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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 10:55 PM
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Christianity is the same as well. "I am the way, the truth, and the light. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME."


This isn't unique to Christianity. Osiris was called the way, the truth and the light. He's before Christ. Explanation?


If you agree with the above statement then you are, in all practicality, calling Christ a liar.


Jesus said that only Christians are the true faith? Please...chapter and verse. I want to see where Jesus called himself a Christian.


If Christ can be trusted, then HE ALONE is the way to salvation. Not Muhammed, not Buddha, not anyone, but the Messiah: Christ Jesus.


Considering the similarities of Jesus and Buddha, I wouldn't be surprised if their intent wasn't the same...just different people. I also believe that the Jesus you worship is not the true Jesus. I think yours is more bound in leather with some gold trim and possibly your name imprinted on front.


Most religions can simply not be put together no matter how strongly you believe as you do. Christ's words are plain and clear.


I'm just going to laugh at this. No wait. I'm not either. Unless you have experienced other religions, how can you make a statement like that? I've been "Christian" and turned away but I can still see the benefits for some people. Also, your fundamentalism teaches laziness and no personal responsibility. The Catholics seem to be the only ones who got some part of it right by justification.


And it doesn't matter how "good" you are in this life or how bad. Salvation (if Christianity is true) is giving freely.


Sad.


If it was based on merit (or "how you played the game") then Christ's death was in vain.


If he existed.




posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 10:55 PM
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I also have suspicions and doubts regarding the issue as to whether the NT accounts were "retro-fitted" to some of the prophecies in order to bolster the claims of this fledgling religion. Even the prophecies to which you refer are subject to interpretation and debate.


I completely agree with this statement!!! I believe that the NT writers were Jews but were limited in their knowledge of Judaism. The Jews weren't able to get other Jews to buy into Jesus so who could they get? Greeks. How could they get the Greeks to accept Jesus? Change the teachings. For example, the "virgin birth" in Isaiah that happens 700 years prior to Jesus was changed to the messiah will be born to a virgin. The teaching of Micah and the kings coming from Bethlehem was changed to the messiah will physically be born in Bethlehem rather than just the fact that coming from the line of David is coming from Bethlehem. The wording was also changed from lowly city to great city. I believe that all was going well with the Greeks until they got to the circumcision part. What happens? Jesus wasn't there to abolish but Paul did. He did away with circumcisions. Eh...just a thought.



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 11:03 PM
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The case "Church of the Holy Trinity v U.S." in 1892 was a landmark ruling by the highest court in the land -- the Supreme Court that America is and always shall be a Christian nation. Below is the actual ruling:

There is no dissonance in these declarations. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning; they affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons: they are organic utterances; they speak the voice of the entire people. While because of a general recognition of this truth the question has seldom been presented to the courts, yet we find that in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, it was decided that, "Christianity, general Christianity, is, and always has been, a part of the common law . . . not Christianity with an ESTABLISHED CHURCH (emphasis mine). . . but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men." And in The People v. Ruggles, Chancellor Kent, the great commentator on American law, speaking as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of New York, said: "The people of this State, in common with the people of this country, profess the general doctrines of Christianity, as the rule of their faith and practice. . . . We are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted upon Christianity." And in the famous case of Vidal v. Girard's Executors, this Court . . . observed: "It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law ...." These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that THIS IS A CHRISTIAN NATION (emphasis mine).

ALL OF MY RESPONSES ARE INDENTED

"It doesn't take a genius to know that if something is handed down by the Supreme Court that it will be law everywhere. Initially, she was fighting for herself but it ended up going further."

I agree with every word you say in the above two sentences.

"He didn't lie. He said he's not a man and he doesn't change. To make himself a man would be to make himself a liar. G-d would be all knowing yes? So he would know that he would eventually make himself into a man. Why would he say otherwise? He would be lying which he instructed us not to do."

When God says he is imutable he is refering to his moral standards, which he doesn't ever break. God being indwelt in the body of a man has nothing to do with his imutability.

"I will not act on my wrath, Will not turn to destroy Ephraim. For I am G-d, not man, "The Holy One in your midst: I will not come in fury." Hosea 11.9"

This verse refers to the creator/father aspect of God not to the Christ/saviour aspect, nor the Spirit aspect.

"What it is....NT writers doing what they did best. Taking bits and pieces to make Jesus fit the mold." Could you please elaborate. Thank you.

