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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
What about miraculous healings? First, what would you consider a miraculous healing (personally, I haven't heard of limb regeneration, unless you count teeth as limbs), and second, what kind of evidence would you need of one having taken place?

As I said earlier.. I've experienced many 'paranormal' things.. but did not conclude god [which is probably why they were completely ignored even though a brief on them was requested]. I just figure that just because I do not understand what causes things like ESP, premintions, hauntings and hands on healing etc.. it does not mean there are not natural explanations for them [which might take science another 100 years to find] that have nothing to do with an omnipotent being. If I were someone else however [judgeing by conversion stories] there's a big chance I may have converted myself. Everyone has their limits I guess.


St4god,
I just noticed you accusing me of trying to 'tear god down'. I was actually just defending my position.. even going as far as briefing you on some very personal experiences. I then had three or four christians entering the thread systematically taking turns in trying to tear me down and convert me like some holy duty.. patronising me, peppering me with bible quotes and informing me that my journey must've been lacking because I didn't find god [with no respect to all it entailed]. My opinions have been sincere and I've been sharing them because they've been asked for.. not because I'm motivated by spite for your god.

[edit on 29-7-2005 by riley]




posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 05:20 PM
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riley, with that mentality, you take out any chance of God "proving" himself to you. Moses splitting the Red Sea, if you were a first hand witness, could be dismissed as a non-miracle by that mentality by saying, "it was a natural phenomena that we just don't understand yet." If you witnessed Jesus’ resurrection, you could dismiss it the same way. There is nothing that could be shown to you that would convince you something miraculous happened. You could be driving in your car with your mom as a young lad when the gas tank of the truck in front of you breaks off and heads straight for your windshield, surely to kill you both. At the same time, your father, miles away, working, suddenly breaks out into prayer, not understanding why he needs to pray, just knowing he must pray, as the gas tank takes a right angle turn in mid flight and flies off the side of the road, injuring no one. That could be dismissed as something natural that hasn’t been explained or understood as well. There is no room for God with that mentality.



posted on Jul, 29 2005 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
riley, with that mentality, you take out any chance of God "proving" himself to you.

I beg your pardon? With that mentality- we'd still be treating mental illness is demon possesion and we'd never have built planes [flying is the devils work]. I'm sorry I didn't 'find god' at the end of my journey.. to me it would be like trying to force myself to believe in Santa clause. The way people have been speaking to me it is like they are assuming I'm deliberately not believing just to be rebelious.. I cannot help the way I percieve the world.. and I cannot suddenly change and attribute all the mysteries in life to some guy in the sky. That just seems overly simplistic and fanciful to me.

[edit on 29-7-2005 by riley]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by junglejake
What about miraculous healings? First, what would you consider a miraculous healing (personally, I haven't heard of limb regeneration, unless you count teeth as limbs), and second, what kind of evidence would you need of one having taken place?


A miraculous healing would be one in which there is a strong correlation between prayer and the healing, and the nature of the healing would have to be such that no natural explanation is reasonable, and the healing would have to be instantaneous and complete with no lingering medical issues, and the nature of it would have to be unique to the deity in question. I picked the regrowth of a limb precisely because it fits such a bill. I'm not saying it's the only thing that does, but to my knowledge, there is not a single case of spontaneous limb regrowth in humans.

The proof that would be required to prove it had actually happened would have to be substantial, such that it could not realistically be a hoax or urban legend, or magician's trick. For example, a history of the individual and how they had lost their limb and numerous witnesses and medical records that pre-date the healing, and medical exams afterward as well, and probably video recording of the event.


Originally posted by junglejake
What about divine intervention? Cases where the laws of physics seem to be suspended in answer to prayer. What kind of evidence would you need for something like that? Would personal accounts be sufficient, or would you need the extremely unlikely event to be even more unlikely by being videotaped?


