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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 07:03 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
(i know i know.... i shouldnt take bible beliefs and apply them to you....
but this is not a bible belief...it is just as much a fact as death of the flesh.)

Jake. What possible purpose.. after having read my last few posts would you think I would appreciate you doing exactly the thing I've said irritates me? It's obvious antagonism.
In future.. do not discuss things with me if all you can say is "god dunnit- it's in the bible so there'- it doesn't exactly add to the discussion.

[edit on 26-7-2005 by riley]




posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.


This is a reference to Job 5:13, and refers to those who use their wits to oppress others. It has nothing to do with critical inquiry.


Originally posted by jake1997
That speaks volumes for today


What it speaks is a glimpse into cult mentality.



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by saint4God
So why is my research invalid, but your research (that includes no interest in finding God) valid?

Because your research is not applicable or compatable with my journey.. though it obviously is in yours.


Maybe when your journey includes the interest in finding God you'll arrive at a similar conclusion.

[edit on 26-7-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Maybe when your journey includes the interest in finding God you'll arrive at a similar conclusion.

I have alreedy gone through that part of the journey.

I have already gone through that part of the journey.
I have already gone through that part of the journey.
I have already gone through that part of the journey.

AGAIN 'god' is not relevent to me.. perhaps when your journey includes holding up humanity [or 'God's creation'] as a priority over god- you might understand my position. As it stands all I am hearing from you is "You're unsaved so need to be converted"..and all I see in this world are people screaming this at eachother or blowing eachother up with the slogan "Convert or die."

Would this become a better world if I were to convert and call myself christian? If god really existed.. what does it matter if I believe in it? Jesus was meant to be for everyone wasn't he? I'm a good person already [possibly not so much when I'm forced to repeat myself] so why fix what aint broke?

[edit on 26-7-2005 by riley]



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 03:08 PM
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I hope my compassion for humankind is self-evident. If it's not, you are certainly welcome to correct. I'd be interested in hearing more about the journey where you were seeking God and how you went about it. Would you be able to elaborate on that more? What made you give up?


Originally posted by riley
As it stands all I am hearing from you is "You're unsaved so need to be converted"..and all I see in this world are people screaming this at eachother or blowing eachother up with the slogan "Convert or die."


Peace riley, please. Feel free to quote any time I've advocated war or killing. It sounds to me you're hearing something different than what I'm saying. What am I 'needing' to convert you into? Do I get brownie points from God if I do? Definately not especially since I cannot convert anybody. I can't do God's job...which is why He's God and I'm not. I also wish I didn't get thrown into a stereotype, especially when it's not true.


Originally posted by riley
Would this become a better world if I were to convert


I doubt the world would change. Your world probably would.


Originally posted by riley
and call myself christian?


Call yourself whatever you like. As proven by sites like this, no-one cares who 'calls' themselves what.


Originally posted by riley
If god really existed.. what does it matter if I believe in it?


You matter. Do you want me to move along without caring? Sorry, I can't do that. Neither can He, which is why I'm here right now. It may be late by your clock to receive a sign but it's on time for His.


Originally posted by riley
Jesus was meant to be for everyone wasn't he?


Yeah, though refusing the gift means no invite to the party.


Originally posted by riley
I'm a good person already [possibly not so much when I'm forced to repeat myself] so why fix what aint broke?


It's that kind of over-confidence, self-approval, and self-reliance (what some people may call 'pride') that keeps us from seeing more than we want to. I follow ya though, it's easy to think we're at the top of all creation when it's all we can physically see.

Back to the questions at the top though please.


[edit on 26-7-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 03:28 PM
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Perhaps I should have explained the post better.

Do you have any control over the hour of your death? All will die one day. Unless you take matters into your own hands, you do not know when or how. Zero steering ability.

Once your body dies, you are still in zero control mode. Not only do you have no say or control, but you dont even know whats ahead. Even if you did somehow know, you still cant change it once you step off.

The illusion is that you have control now, when you really dont.
There is a fork in the road ahead and you pick a path. They end up leading to the other side of death...we will all be on the other side of death....

When you get to the other side of death of the flesh...into your unknown...then what?

Then what?



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Once your body dies, you are still in zero control mode. Not only do you have no say or control, but you dont even know whats ahead. Even if you did somehow know, you still cant change it once you step off.

The illusion is that you have control now, when you really dont.
There is a fork in the road ahead and you pick a path. They end up leading to the other side of death...we will all be on the other side of death....


The part we agree on is that we will all die. All evidence suggests that's the end of the story.


Originally posted by jake1997
When you get to the other side of death of the flesh...into your unknown...then what?

Then what?


