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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Needless to say, I have few friends, since many people actually like draping themselves in fabricated realities of their own misconceived notions of self.


Well, add me to your list of friends, but don't be surprised if you get that candid feedback right at ya
. Since we're having a heart-to-head moment, I guess the point that I'm trying to illuminate (no, not illumanti ya'll so stop drooling
) is that your mannerisms speak so loudly that I can't hear what you're saying. 'Course, I'm one of those "idiot Christians" who was pursuing a career as an "idiot scientist" so I guess I'm twice the fool. Well, once the idiot + twice the idiot = still an idiot, so I guess it makes no difference really to what extreme, neither are seriously considered.

I think you're an introspectively deep-thinking person and can't help but to respect that as well as some valid points you've made. Again though, hard to hear that when someone is calling names and slapping labels. I know it wasn't meant personally, but my group to whom I belong by belief was called such so that includes me. I don't think you are an idiot, but then again, what could I possibly know? I'm an idiot
.




posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 09:25 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Well, add me to your list of friends, but don't be surprised if you get that candid feedback right at ya
.


I would both defend and break down your beliefs with every once of my spirit. I would stand with you when you do not expect it, and quarrel then when you expect me to stand so that both might grow.

I would ask only the same from others... still, though, many hold such stong beliefs that they cannot argue both sides of a thing.

In any case, thank you.



Since we're having a heart-to-head moment, I guess the point that I'm trying to illuminate (no, not illumanti ya'll so stop drooling
) is that your mannerisms speak so loudly that I can't hear what you're saying.


I am uncertain if I fathom what you mean, could you elaborate?



'Course, I'm one of those "idiot Christians" who was pursuing a career as an "idiot scientist" so I guess I'm twice the fool. Well, once the idiot + twice the idiot = still an idiot, so I guess it makes no difference really to what extreme, neither are seriously considered.


I did not mean the statement in a universal sense, but more a general and inspecific one. I hold exception in every statement I make, though it isn't stated.

Aside from that, I am nothing but a fool who knows nothing of what he speaks. This is the only thing I know. I only find it puzzling that others seem to know so much less. ;-)

So you are in good company, aboard a ship of fools. :-)



I think you're an introspectively deep-thinking person and can't help but to respect that as well as some valid points you've made. Again though, hard to hear that when someone is calling names and slapping labels.


Again, I have had many good and lenthy conversations with some Christians. It isn't they that I speak of, but those who shame "His" name.



I know it wasn't meant personally, but my group to whom I belong by belief was called such so that includes me. I don't think you are an idiot, but then again, what could I possibly know? I'm an idiot
.


Yes, but I wasn't calling your particular faith idiotic. Perhaps i should rephrase; there are a greater majority of childish and self-centered pseudo-christians, likewise there is a greater majority of scientists who ignore scientific practice when it suits them better.

For instance, LACKING evidence of a thing does not mean casual dismissal, nor does lacking an ability to obtain that evidence mean the simplest conclusion.

Frankly, I blame Occam.



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 10:51 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
So faith comes naturally for you? So in order to deny faith, you have to deny that inherent nature. I'm gonna sit and think on that for a while.


That's right. Believe it or not I'm human like everyone else with all the quirks and frailties of humanity. Are you suggesting we should embrace our inherent nature (you can read that as 'sin nature')? A few of us might survive such a paradigm shift I suppose.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
I agree that you shouldn't be a blind follower. I'm not, and understand why we need our proof.


we agree on a lot, just not on the topic of 'god existing'.



I think I see the problem. Just reading the Bible doesn't prove divinity. There's no 'magic spell' on the Book to make someone believe in God. God is alive now, not ink in a Book. Why did your friend believe?


because to believe in god from reading the bible, you have to believe that god gave those commandments to moses, turned the stick in to a snake, flooded the world for 40 days and 40 nights, made adam and eve, if you can't believe in that, then why believe in the god that supposedly inspired this book.

my friend has been a christian since she was about 5. but, she did tell me even if the bible was somehow proven false that she'd still believe because she knows there is still a god (this comes back to being possessed, speaking in tongues, and hearing him in prayer etc).



Perhaps. So you plan to look for God only when you're in trouble?


often people do go to god when 'they' want him in their life, because of some sort of problem they're having. i wouldn't be one of those people. i think what i was saying is that 'would i benefit that much having god in my life', my own personal thoughts are no.



Well, that's probably because...


the answer you want is 'because i'm looking in the wrong places'. but, the answer i'm giving is because i probably haven't really looked at all, most likely because i don't want to, or i have no need to.



