The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by spamandham
In my mind, the question is, at what point does it become a person?

This is a good question .

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by sweetgal2004
Because, I could kill myself tomorrow and the bible says I will go to HELL for commiting suicide.

No it doesn't.

Well, let's see what it does say. "You shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13). Now, there's issue as to whether is says "murder" or "kill". The difference being that murder means an intentional pre-meditated act. I'd rather go with "kill" cause it makes things easy to understand. Anyhow, I think that rule would apply to ourselves as well in suicide. Now, we move to John 15:13 where Jesus says "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends". *DING!* That's the difference between just offing yourself pointlessly in a bout of depression as opposed to 'taking the hit' for someone else in order to save them from death.

One of the worst issues out there. Everyone minding someone else's business. "Christians" being judgemental of others and actions without knowing the details involved. I'm sure every so called "Christian" would adopt one of these? They add up to millions a year. Are all willing to pay more taxes to keep them fed?

I don't condone this issue. However, I have loved two women in my lifetime. Both became pregnant out of wedlock(not by me). One had an abortion and one did not. I continue to see the difference in the results daily.

"Thou shalt not kill"? If used in the context that means no bug squashing, tree cutting, etc. They are all life.

Abortion is an issue left between the woman and GOD. Only he knows what has happened, her reasons, etc. NO ONE ELSE DOES!!!!! True Christians realize this. It is not something for the public arena, and not something to throw stones at.

Make it illegal? Oh yea, the rich continue to get one quietly and safely while the rest go to a room off of a dark alley where a "Dr" with a coke bottle and coat hanger awaits.

"Thou shalt not kill"? If used in the context that means no bug squashing, tree cutting, etc. They are all life.

plants are not alive according to Genesis. and bugs do not have the breath of life accoring to genesis in the section of noahs flood. it also says that man can hunt animal for meat. so the only thing left is humans, dont kill humans. the bible says "thou art with child" (whenever talking about pregnancy) meaning that it is a person. my opinion, I think its wrong no matter how the baby got there, the baby should get a chance at life, its not its fault it was brought into the world.

if the child is unwanted, give it up for adoption. it does not cost money to give it up. it may cost money if you do it certain ways. but if you know someone who your child can be safe with, it doesnt cost that much.

if the child is a financial burden. well, every child that I know of is one as well. there is no kid out there that doesnt cost money to keep alive.

if the child is from rape or incest. you kill the rapest and not the baby. maybe we should start killing rapists, in public. public execution.

there are many ways to solve this problem. I dont think the woman should have the right to kill a baby even before its born. its a human.

thats just my opinion.


EC

how in the world do you tell your child his/her dad is a rapist, that raped mummy and you were the result. that's probably worse than finding out you're adopted. children who are adopted don't always have fun childhoods as they move from foster parent to foster parent, never settling down, never making long friendships.

the definition of a person would not be straight after fertilization has taken place, they would be called cells and nothing more. they don't feel pain, there's no awareness etc, so it cannot be thought of as a person, hence it would not fall under 'shalt not kill', just as bugs and trees do not.

you said genesis tells us we can kill bugs because they don't breathe like humans...nor do a newly fertilized egg. hence, it should be o.k to abort it at this stage.

I agree with everything you said in your last post except for...

Originally posted by Evolution Cruncher
if the child is from rape or incest. you kill the rapest and not the baby. maybe we should start killing rapists, in public. public execution.

...because of what someone said once, which was, "You have heard it said 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy'. But I tell you 'Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." How then is it possible to love AND kill someone? Also, if they are a rapist, living in sin, then would not this death sentence send them to Hell without an opportunity for redemption? The exercise I have is this: Remember the day before you were a Christian, then think about what would've happened to you if you had died that day.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
how in the world do you tell your child his/her dad is a rapist, that raped mummy and you were the result. that's probably worse than finding out you're adopted. children who are adopted don't always have fun childhoods as they move from foster parent to foster parent, never settling down, never making long friendships.

Who said life was going to be easy? It certainly wasn't/isn't for me. We will all go through our horrors in life, if we're typical, but what is most important is how we respond to those things. Only by responding in a positive, constructive way can a person acheive growth.

I'm still disgusted that people are STILL using the old "But why punnish the baby for the crime of the father?" It's not about that at all.. it's about a woman wanting to get his semen out of her.. the resulting pregnacy is a continuation of that violation. A woman aborting a rape pregnacy would be just wanting 'him' 'out'.. why is this less likely to be a motivation to some than "punnishing the baby"? Oh thats right.. if the motivation is VENGENCE then she's not completly sinless after all and can 'choose' to be selfless [the moral of the story] and everyone can live happily ever after in the comfort of knowing that god works in mysterious ways.

