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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Perhaps I should have explained the post better.

Thankyou.

Do you have any control over the hour of your death? All will die one day. Unless you take matters into your own hands, you do not know when or how. Zero steering ability.

Thats called mortality. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with this.

The illusion is that you have control now, when you really dont.

Control over what?

There is a fork in the road ahead and you pick a path. They end up leading to the other side of death...we will all be on the other side of death....

All roads lead to physical death.. again I'm not sure what point you are making.

When you get to the other side of death of the flesh...into your unknown...then what?

Then what?

As I said earlier.. I've already had two outer body experiences so being 'outside' the flesh is not unknown territory for me. This only confirmed to me that energy cannot die it only transfroms. The only real concern I have with death is firstly, the death of others and secondly; not being able to achieve all the things I want before I die.




posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by riley
AGAIN 'god' is not relevent to me.. perhaps when your journey includes holding up humanity [or 'God's creation'] as a priority over god- you might understand my position.


"Your perversity is as though the potter were taken to be the clay: As though what is made should say of its maker, "He made me not!" Or the vessel should say of the potter, "He does not understand." ISAIAH 29:16

So, the question is, riley, how can you raise the creation above He that created it.?


.. what does it matter if I believe in it? Jesus was meant to be for everyone wasn't he? I'm a good person already [possibly not so much when I'm forced to repeat myself] so why fix what aint broke?


Yes, Jesus, died for all men ( and women ), but Jesus, Himself, made it clear that there is more than just believing that He existed; more than just being a good person:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24)

He says that you must believe in the One Who sent Him; who is that, but God, The Father.?

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (Romans 3:10)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23)
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

Scripture, and Jesus, Himself, pointed out that the natural state of man is
sinfullness and unrighteousness. So, unless we accept Christ's sacrifice and death as substitution for our own, we are still in sin, we are still unrighteous.

John 3:1-8 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

I know that you don't like being preached to, or at, but what I am trying to do is just show you that you are overlooking a great deal of information, in your decision making about your eternal destiny. If you have any belief in life after death at all, then, doesn't it make sense to be sure where you are going to spend that life.? Part of what Christianity is about loving your neighbor as much as your self and wanting the same things for them that God wants for them; which is eternal life and salvation.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9

You can not seperate the creation ( the world and mankind) from the Creator ( God ) and you can not have access to God except through the person of Jesus Christ, and believing in Jesus or God is not enough because Satan and his demons believe in Them also, and tremble, according to scripture.

Be sure of what you believe, or don't believe, because it's not a light decision you are making. That's all that I am saying. God is always available to you and always near; He is not put off by your refusal to accept Him as important to your world view. He loves you and wants to have a relationship with you.

Grace and Peace,

Lightseeker



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by lightseeker
I know that you don't like being preached to, or at,

Yeah.. I can see you really respected my requests not to do it. :shk:

but what I am trying to do is just show you that you are overlooking a great deal of information, in your decision making about your eternal destiny.

All you have shown is your abiltity to be presumptious.

I actually have read the bible

extensively.. my interpritation was that jesus was primarily a humanist so belief in god is irrelevent.

If you have any belief in life after death at all, then, doesn't it make sense to be sure where you are going to spend that life.?

From my own experiences.. of which i'ts probable you have not experienced.. there is no boogie man after phycial death and we all just end up the same way.. there is no after death segregation.. and how do you segregate [in hell] something that cannot be confined?

Part of what Christianity is about loving your neighbor as much as your self and wanting the same things for them that God wants for them; which is eternal life and salvation.

I always thought 'love thy neigbour' was Jesus' main message.. I don't remember him saying "love thy neighbour is a good pretence to manipulate them into believing as you do."

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9

I love when people everso subtly tell me I'm going to hell while pretending they are speaking for their god. Thats a bit vain isn't it? Oh.. and judgemental. I think jesus said something about judgements.. but clearly I do not understand what the guy was on about.. I always thought his message was love. Apparently it's eternal subservience and worship.

Anyone else care to start preaching?

[edit on 27-7-2005 by riley]



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by madmanacrosswater

I actually did see a 'light'/became illuminated [I know thats cleshe] but didn't stop at that and I did not inteprite it as 'god'.



Riley, perhaps I was wrong with Jake and it should be you and I exchanging notes.



I think we already have been.


[edit on 27-7-2005 by riley]



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by riley
Anyone else care to start preaching?
[edit on 27-7-2005 by riley]


Yep


It's true Jesus's loudest message was love your neighbor. He said that that was the greatest commandment, the most important rule to follow. However, he also made very clear that there is only one way into heaven:

John 14:6-7

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."


Jesus was not a humanist. He loves humanity and every individual person, but He does not believe we can be perfect, nor does he believe we can be free of sin. If He did, He never would have sacrificed Himself for us, he would have stayed and taught and taught until we got the message and started living clean lives. Even Jesus got upset when He was refered to as "good", explaining the only one who can justifiably called "good" is God the Father, and God the Father alone.

Truely, truely I say to you, His message was one of servanthood and worship.

Mark 9:35

Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."


Acts 3:13

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.


