The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on May, 27 2005 @ 07:58 AM
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Originally posted by Charlie Murphy

Originally posted by thamm1984
I suppose the question is " Why does it bother anyone to post the Ten Commandments, when they are merely guidelines that a certain group of people believe to be important rules to follow. However, looking at the topic in that aspect, it isnt as simple or as easy as it sounds.
The United States has become a country of many cultures, races, ethnic groups all rolled into one gigantic soup of diversity. It is no longer the country of white, male, low-to-middle income class. [I mean no offense by this]. I merely try to put into perpective the fact that there is no "average American" now. We are a mix of so many different immigrated bloodlines, from so many different parts of the world, that there is no way we can possibly have 1 single set of rules or norms for everyone. If we allow one group to advertise [for lack of a better word] their beliefs, then we must allow all who reside in our borders, and are citizens to do the same. Somehow I find that thought somewhat disturbing. What if the KKK wanted to promote and advertise their beliefs on Main Street corner, in downtown Birmingham, Alabama. That would cause immedite conflict with the beliefs of the Afican American majority that reside there. Just because we are entitles to Free Speech, does not neccessarily mean we "should".
If we allow one religious sect to post their beliefs in such a manner, we will offend many other religious sects.
It is my opinion that an individuals religious beliefs are a private matter, not to be advertised on the corner. In fact, if I am not mistaken, is there not a quote/scripture in the Bible that states you should not do the exact thing.
If a person wishes to learn of a certain religions rules or laws, then they are encouraged to visit the establishment where the laws are taught. To be confronted by these rules in an establishment that is paid for by all citizens, then said establishment needs to remain as neutral as possible.


Good post, I agree. A person should be allowed to practice religion in their own homes, or places of worhsip like churches. Why would any religion feel the need to display their "guidelines" publicly? I believe that might be seen as trying to force your beliefes on someone.


Our founding fathers displayed the ten commandments publicly. Christianity was widely practiced back then and no one imagined that it would ever be considered offensive. Back then it was considered offensive to use God's or Jesus's name as a swear word. Now many people consider it offensive if those words are used as anything but a swear.




posted on May, 27 2005 @ 08:35 AM
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Originally posted by Amuk
Still how does this show that she ate it because Adam lied to her?


There are several Talmudic interpretations about the scenario. One is that it is unclear why Eve added to the commandment and that it's a classic illustration of don't add to or take away from G-d's words. Another is that Adam followed the rabbinical principle of "make a hedge for the Torah." This would be his way of telling Eve not even to touch it as to just diminish all desire to even go to it. In this case, Adam's act gave the snake his opening. The snake shows her that you can touch it and not die and she saw that the tree was good. Adam was specifically punished for listening to his wife while she was not hence my previous statement of Adam sinned in knowledge while Eve did not and that's why you see the generational curses passing through the fathers and not the mothers. For the record, original sin is NOT a part of Judaism as it teaches that all are born with a clean slate as opposed to the Christian interpretation that all are born bad due to original sin. The people are born with an inclination to either do good or do bad and sometimes, the bad is nothing more than sexual desires. It's up to the individuals and their free will.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by riley
I was referring to the Catholic church.. it's meant to follow 'his' word [which is was doing with those vows] and has had a huge influence on western culture and attitudes.


*shrugs* I don't have the background to talk about Catholic doctrine. I don't care about past influences, attitudes and culture. What matters is here and now.

What matters is historically the 'power of chistianity' as been a force for both good and evil [sexism, slavery, crusades, inquisitions etc. etc.].. power corrupts.. and when there is only a handful of men at the head of religious organisations [especially with political connections].. it requires more faith in humanity than god that they'll do the 'right thing' as they can always 'misinterprit' the bible [or other doctrine] to do the wrong.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 10:10 AM
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Ok. That explains it there.
Thank you.


You're welcome! I'm definitely not a Christian though I was raised one.


As for Eve being decieved by satan. That is correct.


I want to add that being deceived by Satan is a Christian interpretation.