A miracle is not a random occurrance. It's defined as the direct intervention of the supernatural. If such miracles actually happen, there's no statistical reason they can't be captured. It's up to the supernatural being whether or not that being wants it recorded in a credible way or not. So far, if these things do happen, the being(s) don't seem to want them recorded in credible ways.


Originally posted by junglejake
Then there are also the everyday miracles which could be attributed to chance, but the coincidences mount up to the point where, though it could be chance, the likelihood of that event happening is next to nil. Would you consider something along those lines to be a miracle,


No, because although the odds of any particular such event happening might be extremely small, the number of possible such events is unbounded, meaning that some events of that nature will happen. An extremely unlikely event would have to happen multiple times and be strongly correlated with prayer (or the like) before it would be reasonable to conclude supernatural intervention.


Originally posted by junglejake
What about unexplainable events, such as a massive joy attack hitting everyone and anyone who goes to a revival that goes on for years in a city, to the point where hotel workers come to expect to have to step over people just laughing in the hallways, restaurant workers don't even notice anymore that people throughout their restaurant near where the revival is taking place seem to all be bobbing their heads in unison, though they are separated by partitions, don't necessarily know each other, etc?


The details and how well documented the inexplicable parts are (such as bobbing in unison where the implication is that there is no coordinating mechanism nor any visual or audible mechanism by which this could be synchronized) would be relevant in analyzing such a case.


Originally posted by junglejake
So I guess the question is, what sources would be allowed to get you to believe something actually happened, and what do you constitute as a miracle?


It would have to be traceable, repeatable, purposeful (in response to prayer or the like), unique to a given deity, and not reasonably attributable to random outcomes or natural causes. The bar is very high, but not insurmountable. It would be trivially easy to achieve for an omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent being that wanted to do it.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 07:04 AM
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I think I can speak for everyone who may be involved when I say that nobody is trying to say your journey is incomplete ...but rather... your research is incomplete. At some point, you either went down a side track.

There is always the possibility we are completely wrong...and you saw and know of Gods awesomeness...and rejected it. But that is not what your saying so we must assume the other



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 07:56 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
I think I can speak for everyone who may be involved when I say that nobody is trying to say your journey is incomplete ...


This coming from someone who's entire research suite consists of a single book?



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 08:24 AM
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Originally posted by riley
Care to elaborate and offer proof that you are a miracle?


I'd like to, but it wouldn't make a difference. I could say I traveled to pluto and back and the argument would come back that though I say it, it doesn't mean it's true
.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
I think I can speak for everyone who may be involved when I say that nobody is trying to say your journey is incomplete

Indeed they did. I'm not going to flick through the pages to quote them to prove you wrong.. I have read the posts for myself thanks Jake and don't need help understanding them.

...but rather... your research is incomplete. At some point, you either went down a side track.

Oh I see.. what a nice way to say that I'm spiritually ignorant.. oh and 'sidetracked' that means 'missled'.. am I right? Who are you to make that judgement on me? Why is it you think you are more of an authority on sprituality than I am? No doubt all your 'research' is based on what the bible says.. guess what.. I've read it extensively too.. but I have had more knowledge available to me than you have [not that you would respect that] ..aside from the other paranormal I have mentioned.. have you EVER had an outerbody experience? Doubtful. You can quote an archaic earthbound book all you want but the fact is until you've actually had an OBE you are ignorant to that aspect of existence and the knowledge it grants.

My research on spirituality is lacking? Unlike you I have actually experienced what it is like to actually be a spirit.


There is always the possibility we are completely wrong...and you saw and know of Gods awesomeness...and rejected it.

It would be nice if you actually took the time to read my posts so I wouldn't have to repeat myself. Rejected it? I 'saw the light' and actually looked beyond it.. I was not blinded by it. There is more to existence than god.. and 'god' is not what you think it is. If you knew what god was.. you would discover that it is not relevent and not the point. God is merely the cloud and we are the rain. I do not believe in your concept of 'god' because it does not exist.. it is only what humanity has projected onto it.