"Jesus' father was G-d....not Joseph. G-d doesn't have a tribal heritage. So he would automatically be eliminated as being of the root of Jesse and the tribe of Judah."

Obviously Jesus is God's Son, but Joseph was Christ's legal father (which is what custom would accept). Whenever lineages are written in the Bible they usually go through the male and the male only, not the female, so Christ, through Joseph, can be traced all the way to the house of David.

"But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days.
This verse has no reference to the Messiah but it shows that all rulers will come from Bethlehem where David was born...hence whose goings forth are from of old."

"out of thee shall ONE come forth unto Me that is to be RULER IN ISRAEL" That's all I have to say to that.

"The moshaich as promised to Israel will cause death to cease. How could there be any reference to him dying? Isaiah 25.8....He will swallow up death forever."

Sin=Death, Death=Sin. He has swallowed up death forever: he defeated sin once and for all. Salvation through Christ brings eternal life, which is the absence of death(sin).

"And he [Messiah] shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." -- Isaiah 2:4"

The verse above is referring to the one-thousand year reign of Christ, which has not yet come.

"He [Messiah] will destroy death forever." -- Isaiah 25:8

He has. Death(sin) has been paid for and eternal fellowship with God is now possible.

"Then the inhabitants of the cities of Israel will go out and make fire and feed them with the weapons -- shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, clubs and spears; they shall use them as fuel for seven years." -- Ezekiel 39:9

The verse above is referring to the 7 years of peace, which will take place before the return of Christ as Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

Virtually every verse you cite after what i've already covered refer to the one-thousand year reign of Christ, which is yet to come. He came first as a humble man and the perfect sacrifice to destroy death. And second, he will come to rule over the world and bring peace to all. When Christ returns a second time he will be shown to the world in all his glory and "every knee will bow under Heaven and earth."

By the way, might I ask why you are covering up God's name? Is that a Jewish custom? And what is with Judaism and Seinfeld? All of my Jewish coleagues love that show. Just curious.



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 11:12 PM
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Almost every verse that talks about salvation in the Gospels demonstrates that it must be done through Christ. If you think that the Gospels are doctored then why don't you think (perhaps you do) that a large portion of the Old Testament is doctored as well? After all, the Gospels as we know them were written a relatively short time after the events actually took place, but much of the Old Testament was written hundreds of years after.

"And, just so you don't think I'm attacking Christianity exclusively, those kinds of "quotes" from Mohammed don't seem very believable to me, either. "Kill all the unbelievers or damn them to eternal hell" is just not something that I can believe came from God."

This is just another reason I believe in Christ exclusively and not Islam.



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430

Christianity is the same as well. "I am the way, the truth, and the light. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME."


This isn't unique to Christianity. Osiris was called the way, the truth and the light. He's before Christ. Explanation?


If you agree with the above statement then you are, in all practicality, calling Christ a liar.


Jesus said that only Christians are the true faith? Please...chapter and verse. I want to see where Jesus called himself a Christian.


If Christ can be trusted, then HE ALONE is the way to salvation. Not Muhammed, not Buddha, not anyone, but the Messiah: Christ Jesus.


Considering the similarities of Jesus and Buddha, I wouldn't be surprised if their intent wasn't the same...just different people. I also believe that the Jesus you worship is not the true Jesus. I think yours is more bound in leather with some gold trim and possibly your name imprinted on front.


Most religions can simply not be put together no matter how strongly you believe as you do. Christ's words are plain and clear.


I'm just going to laugh at this. No wait. I'm not either. Unless you have experienced other religions, how can you make a statement like that? I've been "Christian" and turned away but I can still see the benefits for some people. Also, your fundamentalism teaches laziness and no personal responsibility. The Catholics seem to be the only ones who got some part of it right by justification.


And it doesn't matter how "good" you are in this life or how bad. Salvation (if Christianity is true) is giving freely.


Sad.


If it was based on merit (or "how you played the game") then Christ's death was in vain.


If he existed.


I will counter-point this in order.

Osiris doesn't fulfill prophecy.

Jesus never called himself a Christian. Christianity is just the coined term for those who follow Christ. It doesn't matter what you call yourself as long as you follow Christ.

I don't know how to reply to your "fetish-Jesus" thing... but... ok.