Theory has it that this was the exact action of satans fall as well.


This is also a Christian interpretation as in the OT, there is no fall of "Satan" as the only "Satan" is HaSatan who is an angel of G-d and does G-d's will, such as tempting Job.


In getting Eve and Adam to follow his words, he gained the worship he wanted from those two new creatures ...the humans...that were made to worship God. The rebellion was full.


Again, I can't agree as there is nothing to attribute the serpent to HaSatan and HaSatan does not need people to worship him. The two were made G-dlike and had dominion over the earth. That wasn't good enough. They wanted to be more like G-d hence their expulsion before they could eat from the tree of life and become immortal. "And the Lord G-d said, "Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and bad, what if he should stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever!' So the Lord G-d banished him from the garden of Eden." Then G-d had the tree protected by cherubim and fiery swords.


If you read the bible you will find that satan often uses women to bring down men.


Again, I can't agree with the Christian interpretation of HaSatan.


Remember Balaam and his donkey?


Sure I do and did you notice the donkey is a female?


He couldnt curse Israel,


He could "only repeat faithfully what the Lord" put in his mouth.


so they sent some hotty women to lead the men astray.


Chapter 25 is a continuation of 22.1 which had the story of Balaam inserted in between. The women weren't sent to the men. Verse 1 says, "While Israel was staying at #tim, the people profaned themselves...." These women were local.


Guys are fools for women the Israelites even worshiped the idols of those women.


Who made the men worship the golden calf at Sinai? There were no women present. This is also why several of the 613 laws for Jews is to not intermarry.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 10:47 AM
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I haven't read this entire thread, or even the entire first page. However, I would like to chime in on one thing regarding christianity. The true power of the message will NEVER be felt by the entire world if we continue to bicker between each other about who practices the right tenets.


Why do you feel that the entire world needs to "feel" the message? I can tell you that I am very secure in my relationship with G-d and I do NOT have a need to "feel" the Christian message. Also, the Christian denominations will continue to bicker until there can be some consistency on all parts about who is a Christian. There are many who do not see Catholics as Christians, Mormons as Christians, JWs as Christians, etc.


A Christian is a Christian is a Christian; now lets go save the world, and ourselves. Otherwise, we are just gonna watch the world meet its demise!





posted on May, 27 2005 @ 11:09 AM
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Our founding fathers displayed the ten commandments publicly.


Proof please.


Christianity was widely practiced back then and no one imagined that it would ever be considered offensive.


The founding fathers were deists.

Thomas Jefferson:
I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

John Adams:
Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?

The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

Thomas Paine:
I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.

Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance.

The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty.

James Madison:
What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 11:30 AM
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Here is the info to go along with my last post about what happened between satan and man in the Garden of Eden

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


Here you see that Lucifer, his name before the fall, was perfect. One thing we never see is his creation. So we have to assume he was created first and saw the creation of man.
It was after that , that pride overcame him. He was a great angel. He wanted to be worshiped like God.

Here is the rest of the backgrounded needed on satan

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430
I have studied. Not only was I raised in a devout Southern Baptist home where we had to read the Bible cover to cover over and over again, but I also went to a Methodist college and seminary.


These lines are so interesting to me!!

I was raised in religion and I had to rely upon the Bible. But I was clearly taught: don't just read and study the Bible, but believe in it and don't ever question its credibility!

Unfortunately, I have always seen that today's Christianity is more like a law of the outside, to cover the inside soul of a person. Very few ppl are capable to clean their soul. Even if they do that, the peer-pressure is present in church and seminars. But these are among the unwritten laws: never talk about it!



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430

Our founding fathers displayed the ten commandments publicly.


Proof please.


My appologies, I got my dates mixed up. There is a statue of Moses with the 10 commandments in the rotunda of the Library of Congress. Although the Library of Congress was established by an act of Congress in 1800 when President John Adams signed a bill providing for the transfer of the seat of government from Philadelphia to the new capital city of Washington, the actual first building was not compleated until 1938. I havenot been able to find any info on the statue itself.