Then? If you have credible evidence that death is not final and permanent, please share it. I'm not aware of any.

(that includes the Bible, which is not generally deamed credible by anyone other than Christian fundamentalists)



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 05:11 PM
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and that I do have my friend.

You see, there is a man who died, and then rose 3 days later, and then...get this...he acsended into heaven.

Now...this man said, that anyone who repents and asks God in His name...for forgivness of sins...will become a son of that God...AND...

AND

your eyes will be opened. Hold on a sec...

Your eyes will be opened means that you will be able to see for yourself what will happen beyond the death of your body.

Thats right.
YOU will be able to SEE FOR YOURSELF.

Now let me ask you... Isnt that exactly what you just asked me about?
Its right there. Ask saint.
Better yet...go private with saint and ask him if Im nuts. (like a second opinion ).
It just doesnt get any simpler then that



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 04:13 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by jake1997
Once your body dies, you are still in zero control mode. Not only do you have no say or control, but you dont even know whats ahead. Even if you did somehow know, you still cant change it once you step off.

The illusion is that you have control now, when you really dont.
There is a fork in the road ahead and you pick a path. They end up leading to the other side of death...we will all be on the other side of death....


The part we agree on is that we will all die. All evidence suggests that's the end of the story.


Originally posted by jake1997
When you get to the other side of death of the flesh...into your unknown...then what?

Then what?


Then? If you have credible evidence that death is not final and permanent, please share it. I'm not aware of any.

(that includes the Bible, which is not generally deamed credible by anyone other than Christian fundamentalists)



Originally posted by jake1997
You see, there is a man who died, and then rose 3 days later, and then...get this...he acsended into heaven.


Other than the Bible, there is no evidence that this truely occured, and since you cannot use the Bible as credible evidence (as it is an article of faith to everyone who is not a Christian fundamentalist), this argument is invalid. You cannot use faith to prove faith - it just doesn't work. That is the nature of faith - it is rooted in what is unproven and not provable.

To the Evangelists:

Some people are as rooted in their beliefs as you are rooted in yours, and only get annoyed when you continuously tell them how they are 'wrong' and you are 'right'. Unfortunately this has started many conflicts throughout history, and since you claim to love Peace, we wouldn't want you to go against your teachings...



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 04:37 AM
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Originally posted by Epocha

Other than the Bible, there is no evidence that this truely occured, and since you cannot use the Bible as credible evidence (as it is an article of faith to everyone who is not a Christian fundamentalist), this argument is invalid. You cannot use faith to prove faith - it just doesn't work. That is the nature of faith - it is rooted in what is unproven and not provable.

2 things

This was not ONLY given witness by the books in the bible.
Its just that nearly every writer who wrote witness of it, was placed into the bible.
Theres a difference

#2. I gave you a way to find out the truth. Just because you refuse to find out, and keep your head buried in the sand of your beliefs, it does not mean its unprovable.
It is in fact proven or I wouldnt hold the belief anymore


To the Evangelists:

Some people are as rooted in their beliefs as you are rooted in yours, and only get annoyed when you continuously tell them how they are 'wrong' and you are 'right'. Unfortunately this has started many conflicts throughout history, and since you claim to love Peace, we wouldn't want you to go against your teachings...


You should have quoted the 'you are wrong and I am right' lines



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 04:54 AM
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This was not ONLY given witness by the books in the bible.
Its just that nearly every writer who wrote witness of it, was placed into the bible.
Theres a difference

Well, please show me some historical documents or texts outside of the Bible where it shows this, and perhaps I will be swayed. Until you can, your truth is just as fragile as mine.


#2. I gave you a way to find out the truth. Just because you refuse to find out, and keep your head buried in the sand of your beliefs, it does not mean its unprovable.
It is in fact proven or I wouldnt hold the belief anymore

Where is the proof? And remember your own personal faith experiences are not considered proof for the argument. Afterall, I saw a leprachan 5 seconds ago. Believe me. It was there.


You should have quoted the 'you are wrong and I am right' lines

I'm not saying you are wrong. Who am I to say your truth is the wrong truth for you? All I ask is that you give me the same courtesy, which you seem incapable of.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 07:18 AM
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Your eyes will be opened means that you will be able to see for yourself what will happen beyond the death of your body.

Thats right.
YOU will be able to SEE FOR YOURSELF.


So you are saying that you know exactly your situation upon the expiration of your physical existence? NOT what the Bible says it will be... but what you have SEEN?

I've seen the LIGHT would you like to compare notes?



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 10:18 AM
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I know im jumping in this convo a little late, I apologize if I start talking about the wrong thing.

however I am assuming this current convo is about the opening of the eyes as talked about in Genesis. am I right? because if im not, im just gonna step back out and let you all do the talking...

thanks



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
and that I do have my friend.

