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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Oct, 2 2005 @ 04:32 AM
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so basically you're asking me 'if everyone decided to believe in god, would i therefore believe'. the answer is no, because i'm not a blind follower, or a sheep. why should 'i' search for god? god's supposed to be everywhere, but i have to search out this devine being? the fact is i don't need god in my life, my life is fine, it's not a question of sanity.


He didn't say "if they all believed", if some time in the following years of your life, there showed proof that the universe and everything had divinely been designed, that STILL wouldn't be enough of you. Which is madness, because all extremes are madness. Whether it is extreme disbelief (Self-delusion) or extreme lack of critical analysis (Gullibility). All extremes are bad for people, and the extremes which support ignorant views are the worst of these.



but your intelligence and education usually differ depending on how you were brought up, where you were brought up, and actually genes have showed to have a big affect on whether or not you believe in god. believe it or not there are many things that can affect a person during their life that might sway them one way or another toward or away from god. but as i said there is no universal answer that is true for everybody.


Science thinks this, science doesn't know. There is no such thing as proof, only supporting evidence, and as I am familiar with the studies you are mentioning (And have been for probably LONGER than you), those theories in and of themselves are shaky science that isn't well accepted in peer reviewed journals.



i still don't have a preference, i am open to suggestions and ideas,


Nonsense, don't flat out lie. Everyone can see you have a preference, you prefer not to believe. That's fine, but I can't abide lying.



my christian friend suggested i read the bible, in turn that was my downfall because i read it and i found no devinity at all. if anything it was worse reading the bible because i found out for myself, firsthand that it was utter rubbish. sure that's my opinion, but i'm aloud to have it because i've read it myself.


1. No man can find god in a book, even if it's The Holy Scripture(TM). God can only be found within yourself, as that is where god communes with man, through his spirit.

2. The bible isn't rubbish, more historians find that the bible is an accurate and well documented text that has survived thousands of years, so you really aren't qualified to call it rubbish.

3. You are certainly allowed by right to spew off whatever dross you feel like in a conversation, that doesn't mean anything in respects to if people think you are a fool. It is best to stay silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and prove it. Broad sweeping statements, such as calling a holy book the equivalent of trash (Look up rubbish in the dictionary) doesn't earn you any friends or allies, and it doesn't make you look cool. Have some respect.

4. I don't begrudge atheists their beliefs, I know a few that I've had long conversations with. I don't begrudge christians their beliefs, though I tend to get along less with most of their denominations. I don't begrudge scientists their beliefs, even though they act like bigger idiots than the christians half the time.

A bit of information... I have six years of college under my belt in a wide variety of topics, mostly because I liked the study of many different subjects. Theology is a passion of mine, as is Philosophy. The latter is more of my passion than the former, since I love my Sophia*. I spend free time reading science articles on the internet and taking care of my one and a half year old son. I also spend my free time attempting to lend some enlightenment and manners to the internet communities I participate in.

I get the impression that I am both older and a bit wiser than you are on these topics. Perhaps I am wrong, but that's the impression I get. Of course I've been where you are now, and through so many variations of ugliness that I tend to come from a very different place when talking to others. One thing that I've tried to distill out of myself is that bloody feeling that I'm *RIGHT* that so many people tend to get.... because that way lies ignorance and extremism, that way lies madness.


* - Kudos to those who get the joke.




posted on Oct, 2 2005 @ 07:21 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
He didn't say "if they all believed", if some time in the following years of your life, there showed proof that the universe and everything had divinely been designed, that STILL wouldn't be enough of you.


no, what he was saying is 'if scientists turned around tomorrow and all believed in god would i also believe' (suggesting i might just be following scientists and doing what they're doing). that's an absurd question, and i most certainly wouldn't just believe, just because other people do. i thought people already claim there is evidence for ID? i chose not to believe it because it doesn't make sense, the eyeball or spider's web is not proof of a devine creator.



Science thinks this, science doesn't know. There is no such thing as proof, only supporting evidence, and as I am familiar with the studies you are mentioning (And have been for probably LONGER than you), those theories in and of themselves are shaky science that isn't well accepted in peer reviewed journals.


like i said it isn't going to be universal for every individual. BUT, intelligence, education, the way you are brought up, the environment you are brought up in, and genes, CAN play a role in whether you will believe or not believe in god. but as i said this isn't universal, but it still can affect a person to whether or not they will believe in god. for example if your dad supports arsenal, you live nearby their stadium, and you are taken to a lot of their matches, it is more than likely that you will grow up prefering arsenal over another team. sure you might support a different team, but chances are you'll be an arsenal fan. the same chance that if your parents are religious, you are taken to church, you go to a religious school...you are likely to believe in god...more likely than someone that hasn't even heard of god for example.



Nonsense, don't flat out lie. Everyone can see you have a preference, you prefer not to believe. That's fine, but I can't abide lying.


your ignorance here is that you think i'm an evolutionist, when i'm not. i don't give myself a title like others who call themselves christians. but that's o.k, you like to label people...that's fine with me...just get the label right. if jesus came down tomorrow and said 'hey shaun, dude, why don't you believe in me', i'd either become christian or stop using too many cocktails of drugs.



1. No man can find god in a book, even if it's The Holy Scripture(TM). God can only be found within yourself, as that is where god communes with man, through his spirit.


so why even have the bible, if god is within ourselves?... god is supposed to be everywhere...just not in the bible, is that what you're saying?



2. The bible isn't rubbish, more historians find that the bible is an accurate and well documented text that has survived thousands of years, so you really aren't qualified to call it rubbish.


first you speak like the bible isn't important when you're finding god...but now it's so important it can't be dismissed as garbage...make your mind up. i read it with an open mind, before i knew anything at all about evolution, it just doesn't appeal to me. some people are meant to be religious and some are not.