If we're supposed to live our lives trying to be like Jesus, and he was a servant of all, would it not make sense that we, too, are to be servants of all?

As to worshipping:

Matthew 4:10

Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "


John 4:21

Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.


John 4:23

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.


Jesus advocated worshipping, and it is riddled throughout the entire Bible that it should be done in everything. That doesn't mean you have to be on your knees day and night, but rather in everything you do you should be glorifying God. If you'd like me to get deeper into that concept, I can, but it is difficult to explain. If you're interested, I'll go into detail



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 04:43 PM
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It's people's misinterpretation of their religion that causes things like this. For others, it's a lust for power where they see using that religion as a platform will allow them to get people to do things for them with all their hearts. It's also the fault of the followers who don't know their own religion well enough to recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing. It is not the religion its self that propogates this behavior, it's humanity. I will be the first in line to condemn the actions of someone who kills an abortion doctor in the name of my God, because it is not in synch with who my God is and what he expects of us. We are to love our neighbors, and, if necessary, gently rebuke them when they are wrong, as they should do for you. Killing someone isn't a gentle rebuke, it's a final judgement made by someone who has no right to pass that judgement.


I believe this is what Riley, et. al., are saying. People not only misinterpret their own religion but, acting on these misinterpretations, they stir up trouble - from convincing others that they know the truth to inciting holy wars. Just because you identify yourself as a Christian and don’t do these things, doesn’t mean that other Christians are of the same mind (as has been proven historically and stated in numerous postings on this thread). I can’t speak for Riley, but for me, I fear these people greatly. For example, Karl Rove, whose party identifies itself with American Christians and feels that it was given a mandate from them, recently lambasted liberal Democrats for showing Christ-like qualities (i.e., showing compassion to your enemies and trying to love them). Meanwhile he lauds the conservative Republicans for attacking their enemies with force. Since they supposedly represent the Christian majority in America, it can be inferred that the current administration believes it is acting in the name of God, and many mainstream Christians agree with them, as was evidenced in the last election. These include a number of people that I know who feel that they are in the right, and that they have a mission to save “God-less Liberals” like me.

So, I have people who call themselves Christians, identify themselves with the current administration, and support the killing of others for our own safety (unlike Christ), telling me that I am wrong and will face eternal damnation unless I repent.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 05:01 PM
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Hey Cat-

Here's what I believe. Any relationship that man has with God is just that, a personal relationship; as long as you are in relationship with God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, and have recieved confirmation from the Holy Spirit then that is all that matters. It is not "religion" it is "relationship."

What other people do, you are neither responsible for, nor can you do anything about. The outrages that some, or many, commit in the name of God and Christ are between that person and God. We are not to judge them, that's God's job. Our job is to Love God and our fellow man and do the best we can with what God gave us, which includes accepting His offer of eternal life with Him, through Christ.

If you allow yourself to be manipulated, by those who call themselves Christians, but truly are not, into rejecting God out of hand, then you are without excuse. God said that you will know those who are His by their fruits. There are those who profess Christian faith who are demonstarting that faith with good fruit.

Only your personal relationship with God will be judged at the last; He has put before us two choices: life and death; choose life.

Grace & Peace,

Lightseeker



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 06:39 PM
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I agree with you LightSeeker. And, IMO, most of us posting to this thread agree that as long as the emphasis is on the "relationship" and not the "religion", everybody is happy. The question is, if someone tells me that my relationship with God is incorrect because I don't do things the way that they want me to, are they imposing their religion on me?

I notice that you placed a lot of emphasis on the personal nature of the relationship...



Originally posted by lightseeker

Here's what I believe. Any relationship that man has with God is just that, a personal relationship;


which to me implies that each person must find his own path to God, and yet you then tell me exactly how I must do it...


as long as you are in relationship with God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, and have recieved confirmation from the Holy Spirit then that is all that matters.


You say that we are not responsible for the actions of others, and that we couldn't do anything about it, even if we were...


What other people do, you are neither responsible for, nor can you do anything about.


does this mean that you shouldn't be trying to change others, including me?

Also, I agree that we shouldn't judge anyone...


The outrages that some, or many, commit in the name of God and Christ are between that person and God. We are not to judge them, that's God's job.


however, knowing that people have commited outrages in the name of God, shouldn't we then be leary of those who say that they understand what God wants us to do?

We both agree that people will call themselves Christians and use the Bible to manipulate others, some because they really believe and are not just being malicious, and that we should ignore these people based on the "fruits" of their actions.


If you allow yourself to be manipulated, by those who call themselves Christians, but truly are not, into rejecting God out of hand, then you are without excuse. God said that you will know those who are His by their fruits. There are those who profess Christian faith who are demonstarting that faith with good fruit.


The question is, how sure are you of the fruit you are offering? If others believed they had the truth, but were proved wrong, even by you, then do you really feel right in telling others that you definetly know the truth?

I think your last line puts it best...


Only your personal relationship with God will be judged at the last


By the way, I haven't dismissed God out of hand, in fact we have a very good relationship. Also, Jesus has been my personal friend for over forty years.

Enjoy!

DogWasCat



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 09:00 PM
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Originally posted by riley
Anyone else care to start preaching?