Christianity was widely practiced back then and no one imagined that it would ever be considered offensive.


The founding fathers were deists.

Thomas Jefferson:
I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

John Adams:
Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?

The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

Thomas Paine:
I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.

Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance.

The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty.

James Madison:
What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.


en.thinkexist.com...

John Adams, our second president, said, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government or any other."

mightyrighty.com...
James Madison, fourth president of the United States and referred to as the "Father of the Constitution," stated, "The belief in a God All Powerful, wise and good, is essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man."

Quoting dead men actually proves nothing, as they are not around to defend the context of their quotes.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 01:43 PM
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Here is the info to go along with my last post about what happened between satan and man in the Garden of Eden


Your information is a Christian interpretation of Jewish text. Satan was not identified as being in the garden. Furthermore, there is no concept of "devil" in Judaism. The word "Satan" means challenger and Ha added before mean the. Satan is the challenger. He is the angel of challenges for men. He does the will of G-d and makes making the right choice a challenge so that when choosing right and wrong, the choice is meaningful.

The entire chapter in Isaiah is about Israel's oppressor which is NOT about HaSatan. There are several rabbinical teachings. One is that it's about the Assyrian king. Two is that it's predicting the death of the Babylonian ruler. And another is that it's about Ishtar, one of the Babylonian deities and was the god of the morning star.

Verse 4, "you shall recite this song of scorn over the king of Babylon: How is the taskmaster vanished, How is oppression ended." The next few verses go on to show the happiness at the death of the king.

To make this clear, the translation needs to be according to Hebrew.


Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

How are you fallen from heaven, O Shining One, son of Dawn! How are you felled to earth,O vanquisher of nations!


The king is vainly wanting to be a G-d and Isaiah calls him the Shining One, son of Dawn. Dawn is NOT meant to be morning but referring to a character in a Canaanite text. Dawn is described in the myth as the son of the high god El. In Greek mythology, the name is close to Phaethon son of Eos (Radiant One, son of Dawn). Phaethon is a young god that was thrown down to earth by Zeus. Anyhow, Isaiah sort of mixes the characters together. Rabbinic teachings also include the morning star as Venus (the planet, not goddess). Other references to Canaanite myths in which a god is thrown from Heaven is in Ez chapter 28, Ps. 82, and possibly Gen 6.1-4.


Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Once you thought in your heart, "I will climb to the sky; Higher than the stars of G-d I will set my throne. I will sit in the mount of assembly, On the summit of Zaphon:



Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

I will mount the back of a cloud -- I will match the Most High.



Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Instead you are brought down to Sheol, To the bottom of the Pit."


Notice, Sheol is NOT hell as there is no concept of hell in Judaism either.


Here you see that Lucifer, his name before the fall, was perfect.


HaSatan is not named Lucifer and there was no fall. Again it's a Christian interpretation of Jewish text.


One thing we never see is his creation. So we have to assume he was created first and saw the creation of man.
It was after that , that pride overcame him. He was a great angel. He wanted to be worshiped like God.


Just because we don't see his creation means that he's the devil? I'm not following the creation logic. Pride never overcame him because angels do not have freewill. Pride is a human characteristic. Notice in the book of Job that if HaSatan had freewill, he would not have had to keep coming back to G-d and asking for permission of things that he wanted to do in order to tempt Job. Someone who is a G-d and is as evil as the Christians portray him to be certainly would not have thought to stop and ask, right?


Here is the rest of the backgrounded needed on satan


The background is flawed as I have been showing. Do you expect a Muslim to be able to tell you what the New Testament is referring to in certain passages? What about a Hindu? The Tanakh as I will refer to it as I don't see there being a new and old covenant is a Jewish text. Therefore, I do not expect you to be well versed in the meanings.


Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.


This entire passage is about the Tyrian king's downfall. Did you forget to read verse 12 that says, "O mortal, intone a dirge over the king of Tyre and say to him: Thus said the Lord G-d: You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and flawless in beauty."