3. You are certainly allowed by right to spew off whatever dross you feel like in a conversation, that doesn't mean anything in respects to if people think you are a fool. It is best to stay silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and prove it. Broad sweeping statements, such as calling a holy book the equivalent of trash (Look up rubbish in the dictionary) doesn't earn you any friends or allies, and it doesn't make you look cool. Have some respect.


it's a book! a fiction piece of work at that! just because it's been around for thousands of years doesn't mean we need to get down on our knees and lick the pages like puppy dogs. i'm not looking for street cred to be cool, i'm also not looking to impress my friends or allies. i told you i read the bible and that's what i found...so i'm not aloud to voice my opinion, according to you? perhaps instead of calling me a fool maybe you could ask me what parts i thought were trashy, and with the light inside you perhaps you could tell me why i should not think it is trash (more reason than 'cause it's a holy book').



4. I don't begrudge atheists their beliefs, I know a few that I've had long conversations with. I don't begrudge christians their beliefs, though I tend to get along less with most of their denominations. I don't begrudge scientists their beliefs, even though they act like bigger idiots than the christians half the time.


if we don't say what's on our minds. if we don't speak what we're thinking. if we don't voice our opinions, then all we are are little sheep who are too scared to say something different. well i'm saying something different and you don't like it, maybe you're not used to people having opinions and are happy to voice them.



A bit of information... I have six years of college under my belt in a wide variety of topics, mostly because I liked the study of many different subjects. Theology is a passion of mine, as is Philosophy. The latter is more of my passion than the former, since I love my Sophia*. I spend free time reading science articles on the internet and taking care of my one and a half year old son. I also spend my free time attempting to lend some enlightenment and manners to the internet communities I participate in.


well it's a bit hard for me to have spent six years at college...i'm nineteen. in a theology class you would learn that moses didn't write the pentateuch or supporting evidence to suggest he didn't, at church i was told he did. why is the church telling me moses wrote those books when there's more evidence to suggest that he didn't? maybe this is what keeps me from the church, one lie could mean there are more lies. the same reason saintforgod doesn't lie to his daughter, because she would never know what was truth and what was a lie. maybe i could trust the church is they didn't lie, simple as.



I get the impression that I am both older and a bit wiser than you are on these topics. Perhaps I am wrong, but that's the impression I get. Of course I've been where you are now, and through so many variations of ugliness that I tend to come from a very different place when talking to others. One thing that I've tried to distill out of myself is that bloody feeling that I'm *RIGHT* that so many people tend to get.... because that way lies ignorance and extremism, that way lies madness.


you're right you're older, and i'm not bothered about you being wiser. i'm not here to measure our dicks in public, even though you insist on doing so. i take it you also think i'm coming from a more immature angle than you? i never said i was right, i also never claimed to be right, i don't come on here with evidence to suggest evolution is right, and start threads about it. i'm on here usually to defend what i believe to be true, on threads that other people start usually titled 'evolution stinks'. i'm aloud to have my opinion, if it's different to yours then so be it, but it doesn't mean i'm right or you're right. hey, if we didn't have these opinions we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.



* - Kudos to those who get the joke.


i guess you are wiser...i 'got' no joke. kudos on the being wiser than me


[edit on 2-10-2005 by shaunybaby]



posted on Oct, 2 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by junglejake
I think, then, we're going to have to define what insane is.


Insanity is when your internal model of the world differs significantly from the actual world. We are all insane to some degree, but faith fosters an increase in insanity.


Originally posted by junglejake
On top of that, they were hardly psychologists; do you claim that you are?


No. I don't need to be a psychologist to know that insanity is a possible explanation.


Originally posted by junglejake
However, that doesn't account for lepers, people with gamey hands, or life long cripples.


Are there modern cases of a leprosy healed through faith?


Originally posted by junglejake
They're either insane or lying, and there can be no other option?


I don't recall saying anything like that. If you speak in generalities, these are two generalities that must be considered. For a specific case, there are generally other possibilities.


Originally posted by junglejake
You do you immediately dismiss the supernatural as not existing when so many others, including scholars and professionals, believe it does?


Yes. It doesn't matter who believes it exists if they have no reason for such beliefs. I wouldn't be impressed even if Einstein had believed, or Steven Hawking.


Originally posted by junglejake
On top of that, everything is possible.


By definition, that which is inconsistent is not possible. Most supernatural claims rest on inconsistent definitions and are impossible as a result.


Originally posted by junglejake
Is it probable that people all over the world all are either liars or insane who believe in what the Bible tells them (or claim to, in the case of the liars)?


It is probable they have themselves accepted a lie based on flimsy arguments and emotional appeals, and simply repeat them because they don't understand rational thinking. By your line of argument, the Qu'ran must also be true since a billion people believe it.


Originally posted by junglejake
Is it probable that, despite the testamony of psychologists, paramedics, doctors, and other otherwise trustworthy individuals all are lying about bizzare, unnatural experiences that do not fit into the naturalistic frame of mind? Or maybe they're just insane.


...or it does fit a naturalistic frame of mind and people are simply being uncritical because they want the answer to be supernatural. I'm unimpressed by what psychologists, paramedics, and doctors have to say off the cuff. Show me some controlled studies or well documented cases, and you'll have my attention.


Originally posted by junglejake
Again, probability, my friend. It is extremely probable that, when I stick my bread in something that gets extremely hot, that it's the heat that turns my bread brown.