I accept the challenge.

What burns besides witches? ... More witches!
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Huh? I thought there was only one Son of God™
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. (Deuteronomy 32:8 RSV)

How many gods does this monotheistic religion recognize?
“There is none like thee among the gods, O Lord, nor are there any works like thine.” (Psalms 86:8 RSV)

Bummer for those vowed by someone else as "doomed to the Lord"
"Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death." (Leviticus 27:28-29)

Note to self, never vow the first thing to exit my house as a burnt offering...(I suppose he was expecting his wife?)
"And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." ..."So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy...When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin." (Judges 11)

Genocide anyone?
"Then the LORD said to me, 'Look, I have begun to hand King Sihon and his land over to you. Begin now to conquer and occupy his land.' Then King Sihon declared war on us and mobilized his forces at Jahaz. But the LORD our God handed him over to us, and we crushed him, his sons, and all his people. We conquered all his towns and completely destroyed everyone – men, women, and children. Not a single person was spared. We took all the livestock as plunder for ourselves, along with anything of value from the towns we ransacked. "The LORD our God helped us conquer Aroer on the edge of the Arnon Gorge, the town in the gorge, and the whole area as far as Gilead. No town had walls too strong for us. (Deuteronomy 2:31-36 NLT)

God is the same today as yesterday as tomorrow?
Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)

I think this one's for me. I kind of feel sorry for everyone else in my town.
"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Hey! I thought he wanted everyone to convert!?
And when he [Jesus] was alone, those present along with the Twelve questioned him about the parables. He answered them, "The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables, so that 'they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.'" (Mark 4:10-12 NAB)

Uh. Whatever interest I may once have had, I just lost it. Now that you can have this procedure done with modern medicine, why aren't all you Christian guys lining up for a trim?
"For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12)


[edit on 27-7-2005 by spamandham]



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 06:35 AM
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address those points spamandham, and continue the dialogue riley, but what is the point really?
Both of you are convinced God is in need of tearing down and you're going to take every opportunity to do just that. That's fine, it's free communication around here, but bearing in mind the thread is called "The Absolute Power of Chrsitianity", you're going to get some 'preaching' (telling of the good news). Don't want the good news? No problem, this isn't the only thread on ATS
.

Thanks JJ, I think you were spot-on in clarifying my posts.


Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 28-7-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
address those points spamandham, and continue the dialogue riley, but what is the point really?
Both of you are convinced God is in need of tearing down and you're going to take every opportunity to do just that.


How can quoting the Bible be considered "tearing god down"? You should be revelling in the passages I posted abd talking about how wonderful they are. The Bible is after all the word of god isn't it? Have you signed up for that eunich surgery yet? With modern medicine, there's really no excuse not to do it.



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
How can quoting the Bible be considered "tearing god down"? You should be revelling in the passages I posted abd talking about how wonderful they are. The Bible is after all the word of god isn't it? Have you signed up for that eunich surgery yet? With modern medicine, there's really no excuse not to do it.


The tone of these words lead me to believe you're not looking to understand, but rather tear down, insult, and cause a fight. Why perpetuate an arguement there just for the sake of arguement?

I will address the New Testament passages because they can be confusing and relate back to some prophesy (at least the one in Mark). However, that is going to have to come later, 'cause work calls.



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by DogWasCat

I notice that you placed a lot of emphasis on the personal nature of the relationship...

Originally posted by lightseeker

Here's what I believe. Any relationship that man has with God is just that, a personal relationship;


which to me implies that each person must find his own path to God, and yet you then tell me exactly how I must do it...



Lightseeker ...as long as you are in relationship with God, the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, and have recieved confirmation from the Holy Spirit then that is all that matters.


Well, we are talking about Christianity, which is which is a relationship between the believer and God, through Jesus Christ; everything else is "religion" Christianity is not a religion, except in the sociological sense.
When it comes down to a personal level, it's not religion anymore but relationship. We think of God as our Heavenly Father and are "adopted" by Him, through the finished work of Jesus Christ.


You say that we are not responsible for the actions of others, and that we couldn't do anything about it, even if we were...



Lightseeker What other people do, you are neither responsible for, nor can you do anything about.



does this mean that you shouldn't be trying to change others, including me?


No one person can change another, all you can do is deliver the Good News" of the Gospel, answer any questions, and then ask if that person is feeling the conviction of their sins and the desire to accept God's offer of forgiveness. There is a lot of prayer involved, before, during and after the Christian person has shared their faith; but it is ultimately the decision of the individual who hears the message of Salvation, whether or not they want to 'receive" it.

I am talking here about how I would share my faith with someone face to face in person, on the web it is much more difficult because of the time lapses between posts or emails among other things. If the hearing or receiving person has an open heart and mind and is truly intent on knowing God and his position or place in God's Kingdom, the, God will honor that sincere desire and reveal Himself to that person. But , I, personally have never changed one person in this life, including myself.


Also, I agree that we shouldn't judge anyone...



Lightseeker The outrages that some, or many, commit in the name of God and Christ are between that person and God. We are not to judge them, that's God's job.



however, knowing that people have commited outrages in the name of God, shouldn't we then be leary of those who say that they understand what God wants us to do?