Originally posted by saint4God
Who said life was going to be easy? It certainly wasn't/isn't for me.

no matter how tough you think you've got it, someone else has always got it tougher. just because life isn't going to be easy is no reason to abort a child, yet if you're thinking about the quality of life for the child then there are certain standards which are acceptable and some which are not. for example a baby born in to extreme poverty with aids. if the baby doesn't die from starvation or dehydration, it will eventually die from aids...what sort of life is that? i know its not up to me who says should live and die, yet in some cases i think it's in the soon-to-be child's interest that it is aborted.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
If you did it as a sacrifice to yourself so that you could forgive the sins of third parties, then would it be an act of love?

Yes. I'll explain. If I were in a concentration camp and a soldier came to me and said, "Your friend here committed a crime by speaking out against our government. Either s/he dies or you must cut of your hand." My election would be to have my hand cut off. That would be an act of love.

I can't help but notice you but god in the role of the concentration camp soldier in this analogy, but regardless. The analogy fails because god plays the role of the one demanding the sacrifice, as well as the role of the one being sacrificed, as well as the one who made the rules, as well as the one enforcing the rules, while simultaneously being accountable to nothing. If he wanted to forgive us, he could simply do it. Better yet, he could simply have not held us accountable in the first place. It's all rediculous, and I suspect deep inside you recognize how silly it is.

Originally posted by saint4God
Well, let's see what it does say. "You shall not kill" (Exodus 20:13). Now, there's issue as to whether is says "murder" or "kill". The difference being that murder means an intentional pre-meditated act.

The proper translation is 'murder', there's no question about that. Only KJV inerrantists will bicker that point (yet most of them say killing in self defense, or war, or death penalty etc are ok, sigh).

Suicide isn't murder, and even if you try to twist it to mean that, no-where does it say you will go to hell for doing it. Assume a "saved" individual, has a moment of desparation, and offs himself. Where does the Bible say this person is going to hell?

(there are numerous examples of suicide in the OT, and not once is any condemnation made about the act).

Further, since Jesus failed to defend himself, he committed suicide-by-cop.

if the child is unwanted, give it up for adoption. it does not cost money to give it up. it may cost money if you do it certain ways. but if you know someone who your child can be safe with, it doesnt cost that much

So have you run down to the local abortion clinic and stated that you would adopt said child? I thought not.

Again the point is missed. NO ONE BUT GOD knows what is going on in mom's mind and the reasons for doing so.

I guess I will have to know discredit the Bible. Yes, plants are living breathing things just like bugs. Trees for instance BREATHE IN carbon dioxide and breathe out oxygen. Also one can put a bug up against a mirror and I can guarandamn bet ya there is breath. Who is teaching you such ilk? Also proven that plants respond to love!!! Probably more alive than many humans for many don't respond to anything except a closed mind.

The Bible is a great tool for many things. However, to ignore when the Bible is wrong is complete tomfoolery and is one reason why people walk around this planet in their tormented hell scared to do anything, reason, or whatever in fear of upsetting GOD. I know many whose case is this. That is NOT what the Bible teaches. That is what man preaches.


"Beware the teachings of man, and beware the teachings of the "Church".

Originally posted by spamandham
I can't help but notice you but god in the role of the concentration camp soldier in this analogy, but regardless.

I'm afraid you're looking at the analogy at the reverse angle. The soldier is us and our insistence to a bastardized rule of law. God sacrificed His "hand" (Jesus, His son) to save His friends (us, His children). Sorry if the analogy threw you, I'll try to be more literal in my discussions with you.

Originally posted by spamandham
The analogy fails because god plays the role of the one demanding the sacrifice, as well as the role of the one being sacrificed, as well as the one who made the rules, as well as the one enforcing the rules, while simultaneously being accountable to nothing.

Again getting tangled in the analogy. Sorry it wasn't more clear. Perhaps someone else can describe more effectively. It's a relationship, not a dictatorship. He makes promises (covenants) with us. They stand as long as we keep them. WE break the covenants, not God.

Originally posted by spamandham
If he wanted to forgive us, he could simply do it.

And then what? We'd go out and screw Him over again. We've got a history of it ya know. It's recorded in the Old Testament and persists today.

Originally posted by spamandham
Better yet, he could simply have not held us accountable in the first place.

Free to go against Him and make ourselves gods...doesn't sound like a good plan. Mankind's ego is inflated as is.

Originally posted by spamandham
It's all rediculous, and I suspect deep inside you recognize how silly it is.

Deep down it took a lot of thinking, study and discussion to come to a full understanding. Deep down I suspect you've got a beef with God else you wouldn't be bothering with any of this.


[edit on 11-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
"Beware the teachings of man, and beware the teachings of the "Church".

My church tells me to read the Bible on my own. Should I beware of this?

Originally posted by saint4God
It's a relationship, not a dictatorship.

It's neither. You can't have a relationship with an imaginary friend, nor can said friend be your master. Ultimately, you are just talking to yourself, deluded into thinking there's more to it to that because a collection of old books says so.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
If he wanted to forgive us, he could simply do it.