To speak of probability in relation to the existence of the supernatural is nonsenical. It either exists or it doesn't, and there is no way to assess the likelihood of its existence without either confirming its existence, or proving the impossibility thereof. What you are doing is making a judgement, nothing more.


Originally posted by junglejake
But to assume that man and science know all there is to know about this universe, and that knowledge has proven that there cannot be a supernatural, there cannot be any unknowns in our day to day interactions is also special pleading.


Where have I made such a claim? The claim is that there is no credible reason to even suspect the existence of the supernatural (a contradiction of terms by the way), and the second claim is that "supernatural" can not even be defined consistently except by explanation of what it isn't. In that sense, it doesn't differ from the definition of the word 'nothing'.



posted on Oct, 2 2005 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
if some time in the following years of your life, there showed proof that the universe and everything had divinely been designed, that STILL wouldn't be enough of you.


There no such thing as proof, remember? So if there was supporting evidence for a creator but still there were disbelievers, wouldnt that be like it is now with evolution?


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Nonsense, don't flat out lie. Everyone can see you have a preference, you prefer not to believe. That's fine, but I can't abide lying.

You can have a preference and still be open-minded.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
God can only be found within yourself...through his spirit.

Where's the supporting evidence for that?


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
2. The bible isn't rubbish, more historians find that the bible is an accurate and well documented text that has survived thousands of years,

The Bible has many inconsistencies with history. I dont think it's survived for a thousand years because of its historical accuracy.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
4. I don't begrudge scientists their beliefs, even though they act like bigger idiots than the christians half the time.

Come again? Im sure if you look throughout history the idiocy is a little one-sided.


Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
* - Kudos to those who get the joke.

How about all the contradictions in this post? Or maybe the smugness is sarcasm?

[edit on 2-10-2005 by Charlie Murphy]



posted on Oct, 2 2005 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
no, what he was saying is 'if scientists turned around tomorrow and all believed in god would i also believe'


That would be a stupid thing of him to ask, and I don't believe he's stupid. I think he asked that if Christ came down tomorrow and did something that was impossible. I say you still wouldn't believe, because that's your bias. You'd think you were having hallucinations.




like i said it isn't going to be universal for every individual. BUT, intelligence, education, the way you are brought up, the environment you are brought up in, and genes, CAN play a role(...)


According to some studies, yes. Whether those studies are even remotely correct remains to be seen. I will give you this, there are some people that are prone to altered states, what that means I have no idea. Perhaps they're mad, or perhaps everyone else is just blind.



Nonsense, don't flat out lie. Everyone can see you have a preference, you prefer not to believe. That's fine, but I can't abide lying.




your ignorance here is that you think i'm an evolutionist, when i'm not.


I didn't assume you were, I said you lied when you said you had no preference, which you have.



so why even have the bible, if god is within ourselves?... god is supposed to be everywhere...just not in the bible, is that what you're saying?


Because all people do not think in the same ways, some aren't capable of communing with their deity without a crutch or focii. A majority of people are sheeple, after all... reducing things to a simple approach serves the people who can't do it on their own.




first you speak like the bible isn't important when you're finding god...but now it's so important it can't be dismissed as garbage...make your mind up.


Do you even see what's wrong with your statement? The bible isn't important to me. I personally think it's flawed and inaccurate in a lot of areas, but show some damn respect for other people, sir. Other people find it valuable and important. And there has been much historical study done with sections of the bible that did discover accuracies in it. No book is "Rubbish", every book has a meaning to someone. I respect those people who value the book, even should I not find it important to my own spiritual path.



it's a book! a fiction piece of work at that!


Just because you think so and say so doesn't make it true, and is just another example of disrespect for a good majority of the population. Whether I agree with your POV that it's fiction or not is irrelevant, it's still disrespectful to dismiss a book that people build their lives around as if you are wiser than they are.



just because it's been around for thousands of years doesn't mean we need to get down on our knees and lick the pages like puppy dogs.


No, I see no reason to worship something because its old. I do see a reason to respect something that so many others have died for and paid dearly for throughout history, regardless what those reasons are.



i'm not looking for street cred to be cool, i'm also not looking to impress my friends or allies. i told you i read the bible and that's what i found...so i'm not aloud to voice my opinion, according to you?


Your opinion is like going into a Science convention and calling all the evolutionists retards. You're free to voice your opinion, by all means do.

Or perhaps going to a McDonald's and calling all the people that work there losers.

Or perhaps Telling the Military that they are all a bunch of moronic jarheads that don't have independant thought and couldn't handle the real world so had to join the army.



perhaps instead of calling me a fool maybe you could ask me what parts i thought were trashy, and with the light inside you perhaps you could tell me why i should not think it is trash (more reason than 'cause it's a holy book').


A good question. And I didn't call you a fool, regardless that foolishness and ignorance is fixable (So be thankful I haven't called you stupid or an idiot).

I would ask you that question, except you said you went looking for god in a book and didn't find him... which I have already declared you can't do. I think saint and junglejake would back me up no this, there is more to finding god than the bible.



if we don't say what's on our minds. if we don't speak what we're thinking. if we don't voice our opinions, then all we are are little sheep who are too scared to say something different.


So if I am to understand you in this, in order to be a non-sheep, we have to be loud-mouthed, opinionated, and refuse to shut up? I don't call those people wise.

"There is a time to keep silence, and a time to speak."

Name that quote.



well i'm saying something different and you don't like it, maybe you're not used to people having opinions and are happy to voice them.


I'm sorry, that's the funniest thing I've heard today. I seek out conflict in conversation, I enjoy wading into the thick of an argument. I adulate about people's differences and beliefs. However, I can't abide foolishness, nor people saying "This is the way it is, and all of you are delusional".