Why should you be leary? God has given you the intelligence and instincts toknow when someone is trying to con or use you; In all other instances, search the scriptures, test what you are being told, to be sure what they say is true. If you conclude that what you have been told is scriptural, the, you have a decision to make, based on the moving of the Holy Spirit in your own heart and soul. If scripture does not bear out what you are hearing then you are free to ignore what you have been told.


We both agree that people will call themselves Christians and use the Bible to manipulate others, some because they really believe and are not just being malicious, and that we should ignore these people based on the "fruits" of their actions.



Lightseeker If you allow yourself to be manipulated, by those who call themselves Christians, but truly are not, into rejecting God out of hand, then you are without excuse. God said that you will know those who are His by their fruits. There are those who profess Christian faith who are demonstarting that faith with good fruit.



The question is, how sure are you of the fruit you are offering? If others believed they had the truth, but were proved wrong, even by you, then do you really feel right in telling others that you definetly know the truth?


Look, ultimately, all any of us can do, as Christians, is tell the truth as it applies to our own "relationship" with God and Christ; we know the truth of Christ's regeneration and salvation, because we see it in ourselves, in the changes that have taken place in our lives and in our relationships with family, friends and others. There will always be charlatans and fools to contend with, whether you are Christian, Hindu, Jewish or atheist; if you are a person that believes there is a God, but you are not sure what Kind of God He is or how He feels about you, then, pray about it. Just say the words, "God if you are truly there and care about me and love me, then show me." You don't have to jump up and down and dance around to get His attention, He is already listening.


I think your last line puts it best...



Lightseeker Only your personal relationship with God will be judged at the last



By the way, I haven't dismissed God out of hand, in fact we have a very good relationship. Also, Jesus has been my personal friend for over forty years.

Enjoy!

DogWasCat


Then everything that I have said up to this point, you already know and have done yourself; if not, however, maybe it's time for another talk with God.

Grace and Peace,

Lightseeker



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by junglejake
The tone of these words lead me to believe you're not looking to understand, but rather tear down, insult, and cause a fight. Why perpetuate an arguement there just for the sake of arguement?


It's true that I find the more absurd passages of the Bible entertaining, and enjoy watching apologists squirm trying to harmonize them with the kinder gentler nature of god modern Christians prefer, but that doesn't mean my mind is closed.

There are several of you here quoting the nice feel-good Bible passages, and totally ignoring the blood-thirsty psychotic portions. I point those out because they support my position, which is that there is nothing special about Christianity, because there is nothing special about Judaism, and there never was. It has the same bloody religio-national-ethnic history as all ancient religions. God's chosen race? Is it possible to be more racist than that? God's chosen nation? Is it possible to be more fascist than that? These are not beautiful concepts, they are the ugliest ideas to spring forth from the bowels of humanity. They have caused untold death and suffering and enslaved the human race for thousands of years.

If you are actually seeking truth and not merely trying to convert others, you will read these passages and recognize they make no sense for a loving father, but they make plenty of sense for the national religion of an ancient brutal theocracy not much different than Afghanistan under the Taliban.

The passages I pulled are not just musty old ignored passages. They have caused wars and persecution even in fairly recent times, and enabled generations of pedophiles. If these words are not inspired by god, then they are an evil abomination worthy of being expunged from humanity with intent and celebration, and used as a reminder for future generations of the dangers of faith.

If they are inspired, why are Christians not promoting the execution of witches and the wanton destruction of entire non-YHWH civilizations (oh wait, I forgot about Iraq), and why have virtually no Christian men had that surgery? The answer is simple, most people who claim the Bible is inspired are uninformed about what it actually says, and those that are informed are mostly lying to themselves and others. Those who take these passages to heart get locked up as sociopaths.



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 10:27 AM
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Christ said something a couple millennia back that explains why Christians who follow the Word are not out there burning witches, stoning adulterers, etc. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." The Law stated what was to be done to those who sinned against God, but Jesus explained that before you can justly judge someone, you yourself must be without sin and not having broken any of the Law. If there's one thing that really irked Jesus, it way hypocrites, and condemning someone for a sin while you're committing another is the epitome of hierocracy in God's eyes. We as Christians are not called upon to judge and condemn those who break God's law, we are called upon to rebuke them. To point out where they're goofing, just as we'd like the same done for us. There is no condemnation in Christ.

As to the eunuchs, at the time it was a fairly common practice to create one. However, the idea behind it was to lead a celibate life. That is why Catholic Priests are not to engage in any kind of fornication. Yet, history has shown that this path is not for everyone, and many priests have fallen because they were forced into this lifestyle in order to serve God. Paul speaks on being celibate, but makes the point that it's not for everyone, and it's not God's Will for everyone. Some people need a partner to further their ministry with and to fulfill an emotional need. I'm one of those folks; I want a wife. I know I stumble and fall at times, and having someone to pick me up, dust me off, and kick me back in the right direction would be wonderful.



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 10:54 AM
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Sure, let's go through these, shall we? Since out of the 695 pages of my Bible, this is all you have issue with...