But that is not what your saying so we must assume the other

I'm guessing by 'other' [without elaboration] you mean satan right?
You certainly have a talent for the predictable Jake.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by riley]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
Saint says he was a skeptic, and I'll take his word for it, but he has also given other clues into his state of his mind at the time; he was under great existential stress and his skepticsm was on the verge of "breaking" him.


Heh. See what I mean?



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 08:38 AM
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Indeed they did.

I am one of 'they' and i know my own words.




Oh I see..

No. You dont.
Its about finding God.




My research on spirituality is lacking? Unlike you I have actually experienced what it is like to actually be a spirit.

interesting. I will find out too one day. We all will.




quote: There is always the possibility we are completely wrong...and you saw and know of Gods awesomeness...and rejected it.
It would be nice if you actually took the time to read my posts so I wouldn't have to repeat myself. Rejected it? I 'saw the light' and actually looked beyond it.. I was not blinded by it. There is more to existence than god.. and 'god' is not what you think it is. If you knew what god was.. you would discover that it is not relevent and not the point. God is merely the cloud and we are the rain. I do not believe in your concept of 'god' because it does not exist.. it is only what humanity has projected onto it.


It was this very thing that caused me to write the last post which you completely misunderstood




I'm guessing by 'other' [without elaboration] you mean satan right? You certainly have a talent for the predictable Jake.

Reading comprehension.
Yep.

Go back and read again, and stop trying to put yourself inside a fortress. I showed two likely paths and then said the word 'other' in referring to a path.
Thats all.

I see now that it appears to be a side track. You saw something and then instead of advancing toward it, you veered away after a faulty conclusion.
Go back and look again. You will see what i mean



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by riley
St4god,
I just noticed you accusing me of trying to 'tear god down'.


Yeah, that I did. You did say to the effect of - after 40 years of research God is bunk. Did I read this wrong?


Originally posted by riley
I was actually just defending my position..


Ah, but you weren't all defence which is why I spoke up. I would not have said anything if you started with "Here's what I know..."


Originally posted by riley
even going as far as briefing you on some very personal experiences.


I appreciate that. I know it may not be easy to believe, but I have passed out a few times in my life and remember each time. It is a bizarre experience to remember what happened when one is unconcious. Though I'm sure it'll be denied, I do feel I can relate through some of the similarities.


Originally posted by riley
I then had three or four christians entering the thread systematically taking turns in trying to tear me down and convert me like some holy duty..


Oh yes, we WILL converted you.
It'd be arrogant and naive for any person to think they can convert anyone. You came here to a thread called "The Absolute Power of Christianity" and are now concerned about Christians spreading the good news about God and helping people find him? *punches time-clock card*


Originally posted by riley
patronising me, peppering me with bible quotes and informing me that my journey must've been lacking because I didn't find god [with no respect to all it entailed]. My opinions have been sincere and I've been sharing them because they've been asked for.. not because I'm motivated by spite for your god.


It looks to me that yes, they are sincere but yes, there is some spite for God. That's the question I had. Where did that come from? Else you would not be having pictures of Christians yelling "Convert or die!" or other such malicious acts and intentions.



[edit on 30-7-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
Saint says he was a skeptic, and I'll take his word for it, but he has also given other clues into his state of his mind at the time; he was under great existential stress and his skepticsm was on the verge of "breaking" him.


Heh. See what I mean?


What do you expect? As best I can see, you have no valid reason for rejecting the natural explanations. You have previously said something to the effect of "I'm perfectly sane". But that doesn't answer the contention. Perfectly sane people have the types of experiences you had. Such visions exist in people from all cultures, and guess what? The visions are always in agreement with predominant cultural norms.

Since you claim you are a skeptic, what is your basis of dismissing natural explanations?



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by riley
St4god,
I just noticed you accusing me of trying to 'tear god down'.