I like people having civilized debates, where they actually hear the other person out. Talking to brick walls seems to end up being my fate, however.



well it's a bit hard for me to have spent six years at college...i'm nineteen.


I suppose I should be more forgiving, as every young person is very vehement about what they believe even should their information and experiences be limited. I know I was.



in a theology class you would learn that moses didn't write the pentateuch or supporting evidence to suggest he didn't, at church i was told he did. why is the church telling me moses wrote those books when there's more evidence to suggest that he didn't? maybe this is what keeps me from the church, one lie could mean there are more lies.


Two things... 1. I am fairly certain the church lies for power reasons. 2. However, I wouldn't assume the church you attended intentionally lied to you, rather they may have been mistaken. Don't assume people who are ignorant of something are lying to you. I would bet most of the people at the church you attended didn't know what you knew in that respect.



the same reason saintforgod doesn't lie to his daughter, because she would never know what was truth and what was a lie. maybe i could trust the church is they didn't lie, simple as.


My own biased POV is that you should never trust the church, as it is not God or god's will on earth, but man's interpretation of god's will... which will always and forever be flawed and imperfect.



I get the impression that I am both older and a bit wiser than you are on these topics. Perhaps I am wrong, but that's the impression I get. Of course I've been where you are now, and through so many variations of ugliness that I tend to come from a very different place when talking to others. One thing that I've tried to distill out of myself is that bloody feeling that I'm *RIGHT* that so many people tend to get.... because that way lies ignorance and extremism, that way lies madness.




you're right you're older, and i'm not bothered about you being wiser. i'm not here to measure our dicks in public, even though you insist on doing so.


Nonsense. I am no greater than you are. The only reason I continue to talk is because I believe all mankind is capable of the same levels of intellect and understanding. The only reason I bring up my own age is to put into perspective who I am talking to. I am sorry, but it is a valid and relevant piece of information that you are 19. However much that might anger you, because I KNOW it angered me at your age, it does effect your POV.



i take it you also think i'm coming from a more immature angle than you?


Yes, but that's most people, I'm afraid... my own arrogance and pride in that respect I fear.



i never said i was right, i also never claimed to be right, i don't come on here with evidence to suggest evolution is right, and start threads about it.


Which wouldn't be bad at all.



i'm on here usually to defend what i believe to be true, on threads that other people start usually titled 'evolution stinks'.


My advice is you shouldn't be defending what you think is true, you should be trying to find the truth until you keel over dead. To think something is true is an ignorance mankind is talented at producing.



i'm aloud to have my opinion, if it's different to yours then so be it, but it doesn't mean i'm right or you're right. hey, if we didn't have these opinions we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.


I would wager you aren't too familiar with the actual length or breadth of my opinions, since I rarely throw them out there in all actuality. I am very good at posing opinions as my own.



i guess you are wiser...i 'got' no joke. kudos on the being wiser than me



Philo-Sophia, from Latin meaning "Love of Sophia", who in Gnostic faith is the mother of the Demi-urgos and Christ, the true son of spirit.


[edit on 10/2/2005 by TheCrystalSword]



posted on Oct, 2 2005 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by Charlie Murphy

There no such thing as proof, remember? So if there was supporting evidence for a creator but still there were disbelievers, wouldnt that be like it is now with evolution?


Which is why I was posing a hypothetical, it has nothing to do with what I believe. If it were possible to have proof, I argue that disbelievers would still disbelieve, which is just as illogical as believers believing if god was "PROVED" false. I find both to be silly notions, people hanging onto ideas simply because they want to rather than any rational reason.



You can have a preference and still be open-minded.


You indeed can, but he said he had no preference, I call foul.



Where's the supporting evidence for that?


I am fairly certain that New Testament worshippers never read "Those who come to the father come only through his book".

I am also fairly certain that every other worshipper in the world things there is something more to just reading a book to be touched by their beliefs.

To answer; No supporting evidence, just what I would think is common sense, which I could be wrong about.



The Bible has many inconsistencies with history. I dont think it's survived for a thousand years because of its historical accuracy.


Indeed it hasn't, but there are many things that historians and such have found out through the bible. There are also inconsistencies, both can be true.



Come again? Im sure if you look throughout history the idiocy is a little one-sided.


True, scientists historically have been less foolish than christians. However, how old is science? Secondly, I was talking about my personal experiences, which you aren't qualified to criticize.



How about all the contradictions in this post? Or maybe the smugness is sarcasm?


No contradictions, only what you want to see. I also don't think that I was being sarcastic with any of that. Perhaps a touch of smugness here and there.



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 05:18 AM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
That would be a stupid thing of him to ask, and I don't believe he's stupid. I think he asked that if Christ came down tomorrow and did something that was impossible. I say you still wouldn't believe, because that's your bias. You'd think you were having hallucinations.


i know it was a stupid question, i said it was absurd. he never mentioned about christ coming down. he just said that if scientist's changed their minds and believed in god tomorrow...would i also? go back and read his question. i'll even save you the trouble:


Originally posted by gps777
But Shauny if they were all to agree one day and come to the conclusion God exists will that be enough for you to believe?


how you figured that meant christ coming down tomorrow and doing something impossible i'll never know.



I didn't assume you were, I said you lied when you said you had no preference, which you have.


but i don't call it a 'preference'. you might call it that. but just because someone wants to know what i believe, and i say evolution, it doesn't mean that is my preference nor does it mean i'm not open minded. a preference would be something you prefer to believe in over another, this is not the case for me believing evolution is right over christianity.