Now here is some further information for you on the true background and nature of HaSatan.

A. There is no devil in Judaism.
B. There is no embodiment of evil that tempts us.
C. As I stated earlier, HaSatan is the challenger or adversary. Num 22.22 "But G-d was incensed at his going; so an angel of the Lord placed himself in his was as an adversary." This was HaSatan. The angel of challenges. Num 22.32 "The angel of the Lord said to him, "Why have you beaten your ass these three times? It is I who came out as an adversary, for the errand is obnoxious to me." This is HaSatan. The angel of challenges. I Sam 29.4 "...."Send the man back; let him go back to the place you assigned him. He shall not march down with us to the battle, or else he may become our adversary in battle." Translated as HaSatan.
D. As shown earlier that HaSatan was not an opponent to G-d, "He further showed me Joshua, the high priest, standing before the angel of the Lord, and the Accuser standing at his right to accuse him." Zech 3.1 This shows HaSatan as a more definite adversary.

Humans are born with a yetzer hara and a yetzer hatov...the bad and good impulse that I spoke of earlier. The impulse to do good or bad lies within. G-d didn't need to create anything to tempt us. He gave us freewill and we have the ability to use that. G-d has no rival. All angels are obedient to him. That's more than we humans can say!



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 01:54 PM
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I was raised in religion and I had to rely upon the Bible. But I was clearly taught: don't just read and study the Bible, but believe in it and don't ever question its credibility!


I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. I remember one time when I was little...I was sitting at church and the preacher did the normal pick and choose a scripture to back up this one that backs up that one. My mom and I had just studied this one section and I whispered to her that he was wrong. She shushed me. That was pretty much the norm. It was almost like I wasn't allowed to think outside of this tiny little box that everything including G-d had been placed in. I was taught that every other religion in the world is wrong. Some denominations of Christianity were wrong. Questioning anything was wrong. I could live my life on blind faith but I didn't realize that for a very long time. I started going to an Episcopal church. I was fine there until people started introducing themselves and attaching their sexuality. I don't care what a person's orientation in. I always thought of church as a place that is pure and that sex shouldn't be a part of it. If G-d has a problem with what an individual is doing, then he would take it up with them when and if the time comes. But I moved on. I went to a Methodist college because I wanted to stay within the realm of what I had been taught. It was comfortable. I transferred to a state university after the first two years because I had moved and hated it. Graduate school came along and I decided to pursue religion. I think that part of me was seeking was actually was right. I am the family heretic and frankly that doesn't bother me.


Unfortunately, I have always seen that today's Christianity is more like a law of the outside, to cover the inside soul of a person. Very few ppl are capable to clean their soul. Even if they do that, the peer-pressure is present in church and seminars. But these are among the unwritten laws: never talk about it!


And there is so much variation within Christianity! My family and friends are all Southern Baptists. They are very much the definition of fundamentalist. My best friend is the worst one of all but I love her to death. She is on the save the world mission and preach Jesus to everyone. For a while there, she was really driving me crazy and I had to learn how to nicely nip the conversation. I don't want to hurt her feelings but I want her to learn how to communicate about it. Don't fall into the ol' "It's my way or the hellway." I think that talking about one's faith or lack thereof will do one of two things...either make you question your faith and you'll be more firm in your beliefs or you'll find the path that is truly the right one for you. Christianity is right for her. It is right for my family. It is not however right for me. My ex made sure to tell me that I better allow my children the choice (he's Methodist). I assured him that I plan to teach them about all religions because I don't want them to feel boxed in.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:01 PM
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I havenot been able to find any info on the statue itself.


The statue was made by Charles Niehaus in 1897 and was chosen by Ainsworth Rand Spofford, the librarian.


Quoting dead men actually proves nothing, as they are not around to defend the context of their quotes.


My comments were in reference to the founding fathers displaying the Ten Commandments and Christianity being widely practiced. I commented back that they were deists and the comments I chose reflected such.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430
I know EXACTLY what you're talking about.