And then what? We'd go out and screw Him over again. We've got a history of it ya know. It's recorded in the Old Testament and persists today.

Yet you claim to be forgiven, and you continue to "screw him over" (sin), do you not? The whole sacrifice business is superfluous. You could be justified by faith and forgiven even without it, and you could be justified by grace if god wanted. Even more, he could simply quit making people with a "sin nature". Repeating the party line is not going to convince me that any of it makes any sense. It didn't even make sense when I was a Christian, but I didn't require it to make sense back then.

Originally posted by saint4God
Free to go against Him and make ourselves gods...doesn't sound like a good plan. Mankind's ego is inflated as is.

Why is this a bad idea? I thought god was self sufficient. What difference does it make to him if we put ourselves before him? For god to have any needs or wants whatsoever implies he is not self sufficient. If he made creation to share his glory with others, then it should not matter to him whether that creation appreciates what he did, or loves him in return, or worships him.

Originally posted by saint4God
Deep down it took a lot of thinking, study and discussion to come to a full understanding. Deep down I suspect you've got a beef with God else you wouldn't be bothering with any of this.

I don't have a beef with fictional entities, I have a beef with the authoritarian theocratic mindset Christianity promulgates. That's what this thread is all about in my view.

i cant really tell anyone how to view the belief in christ, but i can describe how i look at it.
i dont realate believing in anything with gov. control. i believe what i want to believe and do what i want to do, because that is how i was born. from what i know the spread of christianity(or the belief that jesus was the son of God) wasnt initially spread through politics or gov. control, it was spread by a few people, apostle paul being one, and it wasnt forced on anyone through any propaganda untill after a few hundred years or so, when the roman empire decided to manipulate this belief for its own power. not to offend catholics but catholicism, i believe is gov. control through religioun. from that stems the right wing/left wing non-sense that everyones all pissed off about.
anyway, i personally can ignore what the gov. says.

My church tells me to read the Bible on my own. Should I beware of this?

Well Saint in your own way you should. Your church and mine are two different things. However, on the same wave length. From reading and "speaking" to each other my understanding is that your church is a church. Your church teaches what Jesus taught. Many, many do not. That is where the problem arises.

All too often I see the "church" speak of "the truth". Yet, when I hear their version of "the truth" it is nowhere near what Jesus taught. That is the reason for my saying.

The abortion thing is one of my "pet peeves". Too many sit in self righteous indignation of others when they have no idea what mom is going thru or will have to go thru for the rest of her eternal life. Hopefully, when facing Jesus he will have an understanding of her decision.

Like I said I have love two in my life and both became pregnant out of wedlock and I see the results. Both middle class girls at the time. One-my wife had an abortion the day we had our first date. She is now a good, proud mother. The other didn't. She raised her son by herself, and men would run when confronted with the idea that there would be "instant family." She has led a life full of disappointment and heartache. I still love her just as I love my wife. I have watched from a distance and felt her pain.

[edit on 12-8-2005 by madmanacrosswater]

Hey yo EC,

I agree with everything you said in your last post except for...

quote: Originally posted by Evolution Cruncher
if the child is from rape or incest. you kill the rapest and not the baby. maybe we should start killing rapists, in public. public execution.


...because of what someone said once, which was, "You have heard it said 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy'. But I tell you 'Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." How then is it possible to love AND kill someone? Also, if they are a rapist, living in sin, then would not this death sentence send them to Hell without an opportunity for redemption? The exercise I have is this: Remember the day before you were a Christian, then think about what would've happened to you if you had died that day.

well my point was, you shouldnt kill the baby. but the rapist should be punished in some way, maybe a lifetime sentence behind bars. and even if the rapist were executed in public, he would still have time to redeem himself unto God. God always has his ears open to everyone. but my point was not to kill the baby no matter how it was conceived or why its not wanted.
thats just my opinion. its not the babies fault. let it live. people who vote pro choice are always the ones that have already been born. so its a little easier to vote for that. I am pro life. you did have a point though on "love your neighbor and love your enemies"
I guess its kinda hard to figure out where to draw the line.


EC

I notice you didn't even mention the rape victim.. you really think punnishing the rapist is going to make her feel better about carrying, bearing and raising his spawn?

:shk:
This subject makes me sick. Would anyone like to know what brand of tampons I use? I need your approval..

well my point was, you shouldnt kill the baby. but the rapist should be punished in some way, maybe a lifetime sentence behind bars.

Is this not what you are sentencing the mother to? A lifetime sentence of taking care of a child unwantedly conceived?

Such a narrow view. Give one the chance of life. Condemn the other to a life of servitude on something unwanted, unplanned, and brutally conceived?

OF course, the question then becomes how much is one willing to help with the raising of said child thru increased taxes, etc? Cmon "Daddy Warbucks" cough it up.

Your view would change drastically if it involved you or your wife? I'm sure you would want her to have the child and you would be more than willing to take care of such?

Be honest my friend and quit living in utopia. We blew that opportunity years ago.