Because all people do not think in the same ways, some aren't capable of communing with their deity without a crutch or focii. A majority of people are sheeple, after all... reducing things to a simple approach serves the people who can't do it on their own.


i wonder if the bible was still in ancient hebrew, aramaic, if as many people would still believe? would they even 'bother' going to church, or trying to read the bible, i think someone would, but an awful lot wouldn't. that's why muslim readers in mosques(spelling?) now read in english for the younger muslims.



Do you even see what's wrong with your statement? The bible isn't important to me. I personally think it's flawed and inaccurate in a lot of areas, but show some damn respect for other people, sir.


i call it trash. you just dress it up saying flawed and inaccurate. and what is a flawed and inaccurate book...a piece of trash perhaps? it's not a question of respect for others, no one today wrote the book so why should they care, i'm having a go at dead authors...sorry if that upsets anyone.



Just because you think so and say so doesn't make it true, and is just another example of disrespect for a good majority of the population. Whether I agree with your POV that it's fiction or not is irrelevant, it's still disrespectful to dismiss a book that people build their lives around as if you are wiser than they are.


so if you build your life around 'of pandas and people' or 'd is for dinosaur(a book for christian kids showing we lived with dinosaurs)', then i shouldn't say those books are trash, even though they aren't accurate and a fable's of lies? it's my opinion, it might not show respect, but then again i'm not entitled to.



No, I see no reason to worship something because its old. I do see a reason to respect something that so many others have died for and paid dearly for throughout history, regardless what those reasons are.


and i care about these dead people because...



Your opinion is like going into a Science convention and calling all the evolutionists retards. You're free to voice your opinion, by all means do.


am i in a christian convention and calling them retards...no. and by the way, my attitude to christians on here is pretty much mirrored by some people who don't like evolution, so maybe you could give them a lesson or two.



Or perhaps going to a McDonald's and calling all the people that work there losers.


the truth hurts...



A good question. And I didn't call you a fool, regardless that foolishness and ignorance is fixable (So be thankful I haven't called you stupid or an idiot).


i read the bible, i thought it was trash, why should i care that people live their lives by this book. you yourself said you think it's flawed and innacurate...you're just using different adjectives, but you're saying the same thing.



I would ask you that question, except you said you went looking for god in a book and didn't find him... which I have already declared you can't do. I think saint and junglejake would back me up no this, there is more to finding god than the bible.


saint for god was in front of a mirror in his bathroom...you can find here but not in the holy scripture that apparently has the words of god?



So if I am to understand you in this, in order to be a non-sheep, we have to be loud-mouthed, opinionated, and refuse to shut up? I don't call those people wise.


one, i'm not loud. two, i'm opinionated...big deal, sorry to have an opinion, and refusing to shut up?...o.k i will, i'll leave this discussion closed once i'm done with this post.



"There is a time to keep silence, and a time to speak."
Name that quote.


i didn't know it, but i looked it up, from ecclesiastes.



I'm sorry, that's the funniest thing I've heard today. I seek out conflict in conversation, I enjoy wading into the thick of an argument. I adulate about people's differences and beliefs. However, I can't abide foolishness, nor people saying "This is the way it is, and all of you are delusional".


i'm not delusional, i'm telling you what i think of the bible...but apprently i've got to use better adjectives like flawed and innacurate so i respect other's beliefs.



Two things... 1. I am fairly certain the church lies for power reasons. 2. However, I wouldn't assume the church you attended intentionally lied to you, rather they may have been mistaken.


there you are again, too scared to say the truth, you have to lighten it up by saying 'mistaken' rather than 'lie'. so as you said 'the church lies'. however, it's neither here nor there that it's a mistake. you've already said 'the church lies'. so why would i become a part of religion that lies?



Nonsense. I am no greater than you are. The only reason I continue to talk is because I believe all mankind is capable of the same levels of intellect and understanding. The only reason I bring up my own age is to put into perspective who I am talking to. I am sorry, but it is a valid and relevant piece of information that you are 19. However much that might anger you, because I KNOW it angered me at your age, it does effect your POV.


it doesn't anger me. just makes me see who you are for real. why bother bringing up that you are wiser or spent six years at college other than to brag?



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 06:29 AM
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Originally posted by RANT
Uh, yeah okay some atheist ninnies wanting to test case law "proves" the power of Christianity.
Why is outside justification so important to validate this belief system anyway? Some inherant weakness of the doctrine itself or just the personal failings and insecurities of the followers? Annnnyway...


Now you are acting as if the goal of sharing religion with others is to get outside justification, and that's so very invalid.
To link this invalid statement with an "inherant doctrine" or, even worse, "personal failings and insecurities of the followers" is just beyond ridiculous.

Christians have tried to share their religion for many reasons and in many ways. Some good and some bad, but the reason you came up with is not one of them.


Despite the rather recent appearance of all this public space idolatry you're so concerned with defending (mostly donated my a bunch of liberals in the 1960's -enjoy-), I think it's more from the offensive hyper-political tone of public space idolatry defenders that anyone is even rallied to "persecute you" ...as I'm sure you must feel I'm doing now much to your delight.


In a way you are right, you are one of the "anti-christian" (can I put you in that box?) "forces" on ATS, that partly proves the point JJ made, but to act as if only the "offensive hyper-political" christians are targetted by those like you (and worse types) is ignorant.
Ignorant because it means you ignore the many attacks and bashes that target the "normal" christians that, themselves, condemn the offensive hyper-political christians many are using to trashtalk christianity in general.


It's really not the statues Jake. It's everything else about the conspiracy in which you find yourself immersed and constantly witnessing upon some rather fed up "persecutors."


Really?
To me it seems that, unless you hide the fact that you are a christian you can't (in both daily life AND on ATS) avoid being accused of "forcing" things unto others at some point.

