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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by riley
Because you assume that you have the answers I seek when you could only be ignorant of the questions..


Then, ask questions. If I fail to give the answer, then I'll refer you to someone who can.


Originally posted by riley
you are not a spiritual authority


No, I'm not.


Originally posted by riley
and certainly have no grounds to conclude you are wiser than I.


No, I do not. In fact, I have sought your council on a few occasions and hope to do so again if you're willing.


Originally posted by riley
I consider religion to be the most dangerous threat to humanity so trying to convert me into a 'christian soldier' would make me part of that threat.


Though I appreciate your confidence in my abilities, I cannot convert anyone. Apologies if I made you feel threatened. It certainly was not my intent.


Originally posted by riley
I could never be comfortable aiding humanity's own self distruction.


Same here.

Here's the point I'm trying to make: How long does someone need to search for God? As long as it takes to find Him. I don't know a single case when someone threw their hands in the air saying "I give up!" or more fancifully, "I conclude that God is bunk" and thereby found God.

Is this line of thinking 'salt'? Yes, but did not realize it would fall upon open wounds. I'd like to know what caused those wounds. Maybe then we could see about gentler healing. Again, one has to be willing to receive help in order to get help.

[edit on 25-7-2005 by saint4God]




posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
The other way to take it, though, is as an opportunity to understand the reasonings behine your enemy's actions. You know you're not going to be converted, so why worry about that?

I know what you mean.. the reason I worry about it is that I feel caught in the middle and am trying to understand the nature of division.

Instead try to understand where we're coming from. That way, you could at least understand why we react the ways we generally do to things, and at most, you could understand how to educate us to know that which is false.

Unfortuantly fact and 'truth' are incompatable at times. One requires proof.. the other requires faith which easily overides fact.

Now, like you, I don't fear being converted away from Christianity back to my old secular self.

You don't have to believe in god to be christian.. and I guess that may make me personally an 'atheist christian' [more buddhist I guess]. I respect and admire his philosophiess.. many are not detromental to humanity. What is detromental is christianity being used as a label to distinguish oneself from the 'unsaved'.. [line in the sand] I don't think that is what Jesus meant [if he existed]. The message is important not the messenger.

Theological discussion is something I enjoy greatly, as, it would appear, you do, too.

It is a facsinating subject.. there are elements to it that are quite scary as well. Humans are complex creatures.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by riley
you are not a spiritual authority



Originally posted by saint4God
No, I'm not.



Originally posted by saint4God
Again, one has to be willing to receive help in order to get help.


Riley, I can assure you Saint4God is understanding as they come, and I don't think he was not trying to say you were wrong. Saint you do have to understand that not everyone will come to the same conclusion as you, and there is the possibility you are wrong. I suggest you agree to disagree, as no one will win this argument.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Saint you do have to understand that not everyone will come to the same conclusion as you,


I don't know anyone who as come to the same conclusions I have. There is however, the possibility that others and I go to the same source to get the conclusions we need.


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
and there is the possibility you are wrong.


I know I can be wrong because I know who is right. This is why you will never hear me say, "follow me", rather "over there is your answer, go get it". I'm not mankind's servant nor do I want anyone to serve me.


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I suggest you agree to disagree, as no one will win this argument.


This is certainly sound advice that I've gotten from people young and old, Christian and non-Christian, so I will follow it....as soon as I stop caring.


[edit on 25-7-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by riley
Because you assume that you have the answers I seek when you could only be ignorant of the questions..


Then, ask questions. If I fail to give the answer, then I'll refer you to someone who can.

I suspect your answers would be based around god.. and those you would refer me to would be in the same vein. My questions are not based around any possible existence of god.. they are more in regard to human hierchy, power and the need for spirituality.


Originally posted by riley
and certainly have no grounds to conclude you are wiser than I.


No, I do not. In fact, I have sought your council on a few occasions and hope to do so again if you're willing.

I acknowledge this.. however this statement:
If that's how hard you're going to try to find God, then it is no wonder that you haven't found Him.
Suggests that you 'know' more than I do spiritually as you've said I haven't searched hard enough for the thing you 'know' exists. I personally 'know' it doesn't.. therefore you think I am ignorant of the 'truth'.