I remember one time when I was little...I was sitting at church and the preacher did the normal pick and choose a scripture to back up this one that backs up that one. My mom and I had just studied this one section and I whispered to her that he was wrong. She shushed me. That was pretty much the norm. It was almost like I wasn't allowed to think outside of this tiny little box that everything including G-d had been placed in. I was taught that every other religion in the world is wrong. Some denominations of Christianity were wrong. Questioning anything was wrong. I could live my life on blind faith but I didn't realize that for a very long time.


Yes, some people are instructed by their parents what to do or what not to do. Especially if they are at a holy place like church, seminars , etc.

Personally, I did not ever comment what a priest said or did not say. But during any religious ceremony, or right after that I did two things: Watched the priest AND the people or groups of people near me. You'd never know, amazing things could be read from the face of a person being confronted with his past one week of his life.

Funny, that regular believers actually learn to hide their emotions in Church, but right after they leave the gatestep, their behavour may change dramatically. Significant amount of ppl act way differently in church than in real life, that's the reason why I have my comment.

I remember that the Priest instructed the believers (nearly every Sunday) not to be hostile to each other before and after the ceremony, because it is getting uncomfortable.

But conclusively, a person can learn a lot in the church.


Also, the Christian denominations will continue to bicker until there can be some consistency on all parts about who is a Christian. There are many who do not see Catholics as Christians, Mormons as Christians, JWs as Christians, etc.


People must respect all other religions and they are never supposed to question why others believe in whatever they believe. It is their right. --- I'm not sure where to find this in the Bible, but I learnt it quite well.



[edit on 27-5-2005 by Vertu]



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:44 PM
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shonet,

You can twist it any way you want. It all lines of with the rest of the truth that is shown through Jesus Christ. The bible says it somewhere, and I dont know how God does it, but this thread is proof...
The eyes of the nonbeliever are closed. They cannot see the truth. If you could see the 'king' of babylon, then you would also know who the 'king' of Jerusalem is.


God bless you in the name of His son, Jesus Christ.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 03:04 PM
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You can twist it any way you want.


Twist? You being a Christian are telling me, a Jew what my scriptures mean? It is the fundamentalist Christians that have twisted the scriptures and taken G-d from being a loving and just G-d to one that whines and throws tantrums because someone doesn't want to believe in the NT. My G-d doesn't cry, nor does he have a penis. Now that's a twist! Considering G-d said he is not man. The idea behind the fundamentalist G-d is one that is almost Nazi like. Let's say all are wiped out right now. People are put in the judgment line where they will be separated like at the concentration camps. Some will be ushered off immediately to their death (hell) and some will go to work (purgatory). The others are safe and sound because they happen to be the ideal of the deity (fundies). Pathetic really. I don't see how people can go through life on a daily basis living to die. The ignorance that runs rampant through fundamentalism is scary. They have no glory here on earth but they have the promise of heaven. And don't forget, I'm including my family and friends in this group too and they know how I feel. I hope that one day you can break the mold. It's hard to do. I know from experience. Lucky for me, I have Jewish blood from my mother's side.


It all lines of with the rest of the truth that is shown through Jesus Christ.


Says you. Not me.


The bible says it somewhere, and I dont know how God does it, but this thread is proof...
The eyes of the nonbeliever are closed. They cannot see the truth. If you could see the 'king' of babylon, then you would also know who the 'king' of Jerusalem is.


I'm not a nonbeliever. I believe in G-d...a single, G-d who does not have manifestations. I'm taken care of.


God bless you in the name of His son, Jesus Christ.


No thanks. But G-d did say to bless Israel so I'll take the first part of that so that you can be blessed in return!



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 03:24 PM
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Twist? You being a Christian are telling me, a Jew what my scriptures mean?


See, here is where you went wrong.
Jesus Christ came for you. You rejected Him. One day Israel will realize it....after the time of the gentiles is filled. On that day, your eyes will be opened...