You see, there is a man who died, and then rose 3 days later, and then...get this...he acsended into heaven.


I said credible evidence, not 2000 year old hearsay.


Originally posted by jake1997
Now...this man said, that anyone who repents and asks God in His name...for forgivness of sins...will become a son of that God...AND...

AND

your eyes will be opened. Hold on a sec...


I've already told you I used to be a Christian. I know first hand what you're saying is baloney.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
I hope my compassion for humankind is self-evident. If it's not, you are certainly welcome to correct.

Primarily.. what I hear from you is your promoting god.. not humanity. 'God' will never save humanity from itself.. only humanity can do that.. [obviously doing it 'though god' hasn't worked thus far and never will].

I'm guessing you value god more than the human being.. [hypathetically] ..do you really think 'He' would?


I'd be interested in hearing more about the journey where you were seeking God and how you went about it. Would you be able to elaborate on that more? What made you give up?

I'm not sure as why you are unable to understand my words. I did not give up.. I travelled beyond it. I actually did see a 'light'/became illuminated [I know thats cleshe] but didn't stop at that and I did not inteprite it as 'god'.

Peace riley, please. Feel free to quote any time I've advocated war or killing. It sounds to me you're hearing something different than what I'm saying. What am I 'needing' to convert you into? Do I get brownie points from God if I do? Definately not especially since I cannot convert anybody. I can't do God's job...which is why He's God and I'm not. I also wish I didn't get thrown into a stereotype, especially when it's not true.

I didn't say you are advocating killing and I'm fully aware you don't.. though you are trying to convince me to believe in god.. 'keep searching'.. still implying that I have not searched sufficiently which I consider to be presumptious and mildly insulting. Wheather is be a bomb or the bible.. 'spreading the word' are both on the same spectrum.. and 'truth' is relative to the individual. I accept your truth as being yours.. but this is not mutual. And yes you ARE trying to convert me.. otherwise you would just accept my beliefs and stop making me repeat myself as though I'm suddenly going to change my opinion.


Originally posted by riley
Would this become a better world if I were to convert


I doubt the world would change. Your world probably would.

:shk: Looking for a gaping wound Saint? Yes my life could be alot better [as could most] though it's not through lack of god [that is what you are suggesting no doubt] that it's not.. in fact life got a whole lot better when 'god' was removed.. it was like having a veil lifted from my eyes.


Originally posted by riley
If god really existed.. what does it matter if I believe in it?


You matter. Do you want me to move along without caring? Sorry, I can't do that. Neither can He, which is why I'm here right now. It may be late by your clock to receive a sign but it's on time for His.

ahh I get it.. so you are doing 'god's work' by helping me.. getting abit creepy Saint [not to mention really patronising].


Originally posted by riley
Jesus was meant to be for everyone wasn't he?


Yeah, though refusing the gift means no invite to the party.

How is someone declining the invitation if they are already following 'the word' unconciously? Do you think if Mother Teresa were an atheist she'd go to 'hell' despite all the good she accomplished?


Originally posted by riley
I'm a good person already [possibly not so much when I'm forced to repeat myself] so why fix what aint broke?


It's that kind of over-confidence, self-approval, and self-reliance (what some people may call 'pride') that keeps us from seeing more than we want to.

Firstly I'm not over confident [I know my own limits] and I see nothing wrong with the other things.. but isn't it a bit hypocritical to accuse me of this when you are telling me "I'm right.. you are wrong.".. how can you be sure your own pride hasn't resulted in believing what you want to believe? What makes you more of a spiritual authority than I?

I follow ya though, it's easy to think we're at the top of all creation when it's all we can physically see.

'We're'? Oh I get it.. you're saying I won't look up or am blind to seeing anything more.
It gets pretty annoying when you just keep safely inferring you 'know' better instead of actually saying it.

[edit on 27-7-2005 by riley]



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 12:43 PM
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I actually did see a 'light'/became illuminated [I know thats cleshe] but didn't stop at that and I did not inteprite it as 'god'.



Riley, perhaps I was wrong with Jake and it should be you and I exchanging notes.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by saint4God
I hope my compassion for humankind is self-evident. If it's not, you are certainly welcome to correct.

Primarily.. what I hear from you is your promoting god.. not humanity. 'God' will never save humanity from itself.. only humanity can do that.. [obviously doing it 'though god' hasn't worked thus far and never will].

I'm guessing you value god more than the human being.. [hypathetically] ..do you really think 'He' would?