How is Christian fundamentalism lazy? Christian fundamentalism teaches us that because Christ is the way we must get off our butts and bring people to salvation. In fact, if Christian fundamentalism was inaccurate and all religions were acceptable then Christians would only have to feed the poor and shelter the homeless and all that fun stuff. ***150,000 "lazy" fundamentalist Christians are executed every year across the world trying to bring all people to salvation.*** True Christian fundamentalism teaches the opposite of laziness.

How is free salvation sad? Everyone is invited into the House of the Lord. None are turned away.

There are dozens of official Roman records that clearly show that Christ exists. His existence isn't disputed. His claim to be God is what is disputed.



posted on Jun, 1 2005 @ 11:30 PM
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And it doesn't matter how "good" you are in this life or how bad. Salvation (if Christianity is true) is giving freely. If it was based on merit (or "how you played the game") then Christ's death was in vain.


First you sort of give me the hint that I'm not a believer in Jesus(which I am), and then you come up with the statement above? "If" Christianity is true? You seem to want to condemn me and then throw in the big "if". What did that thar TV preacherman say?

Yes, salvation is giving freely, taking care of one's fellow man, taking care of our home the planet. ALL part of playing the game. I always am amazed about analogies. Now my friend, how would you list this Christian nation's scorecard in the things listed above?

See, I said I am a believer in Jesus. Yes, sure am. Call him a liar? No, perhaps some poor translation by man. Mohammed? Did I not read up above that he mentioned the light also?

Have you ever seen the light? I have. The light is good, pure, love, calming. Way above Christianity's understanding and teachings. I don't know about the others for I'm not very familiar.

Did Jesus say, "the only way" is through him, with him, or what? I have read various interpretations. Would you please explain which word it is? See, I don't know and those that profess they do don't either. Well, I'll say most. There may be some that have a little insight into the subject.

However, I knock NO ONE for what their "faith", "belief", or whatever is. I guess that is where I fail in that thar "preacherman"s test.

The greatest sin in the lack of understanding that we are all the sons and daughters of God, and we all have a piece of the Holy Spirit within us. Blasphemus, eh?

Namaste' and GOD bless



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 01:22 AM
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Originally posted by madmanacrosswater

And it doesn't matter how "good" you are in this life or how bad. Salvation (if Christianity is true) is giving freely. If it was based on merit (or "how you played the game") then Christ's death was in vain.


First you sort of give me the hint that I'm not a believer in Jesus(which I am), and then you come up with the statement above? "If" Christianity is true? You seem to want to condemn me and then throw in the big "if". What did that thar TV preacherman say?

Yes, salvation is giving freely, taking care of one's fellow man, taking care of our home the planet. ALL part of playing the game. I always am amazed about analogies. Now my friend, how would you list this Christian nation's scorecard in the things listed above?

See, I said I am a believer in Jesus. Yes, sure am. Call him a liar? No, perhaps some poor translation by man. Mohammed? Did I not read up above that he mentioned the light also?

Have you ever seen the light? I have. The light is good, pure, love, calming. Way above Christianity's understanding and teachings. I don't know about the others for I'm not very familiar.

Did Jesus say, "the only way" is through him, with him, or what? I have read various interpretations. Would you please explain which word it is? See, I don't know and those that profess they do don't either. Well, I'll say most. There may be some that have a little insight into the subject.

However, I knock NO ONE for what their "faith", "belief", or whatever is. I guess that is where I fail in that thar "preacherman"s test.

The greatest sin in the lack of understanding that we are all the sons and daughters of God, and we all have a piece of the Holy Spirit within us. Blasphemus, eh?

Namaste' and GOD bless


I'm not trying to offend you, so don't be. I didn't say you didn't believe in Jesus. But you are saying that all faiths are true, which isn't what the faiths themselves say.

Actually the greatest sin is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit (according to the Bible).

I never criticize a person personally, but I do criticize inaccurate interpretations of God's Word.

Have I ever seen the light? I remember when my brother and I were addicted to heroin and other drugs. My mother kicked us out and we were living on the street. One day we hit a point when we felt nothing could save us. We began searching for a way out.