Yeah, that I did. You did say to the effect of - after 40 years of research God is bunk. Did I read this wrong?

Firstly.. I didn't say it.. [I think I agreed in jest] and there is no tearing down something that does not exist.. suggesting I was implies that I secretly believe it does exist.. which is in essense not only calling me a liar but vindictive. If I wanted to 'fight god' I'd be worshiping lucifer.


Originally posted by riley
I was actually just defending my position..

Ah, but you weren't all defence which is why I spoke up. I would not have said anything if you started with "Here's what I know..."

Yes it is what I know.. I wasn't aware I wasn't aloud to share it? This thread is about the power of christianity.. not it's glory. Of course it seems all beliefs that to not conform to your own are an attack on them [which meant I had to defend myself against a counter attack]. Seems extremily self indulgent to me.. my disbelief is not to spite you Saint.


Originally posted by riley
even going as far as briefing you on some very personal experiences.

I appreciate that. I know it may not be easy to believe, but I have passed out a few times in my life and remember each time. It is a bizarre experience to remember what happened when one is unconcious. Though I'm sure it'll be denied, I do feel I can relate through some of the similarities.

I was not unconcious in either of my OBEs.. [or other experiences] I was very awake and lucid. You may be able to relate to some of my experiences.. but as I am not you I am not sure to what extent. I personally remember everything about all of them.


Originally posted by riley
I then had three or four christians entering the thread systematically taking turns in trying to tear me down and convert me like some holy duty..

Oh yes, we WILL converted you.
It'd be arrogant and naive for any person to think they can convert anyone. *punches time-clock card*

Read through the pages [with some objectivity].. people completely dismissed my points of views and repetively kept quoting bible at me after I'd asked them not to. I had told them I had read it and I found it incredibly rude that they did not respect my request. The bible does not carry any weight with me in regard to my disbelief. I am not suddenly going to go to church after a few random out of context quotes so I fail to see the point in it other than to antagonise [which worked]. I have probably said "I do not believe in god." about ten times now.. apparently people can't read.

It looks to me that yes, they are sincere but yes, there is some spite for God.

It's just irritation that some christians do not respect the opinions of non chistians and act above them.. [immediately infers the other party is inferior] even now I am irritated as AGAIN you've said I'm spiting god. There is nothing to spite; I do not believe in god.

That's the question I had. Where did that come from? Else you would not be having pictures of Christians yelling "Convert or die!" or other such malicious acts and intentions.

I admit I do have contempt for religion [not exclusively christianity] for the horrors it has inflicted on mankind.. that is not god. I get enraged when the world gets turned upside down when some morons blow themselves up for the OT god.. they are trying to bring about their own judgement day and will foresake all hope of peace and unity for it. I have no problem with other people believing in god.. so long as they respect the diversity of spirituality and don't impose their beliefs on other people, dismiss their beliefs or try denograte them till they disapear. I resent being told I am WRONG and will go to hell [as it's a place for immoral people] for not believing in god.. have I directly told you you are wrong? No. I have only said I do not believe in god.. you have not afforded me the same respect.. even going as far as 'informing' me where I went wrong in my spirtual journey and how I mustn't have walked it properly because I didn't find god. Have I speculated on your own personal journey? No. That would be like my talking about what you did wrong in your last long term relationship despite not having the slightest clue about your life or if you've even had one.
I would not tell you your god does not exist for you.. I believe your interpritation of existence/truth is just vastly different than my own.

I stated my opinion and suddenly the crusades started up again. That is the power of christianity. This thread is a prime example.. I declared myself an atheist and was condemned for it.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by riley]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 10:01 AM
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Riley I have voted you for Way Above because I agree with your post. There is nothing that you nor I can say.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997


I'm guessing by 'other' [without elaboration] you mean satan right? You certainly have a talent for the predictable Jake.

Reading comprehension.
Yep.