If you have no desire to search, then naturally one cannot find. My question is, would you like to find God?


i guess the answer right now would be 'no'. maybe some of us just aren't meant to believe, or be religious and some people are. i know people have a problem whenever someone says religion can be affected by your genes and the environment you're brought up in, but i'm certain it can. if you're born in to a christian family, with a long history of religion, gone to church from the age of 5, told every story in the bible is the gospel truth, told evolution is the work of the devil...then you are 'more' likely to become a christian yourself, than say a person who has never read the bible, been to church or heard of jesus.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
As such, I can't say I don't feel older (Oi vey) or wiser (Damn whipper snappers!) than a lot of people. This is generally where I come into problems. See, many people want those who are older/wiser to play down that wisdom because they dislike knowing someone may know more than they do.


first of all, how do you even measure the 'wiseness' of a person. i'm sure you know a lot than me on certain subjects, but i also know that i know a lot more than you on other subjects. that's like saying 'newton, was wiser than einstein'...it holds almost no truth, and cannot be supported either, just as your assumption that you were wiser than me. in fact your statement was a very unwise one to make



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 02:40 AM
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Shaunybaby: Wisdom is not Knowledge. You certainly should know things I do not, we probably travel in different circles... but knowing isn't related to wisdom directly. A tribal leader of bushmen doesn't know anything about the common world, or at least very little... but he might be wise to several things. Wisdom isn't directly related to how much you know or knowing more than another.

Wisdom is... more in how one behaves with the limited knowledge you have. Methinks it is hard to explain, especially when I am as tired as I currently am. If it strikes me how to better explain, I'll elaborate.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 02:47 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
For example?


I know I have discussed contradictions with you before, but here are some incosistancies:
www.infidels.org...
I find the most repeated incosistency, is god. For I think that if he was omniscient, all-powerful he should remain consistent in how he acts, but he changes in attitude, what he tells people. God is supposedly perfect, yet he shows many flaws, I guess thats where we get them



Originally posted by saint4God
How did it survive?

I dont understand? That was TheCrystalSword's comment not mine, I was responding to his post.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 03:33 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
First, why would scientists suddenly come to this conclusion without insurmountable evidence? If ALL the scientists in the world accepted it, there would have to be some significant evidence that would be hard to ignore, such as Christ returning and doing a bunch of stuff. Or anything else. Dragons flying out of someone's hindend, I don't know. The point is, you still wouldn't likely believe, would you?


i don't know, ask gps777 why he asked that question. well if i 'saw' a dragon, i'd question it, but i'd be more inclined to believe. the same as seeing jesus, or hearing god's voice etc... right now, i've not seen anything or heard anything so i'm not inclined to believe in something i've not experienced.



There is a point at which you cease becoming "Independant" by not accepting group-accepted ideas, and where you become "Unreasonable".


so now i'm unreasonable? or am i still independant? which label are you going to slap on me next...



The miracle of the internet allows us to basque in the wonders of Dictionary.com! Wherein we might learn the actual definitions of words we misuse or ignore!


wierd, you use such a grand word as 'miracle' to describe the internet. modern-miracle at most, not a 'miracle'...the term is over used, thus has lost all meaning.



Here's the definition of what a preference is.
you have a preference. So since you were mistaken, I will retract my "Liar Liar pants on fire" accusation.


again i'll say i have no preference:

''The selecting of someone or something over another or others''.

i don't choose evolution 'over' christianity. you make it seem like a black and white case, which it is not. there are plenty of other theories and plenty of other religions, i do not choose evolution over them, because i'm not saying those religions and theories are false, they are just not real to me. i don't get why you can't see that i don't have a perference.



Literature has always made paradigms of thought more accessible. I could say the same exact thing about any field of science.


not really... my point was: 'would people actually learn aramaic, ancient hebrew, or even latin to read older bibles, and if there were no bible's in the english language would there be as many english speaking christians'. you totally avoided the question.



Okay, let us observe the usage of these words. If I were to call you TRASH, that would have a very different meaning than if I was to say you were a very FLAWED being. If I were to say your opinions were INACCURATE at times, that has a very different meaning than if I were to say your words are nothing but TRASH.


you've called me bias, you think i'm independant but on the brink of becoming unreasonable(or already unreasonable), you think i'm immature, you think i'm less-wise than yourself...like i said you love to dress it up. so in essence you do think i'm trash or my words are, you've just dressed it up to not sound so bad.



I use words with their meaning, sir... I loathe the degredation and wanton self-inflicted decay of word-meaning.


yeah i noticed how you like to call the internet a miracle...you bring that word down, which is used to describe jesus healing the blind and feeding the 5000, to a level much lower. want to talk about 'DEGRADATION' of words...that's one fine example there.