One evening after we had gotten are high and were looking for some place to sleep a man began to follow us from a good distance. We kept walking up and down alleys and the parallel streets, but the man kept following us. All night long this happened, even until the next morning. When you are using drugs (not just heroin) you can be unrealistically paranoid (trust me on this), so my brother thought, myself included, that this weird guy was going to kill us. Later that morning the man finally came up to us. He said that he had been watching us for the past few days and was worried about us. We said we were ok and didn't need his help. He insisted that we come with him and he would give us breakfast, so we did. I can't remember the rest of the day very well, but I remember my salvation. This "weird" man had been following us all night long, hours and hours and hours... it turns out he had a wife and kid at home... he followed total strangers because he was concerned about them that much... if that isn't love I don't know what is.

Well anyway, he took us to his Church and there he preached his "fundamentalist" Christianity to us. He told us that Christ was the only way. That morning at his Church (it was a small Church and it was just him, my brother, and myself) he baptized us both. The only thing I remeber is my brother crying and crying and I remember his knees were shaking as he was walking into the water.

After that he signed us up for the "Teen Life Challenge" program of North Texas, which is a Christian drug rehab program. I can honestly say that neither my brother or myself have ever touched drugs since our salvation... unbelievable, but true. After the rehab (it was 18 months) my brother went to Colorado with a Christian friend he met at Life Challenge to help assist in some house Churches that were there and a Christian friend of mine let me stay at his little condo for free as I studied for my GED and looked for a job.

A lot of things happened in between and I became involved with the WBTC organization that distributes Bibles around the world. I am specifically involved with helping smuggle Bibles into China. Ever since my experience, "fundamentalist" Christians have provided for my every need. I have no money or savings, and still don't, but they have completely paid for my 4 year college and have bought every meal I have eaten since then as long as I have volunteered to help the Churches.

I think i'll just restate a statistic: over 150,000 Christians are executed or murdered every year for trying none other, but to spread their "Fundamentalist, Christ is the only way, faith."



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 01:53 AM
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"Yes, salvation is giving freely, taking care of one's fellow man, taking care of our home the planet. ALL part of playing the game. I always am amazed about analogies. Now my friend, how would you list this Christian nation's scorecard in the things listed above?"

***America's Christian scorecard:

millions freed in Europe during World War 1

millions freed in Europe during World War 2

HUNDREDS of millions freed in the Soviet Union (triggered by Reagan's unreasonably large defense spending)

millions freed in Kuwait

50+ million freed in Iraq and Afghanistan

40+ million saved because of American founded underground Churches in China (the number of Chinese in underground Churches continues to grow exponentially, the number will exceed 100 million in about three or four years)

100+ million saved because of American founded tribal Churches in Africa

Millions saved in the Middle East because of American tele-evangelism and radio evangelism

Disproportionally largest aid giver to Sub-Saharan Africa

Largest aid giver (by far) to the rest of the world

Largest contributer to counter AIDS and malaria in the entire world

Largest contributer to environmental conservationist organizations in the world



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 06:40 AM
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The case "Church of the Holy Trinity v U.S." in 1892 was a landmark ruling by the highest court in the land -- the Supreme Court that America is and always shall be a Christian nation. Below is the actual ruling:


Try again. The case was NOT about whether or not this was a Christian nation. You're reading a smidge of it. In Roe v. Wade, Blackmun said, "In addition, population growth, pollution, poverty, and racial overtones tend to complicate and not to simplify the problem." That must be the ruling right? I could pull out other similar quotes. Those aren't the ruling. The entire case was made up of twelve points being argued with a final overall verdict. Please tell me from link provided where this being a Christian nation was being argued. Thanks. I don't want you to be left bearing false witness.

Holy Trinity Church v. U.S. (1892)


When God says he is imutable he is refering to his moral standards, which he doesn't ever break. God being indwelt in the body of a man has nothing to do with his imutability.


G-d said he's not a man nor the son of man. Period. That has NOTHING to do with moral standards. Furthermore, do you know the definition of change? G-d becoming a man is a change. G-d said he doesn't change. Period.


This verse refers to the creator/father aspect of God not to the Christ/saviour aspect, nor the Spirit aspect.


There is no spirit or Christ aspect. That is a Christian interpretation.


"What it is....NT writers doing what they did best. Taking bits and pieces to make Jesus fit the mold." Could you please elaborate. Thank you.


