if they had not been taken to church from such a young age?

The only person I can represent is my self, and my answer that I was not raised Christian.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
therefore should children be 'taken' to church?

I do not 'take' my child to church. I ask her if she wants to go. Most of the time she says "yes" but it's her deal either way. I hear noise from both sides both condemning that and applauding it. Ultimately though, she's my responsibility until legally allowed to leave home.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
should a child not be able to want or not want to go to church?

Yes, but that's my opinion.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
often the case for a born again christian is easily explanable. a person has troubles in their life, could be depression, that sparked from a death, divorce etc...so they 'find' the church for comfort.

I didn't 'find' the chruch until 15 years after becoming a Christian. I guess it's yet another "does not apply in my case" scenario.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
my question to all you christian folk out there is why in the world do you think 'your' religion is right? for example when saintforgod heard a voice whilst standing infront of a mirror...why would someone suddenly think 'yeah, that's the christian god...it sounds so like him'

Thanks for the trivialization. I appreciate being brought down to a level that seems insignificant. I hope that never happens to you in your life...and if it has, may it never happen again.

As for your question. You know who when you know about who. Have you ever said to someone, "(insert name here), so nice to meet you, I've heard so much about you." The fact they are who they are isn't your wishful thinking. They are who they are and you've been introduced now. In other words, 'we've met'.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
now...you could think your religion is right because it's all you've ever known, and you've been brought up as a christian. or it could be because when you were having life troubles the closest church just happened to worship christianity...lucky you,

Luck is part of a different religion...and didn't have anything to do with it.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
you've just brought a one way ticket to heaven, and got yourself a relationship with jesus/god. what a day...who's gonna be depressed when they've got all that?

At first, no-one that I know of. You do feel great and want to tell everyone. It's only after telling others that you realize there's a problem and that is: many people do not know God personally. If that doesn't set a person's feet back onto the ground, then I think that person needs to understand what love means a little better. I was one of those people and have been taught.

[edit on 10-10-2005 by saint4God]