I always thought 'judge lest ye be judged' was part of being christian. Satan is meant to be 'evil'.. aligning me with it infers that I am evil. You are too ignorant of my personal charactor and morality to make that kind of judgement.


Go back and read again, and stop trying to put yourself inside a fortress. I showed two likely paths and then said the word 'other' in referring to a path.
Thats all.

I see now that it appears to be a side track. You saw something and then instead of advancing toward it, you veered away after a faulty conclusion.
Go back and look again. You will see what i mean

Jake.. what makes you more of a spiritual authority? Have you experienced all the things I've mentioned.. or have you only read the bible?



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 10:11 AM
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I know the feeling I have always been second best in the house I live in it is true as Jesus said a prophet is without honor in his own home I have even tried to broadcast Christian veiws and ways to change this world.I
am very powerful in the arts of many things such as psionics remember It has no religion I would not sacrifice my faith for anything.Just got out of fighting a six year battle with some of the most evil and powerful psychics around. You know I The Lord the glory becausew even when the universe began God made the angelic body out of himself I give him all the glory the reason I'm still in the race is him.So if you whoever reads this doesn't share The faiththen don't pursue me as thne other ones did and even tried to control me because I send the gospel out and justa as I tolerate others veiws and different veiws then give me the same the same respect if not then end up like they did.It's not a challenge but a warning thanks fort your time sincerely James Martin



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by I See You
Riley I have voted you for Way Above because I agree with your post. There is nothing that you nor I can say.

Thankyou. This thread is a disturbing reflection of what is happening in the real world.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 10:46 AM
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I couldn't agree more. Watch the news every night and it's all there to see yet most don't see it because they have their blinders on. It's unforunate.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by riley
Firstly.. I didn't say it.. [I think I agreed in jest]


Ah. I didn't see any indication of jest, probably because it's difficult to discern tone and humor sometimes in text.


Originally posted by riley
and there is no tearing down something that does not exist..


There's that 'knowledge' or 'proof' that He doesn't exist again
. My knowledge and proof says otherwise.


Originally posted by riley
suggesting I was implies that I secretly believe it does exist.. which is in essense not only calling me a liar but vindictive.


. I do not believe you are a liar nor vindictive.


Originally posted by riley
If I wanted to 'fight god' I'd be worshiping lucifer.


A person need not worship the enemy to fight God. I'm not saying you're fighting God, I'm saying you're denying God...now back to the loop where you say you cannot deny what doesn't exist.


Originally posted by riley
Yes it is what I know.. I wasn't aware I wasn't aloud to share it?


Certainly share what you know.


Originally posted by riley
This thread is about the power of christianity.. not it's glory. Of course it seems all beliefs that to not conform to your own are an attack on them [which meant I had to defend myself against a counter attack]. Seems extremily self indulgent to me..


How is "give glory to God" an attack or self-indulgent? The power of Christianity is in God and His son. We cannot talk about the power without God and Christ because there is none.


Originally sted by riley
my disbelief is not to spite you Saint.


I believe that and hope you can call me friend no matter what disagreements we may have on any thread.


Originally posted by riley
I was not unconcious in either of my OBEs.. [or other experiences] I was very awake and lucid. You may be able to relate to some of my experiences.. but as I am not you I am not sure to what extent. I personally remember everything about all of them.


The difference was in conciousness, yes. You were concious, I wasn't, but here's what I mean by relating. I remember each time clearly as well. In one, I was floating in a void of nothingness, where I could physically see different voices, thoughts, ideas and scenes. I was able to drift towards whichever I desired. To entertain them so to speak. It was my mothers voice that I saw (hard to describe other than to say the words represented a form of scene of her) so I'd drifted towards it. It was then that I woke up. I've had dreams/visions where I was concious as well. That's even harder to explain but I think you'd be able to relate better than most on that topic.


Originally posted by riley
Read through the pages [with some objectivity].. people completely dismissed my points of views and repetively kept quoting bible at me after I'd asked them not to.