Take a look at your responses to the verses. That is what I'm talking about. Everything is about Jesus because your whole religion and probably livlihood relies upon Jesus. If you woke up tomorrow and found out that with 100% certainty Jesus never existed, would you entire system of belief be destroyed? Sure it would because you've already said in a previous post that Christians are either right or wrong....the all or nothing phenomenon. If I woke up tomorrow and found that anyone in the Tanakh didn't exist, would it bother me? Not one bit. It wouldn't change my beliefs either. The wonderful thing about Judaism is that we are taught to question and to form our own personal relationship with G-d. We are given a means and those means are not reliant upon one single person...or even a person at all. All is not lost for me because as Jews, we are also taught certain things that you are not. We understand the horrible things in the Torah. We read every verse every year. We understand the influences of other cultures on the writings of our own. Does any of those things make a difference? No, because we believe that they are lessons to be learned regardless. I haven't met a Jew yet that places a lot of importance on the moshaich. Why is that? Because we aren't concerned with what will happen or if it will happen. We're concerned with making the world a better place on a day to day basis. That's the job we're to do in order to usher in the messianic era. What if the messianic era never comes? So be it. The time wasn't right. All Jews have to agree upon who it is. I certainly haven't been asked my opinion. There will be an ingathering first. I'm still in GA and not in Israel. So basically, if there truly is a promise, then I'll be a part of it one day. If there isn't, then I will just stay worm food.


Obviously Jesus is God's Son, but Joseph was Christ's legal father (which is what custom would accept). Whenever lineages are written in the Bible they usually go through the male and the male only, not the female, so Christ, through Joseph, can be traced all the way to the house of David.


All Jewish men were G-d's son. That means nothing special. And no, the legal customs would NOT accept that. I challenge you to show me in the "OT" or even in the Talmud where that was accepted practice. The Jewish heritage passes through the mother. The tribal heritage through the father. G-d would be Jesus' father therefore no tribal heritage. Also if I remember correctly, he was traced to the cursed line which also would remove him.


"out of thee shall ONE come forth unto Me that is to be RULER IN ISRAEL" That's all I have to say to that.


You obviously didn't bother to read the rest. Typical.


Sin=Death, Death=Sin. He has swallowed up death forever: he defeated sin once and for all. Salvation through Christ brings eternal life, which is the absence of death(sin).


That is a Christian twistation too. It's amazing to see just how little Jewish influence there was on Christianity.


The verse above is referring to the one-thousand year reign of Christ, which has not yet come.


Wrong. It's about world peace. It is said to happen after the war of Gog and Magog. Surely you're familiar with that at least?


He has. Death(sin) has been paid for and eternal fellowship with God is now possible.


Death being sin may be the version of Christianity but it's certainly not that of Judaism or the Jewish moshaich. Jesus died. He can't destroy death. The Jewish moshaich will destroy death and all will be living happily ever after. Notice I said ALL. Which shows that there is a different perception of G-d between Christianity and Judaism outside of the penis aspect.


The verse above is referring to the 7 years of peace, which will take place before the return of Christ as Lord of Lords and King of Kings.


Again, about world peace and nothing to do with Jesus. There is no second coming in Judaism. There is only a first. You can see evidence of that from the Jewish John the Baptist.


Virtually every verse you cite after what i've already covered refer to the one-thousand year reign of Christ, which is yet to come. He came first as a humble man and the perfect sacrifice to destroy death. And second, he will come to rule over the world and bring peace to all. When Christ returns a second time he will be shown to the world in all his glory and "every knee will bow under Heaven and earth."


If you say so. It's a good thing that the Jews don't rely so heavily on a moshaich. I would hate to fanatical as the fundies are.


By the way, might I ask why you are covering up God's name? Is that a Jewish custom?


It's respect and protection. In Deuteronomy, we were instructed to post the words of G-d on our doors, so we have a mezuzah. When we move, we must take it with us as it has one of the sacred names of G-d on it. Why do we take it? So that the name of G-d cannot be destroyed or desecrated. Just like when a Torah is no longer used for service, it is buried. So there is the issue that with print, the words can be printed and destroyed thus destroying the name of G-d. Some more Orthodox Jews won't even type out Jesus, Buddha, Muhammed, etc just out of respect for other peoples' beliefs and not having their deities, prophets, messengers names destroyed. I'm not Orthodox though so I stick to just G-d's.


And what is with Judaism and Seinfeld? All of my Jewish coleagues love that show. Just curious.


The show itself is about a group of Jews...well at least Jerry and Elaine.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 06:54 AM
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Osiris doesn't fulfill prophecy


Nor did Jesus by the list previously shown.


Jesus never called himself a Christian. Christianity is just the coined term for those who follow Christ. It doesn't matter what you call yourself as long as you follow Christ.