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

If you make it to that point, then I look forward to seeing you in heaven and we can talk again. If you do not....



BUt until then... please understand that I cannot see you as anything but blind.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 03:42 PM
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See, here is where you went wrong.


First things first, I didn't go wrong anywhere. The Tanakh says one thing and you believe another.


Jesus Christ came for you.


Wrong again. There is no proof that he came. No Talmud writers or sages ever wrote of him during his period. If he were the messiah, they would know as it's a requirement from G-d/


You rejected Him.


I still do.


One day Israel will realize it....after the time of the gentiles is filled. On that day, your eyes will be opened...


Wrong. There is no second coming in the Tanakh. Get over it. There is a one time shot. Jesus filled none of it. Below I will post from one of my other posts that shows the requirements. Look it up for yourself.


Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.


Not about Jesus but the general who will lead Israel in the final war of the world.


If you make it to that point, then I look forward to seeing you in heaven and we can talk again. If you do not....


I could care less if there is a heaven. My life isn't about death.


BUt until then... please understand that I cannot see you as anything but blind.


See me as whatever you want but I'll show below that it's not me that's blind.

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PREREQUISITES TO RECOGNIZE THE MESSIAH
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INTRODUCTION

The Bible is transparent on the subject of the role of the messiah. It should be noted that, although there are many sections throughout the Jewish scriptures that vividly describe how the world will be forever transformed with the arrival of the messiah, very few are about the messiah personally. The vast quantity of messianic scripture in Tanakh depicts the state of perfection that the world will achieve at the end of days. It is quite clear from the vantage point of Tanakh that the significance of the messiah himself pales in comparison to the utopian age that his arrival will usher in.

The reason Judaism does not accept the Christian messiah is because Jesus fulfilled none of the messianic prophecies clearly foretold in the Jewish scriptures. The following is an overview of the most distinct messianic prophecies as outlined in the Jewish scriptures -- which both Christians and Jews agree are messianic:

World Peace

"And he [Messiah] shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." -- Isaiah 2:4

"He [Messiah] will destroy death forever." -- Isaiah 25:8

"Then the inhabitants of the cities of Israel will go out and make fire and feed them with the weapons -- shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, clubs and spears; they shall use them as fuel for seven years." -- Ezekiel 39:9

Universal Knowledge of G-d

"For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. -- Isaiah 11:9

"And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or shall one teach his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know Me, from their smallest to their greatest," says the Lord" -- Jeremiah 31:33

"All who survive of all those nations that came up against Jerusalem shall make a pilgrimage year by year to bow low to the King Lord of Hosts and to observe the feasts." -- Zechariah 14:16

"And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one." -- Zechariah 14:9

"Thus said the Lord of Hosts: In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold -- they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you."
-- Zachariah 8.23

Building of the Third Temple

"...and I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My temple also shall be with them. Yes, I will be their G-d and they shall be My people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore. -- Ezekiel 37:26-28 (See also Ezekiel 40-48; Isaiah 33:20)

Death Will Cease

"He will swallow up death forever...." -- Isaiah 25:8

Resurrection of the Dead

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust, for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." -- Isaiah 26:19

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." -- Daniel 12:2

"Therefore, prophesy and say to them, "So says the Lord G-d: Lo! I open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves as My people, and bring you home to the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and lead you up out of your graves as My people."
-- Ezekiel 37:12-13

Ingathering of Israel

"I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, ''Give up,'' and to the south, "Keep not back, bring My sons from far, and My daughter from the ends of the earth. -- Isaiah 43:5-6. (See also Jeremiah 16:15; 23:3; Isaiah 11:12; Zechariah 10:6; Ezekiel 37:21-22)

(And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. -- Isaiah 11:12

But, As the L-rd lives, who brought the people of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands where he had driven them; and I will bring them back to their land that I gave to their fathers. -- Jeremiah 16:15

And I will gather the remnant of my flock from all countries where I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. -- Jeremiah 23:3