Originally posted by spamandham
What burns besides witches? ... More witches!
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)


Yes yes, I think we're all familiar with the old law of the land. Are you also familiar with "You shall not kill" as a commandment and what Jesus says is the fulfillment of the law in the New Testament? "You have heard that is was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in Heaven." - Matthew 5:43. How many witches have I known well? 4. How many have I burned and been commanded to burn? 0.


Originally posted by spamandham
Huh? I thought there was only one Son of God™
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. (Deuteronomy 32:8 RSV)


Hey look, Jesus already talked to what that means in my previous quote. How about that...


Originally posted by spamandham
How many gods does this monotheistic religion recognize?
“There is none like thee among the gods, O Lord, nor are there any works like thine.” (Psalms 86:8 RSV)


Already talked about this before in the other thread (or was it earlier in this one) - dead gods made of wood, stone, silver and gold.


Originally posted by spamandham
Bummer for those vowed by someone else as "doomed to the Lord"
"Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death." (Leviticus 27:28-29)


Redundant per above.


Originally posted by spamandham
Note to self, never vow the first thing to exit my house as a burnt offering...(I suppose he was expecting his wife?)
"And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." ..."So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy...When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin." (Judges 11)


As the bible says, you should not swear upon the Lord. Here is exactly why. There are moral lessons in the Bible. It's helpful to learn them.

"But above all, my brethren, do not swear,
either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath."
—James 5:12


Originally posted by spamandham
Genocide anyone?
"Then the LORD said to me, 'Look, I have begun to hand King Sihon and his land over to you. Begin now to conquer and occupy his land.' Then King Sihon declared war on us and mobilized his forces at Jahaz. But the LORD our God handed him over to us, and we crushed him, his sons, and all his people. We conquered all his towns and completely destroyed everyone – men, women, and children. Not a single person was spared. We took all the livestock as plunder for ourselves, along with anything of value from the towns we ransacked. "The LORD our God helped us conquer Aroer on the edge of the Arnon Gorge, the town in the gorge, and the whole area as far as Gilead. No town had walls too strong for us. (Deuteronomy 2:31-36 NLT)


Hardly world domination, taking back land originally occupied. Old Testament has a series of books on it.

map at: www.calvarychapel.com...

Again, the old way, not the new one.


Originally posted by spamandham
God is the same today as yesterday as tomorrow?
Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)


Repelling corruptors of the nation of Israel, there's a whole story there if ever interested in reading it.


Originally posted by spamandham
I think this one's for me. I kind of feel sorry for everyone else in my town.
"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


Already addressed.


Originally posted by spamandham
Hey! I thought he wanted everyone to convert!?
And when he [Jesus] was alone, those present along with the Twelve questioned him about the parables. He answered them, "The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables, so that 'they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.'" (Mark 4:10-12 NAB)


Where does it say he wants everyone to convert? Clearly we can see people here on ATS who will never accept God, right? My job is to deliver the message, not to make anyone accept it.


Originally posted by spamandham
Uh. Whatever interest I may once have had, I just lost it. Now that you can have this procedure done with modern medicine, why aren't all you Christian guys lining up for a trim?
"For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12)


As Jesus says regarding adultry, "if your eye offends, gouge it out" rather than going to Hell (Matthew 5:27). Where does it say you have to be a eunuch again? I think you're getting a bit over-excited by that word. Well, fine. You want me to be a eunuch? So be it. I don't really care.

[edit on 28-7-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by riley
Anyone else care to start preaching?


I accept the challenge.

What burns besides witches? ... More witches!
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)


The text below is from:

www.godrules.net... and I think explains the passage very well:

EXODUS 22:18-19 The laws which follow, from v. 18 onwards, differ both in form and subject-matter from the determinations of right which we have been studying hitherto: in form, through the omission of the yKi with which the others were almost invariably introduced; in subject-matter, inasmuch as they make demands upon Israel on the ground of its election to be the holy nation of Jehovah, which go beyond the sphere of natural right, not only prohibiting every inversion of the natural order of things, but requiring the manifestation of love to the infirm and needy out of regard to Jehovah. The transition from the former series to the present one is made by the command in v. 18, “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live;” witchcraft being, on the one hand, “the vilest way of injuring a neighbour in his property, or even in his body and life” (Ranke), whilst, on the other hand, employment of powers of darkness for the purpose of injuring a neighbour was a practical denial of the divine vocation of Israel, as well as of Jehovah the Holy One of Israel. The witch is mentioned instead of the wizard, “not because witchcraft was not to be punished in the case of men, but because the female sex was more addicted to this crime” (Calovius). hy;j; alo (shalt not suffer to live) is chosen instead of the ordinary tWm tWm (shall surely die), which is used in Leviticus 20:27 of wizards also, not “because the lawgiver intended that the Hebrew witch should be put to death in any case, and the foreigner only if she would not go when she was banished” (Knobel), but because every Hebrew witch was not to be put to death, but regard was to be had to the fact that witchcraft is often nothing but jugglery, and only those witches were to be put to death who would not give up their witchcraft when it was forbidden. Witchcraft is followed in v. 19 by the unnatural crime of lying with a beast; and this is also threatened with the punishment of death (see Leviticus 18:23, and 20:15-16).