That wasn't what I asked. I asked where Jesus said Christians are the only true faith and where he called himself a Christian.


I don't know how to reply to your "fetish-Jesus" thing... but... ok.


That wasn't a fetish Jesus thing. It was a description of a Christian Bible.


How is Christian fundamentalism lazy?


Well, let's see. Be saved. You're done. You don't have to do anything else. You can go out and murders millions and it won't matter. There is no personal responsibility.


Christian fundamentalism teaches us that because Christ is the way we must get off our butts and bring people to salvation.


That's what I call justification for fundamentalism. You must bring people in to know that your choice is the right one.


In fact, if Christian fundamentalism was inaccurate and all religions were acceptable then Christians would only have to feed the poor and shelter the homeless and all that fun stuff.


You don't have to do anything except follow the laws of Noah.


***150,000 "lazy" fundamentalist Christians are executed every year across the world trying to bring all people to salvation.***


And? Maybe they should get the hint. But instead they choose to martyr themselves. Did Jesus take away your G-d given free will?


True Christian fundamentalism teaches the opposite of laziness.


I'll just disagree. I was raised a fundie. I've been there.


How is free salvation sad? Everyone is invited into the House of the Lord. None are turned away.


Answered above.


There dozens of official Roman records that clearly show that Christ exists. His existence isn't disputed. His claim to be God is what is disputed.


There are no official Roman records that exist during his time period to prove he exists. His existence has been disputed time and again. His own people who supposedly turned away this great individual doing miracles and whatnot didn't even think to write about him. Nothing from the Sanhedrin. Seems to me, in order to get to the claim of being G-d, the existence must be established.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 07:02 AM
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First you sort of give me the hint that I'm not a believer in Jesus(which I am), and then you come up with the statement above? "If" Christianity is true? You seem to want to condemn me and then throw in the big "if". What did that thar TV preacherman say?


"Better to be safe than sowry. Now send me money so I can get a new van. I asked the L-rd for a pink one."


Did Jesus say, "the only way" is through him, with him, or what?


IMO, no. He said, I am THE way which says to me that he is the way for that group of people.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 07:07 AM
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I'm not trying to offend you, so don't be. I didn't say you didn't believe in Jesus. But you are saying that all faiths are true, which isn't what the faiths themselves say.


All faiths are true. That doesn't mean that there is one that is right for everyone. Fundies are the only ones who can't accept people of other faiths and a large majority of their own. You see no problem with that?


I never criticize a person personally, but I do criticize inaccurate interpretations of God's Word.


Yet you do it.


One day we hit a point when we felt nothing could save us. We began searching for a way out.


I have drawn the conclusion that people who come to fundamentalism no matter the religion are either born into or come because they are needy.


I think i'll just restate a statistic: over 150,000 Christians are executed or murdered every year for trying none other, but to spread their "Fundamentalist, Christ is the only way, faith."


And there's your answer on why they are killed.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 07:45 AM
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Nappy, what you apparently don't understand when I say I've seen THE LIGHT is I mean it literally. It is a very humbling experience. It crosses all boundaries, and encompasses ALL.

You go and quote me a Bible verse about the greatest sin. Man, oh man. Again, one must comprehend what I try to say. However, you are quite correct when using GOD's name in vain.

If one went into the space shuttle and looked down at this planet from 250 miles in space what does one see? Do they see a world divided? Do they see a world where one religion claims it is the only way?

Yea, I know about the drug stuff from many years ago. However, not as deep as you. See my friend, that was your hell. We all have it.

By the way, the LIGHT, didn't bother to ask me about my "faith" or whatever. One does know why it is called "Faith" doesn't he?

Mine went from some sort of faith in God(you call it agnosticism) to KNOWING about God and the eternal light. I feel priviliged for being picked. I try to get the message out for those that will OPEN up and listen. I don't need 2,000 years of man twisting the truth. "Religion" is a great contolling device. However, most people who are "religious" are good people doing good. It is the one's shoving things down my throat which I know are incorrect that I rebel against.

You gave great stats on WWI and WWII etc. However, these were not wars waged by Christianity or any other religion. They were wars waged when some egotist thought their way was better.

Again I ask about us taking care of our temporary home. Is this country doing that? Is this country doing right in turning our noses from our problems? Why do we give the elderly a choice of taking their medicine or having a wonderful Happy Meal at McDonalds?