21. And say to them, Thus says the Lord G-d: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from among the nations, where they have gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land;
22. And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, nor shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; -- Ezekiel 37: 21-22)

The Nations Will Help the Jews Materially

"Then you shall see and be radiant, and your heart shall fear and expand; because the abundance of the sea shall be overturned upon you, the wealth of the nations shall come to you." -- Isaiah 60:5

"Foreigners shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to you. Men shall bring you the wealth of the nations with their kings led in procession. For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste." -- Isaiah 60:10--12

"But you shall be called “priests of the L-rd,” men shall say of you, “ministers of our G-d;” you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their riches you shall glory." -- Isaiah 61:6

Eternal Joy and Gladness Will Characterize the Jewish Nation

"And the redeemed of the L-rd shall return, and come to Zion in song; everlasting joy shall be upon their head; they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee. -- Isaiah 51:11

The Jews Will Be Sought For Spiritual Guidance

Thus says the L--rd of hosts: “In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations shall take hold and seize the robe of a Jew, saying: `Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.' ” -- Zechariah 8:23

All Weapons Of War Will Be Destroyed

"Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go forth and set fire to the weapons and burn them, shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, handspikes and spears, and they will make fires of them for seven years...."
-- Ezekiel 39:9

The Enemy Dead Will Be Buried

For seven months the House of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. -- Ezekiel 39:12

The Egyptian River Will Run Dry

"And the L-rd will utterly destroy the tongue of the sea of Egypt and wave His hand over the river with His scorching wind, and smite it into seven channels, and make men cross dryshod." -- Isaiah 11:15

Trees Will Yield New Fruit Monthly in Israel

And on both sides of the bank of the stream, all trees for food will grow; their leaves will not wither nor will their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because their waters flow from the Sanctuary; their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine. -- Ezekiel 47:12

Each Tribe of Israel Will Receive It's Inheritance

"Thus says the L-rd, G-d: “These are the boundaries by which you shall divide the land for inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions. And you shall divide equally that which I swore to give your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance.” -- Ezekiel 47:13--14

All Warfare Will Cease

"And He shall judge among the nations and decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." -- Isaiah 2:4

CONCLUSION

It is interesting to note that these Messianic prophecies foretell the nations' subjugation to Israel. If Jesus was really the Messiah and the Jews persecuted and killed him, why is G-d going to reward them so greatly? Partly for not yielding to centuries of Christian persecution.

Moreover, when looking back at all of these prophecies, we can clearly see Jesus is not the Messiah. Jesus fell short of fulfilling any of the major messianic prophecies; he was never anointed as King, he never ruled Israel, and the world was certainly not perfected in his time. In addition, he was not preceded by the return of the prophet Elijah. To suggest Jesus is the Jewish Messiah is, in effect, saying that G-d was lying to the Jewish people when he promised a Messiah from the house of David who would fulfill all of the prophecies.

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posted on May, 27 2005 @ 04:10 PM
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Im not sure what you thought you would accomplish.


I have read and understand Gods word. Did you think by showing me your own version that I would change from accepting my bible?

You already have your answers. If you want me to teach you the truth of the scriptures, I will be at your service. But surely you see the vanity in throwing out your version to me.
If you dont, maybe this will help.

I have prayed to, and gotten answers from God in the name of Jesus Christ.
God is moving in my life, blessing, answering prayer in a most obvious manner. I have a Father son relationship with God.
He is my God, I am His son.

He has fed me
He has healed me
He has blessed me
He has chastened me
He has Loved me even when I rejected Him.

I am beyond your reach. I am beyond anyone elses reach. If your heart changes, you let me know and I will do what I cant to help.

Right now tho...you are like a teen. You think you know everything. When you get more mature you find out that you dont. Then God will be waiting.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 04:22 PM
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I was wondering about your signature about evolution. Do you not think that evolution and creationism work hand in hand?



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 06:21 PM
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Im not sure what you thought you would accomplish.


I'm trying to accomplish nothing.