Huh? I thought there was only one Son of God™
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. (Deuteronomy 32:8 RSV)


That's, "son", small s, as compared to Jesus, the Son of God, Uppercase S.
The sons of God refer to the sons of Noah who had survived the flood. This passage takes into account the scattering of the people that occcured when the Tower of Babel had been destroyed, and God was just making sure that the proper portion of land went to the families of the sons of Noah, since they were God's chosen people. destined to create the nation of Israel. Many, the generations preseding the Tower had turned to other god's (small g), idols and sorcery; God is saying here "Be sure that my people, the sons of God, who came out of the sons of Noah, get their fair share of the land.


How many gods does this monotheistic religion recognize?
“There is none like thee among the gods, O Lord, nor are there any works like thine.” (Psalms 86:8 RSV)


See above. The reference is to gods (small g), referring to idols and false religions.


Bummer for those vowed by someone else as "doomed to the Lord"
"Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death." (Leviticus 27:28-29)


From the Matthew Henry Commentary on the whole Bible
www.ccel.org...

II. Things or persons devoted are here distinguished from things or persons that were only sanctified. 1. Devoted things were most holy to the Lord, and could neither revert nor be alienated, Leviticus 27:28. They were of the same nature with those sacrifices which were called most holy, which none might touch but only the priests themselves. The difference between these and other sanctified things arose from the different expression of the vow. If a man dedicated any thing to God, binding himself with a solemn curse never to alienate it to any other purpose, then it was a thing devoted. 2. Devoted persons were to be put to death, Leviticus 27:29. Not that it was in the power of any parent or master thus to devote a child or a servant to death; but it must be meant of the public enemies of Israel, who, either by the appointment of God or by the sentence of the congregation, were devoted, as the seven nations with which they must make no league. The city of Jericho in particular was thus devoted, Joshua 6:17. The inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead were put to death for violating the curse pronounced upon those who came not up to Mizpeh, Judges 21:9,10. Some think it was for want of being rightly informed of the true intent and meaning of this law that Jephtha sacrificed his daughter as one devoted, who might not be redeemed.




Note to self, never vow the first thing to exit my house as a burnt offering...(I suppose he was expecting his wife?)
"And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." ..."So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy...When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin." (Judges 11)


See notation above on Levitcus 27:28-29


Genocide anyone?
"Then the LORD said to me, 'Look, I have begun to hand King Sihon and his land over to you. Begin now to conquer and occupy his land.' Then King Sihon declared war on us and mobilized his forces at Jahaz. But the LORD our God handed him over to us, and we crushed him, his sons, and all his people. We conquered all his towns and completely destroyed everyone – men, women, and children. Not a single person was spared. We took all the livestock as plunder for ourselves, along with anything of value from the towns we ransacked. "The LORD our God helped us conquer Aroer on the edge of the Arnon Gorge, the town in the gorge, and the whole area as far as Gilead. No town had walls too strong for us. (Deuteronomy 2:31-36 NLT)


In order to understand the verses noted, let's look at them in context with the preceding verses:

I. God gives them commission to seize upon the country of Sihon king of Heshbon, Deuteronomy 2:24,25. This was then God's way of disposing of kingdoms, but such particular grants are not now either to be expected or pretended. In this commission observe, 1. Though God assured them that the land should be their own, yet they must bestir themselves, and contend in battle with the enemy. What God gives we must endeavour to get. 2. God promises that when they fight he will fight for them. Do you begin to possess it, and I will begin to put the dread of you upon them. God would dispirit the enemy and so destroy them, would magnify Israel and so terrify all those against whom they were commissioned. See Exodus 15:14.

II. Moses sends to Sihon a message of peace, and only begs a passage through his land, with a promise to give his country no disturbance, but the advantage of trading for ready money with so great a body, Deuteronomy 2:26-29. Moses herein did neither disobey God, who bade him contend with Sihon, nor dissemble with Sihon; but doubtless it was by divine direction that he did it, that Sihon might be left inexcusable, though God hardened his heart. This may illustrate the method of God's dealing with those to whom he gives his gospel, but does not give grace to believe it.

III. Sihon began the war (Deuteronomy 2:32), God having made his heart obstinate, and hidden from his eyes the thing that belonged to his peace (Deuteronomy 2:30), that he might deliver him into the hand of Israel. Those that meddle with the people of God meddle to their own hurt; and God sometimes ruins his enemies by their own resolves. See Micah 4:11-13,Re+16:14.