No, you shouldn't say books are trash if they have value. To Invoke Godwin's Law, The Nazi Regime felt that anything not ascribing to the Aryan Nation was trash and thus burned it. The Mother Church decreed that no-one but the church clergy should know how to read during the dark ages, and thus sanctioned a burning of Druidic libraries. Knowledge was lost, vast libraries burned to cinders. Likewise, the greatest library known to ancient man was burned because of the possible heretical texts contained therein.


i don't spend my time burning books, or the bible, or burning down libraries. i think that shows i have more respect than you give me credit for. i'll ask you if you think the porn industry is trash? is no one aloud to call it trash, because it makes people a living, it entertains, and is a lifestyle for some...does that mean we can't call it trash?



You may not like a book, but don't equate any knowledge to trash... even if you don't care or believe in that knowledge.


knowledge that is flawed and innacurate...fine i'll dress it up like you do.



Aaah. Someone who doesn't care what went before him. I know where that leads people.


to hell? also i said i didn't care about some dead authors that wrote the bible...yeah that means i don't care about 'everything' that came before me.



I do. I dedicate myself to banishing extremism from the hearts of others. Any kind of delusional self-appointed reality is harmful. Also, just because other people do it doesn't make it right, friend. If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you? Don't rail against how there are so many sheeple if you are just going to turn around and say "Well, other people do it so it's okay for me to. Go pick on them."


i was merely pointing out there is little respect from christians (extreme or not) on this forum for evolutionist...therefore why should i extend the courtesy to be respectful. if jumping off the bridge was fun i might do it, is there water below and how far is the jump??



Oh yes. The truth is I have more respect for McDonald's employees than I do for those without a job. Don't insult people who serve you your food, they might spit in it or do something worse. They work hard and for very little.


i know i worked in kfc over the summer, not a bad summer job...did put on a bit of weight though. if you hadn't noticed though the comment i made 'the truth hurts'...was a joke...i guess you didn't get it though.



If you don't care what other people think, don't be surprised when you're thoughts don't matter to anyone. Everyone on this good earth has something to offer to you and your soul, or perhaps to your own personal growth if you don't believe in a soul. Nobody is useless, or worthless. We all are living lessons.


hitler was not worthless? stalin was not worthless? saddam hussain is not worthless? sorry to burst your little 'i'm wise and great bubble' but some people are worthless.



It saddens me that people don't even know the meaning of words anymore.


get over it hippie. you've already branded the use of miracle sufficient enough to use to describe the internet. you're such a hypocrite and you don't even know it...now that's called being 'self-delusional'.



"How to find God in one easy step! 1: Look in the book."

Yeah, I'm sure this works for everyone. After all, everyone is so identical, aren't they?


all you've been saying is you can't find god in a book, the same as saintforgod saying god is not ink. my question was 'how can someone find god whilst looking in a mirror...but not in a bible that was inspired by god, and apparently has spoken words by god? again you have totally unanswered the question, and gone for the sarcastic approach.



People are a mishmash of complexities and nuances, stories and personal backgrounds. In the end, any spiritual path is PERSONAL. Some people might find god in their tomato soup, others a mirror, and some might have to read the bloody book to find him.


so you're saying people 'can' find god in the bible? why then is saintforgod telling me 'god isn't ink'.



1. Loud-MOUTHED. Look it up.


a synonym for loud-mouthed is 'LOUD', sorry if it's a little confusing. but for someone that keeps on about dictionary definitions and using words appropriately, doesn't half get it wrong a lot of the time.



No. Use whatever is the truth. Just don't be surprised if people don't like you when you call their holy book trash.


like i said you're in essence calling it trash. flawed and innacurate, it's not exactly positive critism.



Because it also gives you perspective about me. Six years of college doesn't mean much, especially when I shuffled my major around as many times as I did, undecided on what study I was most in love with.


bragging about yourself only gives one perspective of you: 'an arrogant, self-delusional person, who loves to brag about himself'. you have also showed signs of being a hypocrite, i could point some examples out for you if you want me to. i could give you a few more labels, because i know how you love to dish them out.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 05:14 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
i don't know, ask gps777 why he asked that question. well if i 'saw' a dragon, i'd question it, but i'd be more inclined to believe. the same as seeing jesus, or hearing god's voice etc... right now, i've not seen anything or heard anything so i'm not inclined to believe in something i've not experienced.


I thought it was clear why,i even gave an answer after the question for you Shauny which was in line with your response.So to be clearer no matter how much evidence for or against something you will make up your own mind,which is good,just dont rule God out all together keep searching.


get over it hippie. you've already branded the use of miracle sufficient enough to use to describe the internet. you're such a hypocrite and you don't even know it...now that's called being 'self-delusional'.

bragging about yourself only gives one perspective of you: 'an arrogant, self-delusional person, who loves to brag about himself'. you have also showed signs of being a hypocrite, i could point some examples out for you if you want me to. i could give you a few more labels, because i know how you love to dish them out.