That's like asking a doctor not to heal people when they see them injured. I know you don't see yourself in need of help, but we're on a Christian titled thread, thus are very comfortable talking about all God can do for a person and quoting the medical journal.


Originally posted by riley
I had told them I had read it and I found it incredibly rude that they did not respect my request. The bible does not carry any weight with me in regard to my disbelief.


Welcome to this thread. If it were titled "Modern Medicine" then I think you may have a case saying Christianity isn't a practical physical fit.


Originally posted by riley
I am not suddenly going to go to church after a few random out of context quotes so I fail to see the point in it other than to antagonise [which worked]. I have probably said "I do not believe in god." about ten times now.. apparently people can't read.


I hear you loud and clear. I don't expect you to go to church. My only objective is to provide information about God, how He works and how to find Him. Want the information? Take it. Don't want the information? Leave it be. My hope though is that the possibility is carefully considered.


Originally posted by riley
It's just irritation that some christians do not respect the opinions of non chistians and act above them.. [immediately infers the other party is inferior]


Absolutely agreed.


Originally posted by riley
even now I am irritated as AGAIN you've said I'm spiting god. There is nothing to spite; I do not believe in god.


See above loop mentioned above. By saying there's nothing to spite, you are spiting.


Originally posted by riley
I admit I do have contempt for religion [not exclusively christianity] for the horrors it has inflicted on mankind.. that is not god. I get enraged when the world gets turned upside down when some morons blow themselves up for the OT god.. they are trying to bring about their own judgement day and will foresake all hope of peace and unity for it.


I agreed it's terrible when people use God as the excuse for their selfish motivations. If it's any comfort, they'll be held accountable for it.


Originally posted by riley
I have no problem with other people believing in god..


But you have a problem with me doing that here. And that's all I'm doing.


Originally posted by riley
so long as they respect the diversity of spirituality and don't impose their beliefs on other people, dismiss their beliefs or try denograte them till they disapear.


Thread title. We're not on the thread titled, "What do you believe in?"


Originally posted by riley
I resent being told I am WRONG and will go to hell [as it's a place for immoral people] for not believing in god..


Why? (I have not said this to you by the way)


Originally posted by riley
have I directly told you you are wrong? No.


Not directly no. Indirectly yes. You've said God does not exist, negating my proof positive that He does.


Originally posted by riley
I have only said I do not believe in god..


You said a whole lot more than that else we would not be having this conversation. I'm not going to quote, it's all here on the thread.


Originally posted by riley
you have not afforded me the same respect..


I disagree.


Originally posted by riley
even going as far as 'informing' me where I went wrong in my spirtual journey and how I mustn't have walked it properly because I didn't find god.


Again, trying to help. Don't want it, don't take it.


Originally posted by riley
Have I speculated on your own personal journey? No.


Ah, but you have and already discussed above.


Originally posted by riley
That would be like my talking about what you did wrong in your last long term relationship despite not having the slightest clue about your life or if you've even had one.


You did not say where I went wrong, just that I went wrong by believing God exists.


Originally posted by riley
I would not tell you your god does not exist for you..


But you did.


Originally posted by riley
I believe your interpritation of existence/truth is just vastly different than my own.


That's the first open statement I've heard so far. I think it's fair whether I agree with it or not.


Originally posted by riley
I stated my opinion and suddenly the crusades started up again. That is the power of christianity. This thread is a prime example.. I declared myself an atheist and was condemned for it.


Why are you here riley? Why did you come to this thread called "The Absloute Power of Christianity!"?

[edit on 30-7-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 11:40 AM
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The fact is that the attempt to silence the truth of christianity is based on a generalized hate for those who procure and bear the message ....... Prodistant Anglo_Saxons are the last vestage of the message of the truth ...... and equaly the most hated for thier dominance in global affairs..... it all has its roots in the crusades.



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