Here is one of the BIG ONES. Why do some "Christians" want people to suffer from terrible diseases, by paralyzed, or whatever for they don't want a petri dish used that may help? A petri dish that would be tossed in the TRASH otherwise? GOD gave man the ability. Certain people don't want man to use the ability GOD gave them.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 08:46 AM
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Mine went from some sort of faith in God(you call it agnosticism) to KNOWING about God and the eternal light.


You seem to have great inner peace. It's amazing to go from belief to knowledge as experience is so powerful.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 12:41 PM
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"every knee will bow under Heaven and earth."


God wants us to bow? Why would he want a piece of himself to bow to him?

Yes, I am very much at peace with myself. I was having a very difficult time of it with health, and marital problems that ensued because of. I often went out and sat on the doo dad where water passes under the driveway. One night I had had enough, and looked to the heavens and sincerely asked for GOD's help. He must have been behind for it took several days to get to me.

Of course, then my wife could not understand my sudden change in my spirituality. She at first thought I was some sort of nut. Now, however, she sees me printing things and scouring. She realizes my new inner peace, and the "war" has ended.

If one looks at my moniker over there I call it a state of "frustrated bliss". I'm sure one understands that.

The great thing is the inner peace. The knowing that I will not rot in hell. The knowing that this place is held together by the greatest physicist there is. The knowing that each and every one of us are part of this energy. The knowing that perhaps someday....

I no longer fear death, and really not much. Dogs have given up on me, and some that are mean cusses actually let me come up and pet. One lady had her boxer escape one night, and he came running down to me. She was in an absolute state of shock when he calmly stopped and let me kneel down and pet. She stated, "You are the only one that he has ever done that to." I just smiled. Kinda like walking and all the sudden 20 butterflies are swirling around you for a long period of time. Strange? Yea, for some.

The "frustrated bliss"? Trying to get through to people that have "religion" ingrained into them. I have been accused of blasphemy. I have been told that when my judgement day comes in front of Jesus...

Yea, I'm still human and get mad and upset etc. about everyday life. However, the knowing of "temporary" status is great. Just wish more people would open their heart up. The key to the whole "ballgame". I had to use quotations for analogy sake.

Namaste' and GOD bless

Namaste' and GOD bless



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430

The case "Church of the Holy Trinity v U.S." in 1892 was a landmark ruling by the highest court in the land -- the Supreme Court that America is and always shall be a Christian nation. Below is the actual ruling:


Try again. The case was NOT about whether or not this was a Christian nation. You're reading a smidge of it. In Roe v. Wade, Blackmun said, "In addition, population growth, pollution, poverty, and racial overtones tend to complicate and not to simplify the problem." That must be the ruling right? I could pull out other similar quotes. Those aren't the ruling. The entire case was made up of twelve points being argued with a final overall verdict. Please tell me from link provided where this being a Christian nation was being argued. Thanks. I don't want you to be left bearing false witness.

Holy Trinity Church v. U.S. (1892)


When God says he is imutable he is refering to his moral standards, which he doesn't ever break. God being indwelt in the body of a man has nothing to do with his imutability.


G-d said he's not a man nor the son of man. Period. That has NOTHING to do with moral standards. Furthermore, do you know the definition of change? G-d becoming a man is a change. G-d said he doesn't change. Period.


This verse refers to the creator/father aspect of God not to the Christ/saviour aspect, nor the Spirit aspect.


There is no spirit or Christ aspect. That is a Christian interpretation.


"What it is....NT writers doing what they did best. Taking bits and pieces to make Jesus fit the mold." Could you please elaborate. Thank you.


Take a look at your responses to the verses. That is what I'm talking about. Everything is about Jesus because your whole religion and probably livlihood relies upon Jesus. If you woke up tomorrow and found out that with 100% certainty Jesus never existed, would you entire system of belief be destroyed? Sure it would because you've already said in a previous post that Christians are either right or wrong....the all or nothing phenomenon. If I woke up tomorrow and found that anyone in the Tanakh didn't exist, would it bother me? Not one bit. It wouldn't change my beliefs either. The wonderful thing about Judaism is that we are taught to question and to form our own personal relationship with G-d. We are given a means and those means are not reliant upon one single person...or even a person at all. All is not lost for me because as Jews, we are also taught certain things that you are not. We understand the horrible things in the Torah. We read every verse every year. We understand the influences of other cultures on the writings of our own. Does any of those things make a difference? No, because we believe that they are lessons to be learned regardless. I haven't met a Jew yet that places a lot of importance on the moshaich. Why is that? Because we aren't concerned with what will happen or if it will happen. We're concerned with making the world a better place on a day to day basis. That's the job we're to do in order to usher in the messianic era. What if the messianic era never comes? So be it. The time wasn't right. All Jews have to agree upon who it is. I certainly haven't been asked my opinion. There will be an ingathering first. I'm still in GA and not in Israel. So basically, if there truly is a promise, then I'll be a part of it one day. If there isn't, then I will just stay worm food.