I can also give examples of you committing the same things you accuse others of,we all probably have to some degree some more than others.


i was merely pointing out there is little respect from christians (extreme or not) on this forum for evolutionist...therefore why should i extend the courtesy to be respectful.

I would also say you have been shown more respect from Christians than you have shown them.
I responded to a post of your`s were you stated and ranted and raved about Christians rant and rave?where they had`nt and had nothing to do with the thread,dont you think thats hypocritical?
You also acussed myself as being weak,i think your exact words were frightened of you when i suggested when you stated "that your goal is to show Christians their belief system is flawed and illogical" that you should take up something achieveable,i could quite easliy respond by calling you delusional etc.

I`ve tried to understand where your coming from,Christians dont expect or should`nt expect the same courtesy because you cant fully understand without being one but it would be courteous if you left out the insults, you would get less abrasive responses if you believe you`ve recieved them.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 07:14 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I would both defend and break down your beliefs with every once of my spirit. I would stand with you when you do not expect it, and quarrel then when you expect me to stand so that both might grow.


I look forward to it.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
In any case, thank you.


Certianly welcome. I'm happy it was well received
. I was worried otherwise...


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I am uncertain if I fathom what you mean, could you elaborate?


Sure thing:



Since we're having a heart-to-head moment,


That was a bit of a dig, I admit. Trying to speak from my heart to your head, that is
. There's a phrase that goes, "People don't care how much you know until you know how much you care." I think foundationally it's important to give a rat's a$$ about how someone feels before discussing beliefs.



I guess the point that I'm trying to illuminate (no, not illumanti ya'll so stop drooling
)


Conspiracy board joke.



is that your mannerisms speak so loudly that I can't hear what you're saying.


You've got a very interesting message, but the accusations of entire groups seem like an over-generalization, including many people. Sometimes even specific people. Not sure shauny "got what he deserved" but you've already address that, so thanks. It's hard to see the message when bullets are being shot at ya and/or others.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I did not mean the statement in a universal sense, but more a general and inspecific one. I hold exception in every statement I make, though it isn't stated.


Ah. Well, I think a safe adjective would be "some" Christians or "some" scientists. Even "all" is okay when followed by "whom I've talked with" because it excludes the general populace of the belief/study.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Aside from that, I am nothing but a fool who knows nothing of what he speaks. This is the only thing I know. I only find it puzzling that others seem to know so much less. ;-)


I don't doubt that sir, but please give credit to those of different experience. I might not know a lick about the economic development of Kenya over the last 20 years, but I can elaborate on what it's like to encounter financial opposition in university research.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
So you are in good company, aboard a ship of fools. :-)


Woot! But we gots some great things to bring to the table. Dare I say more than the people who are 'scenery' in our everday lives, because we don't get an opportunity to sit down and talk with them most of the time. Have you ever walked up to a person randomly and say, "Tell me, what do you think about God?" If you have, I'd like to hear the response and how I can incorporate that into my daily life.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Again, I have had many good and lenthy conversations with some Christians.


Oh good. Glad we could represent
.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
It isn't they that I speak of, but those who shame "His" name.


Pardon sir, but His name cannot be shamed by any man, even if every voice in the world spoke against Him. He's a much bigger God than that I think.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Yes, but I wasn't calling your particular faith idiotic. Perhaps i should rephrase; there are a greater majority of childish and self-centered pseudo-christians,


Ah that sounds much better. I understand what you mean now. Jesus himself stated there would be and warned against hypocrisy.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
likewise there is a greater majority of scientists who ignore scientific practice when it suits them better.


Gotcha, spot on! I didn't mean to get into a battle of semantics nor tell you how to speak, however when the only way we can communicate is by written word, it's hard to discern sarcasm, gesture, and tone (unless emoted).


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
For instance, LACKING evidence of a thing does not mean casual dismissal, nor does lacking an ability to obtain that evidence mean the simplest conclusion.


BAM! See? That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. If there's any one point to drive home about searching for the truth, I think this would be it.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Frankly, I blame Occam.


Mmmhm, well, I'm still holding you accountable of the methodology of reason no matter who originated it simply because you've adopted it
. *snicker*

I totally appreciate this reply and clarification. I see that my offering of respect was well deserved and indeed you've validated a point of being as wise as you say you are.

Good to have you here CrystalSword.


Question for you if I could. What specifically about Christian belief do you find not credible?