I have read and understand Gods word.


You do NOT have an understanding of the Jewish texts from the Jewish perspective. Sadly, it's only the fundamentalists that seem to not understand this. I have met many Catholics, Methodists, etc who wonder why was the order rearranged, why was there a chapter to Malachi added, etc. The fundies just think that it's the way it's supposed to be. Words in front of Psalms were removed telling who they were for or about. Luckily in recent times, translators have added those back in.


Did you think by showing me your own version that I would change from accepting my bible?


My version? Let's say a Muslim was talking to you about the scripture where Paul talks about it being okay to lie for the sake of the church. Surely you don't believe that is what Paul truly meant even though it says it. But he just knows that Paul did mean that. Surely you as a Christian should know what your scripture means. Well me as a Jew knows what my scripture means. To you, it's proof text needed to back up the assumption that Jesus was meant to be. Although, Jesus is not mentioned anywhere in the Tanakh. I have also showed what the Bible actually says about the mosiach. Jesus was not it. I hate to break it to you. Now IMO, IF Jesus lived, then I believe he was a prophet. He was sent like many others to draw people closer to G-d. There is not a one size fits all as we are all individuals. Religion itself is man made. I believe that some people need more than others. I know some atheists who live extremely moral lives and I see them as being people who need less. Some people need the Bible. Some people don't. I don't need religion. I don't need the Bible. Sadly, most of the fundies worship the Bible instead of G-d.


You already have your answers. If you want me to teach you the truth of the scriptures, I will be at your service. But surely you see the vanity in throwing out your version to me.


There is no my version and your version unless we're calling the Tanakh my version and the NT your version. Unlike Christians, Jews do not preach, teach, proselytize, etc. If you want to know something, ask and I will tell. But never will I do anything to try and sway you.


If you dont, maybe this will help.

I have prayed to, and gotten answers from God in the name of Jesus Christ.
God is moving in my life, blessing, answering prayer in a most obvious manner. I have a Father son relationship with God.
He is my God, I am His son.

He has fed me
He has healed me
He has blessed me
He has chastened me
He has Loved me even when I rejected Him.


That's fabulous for you. I'm glad that you found your path. Now you should be respectful that others have found theirs as well.


I am beyond your reach. I am beyond anyone elses reach. If your heart changes, you let me know and I will do what I cant to help.


I'm not interested in reaching you. I'm interested in posting the truth that has been twisted. My heart doesn't need to change. I'm right with G-d and I don't need the help of you or anyone else. Religion should be the personal establishment of relationship with G-d or whatever one so chooses to call him. No one should need help with that.


Right now tho...you are like a teen. You think you know everything. When you get more mature you find out that you dont. Then God will be waiting.


I'm not a teen. I do know the Tanakh and I've been on both sides of the fence. As I have matured, I realized that G-d is different than I thought he was. G-d isn't a toddler waiting to damn everyone to hell. G-d said everything is good and I don't believe that G-d is a liar. I found G-d after many years searching and it fits. I learned that he's not mean, bitter, angry, and childish. I don't buy into the notion that G-d is sitting there watching everyone on a big screen. G-d created all and is hands off. So that means that everyday, I experience G-d. I see him, hear him, smell him, etc. Do I care if there is an afterlife? Not at all. Because I do my part living on a daily basis to help usher in the messianic era. Do I care if there is one? No. It makes no difference to me. Can you say the same? No because your promises come in death and not in life. I'm not sure who said it but there is a quote about it's easier being born again than growing up. It's truth. I've been there. I was "born again" and then I grew up. Sadly for me, I didn't get to grow up Jewish even though I have Jewish roots. My grandmother assimilated through no choice of her own. Then my mother ended up Baptist and then I ended up being raised as such. That's the reason why G-d said not to intermarry because people end up worshipping idols. I learned the hard way and now each and every single day, I wake up feeling more blessed than the day before. The very day that I chose to finalize my commitment, I felt a bajillion pounds lighter. Like G-d said, everything is good.





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