Others just do not want to hear your opinion it seems, when it even slighty touches an area that has to do with your view on life, and your belief in a God.

I remember a conversation I had with a co-worker, a conversation that he started, because he felt that my religion was based on fantasy and such.
When I argued about biogenesis, the start of things, and why I was under the impressions creationism made more sense than evolutionism, he told me to stop forcing my religion onto him. (he probably heard someone yell that on TV, and thought it was a nice line to shut me up when he did not know what to reply to my arguments)
I had to remind him that it was him who started the conversation about this subject and that I had merely been answering his questions, and replying to his statements.


"We are talking about Christianizing America. We are talking about simply spreading the gospel in a political context."


Quoting those that even many christians see as extremist, wrong, or simply jerks, is the easy way to make your point come across RANT, but it's not a fair one.
I am not going to give excuses for jerks that happen to be christian, neither do I not understand why these individuals are target of bashing and attacks from you and others.
But to act as if they are the one reason for JJ's "conspiracy against christianity" is like saying it's Falwell's fault that people in Tibet are being captured and tortured for being Christian.


[edit on 3-10-2005 by Jakko]



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 09:57 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
Insanity is when your internal model of the world differs significantly from the actual world. We are all insane to some degree, but faith fosters an increase in insanity.


Do you have any faith in anything?

In regards to "knowing" that insanity is a possible explanation, you're working from the assumption that it does not and cannot exist. Therefore you're putting a lot of faith in your own personal world view being absolutely correct. Otherwise, there would be a question about what they experience, instead of a sweeping claim.

Modern cases of leprosy being healed? None that you would believe. I could find news articles, books, journal articles, etc. However, why would I waste my time presenting you with information you already know is false, and will simply discredit the story in some sweeping claim with no evidence to back it up?


Originally posted by junglejake
They're either insane or lying, and there can be no other option?


I don't recall saying anything like that. If you speak in generalities, these are two generalities that must be considered. For a specific case, there are generally other possibilities.


Originally posted by junglejake
You do you immediately dismiss the supernatural as not existing when so many others, including scholars and professionals, believe it does?




It doesn't matter who believes it exists if they have no reason for such beliefs.


And what is your reason for knowing it doesn't exist?

I'm curious where you got the definition, "that which is inconsistent is not possible." I would suggest writing to a bunch of scientists and letting them know their research into quantum theory and chaos theory is pointless since both theories are, by your definition, impossible.



By your line of argument, the Qu'ran must also be true since a billion people believe it.


That was but one filament of my line of argument. There have been many other filaments that you have faithfully dismissed as impossible, unlikely, etc.


EDIT: Spelin iz nut gud

[edit on 10-3-2005 by junglejake]



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
Having attended quite a few Catholic masses, I know the difference between boredom and what happens with a repetitive high volume soundtrack with a bass heavy preacher, dim lights, and people jumping up and down with the music. Have you ever been to a charismatic/pentacostal style service? It's as freaky as any haunted house.


I know what you mean spamandham, I've visted 2 pentacostal churches (though didn't know they were before going). It was...not the place for me. Ours is more alternativey, like the style you hear on the radio, the only difference being lyrics. One time they did this funk-style/blues song, that was pretty cool. Wish they'd mix it up with that stuff more often. No jumping up and down though, dim lights or singing preacher. It reminds me of a few concerts I went to in college. Actually, they did host a Sactus Real concert about two months ago. That rocked the house! Sound bits can be heard here (though not super-high quality): www.sanctusreal.com...

I wish you could come visit sometime. It'd be worth going to for the band alone.

[edit on 3-10-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Do you have any faith in anything?


Yes, but I try not to. When I discover I'm operating on faith I try to dig deeper and figure out why. Then I try to learn about arguments that oppose my position.


Originally posted by junglejake
In regards to "knowing" that insanity is a possible explanation, you're working from the assumption that it does not and cannot exist. Therefore you're putting a lot of faith in your own personal world view being absolutely correct.


To say that insanity is a possible explanation is not the same as saying that it is the explanation. No faith is required to tabulate the possibilities, and lying/insanity can never be dismissed unless there is hard documentation.

However, I do have a bias toward the natural, and will always look for natural explanations. The field of faith healing is so filled with pious fraud, exaggeration and legend that it's difficult to take take any such claims seriously, particularly when they are so poorly documented. How many faith healings need to be debunked before it's acceptable to recognize the entire field as 98% BS and 2% placebo effect?

Interestingly, the Catholic church has an ongoing experiment into faith healing regarding claims of healing at Fatima. There are legions of faithful pouring out of there with claims of miraculopus healing. The church has meticulously investigated thousands of these claims and found all but a few to be false, exaggeration, urban legend, placebo effect, etc. Those few genuine "miracles" happen to match up with the rates of spontaneous healing in the general population.


Originally posted by junglejake
Modern cases of leprosy being healed? None that you would believe.


I could believe leprosy has been healed without modern antibiotics, but you're right that I would not likely atrribute a supernatural cause to the healing unless it could be consistently documented and repeated. I was really just interested in a source, not research on your part, as it seemed like you were indicating there were modern cases of faith healing of leprosy. But perhaps you were simply referencing the Bible.



Originally posted by junglejake
And what is your reason for knowing it doesn't exist?


I don't know the supernatural doesn't exist. I simply see no reason to even suspect that it does, and judge it as nonexistent on that basis.


Originally posted by junglejake
I'm curious where you got the definition, "that which is inconsistent is not possible."


It flows directly from the definitions of "inconsistent" and "possible". I'm not interested in dictionary debates. You're free to look these things up on your own.


Originally posted by junglejake
I would suggest writing to a bunch of scientists and letting them know their research into quantum theory and chaos theory is pointless since both theories are, by your definition, impossible.