IV. Israel was victorious. 1. They put all the Amorites to the sword, men, women, and children (Deuteronomy 2:33,34); this they did as the executioners of God's wrath; now the measure of the Amorites' iniquity was full (Genesis 15:16), and the longer it was in the filling the sorer was the reckoning at last. This was one of the devoted nations. They died, not as Israel's enemies, but as sacrifices to divine justice, in the offering of which sacrifices Israel was employed, as a kingdom of priests. The case being therefore extraordinary, it ought not to be drawn into a precedent for military executions, which make no distinction and give no quarter: those will have judgment without mercy that show no mercy. 2. They took possession of all they had; their cities (Deuteronomy 2:34), their goods (Deuteronomy 2:35), and their land, Deuteronomy 2:36. Matthew Henry



God is the same today as yesterday as tomorrow?
Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)


Here is a very good commentary synopsis from Mathew Henry's Commentary which explains what this verse is all about and how it fits into the rest of the chapter:

1 Kings 13


In the close of the foregoing chapter we left Jeroboam attending his altar at Beth-el, and there we find him in the beginning of this, when he received a testimony from God against his idolatry and apostasy. This was sent to him by a prophet, a man of God that lived in Judah, who is the principal subject of the story of this chapter, where we are told, I. What passed between him and the new king. 1. The prophet threatened Jeroboam's altar (1 Kings 13:1,2), and gave him a sign (1 Kings 13:3), which immediately came to pass, 1 Kings 13:5. 2. The king threatened the prophet, and was himself made another sign, by the withering of his hand (1 Kings 13:4), and the restoring of it upon his submission and the prophet's intercession, 1 Kings 13:6. 3. The prophet refused the kindness offered him thereupon, 1 Kings 13:7-10. II. What passed between him and the old prophet. 1. The old prophet fetched him back by a lie, and gave him entertainment, 1 Kings 13:11-19. 2. He, for accepting it, in disobedience to the divine command, is threatened with death, 1 Kings 13:20-22. And, 3. The threatening is executed, for he is slain by a lion (1 Kings 13:23,24), and buried at Beth-el, 1 Kings 13:25-32. 4. Jeroboam is hardened in his idolatry, 1 Kings 13:33,34. "Thy judgments, Lord, are a great deep."


I think this one's for me. I kind of feel sorry for everyone else in my town. "Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)


Here the case is put of a city revolting from its allegiance to the God of Israel, and serving other gods.

I. The crime is supposed to be committed, 1. By one of the cities of Israel, that lay within the jurisdiction of their courts. The church then judged those only that were within, 1 Corinthians 5:12,13. And, even when they were ordered to preserve their religion in the first principles of it by fire and sword to propagate it. Those that are born within the allegiance of a prince, if they take up arms against him, are dealt with as traitors, but foreign invaders are not so. The city that is here supposed to have become idolatrous is one that formerly worshipped the true God, but had now withdrawn to other gods, which intimates how great the crime is, and how sore the punishment will be, of those that, after they have known the way of righteousness, turn aside from it, 2 Peter 2:21. 2. It is supposed to be committed by the generality of the inhabitants of the city, for we may conclude that, if a considerable number did retain their integrity, those only that were guilty were to be destroyed, and the city was to be spared for the sake of the righteous in it; for will not the Judge of all the earth do right? No doubt he will. 3. They are supposed to be drawn to idolatry by certain men, the children of Belial, men that would endure no yoke (so it signifies), that neither fear God nor regard man, but shake off all restraints of law and conscience, and are perfectly lost to all manner of virtue; these are those that say, "Let us serve other gods," that will not only allow, but will countenance and encourage, our immoralities. Belial is put for the devil (2 Corinthians 6:15), and the children of Belial are his children. These withdraw the inhabitants of the city; for a little of this old leaven, when it is entertained, soon leavens the whole lump. Matthew Henry




Hey! I thought he wanted everyone to convert!?
And when he [Jesus] was alone, those present along with the Twelve questioned him about the parables. He answered them, "The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables, so that 'they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.'" (Mark 4:10-12 NAB)


O.K., here is a definate case of taking a verse out of context; let's look at the entire context in which this verse is situated:

1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land. 2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, 3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some a hundred. 9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. 13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? 14 The sower soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. 18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, 19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. 20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.

First of all, Jesus was being asked to explain his parable of the Soer and the Seed; He in turn explains the Parable and in so doing brings this verses meaning into crystal clarity.

So, in the context of the parable and it's explanation, we see that what Christ was referring to was that some people are not interested in learning or knowing the truth about God and His plan for their lives; they only want to have their ears "tickled" and expostulate on the "beauty and wisdom" of God or the "Love and Tolerance" that Jesus talked about, but they're not really interested in the "hard" or "sacrificial" thaings that He also spoke of. And never try to convince one of these people that Jesus Christ is actually, not just divine, but God, Himself, in the flesh.

This is why one of Jesus' favorite phrases was, " Him that has ears to hear, let him hear" Luke 8:8; Matt 11:15; Mk 4:32


Uh. Whatever interest I may once have had, I just lost it. Now that you can have this procedure done with modern medicine, why aren't all you Christian guys lining up for a trim?
"For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12)


Here, Christ is referring to the question put to Him by His disciples, that maybe some men were not prepared to marry and were concerned about sexual sin, since God and Christ, both had forbidden "fornication", or sex outside of marriage. Jesus was saying some, but not all, men had gone to extreme means to insure they did not commit a sexual sin and condemn theirselves to death. Jesus replied that God would not hold this self-mutilation against them, since their motive was to be pure and set apart from sin.

Any more questions?



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 12:09 PM
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Any more questions?