[edit on 4-10-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 07:21 AM
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Originally posted by gps777
I thought it was clear why,i even gave an answer after the question for you Shauny which was in line with your response.So to be clearer no matter how much evidence for or against something you will make up your own mind,which is good,just dont rule God out all together keep searching.


i'm not searching, i don't need to search, i don't need god in my life, and i cannot for the life of me think why i or any person would.



I can also give examples of you committing the same things you accuse others of,we all probably have to some degree some more than others.


i've been shown courtesy by some christians on this board and to those i try and show the same back. those who don't, i have no reason to either.



I would also say you have been shown more respect from Christians than you have shown them.


to my best of knowledge, if i am shown any courtesy in a discussion on here then i reciprocate. i'm not sure who made you judge, jury and executioner.



I responded to a post of your's where you stated and ranted and raved about Christians rant and rave? where they hadn't and had nothing to do with the thread, dont you think thats hypocritical?


i remember, not sure what it was about, mine wasn't so much a rant and rave, more of an observation i had made about some christians who had been doing so. it wouldn't make it hypocritical, it'd make it ironic that i was ranting and raving about christians who rant and rave.



You also acussed myself as being weak,i think your exact words were frightened of you when i suggested when you stated "that your goal is to show Christians their belief system is flawed and illogical" that you should take up something achieveable,i could quite easliy respond by calling you delusional.


well the bible is innacurate and flawed(crystalsword's words), why can the belief system not also be that? i don't remember me saying one of my goals is to show christians their belief system is flawed and illogical. that quote 'you should take up something achievable' you said to me, which is why i said you sounded 'frightened'. all it seems as you're doing is twisting a lot of words around.



I've tried to understand where your coming from,Christians don't expect or shouldn't expect the same courtesy because you cant fully understand without being one but it would be courteous if you left out the insults, you would get less abrasive responses if you believe you've recieved them.


as soon as people stop handing out the insults and labels to me, i'll stop giving them back. i don't do to anyone what they haven't done to me.

[edit on 4-10-2005 by shaunybaby]



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 09:20 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
we agree on a lot, just not on the topic of 'god existing'.


That's cool
. I don't know if I'm going to be able to help you get that proof or not, but I'm sure trying.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
because to believe in god from reading the bible, you have to believe that god gave those commandments to moses, turned the stick in to a snake, flooded the world for 40 days and 40 nights, made adam and eve, if you can't believe in that, then why believe in the god that supposedly inspired this book.


Pretty weird stuff, huh? I take it then no laws of physics/chemistry/biology have been broken in your life beyond natural explanation then, yes? I have to admit, until I forced the issue of finding things beyond the human realm, I hadn't seen any either. Once science got thrown against the wall and punched up a bit, I wasn't willing to see that it wasn't as absolute as it claimed to be. It's just a shame that it took such a violent act to come to the realization. I would want your road to be different, finding the right way and discovering by miracle that this stuff happens. Something so amazingly incredibly good that there is no doubt it came from God (if not God Himself communicating). I know it happens 'cause it happens to me. I just have to help you get it somehow.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
my friend has been a christian since she was about 5. but, she did tell me even if the bible was somehow proven false that she'd still believe because she knows there is still a god (this comes back to being possessed, speaking in tongues, and hearing him in prayer etc).


I think what she's saying is in having the God-experience validates God for her, not just the Book (which is why I'm puzzled that she sent you to the Book instead of talking about what's going on right now). I think that's what a few of us are saying here too. The Book serves as an excellent guide, and when compared to what God actually says to us, it's a tight fit. Even though I read it, I still have my "why God" questions. Some questions get answers right away, some do not. I don't know why, but have to trust that He has His reasons since all other times the answer came at perfect timing. This is hard to explain, but it's like running a marathon covered in sweat thinking "I could really use a little water" and then immediately a heavy rain falls. I'd think "well that's a whole lot more than I meant and need, but is really very refreshing". Blessing indeed.

Sometimes the answer is "no" or "wait", but always for good reason.
Reminds me of a joke of a man talking to God (George Burns):

Man: God, how long is a second for you?

God: A million years.

Man: Lord, how much is a penny to you?

God: A million dollars.

The man pauses to think and gets an idea.

Man: Lord, can I have penny?

God: Just a second.



Originally posted by shaunybaby
often people do go to god when 'they' want him in their life, because of some sort of problem they're having. i wouldn't be one of those people.


I agree that people probably do go to God for selfish reasons, but in trusting in Him instead of yourself, you're giving Him the keys to drive the car. After that point, you're in the passenger seat along for the ride. So it is a give and take relationship. You give trust that He knows what's best for you, you get...well...what's best for you
, which includes the free gift of eternal life.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
i think what i was saying is that 'would i benefit that much having god in my life', my own personal thoughts are no.