Though I appreciate your confidence in my abilities, I cannot convert anyone. Apologies if I made you feel threatened. It certainly was not my intent.

I am not worried about being converted.. it aint going to happen. I object to it being implied that I somehow need to be converted to save my soul.. this does not interest me- and as it's my 'soul' it's my business.

Here's the point I'm trying to make: How long does someone need to search for God? As long as it takes to find Him. I don't know a single case when someone threw their hands in the air saying "I give up!" or more fancifully, "I conclude that God is bunk" and thereby found God.

I am not interested in 'finding' god.. I also do not believe it exists so looking for it would just be a watse of time for me. I also have more relevent questions I'd like to find answers to.

Is this line of thinking 'salt'? Yes, but did not realize it would fall upon open wounds. I'd like to know what caused those wounds. Maybe then we could see about gentler healing. Again, one has to be willing to receive help in order to get help.

More passive aggression. I already explained why I took offence.. now you are going for the same angle. What wounds st4god? You said something insulting and try absolve yourself by blaming me for being oversensitive. What 'healing'? Let me guess.. god? Am I right?



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 12:54 PM
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Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by saint4God
If that's how hard you're going to try to find God, then it is no wonder that you haven't found Him.

Suggests that you 'know' more than I do spiritually as you've said I haven't searched hard enough for the thing you 'know' exists. I personally 'know' it doesn't.. therefore you think I am ignorant of the 'truth'.


I think what he was trying to say is that when you look into a question already "knowing" the answer, chances are you're going to find the answer you seek.

For an example, a really basic one, let's say you're convinced "4" does not exist. You know this. Now, someone presents you with a question, "what's 2 + 2?" Knowing 4 doesn't exist, it wouldn't even occur to you to answer with a "4". Instead, answers may be along the lines of, "2^2", "5-1", or "the square root of 16." Because you know 4 doesn't exist, you found other ways to represent it. Someone who does believe in 4, or isn't sure, would be able to answer that question, "4" instead of convoluting it subconsciously. As Einstein once said, "Everything should be as simple as it is". Finding a different expression for "4" doesn't mean the answer isn't 4, it just means there are more convoluted means through which to express it.

Kind of like this post, I started with one intention, and ended in a bizzare and confusing forest of convolusion...And I'm not sure what it was I was trying to say
Ahh well, Post Reply



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 01:01 PM
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Describing a number can occur in many ways. 2+2, 5-1, 12/3. They all are 4. We call that an expression.

The number four is an expression to describe something. Not an entity itself. (unless you build a big four out of wood or something)

The problem is that whatever it is that is represented by the expression exists. If you have 2 apples, and add two more, you have...4,5-1,6-6+4, 7-3 apples. It doesnt matter how you look at it, the quantity represented by the expression exists.

Mathematicals is factual. You cannot spin it any other way jake. It just is. However, while I KNOW what 4+4 is, you simply believe in god. And after you dig way deep down, youll find even in yourself, that belief is only a matter of opinion.

My proof? Ask anyone in the world above the age of 10 who isnt mentally ill in anyway, what 2+2 is. You will get exactly the same answer every time. An expression of 4 (since you decided you wanted to take it there for whatever reason). Ask those same people whether or whether not god exists, and you will get a near 50/50 split OF OPINION.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
I think what he was trying to say is that when you look into a question already "knowing" the answer, chances are you're going to find the answer you seek.

You missunderstand. The question "Is there a god?" is no longer relevent to me.. I've been through that journey.. and came out the other side with my answer but also found more relevent questions that are much more difficult to answer.

There is much more to existence than god.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 01:11 PM
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It was just an example to show how dismissing one possible solution while trying to answer a question can really convolute things. Just to clarify, I do not think God is the number 4.

If you want an idea where my simple belief came from, check out this link: www.belowtopsecret.com...'



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 01:27 PM
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I've always with-held a bit of concern toward how much power the pope has in this world... to think he'd have control over most of the christian population in the world at the sway of his arm... wont help me sleep.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 01:35 PM
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I haven't exactly 'dismissed' it as a solution.. it just doesn't qualify enough for me to be even considered. There are always explanations for things.. 'god done it' is used to premetually when someone hits a wall of mystery.