Yes, could you tell me about your relationship with the father from the heart without throwing in verses of BIBLE.

If you are unwilling to do so I understand for it is supposed to be a private thing between the individual and GOD. I just see a lot of scripture quoted on these pages, but never hear of personal relationships.

Jesus himself was careful about the making of religions. Yet someone years ago put together a book that most don't know who did the actual penning of what.



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by madmanacrosswater

Any more questions?


Yes, could you tell me about your relationship with the father from the heart without throwing in verses of BIBLE.

If you are unwilling to do so I understand for it is supposed to be a private thing between the individual and GOD. I just see a lot of scripture quoted on these pages, but never hear of personal relationships.

Jesus himself was careful about the making of religions. Yet someone years ago put together a book that most don't know who did the actual penning of what.


It's all about context. spamandham went after the Bible, and LightSeeker responded with quotes from the Bible. Besides, Light's saying what he believes and explaining it through verses in the book that he believes contains the word of God. This conversation is in a biblical context; to have to omit the very book in question would defeat the purpose. I agree that in some situations people quote the Bible in a conversation where it doesn't make much sense. For example, in the evolution v. creationism debates here, quoting the Bible isn't going to suddenly make someone who is not a Christian believe in creationism. However, in this context when we're talking about the validity of Christianity, the Bible applies.

Just my take on it



posted on Jul, 28 2005 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by madmanacrosswater

Any more questions?


Yes, could you tell me about your relationship with the father from the heart without throwing in verses of BIBLE.

If you are unwilling to do so I understand for it is supposed to be a private thing between the individual and GOD. I just see a lot of scripture quoted on these pages, but never hear of personal relationships.


No I am very happy to tell you all about it; not sure exactly what aspects you're looking for, but here goes. If I leave out a particular point that you are looking to address, just let me know and I'll follow up.

Well, I wasn't brought up in a religious household; my father was an avowed atheist and my mother was more or less an agnostic. My first real encounter with God came when I was 16 and attending a youth fellowship at a friends church; I didn't know too much about God up to that point but I became more and more interested in learning about who God said that He was and more about that "Love" thing from John 3:16. See, I couldn't understand how a perfect and Holy and righteous God could love me, so much; after all, I wasn't a goody two-shoes at the time. I wasn't a gangster either but I realized that if God was real and if he was the kind of God He said He was, I was screwed! But I kept going to church and bible study because "Something" kept drawing me back every week.

It wasn't til a year or so later, while attending a Youth for Christ Concert, that it finally all came together with the help of one particular speaker, whose name I do not remember. But, I remember the moment when I finally understood how it all fit together and knew what I had to do:

I was a sinner, that's why I always felt so far away from God, even while attending church and Bible study, God, in the person of the Holy Spirit, was the One Who kept drawing me back and causing me to be where I was that night and Jesus Christ was the answer to my sin problem. Jesus, I discovered had already paid the price for my sin with His death and resurrectiuon, and all I had to do was tell God that I would accept His Son's death in place of my own; after that I would be a child of God and all my sins past, present and future, would be forgiven. I took Him at His word and have never regretted it.

That was 35 years ago and, although I have stumbelled and fallen a few times since then, I am still a child of God and have a wonderful relationship with the father.

The relationship with Him is hard to put into everyday language because so much of it is spiritual and beyond the physical but essentially it involves me speaking to God through prayer; I worship, give thanks and praise Him and make any requests for help and blessing for friends, loved ones, sometimes complete strangers. God speaks to me through the His Word, the Bible and His Holy Spirit which is His gift to all that believe in Him and accept His free gift of Salvation in Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit confirms in me, in my mind and my mind and heart, that what I read in the Word is from God and that my prayers are heard and important to Him. That I can trust Him in everything, everyday, in any situation. That He loves me more than human speech has the power to convey. Sometimes, it brings tears to my eyes when I feel that love and understand just what He gave up for me, and for the world.

It is a joyous experience but not easy because I am always finding myself repenting of some sin that keeps coming back, sometimes envy or resentment, sometimes lust or pride; I don't have to ask God to forgive me again, He's already done that, but I must aknowledge the sin and repent(make a conscious and concerted effort to turn away from that sin, but always with The Father's help and guidance.

I talk to Him all the time, just like I would with my earthly father and I tell him about the things I am concerned about, things that I can't understand; I thank Him for the beauty He has put all around me and ask Him always to help me become the man He wants me to be. Above all other things I ask Him for, I ask for Love but not love for me, I already have and feel that; no, I ask for Him to fill me up with love for my fellow man for the unlovable and the people I don't like very much. I do this because He tells me that He loves all of them, everyone, just as much as He loves me and that His Son
died for everyone not just for me. Maybe, that's why,sometimes,Christians can seem so high-pressure or overbearing; because they want so much for everyone to know the joy and true peace of being In Christ and in communion with the Father.


Jesus himself was careful about the making of religions. Yet someone years ago put together a book that most don't know who did the actual penning of what.


Which book? The only book that matters is God's Word and the Word that was made flesh (Jesus Christ).

I hope this was helpful; if you want to, feel free to u2u me for a more personal discussion. God Bless you,

Lightseeker



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