Perhaps, but how long do you expect that to last? Honestly, I feel like I cheat death twice a day. Here's a picture of the road I get to work on:



Everytime I see a picture like this or hear on the radio these daily occurences, I envision the caption being "You're next!". Accidents don't always happen because of bad drivers...which is why they're called accidents. I've told people, "when I have my car accident..." and they say "what? What do you mean when?". I said, "According to the law of probabilities and the #1 cause of injury or death, it's bound to happen." Then what happens after that?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
the answer you want is 'because i'm looking in the wrong places'.


Nono, I don't want you to give an answer that is not your own. That'd be unfair for both of us I think.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
but, the answer i'm giving is because i probably haven't really looked at all, most likely because i don't want to, or i have no need to.


That's fair and agree that's what you've been saying.


Originally posted by shaunybaby


If you have no desire to search, then naturally one cannot find. My question is, would you like to find God?


i guess the answer right now would be 'no'. maybe some of us just aren't meant to believe, or be religious and some people are.


I'm having difficulty reconciling that as a former suicidally depressed angry agnostic that I was 'meant to believe', however someone who obviously has much more to live for was not meant to believe. It's a funky puzzle from my perspective.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
i know people have a problem whenever someone says religion can be affected by your genes and the environment you're brought up in, but i'm certain it can. if you're born in to a christian family, with a long history of religion, gone to church from the age of 5, told every story in the bible is the gospel truth, told evolution is the work of the devil...then you are 'more' likely to become a christian yourself, than say a person who has never read the bible, been to church or heard of jesus.


Perhaps, but without the personal evidence to support it, don't you agree that those same exact people would be most likely to loose this belief/faith than anyone else?



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
That's right. Believe it or not I'm human like everyone else with all the quirks and frailties of humanity. Are you suggesting we should embrace our inherent nature (you can read that as 'sin nature')? A few of us might survive such a paradigm shift I suppose.


*chuckles* Glad you brought that up spamandham. Funny thing about the human spirit, we have a conscious. We have the side that knows the right thing to do and a side that knows the wrong thing to do. See there was this tree of knowledge of good and evil...

Anyway, the point is, we can consciously shut out what we know to be good and accept what we know is evil in our heart. That is sin.

Or, we can accept what we know to be good, and shut out what we know is evil in our heart. This is when blessings come in.

It seems to me there's been some re-programming (which is certainly also possibly by our will) going on to where faith is seen as on the sin side, instead of a precursor to blessings. I'm willing to assert that it was caused by pain and is an act of retribution to God. How, or why all this happened, I'm not entirely sure. I don't think you've revealed that yet.

Kudos to the Mrs. by the way, what denomination does she go to that has the contemporary band?



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 09:44 AM
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saint4god
Perhaps, but without the personal evidence to support it, don't you agree that those same exact people would be most likely to loose this belief/faith than anyone else?


Only if confronted. The vast majority of people shelter themselves from dissenting perspectives because paradigm shifts are uncomfortable.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
I don't know if I'm going to be able to help you get that proof or not, but I'm sure trying.


but at the end of the day it's up to me to find god, if i want to. as it's 'personal' and 'different' for each individual.



I take it then no laws of physics/chemistry/biology have been broken in your life beyond natural explanation then, yes?


not that i know of.



I think what she's saying is in having the God-experience validates God for her, not just the Book (which is why I'm puzzled that she sent you to the Book instead of talking about what's going on right now).


well she seemed certain i would find this devinity she was on about in the bible, it pretty much had an opposite effect.



Man: God, how long is a second for you?
God: A million years.
Man: Lord, how much is a penny to you?
God: A million dollars.
The man pauses to think and gets an idea.
Man: Lord, can I have penny?
God: Just a second.



lmao



I agree that people probably do go to God for selfish reasons, but in trusting in Him instead of yourself, you're giving Him the keys to drive the car. After that point, you're in the passenger seat along for the ride. So it is a give and take relationship. You give trust that He knows what's best for you, you get...well...what's best for you
, which includes the free gift of eternal life.


i get the free gift of eternal life anyways according to christian's belief, i'm just gonna be somewhere else.



Perhaps, but how long do you expect that to last? Honestly, I feel like I cheat death twice a day. Here's a picture of the road I get to work on:


so god is like some sort of insurance? better get the contract signed before you buy the farm. i'm just learning to drive...got my test in a few days...very much freaked out by the picture




Everytime I see a picture like this or hear on the radio these daily occurences, I envision the caption being "You're next!". Accidents don't always happen because of bad drivers...which is why they're called accidents. I've told people, "when I have my car accident..." and they say "what? What do you mean when?". I said, "According to the law of probabilities and the #1 cause of injury or death, it's bound to happen." Then what happens after that?


you could go your whole life without a crash, or you could have your first drive and end up in a fatal crash. the same could be said for any type of transport, it'd be like saying i'm never getting a train 'just incase there's a suicide bomber'. you may as well sit at home all day everyday, even though i think that's where most accidents occur anyways. the fact is that's no reason to believe in god, or maybe it allows you to sleep at night knowing you've got your 'insurance'.