Thanks for the link.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by riley
There are always explanations for things.. 'god done it' is used to premetually when someone hits a wall of mystery.


On that we agree. I think God plays a major part in every day things, far greater than I could imagine, but he also set up laws to govern this Universe, most of which we don't understand currently. This is what we call science; trying to understand the inner workings of His creation. "God did it" is an easy fall back, but they ignore some things, like "How did God do that?"




Thanks for the link.



No prob, it's usually in my sig, but apparently ATS is busy today because I ain't seen that little bugger all day...And after I added a really cool quote from Teddy Roosevelt I found to it this morning



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by riley
I suspect your answers would be based around god.. and those you would refer me to would be in the same vein. My questions are not based around any possible existence of god.. they are more in regard to human hierchy, power and the need for spirituality.


So...you're saying God or answers in that vein cannot answer those questions?


Originally posted by riley
I acknowledge this.. however this statement:
If that's how hard you're going to try to find God, then it is no wonder that you haven't found Him.
Suggests that you 'know' more than I do spiritually as you've said I haven't searched hard enough for the thing you 'know' exists. I personally 'know' it doesn't.. therefore you think I am ignorant of the 'truth'.


I don't know more, I know differently. In fact, I don't care who knows more, I care about is helping to fix the lack of results in your research. I've heard you speak the truth on many occasions, do you want to find the source of that truth that you're now clinging tightly to or do you not? I'm also interested in how you 'know' God doesn't exist so any elaboration on that point would be most appreciated.


Originally posted by riley
I am not worried about being converted.. it aint going to happen. I object to it being implied that I somehow need to be converted to save my soul.. this does not interest me- and as it's my 'soul' it's my business.


As you say, it's up to you.


Originally posted by riley
I am not interested in 'finding' god.. I also do not believe it exists so looking for it would just be a watse of time for me. I also have more relevent questions I'd like to find answers to.


Then why the need to constantly flag and affirm He doesn't exist when you're not interested in finding Him?


Originally posted by riley
More passive aggression. I already explained why I took offence.. now you are going for the same angle. What wounds st4god?


I dunno, I was hoping you could tell me.


Originally posted by riley
You said something insulting and try absolve yourself by blaming me for being oversensitive.


You'd taken this phrase in a much stronger way than I ever intended it. I don't know why. You keep asking what I'm suggesting, implying, etc. when I'm doing none of that, but rather making a statement. I've also clarified (as others have done here as well) what exactly that statement means.


Originally posted by riley
What 'healing'? Let me guess.. god? Am I right?


You're upset about something. Something doesn't upset us unless it hurts us. Is that an accurate assessement or is there a way of being upset without being hurt? If hurt, then healing needed. Feel free to fix my train of thought if I'm off track.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
So...you're saying God or answers in that vein cannot answer those questions?

Yes.

I don't know more, I know differently. In fact, I don't care who knows more, I care about is helping to fix the lack of results in your research.

See.. this is what I take offense at. You've concluded that my research was lacking because I did not come up to the same conclusion you did.

I've heard you speak the truth on many occasions, do you want to find the source of that truth that you're now clinging tightly to or do you not?

I know the source of my 'truth'.. I make sure it is based on fact for starters.. I filter out any bias, illusion, comfort [zone] or sentiment that may exist then I speculate on what is at the centre of it. I do not believe what I want to see.. I strip the pretty picture down until I can see what it's painted on.

I'm also interested in how you 'know' God doesn't exist so any elaboration on that point would be most appreciated.

I believe in a univesal energy however I do not believe it is a sentient being. The 'way' I know this is complex and difficult to articulate.. in brief [very brief] my journey included more paranormal than I was prepared for [meditation, OBE [2], severe preminitions, astral projection, strong ESP and hauntings] and was like walking through a maze which only centre was a dark hole I had to psyche myself to jump into.. when all was dark I was able to see where the light was shining from and then I understood.. god is not relevent. We are.
This journey was powerful, illuminating, traumatic, intense, wonderful and exhillerating all at the same time. It was extremily exhausting so it is a source of irritation when it is inferred that I must have just waded in the shallows. I was thrown in the deep end.