I'm not aware that quantum theory rests on inconsistencies. If it does, then an honest scientist will admit this proves it is false. However, that doesn't mean it's useless. We still use Newtonian physics even though we know it's false, because it's a close enough approximation.


Originally posted by junglejake

By your line of argument, the Qu'ran must also be true since a billion people believe it.


That was but one filament of my line of argument. There have been many other filaments that you have faithfully dismissed as impossible, unlikely, etc.


This particular filament is a logical fallacy, as are the other filaments of your argument as best I can tell. 1000 falacies constructed upon eachother still have no weight bearing capability.



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by junglejake
Do you have any faith in anything?


Yes, but I try not to. When I discover I'm operating on faith I try to dig deeper and figure out why. Then I try to learn about arguments that oppose my position.


So faith comes naturally for you? So in order to deny faith, you have to deny that inherent nature. I'm gonna sit and think on that for a while.



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
I wish you could come visit sometime. It'd be worth going to for the band alone.


There's a church not far from my house that has contemporary Christian music with an excellent band. On the rare occasions my wife drags me to church, I insist on going there so I can at least enjoy the music.



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 03:33 PM
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(re-organized the post for progression. Hope that's alright shauny)


Originally posted by shaunybaby
so basically you're asking me 'if everyone decided to believe in god, would i therefore believe'. the answer is no, because i'm not a blind follower,


I agree that you shouldn't be a blind follower. I'm not, and understand why we need our proof.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
my christian friend suggested i read the bible, in turn that was my downfall because i read it and i found no devinity at all. if anything it was worse reading the bible because i found out for myself, firsthand that it was utter rubbish. sure that's my opinion, but i'm aloud to have it because i've read it myself.


I think I see the problem. Just reading the Bible doesn't prove divinity. There's no 'magic spell' on the Book to make someone believe in God. God is alive now, not ink in a Book. Why did your friend believe? Did s/he read the Book and *poof!* suddenly a believer? If it were that easy, I'd hang out on street-corners handing out books, colleges would just be a massive self-serve library, and work would be a 9-story study hall. I think you had the right question, but I don't think you were given the right answer.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
the fact is i don't need god in my life, my life is fine,


Perhaps. So you plan to look for God only when you're in trouble?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
so before that i never had a preference and it's not like i avoided church, i just never 'found' god.


Well, that's probably because...


Originally posted by shaunybaby
why should 'i' search for god?


If you have no desire to search, then naturally one cannot find. My question is, would you like to find God?



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I get the impression that I am both older and a bit wiser than you are on these topics.


And a thousand times more humble too!



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
The Bible has many inconsistencies with history.


For example?


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I dont think it's survived for a thousand years because of its historical accuracy.


How did it survive?



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 04:10 PM
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Hello junglejake,

If the government decided to put Satanist teachings in the public square, what would be your reaction?



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
Hello junglejake,

If the government decided to put Satanist teachings in the public square, what would be your reaction?


Oooh! Oooh! Awww man....Jake got picked
. *lowers hand* All you JJ...



[edit on 3-10-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I get the impression that I am both older and a bit wiser than you are on these topics.


And a thousand times more humble too!


Sadly, my Humility and my Honesty are often at heads with eachother. I don't presume to behave in a perfect manner, and I tend to say what is on my mind at the time. I had been wondering if shauny was in that part of life which I personally recall. While I've never been atheist, I was rather dismissive of divinity for a couple years.

As such, I can't say I don't feel older (Oi vey) or wiser (Damn whipper snappers!) than a lot of people. This is generally where I come into problems. See, many people want those who are older/wiser to play down that wisdom because they dislike knowing someone may know more than they do. People, especially Ameican people, are not very deferential. Unfortunately, I think that is disingenuous and untrue. For me, being honest is cherished and golden. No matter what it is that is the truth, and yes, some of it may in fact hurt people's feelings... but really, if you are looking for a self delusional answer, asking me is the first big mistake you could make.

Needless to say, I have few friends, since many people actually like draping themselves in fabricated realities of their own misconceived notions of self.



posted on Oct, 3 2005 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby

i know it was a stupid question, i said it was absurd. he never mentioned about christ coming down. he just said that if scientist's changed their minds and believed in god tomorrow...would i also? go back and read his question. i'll even save you the trouble:


Originally posted by gps777
But Shauny if they were all to agree one day and come to the conclusion God exists will that be enough for you to believe?


how you figured that meant christ coming down tomorrow and doing something impossible i'll never know.


First, why would scientists suddenly come to this conclusion without insurmountable evidence? If ALL the scientists in the world accepted it, there would have to be some significant evidence that would be hard to ignore, such as Christ returning and doing a bunch of stuff. Or anything else. Dragons flying out of someone's hindend, I don't know. The point is, you still wouldn't likely believe, would you?

There is a point at which you cease becoming "Independant" by not accepting group-accepted ideas, and where you become "Unreasonable".



but i don't call it a 'preference'. you might call it that. but just because someone wants to know what i believe, and i say evolution, it doesn't mean that is my preference nor does it mean i'm not open minded. a preference would be something you prefer to believe in over another, this is not the case for me believing evolution is right over christianity.


The miracle of the internet allows us to basque in the wonders of Dictionary.com! Wherein we might learn the actual definitions of words we misuse or ignore!

Here's the definition of what a preference is.

You have a preference. So since you were mistaken, I will retract my "Liar Liar pants on fire" accusation.

Preferences also tend to go hand in hand with Bias.



i wonder if the bible was still in ancient hebrew, aramaic, if as many people would still believe? would they even 'bother' going to church, or trying to read the bible, i think someone would, but an awful lot wouldn't. that's why muslim readers in mosques(spelling?) now read in english for the younger muslims.