I'm having difficulty reconciling that as a former suicidally depressed angry agnostic that I was 'meant to believe', however someone who obviously has much more to live for was not meant to believe.


so you found god due to a life crises?



Perhaps, but without the personal evidence to support it, don't you agree that those same exact people would be most likely to loose this belief/faith than anyone else?


well the 'other' people don't have anything to lose. if you have faith/belief in a religion then it's there to lose, it's not 'there' to lose if you don't have the faith/belief in a religion. It's not a mere coincidence that my christian friend's parents and two brothers are also christian.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I know I have discussed contradictions with you before, but here are some incosistancies:
www.infidels.org...


Links aside, because I'm not very good at communicating with people who don't want to talk to me about it, let's go right to your assessment of inconsistencies.


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I find the most repeated incosistency, is god. For I think that if he was omniscient, all-powerful he should remain consistent in how he acts, but he changes in attitude, what he tells people. God is supposedly perfect, yet he shows many flaws, I guess thats where we get them


Meat and potatoes! Let's get to work, shall we? So far you've listed:

1.) Inconsistent acts
2.) Flaws

Before discussing first one further, I'd like to point out something you said. It was, "For I think that if he was omniscient, all-powerful he should...". The reason I mention this is I think it's important to make the distinction between the way man thinks and the way God thinks:

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord."- Isaiah 55:8

In addition, saying by "he should" suggests that we know of a way better than what God did, that we are in fact wiser than God. The next verse actually addresses that as well:

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts." - Isaiah 55:9

It other words, He's saying we're not going to get it sometimes...at least, not right away anyway.

As for point #2, what 'flaws' are we talking about?


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy

Originally posted by saint4God
How did it survive?

I dont understand? That was TheCrystalSword's comment not mine, I was responding to his post.


Yes, but you said you didn't think the Bible survived thousands of years because of historical accuracy. I was curious to know how you thought it did survive thousands of years.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
but at the end of the day it's up to me to find god, if i want to. as it's 'personal' and 'different' for each individual.


Yeah, but can still hope & pray for some awesome stuff to happen to you to help out, yes?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
not that i know of.


*nods* Gotcha. What you're saying makes total sense. If I could ask just one favor, it would be to please keep an eye out for the fantastic.

Hm, how would you describe a roller-coaster to someone who's never seen one before?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
well she seemed certain i would find this devinity she was on about in the bible, it pretty much had an opposite effect.


But...if she didn't find divinity just by reading the Book, why did she think you would? I don't get it



Originally posted by shaunybaby
lmao


Woot! Glad you liked that one. One of my fav.s



Originally posted by shaunybaby
i get the free gift of eternal life anyways according to christian's belief, i'm just gonna be somewhere else.


It's eternal alright, but I wouldn't necessarily call it "life".


Originally posted by shaunybaby
so god is like some sort of insurance?


Hehe, Afterlife Insurance! "I just saved my eternal life by switching to Jesus!" Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'd use the word Assurance though, instead of Insurance. Insurance pays out if something goes wrong. Assurance pays out no matter what.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
better get the contract signed before you buy the farm.


Exactly my point!


Originally posted by shaunybaby
i'm just learning to drive...got my test in a few days...very much freaked out by the picture


Doh, I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to inspire fear, rather come to terms with or understanding.

I witnessed and accident on Friday. I was right behind the guy. The cars collided and they seemed to go off like fireworks, but instead of fire it was plastic, metal, and glass exploding everywhere. It was a horribly ugly thing to watch. I pulled over and thankfully found everyone okay. Police report, etc. You can understand then why I'm "blowing my horn" when it comes to spiritual dangers.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
you could go your whole life without a crash, or you could have your first drive and end up in a fatal crash. the same could be said for any type of transport, it'd be like saying i'm never getting a train 'just incase there's a suicide bomber'. you may as well sit at home all day everyday, even though i think that's where most accidents occur anyways.


So true. The voice of wisdom speaks.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
the fact is that's no reason to believe in god,


None for you...yet...ya, I get it. Consider it in process though.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
or maybe it allows you to sleep at night knowing you've got your 'insurance'.