Originally posted by riley
I am not interested in 'finding' god.. I also do not believe it exists so looking for it would just be a watse of time for me. I also have more relevent questions I'd like to find answers to.


Then why the need to constantly flag and affirm He doesn't exist when you're not interested in finding Him?

I already have 'affirmation'.. apparently people think god is the answer when it is just another question. People are terrified of atheism because they assume it's an end when it's not.. it is when I see people indulging in ignorance because of their faith [eg. dinosaurs and humans existed together
] that I offer my perception on things.

You're upset about something. Something doesn't upset us unless it hurts us. Is that an accurate assessement or is there a way of being upset without being hurt? If hurt, then healing needed. Feel free to fix my train of thought if I'm off track.

You are. I get annoyed when people presumptuous enough to tell me I am in need of healing just because I do not believe in god. I have issues with 'spirituality'.. I am very spiritually sensitive and it annoys me when people tell me it's just 'lack of god' when it's actually too much of the 'other side' that has been caused the 'problem' [burden&blessing].
[btw. Please do not tell me 'god' will fix this.. as I do not believe in it, it will come off as overly simplistic and naive to my experiences.]

[edit on 25-7-2005 by riley]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Philosophers have spent lifetimes trying to answer this question. Generally, the sentament at the end of their worldly journey is they've spent their whole lives trying to find knowlege. All they learned through that lifetime is that they know nothing. Maybe a book is in order, something that will blow the socks off of all philosophy if both of you have gained the answer so many others have saught for so long.


I don't claim to have the answers, I claim that people are generally asking the wrong questions.


Originally posted by junglejake
Also, I think another branch of science may be in order, too, as there is none currently that can say so hands down God is a myth as you just have.


I don't recall saying anything like that. My claim is that there is no credible reason to believe otherwise. I also reserve the right to be wrong on that point if I subsequently run across credible evidence.


Originally posted by junglejake
I'm only saying this to possibly open your eyes to a self delusion I see in you that I had myself.


I suppose that it's fair that we each consider the other to be deluded.


Originally posted by lightseeker

Originally posted by spamandham
I'm sure you don't mean it this way since you seem like a pretty nice person, but statements that assume what's going on in the hearts and minds of others come across as arrogant and insulting.

I wonder if you realize: that observation works both ways?


Feel free to call me on the carpet if you see me doing it.



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 03:10 PM
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Well riley, at least I know where you stand. Thanks for sharing that experience. Try to see it from my point of view. I was in fact interested in God, Zeus, Satan, whoever beyond the human realm to show themselves to exist and got my answer. So why is my research invalid, but your research (that includes no interest in finding God) valid?

[edit on 25-7-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Well, at least I know where you stand. Try to see it from my point of view. I was in fact interested in God, Zeus, Satan, whoever beyond the human realm to show themselves to exist and got my answer.

Those deities do not interest me and I do not believe in those either.. [aside from possible mortal 'ghost' form eg. Jesus and other historical figures]

So why is my research invalid, but your research (that includes no interest in finding God) valid?

Because your research is not applicable or compatable with my journey.. though it obviously is in yours.

[edit on 25-7-2005 by riley]



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 07:47 PM
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Because your research is not applicable or compatable with my journey.. though it obviously is in yours.


ahhh...

but you do err in that it is compatable with your destination. We are all on a journey that will take us back to God. Some will find him about a thousand years earlier then the rest. So, although it is not compatable with the journey, it is compatable with the destination whether you decide to disbelieve it or not.

(i know i know.... i shouldnt take bible beliefs and apply them to you....
but this is not a bible belief...it is just as much a fact as death of the flesh.)



posted on Jul, 25 2005 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
We are all on a journey that will take us back to God. Some will find him about a thousand years earlier then the rest.


I can't help but recall the following quote each time I see someone make claims with certainty of that which they can not possibly know:

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are c0cksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell

[edit on 25-7-2005 by spamandham]



posted on Jul, 26 2005 @ 04:51 AM
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and doubt is satans first tool used in the Garden of Eden. From there he deceived man and has been doing it ever since.

Here are a couple more quotes

1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


That speaks volumes for today




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