Literature has always made paradigms of thought more accessible. I could say the same exact thing about any field of science.



i call it trash. you just dress it up saying flawed and inaccurate. and what is a flawed and inaccurate book...a piece of trash perhaps? it's not a question of respect for others, no one today wrote the book so why should they care, i'm having a go at dead authors...sorry if that upsets anyone.


Okay, let us observe the usage of these words. If I were to call you TRASH, that would have a very different meaning than if I was to say you were a very FLAWED being. If I were to say your opinions were INACCURATE at times, that has a very different meaning than if I were to say your words are nothing but TRASH.

I use words with their meaning, sir... I loathe the degredation and wanton self-inflicted decay of word-meaning. Just because the Bible is Flawed and Inaccurate in MY eyes does not mean it is trash in MY eyes. It means that it serves me nothing, but to many millions of people it is like gold or life. While it serves no meaning to me, it has VALUE that I recognize, and that places it far above trash.

Knowledge of any kind isn't trash.



so if you build your life around 'of pandas and people' or 'd is for dinosaur(a book for christian kids showing we lived with dinosaurs)', then i shouldn't say those books are trash, even though they aren't accurate and a fable's of lies? it's my opinion, it might not show respect, but then again i'm not entitled to.


No, you shouldn't say books are trash if they have value. To Invoke Godwin's Law, The Nazi Regime felt that anything not ascribing to the Aryan Nation was trash and thus burned it. The Mother Church decreed that no-one but the church clergy should know how to read during the dark ages, and thus sanctioned a burning of Druidic libraries. Knowledge was lost, vast libraries burned to cinders. Likewise, the greatest library known to ancient man was burned because of the possible heretical texts contained therein.

You may not like a book, but don't equate any knowledge to trash... even if you don't care or believe in that knowledge.



and i care about these dead people because...


Aaah. Someone who doesn't care what went before him. I know where that leads people.



am i in a christian convention and calling them retards...no. and by the way, my attitude to christians on here is pretty much mirrored by some people who don't like evolution, so maybe you could give them a lesson or two.


I do. I dedicate myself to banishing extremism from the hearts of others. Any kind of delusional self-appointed reality is harmful. Also, just because other people do it doesn't make it right, friend. If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you? Don't rail against how there are so many sheeple if you are just going to turn around and say "Well, other people do it so it's okay for me to. Go pick on them."



the truth hurts...


Oh yes. The truth is I have more respect for McDonald's employees than I do for those without a job. Don't insult people who serve you your food, they might spit in it or do something worse. They work hard and for very little.



i read the bible, i thought it was trash, why should i care that people live their lives by this book. you yourself said you think it's flawed and innacurate...you're just using different adjectives, but you're saying the same thing.


It saddens me that people don't even know the meaning of words anymore.

If you don't care what other people think, don't be surprised when you're thoughts don't matter to anyone. Everyone on this good earth has something to offer to you and your soul, or perhaps to your own personal growth if you don't believe in a soul. Nobody is useless, or worthless. We all are living lessons.



saint for god was in front of a mirror in his bathroom...you can find here but not in the holy scripture that apparently has the words of god?


"How to find God in one easy step! 1: Look in the book."

Yeah, I'm sure this works for everyone. After all, everyone is so identical, aren't they?

People are a mishmash of complexities and nuances, stories and personal backgrounds. In the end, any spiritual path is PERSONAL. Some people might find god in their tomato soup, others a mirror, and some might have to read the bloody book to find him.

I look within. Don't assume ONE path is the RIGHT path and dismiss everything because it didn't work for you. What, you expected that doing the same thing as everyone else would help you find god and you were disappointed when he wasn't in a book? Maybe you missed the fact that taking something for a rash doesn't cure your flu.



one, i'm not loud. two, i'm opinionated...big deal, sorry to have an opinion, and refusing to shut up?...o.k i will, i'll leave this discussion closed once i'm done with this post.


1. Loud-MOUTHED. Look it up.
2. I don't mind you having an opinion, so long as you don't mind having to face the repurcussions of your words.
3. I prefer discussing rather than not, no need to leave.




i didn't know it, but i looked it up, from ecclesiastes.


I have always liked that particular paragraph in the Bible.



i'm not delusional, i'm telling you what i think of the bible...but apprently i've got to use better adjectives like flawed and innacurate so i respect other's beliefs.


No. Use whatever is the truth. Just don't be surprised if people don't like you when you call their holy book trash.

I don't think the bible is trash. I think it's flawed and Inaccurate. Again, words have meanings, I use the words for their meanings, not to supplant other words that might SEEM similar.



there you are again, too scared to say the truth, you have to lighten it up by saying 'mistaken' rather than 'lie'.


No, I am not "SCARED" to say the truth. The TRUTH is, sir, that those people in your church were likely told by the pastor, who was told by the church, who lies. People are not responsible for the lies told to them. They were mistaken because they were poorly misinformed by their spiritual leaders.



so as you said 'the church lies'. however, it's neither here nor there that it's a mistake. you've already said 'the church lies'. so why would i become a part of religion that lies?


No, there is no mistake that the CHURCH lies. It is a mistake that the people lower on the totem pole lie, because they are not doing so intentionally for the most part, they are only practicing tradition and what is told to them by the Mother Church.



it doesn't anger me. just makes me see who you are for real. why bother bringing up that you are wiser or spent six years at college other than to brag?


Because it also gives you perspective about me. Six years of college doesn't mean much, especially when I shuffled my major around as many times as I did, undecided on what study I was most in love with.



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