Not only sleeping, but awake, or any other living moment. BUT! A really weird thing happens. Instead of me cruisin' along going "yay, I got my 'insurance', I'm good to go", a greater problem exists. Everyone around me is speeding, changing lanes without signals (which caused last Friday's accident), and falling asleep at the wheel.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
so you found god due to a life crises?


The depression and thoughts of suicide were a slow cultivation of boredom and hopelessness, though I wouldn't call that a crisis. It's pretty normal for a lot of folks I think. My demand that anything that existed beyond the human realm to reveal itself (when I became an angry agnostic), now that started a crisis. It was a stupid thing to do and almost permanently cost me. I went to God several weeks later, and he ended the crisis. Not saying I've been without problems we all have in life, but postmortem I was already good to go and even had a lot of tools to deal with those problems (trust, prayer, love, faith, hope, etc.).


Originally posted by shaunybaby
well the 'other' people don't have anything to lose. if you have faith/belief in a religion then it's there to lose, it's not 'there' to lose if you don't have the faith/belief in a religion. It's not a mere coincidence that my christian friend's parents and two brothers are also christian.


I wasn't so lucky. My father isn't, and my mother...well, I was the one who asked her to come to church. Mom didn't talk about her faith before, but after going to the church, she seemed to open up quite a bit. My sister says she is, within the past few years, but I don't think I had anything to do with it.

So then shauny, with nothing to lose and everything to gain, what's the hesitation?

[edit on 4-10-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham

saint4god
Perhaps, but without the personal evidence to support it, don't you agree that those same exact people would be most likely to loose this belief/faith than anyone else?


Only if confronted. The vast majority of people shelter themselves from dissenting perspectives because paradigm shifts are uncomfortable.


And what of those who do not shelter themselves, but go out and discuss and challenge their faith? How do they continue to believe?



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Yeah, but can still hope & pray for some awesome stuff to happen to you to help out, yes?


pray i don't end up like that car stuck under the lorry




Hm, how would you describe a roller-coaster to someone who's never seen one before?


i could describe it but i think you want me to say 'but you have to ''see'' it to realise what it really is'?



But...if she didn't find divinity just by reading the Book, why did she think you would? I don't get it



not sure. guess she thought somehow it'd sway me.



It's eternal alright, but I wouldn't necessarily call it "life".


maybe that's what i got to settle for. if you're right and i'm wrong, i'm headed to a place really bad, but at the end of the day i'm not the only one going there.



Not only sleeping, but awake, or any other living moment. BUT! A really weird thing happens. Instead of me cruisin' along going "yay, I got my 'insurance', I'm good to go", a greater problem exists. Everyone around me is speeding, changing lanes without signals (which caused last Friday's accident), and falling asleep at the wheel.


i think some people prefer to not care so much in life. if something goes wrong then so be it. i mean, who wants to grow old, be slow, in a rest home, and lose everyone you've ever loved...that's not much to aspire to. personally i don't want to grow old, just doesn't seem like me.



a lot of tools to deal with those problems (trust, prayer, love, faith, hope, etc.).


the funny thing is i never could see myself praying, or having a relationship with god...doesn't 'seem' like me.



So then shauny, with nothing to lose and everything to gain, what's the hesitation?


no hesitation, i just don't see the same gain as you see.



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 12:10 PM
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Sorry, I'm just going to rewrite my question to junglejake, perhaps he missed it.

To junglejake:

How would you feel if the government decided to put satanist beliefs, and structures representing those beliefs in the public square?



posted on Oct, 4 2005 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
How would you feel if the government decided to put satanist beliefs, and structures representing those beliefs in the public square?


I did miss it, sorry! I've kind of eluded to this in the past on this thread, but it's just a tad large, and I don't mind restating it in more direct terms


If the government decided to put Satanist beliefs and symbols depicting those beliefs, I would be remarkably disappointed. I would probably want to know what the reasoning is that the government chose to do this. Was it for historical sake, as many of the memorials across the country were? Was it to show solidarity with Satanist's beliefs? Was it done because a large number of people in that area believe in Satanism?

More than likely, I would challenge it. I would write to the local, state and federal politicians in regards to it, maybe even protest it if that were logistically possible. However, I would not try to remove it by revoking Satanists' first amendment rights. I would not try to force the law to remove it. I would work at the politicians. Those whose future job would depend on the majority. I wouldn't threaten to sue. I wouldn't insist a judge misinterpret our religious freedom because I don't like the message something conveys.

So would I work against it? You bet I would. Would I try to make it illegal? Absolutely not! If a community felt that it was well represented by having some satanic symbol or whatever as a monument, so be it. Let it stand as a warning to all who would like to live there, displaying the mentality and morality of that community. It would be well within their constitutional rights.



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