What Saint means, I believe, is that he is being compassionate towards humankind by promoting God. I'm 99.9% sure he believes as I do, that the door to Heaven lies through Christ, and there is no back way in. By promoting God, he is trying to save people from what he believes will be a horrible fate. If he were to not promote God, he would be very uncompassionate because he'd be giving up on people and allowing them to go to a fate worse than death that he believes will happen with all his being. He's promoting God because he has compassion for other people's souls.

Even if you don't agree that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, or even that Heaven exists, Saint does, and compassion is his motivation for doing what he's doing.



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
What Saint means, I believe, is that he is being compassionate towards humankind by promoting God.

I fully understand this concept.. though historically it has been proven wrong.. if you were correct there would nvere have been a need for holy wars.

I'm 99.9% sure he believes as I do, that the door to Heaven lies through Christ, and there is no back way in. By promoting God, he is trying to save people from what he believes will be a horrible fate.

Same logic used when burning witches.. their souls were being 'saved'.. unfortuantly for this to be done they had to be put to death. Is that humane? Were they not following the bible?

If he were to not promote God, he would be very uncompassionate because he'd be giving up on people and allowing them to go to a fate worse than death that he believes will happen with all his being.

I'm not promoting god.. are you saying I'm not compassionate? If you believe you're saving others from a fate worse than death.. some [extremists] would think killing is okay because the alternative is worse. Valueing death over life is a dangerous sentiment.. again this has been proven historically.

He's promoting God because he has compassion for other people's souls.

Judgeing by what Jesus taught he was more concerned with having compassion for people fullstop.

Even if you don't agree that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, or even that Heaven exists, Saint does, and compassion is his motivation for doing what he's doing.

I realise this and know he means well.. but why should humanity need a mediator/god's sayso to show itself compassion? Why is it we continually have world wars over who's god is going to give us and grant us world peace when we could just give it to ourselves?



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Once your body dies, you are still in zero control mode. Not only do you have no say or control, but you dont even know whats ahead. Even if you did somehow know, you still cant change it once you step off.


Why so? And who or what says this? Sounds suspiciously like someone's unsubstantiated opinion.


When you get to the other side of death of the flesh...into your unknown...then what?

Then what?


You are truly free....again?



posted on Jul, 27 2005 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by riley
I fully understand this concept.. though historically it has been proven wrong.. if you were correct there would nvere have been a need for holy wars.


That's assuming the holy wars were not only fought in the name of God, but were according to His will. The crusades, which I suspect you're referencing, were about power and control using devout people's faith to motivate them.



Same logic used when burning witches.. their souls were being 'saved'.. unfortuantly for this to be done they had to be put to death. Is that humane? Were they not following the bible?


That's actually the first time I've ever heard that reasoning. No, witch trials were not stipulated in the Bible. The pastor who led the charge in Salem actually came out and apologized for what he had done a year after the fact. Not much condolance to the women who were burned, but he did realize he was out of line and not following scripture in his actions.


I'm not promoting god.. are you saying I'm not compassionate? If you believe you're saving others from a fate worse than death.. some [extremists] would think killing is okay because the alternative is worse. Valueing death over life is a dangerous sentiment.. again this has been proven historically.


No, I'm not saying you're not compassionate because you don't believe what he believes. He has a burden on his heart for people he believes are going to go to Hell if they continue to follow the same course. As to the killing because the alternative is worse, whoever would do that is not only an extremist, but doesn't follow Christianity. The only way you could kill someone to save them from Hell is if you were to murder fellow Christians who had found Christ. Killing someone who doesn't believe in Christ is not going to save them. On top of all that, the Bible mentions that murder is bad




I realise this and know he means well.. but why should humanity need a mediator/god's sayso to show itself compassion? Why is it we continually have world wars over who's god is going to give us and grant us world peace when we could just give it to ourselves?


Because we're foolish, arrogant, and blind. The people who start wars over whose God is right either think, well, I couldn't convince them with words, so I'll convince them to believe in my God by shooting them. You can't argue someone into the Kingdom, and shooting them is even less effective. I mean, think of the hypocracy.

"You will worship my God of peace and love, or I'll kill you, scumbag!"

It's people's misinterpretation of their religion that causes things like this. For others, it's a lust for power where they see using that religion as a platform will allow them to get people to do things for them with all their hearts. It's also the fault of the followers who don't know their own religion well enough to recognize a wolf in sheep's clothing. It is not the religion its self that propogates this behavior, it's humanity. I will be the first in line to condemn the actions of someone who kills an abortion doctor in the name of my God, because it is not in synch with who my God is and what he expects of us. We are to love our neighbors, and, if necessary, gently rebuke them when they are wrong, as they should do for you. Killing someone isn't a gentle rebuke, it's a final judgement made by someone who has no right to pass that judgement.




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