Obviously Jesus is God's Son, but Joseph was Christ's legal father (which is what custom would accept). Whenever lineages are written in the Bible they usually go through the male and the male only, not the female, so Christ, through Joseph, can be traced all the way to the house of David.


All Jewish men were G-d's son. That means nothing special. And no, the legal customs would NOT accept that. I challenge you to show me in the "OT" or even in the Talmud where that was accepted practice. The Jewish heritage passes through the mother. The tribal heritage through the father. G-d would be Jesus' father therefore no tribal heritage. Also if I remember correctly, he was traced to the cursed line which also would remove him.


"out of thee shall ONE come forth unto Me that is to be RULER IN ISRAEL" That's all I have to say to that.


You obviously didn't bother to read the rest. Typical.


Sin=Death, Death=Sin. He has swallowed up death forever: he defeated sin once and for all. Salvation through Christ brings eternal life, which is the absence of death(sin).


That is a Christian twistation too. It's amazing to see just how little Jewish influence there was on Christianity.


The verse above is referring to the one-thousand year reign of Christ, which has not yet come.


Wrong. It's about world peace. It is said to happen after the war of Gog and Magog. Surely you're familiar with that at least?


He has. Death(sin) has been paid for and eternal fellowship with God is now possible.


Death being sin may be the version of Christianity but it's certainly not that of Judaism or the Jewish moshaich. Jesus died. He can't destroy death. The Jewish moshaich will destroy death and all will be living happily ever after. Notice I said ALL. Which shows that there is a different perception of G-d between Christianity and Judaism outside of the penis aspect.


The verse above is referring to the 7 years of peace, which will take place before the return of Christ as Lord of Lords and King of Kings.


Again, about world peace and nothing to do with Jesus. There is no second coming in Judaism. There is only a first. You can see evidence of that from the Jewish John the Baptist.


Virtually every verse you cite after what i've already covered refer to the one-thousand year reign of Christ, which is yet to come. He came first as a humble man and the perfect sacrifice to destroy death. And second, he will come to rule over the world and bring peace to all. When Christ returns a second time he will be shown to the world in all his glory and "every knee will bow under Heaven and earth."


If you say so. It's a good thing that the Jews don't rely so heavily on a moshaich. I would hate to fanatical as the fundies are.


By the way, might I ask why you are covering up God's name? Is that a Jewish custom?


It's respect and protection. In Deuteronomy, we were instructed to post the words of G-d on our doors, so we have a mezuzah. When we move, we must take it with us as it has one of the sacred names of G-d on it. Why do we take it? So that the name of G-d cannot be destroyed or desecrated. Just like when a Torah is no longer used for service, it is buried. So there is the issue that with print, the words can be printed and destroyed thus destroying the name of G-d. Some more Orthodox Jews won't even type out Jesus, Buddha, Muhammed, etc just out of respect for other peoples' beliefs and not having their deities, prophets, messengers names destroyed. I'm not Orthodox though so I stick to just G-d's.


And what is with Judaism and Seinfeld? All of my Jewish coleagues love that show. Just curious.


The show itself is about a group of Jews...well at least Jerry and Elaine.


This is a good debate.
I have typed a respone to each of your points in order, point by point.

So what if the case wasn't originally about whether this was a Christian nation... that verdict is still given in the final summarization (in fact, the second to last paragraph of your citation). By the way, no one is saying that if this is a Christian country that you have to be a Christian, we are saying that it is officially Christian. Just as if a country has an official language... it doesn't mean you have to speak it.

If Christianity is true then there IS A CHRIST/SON ASPECT who is one and the same as the Father, but is at the same time different, who became "fully man, yet fully God." The Father aspect of God never became man just as he said, so we are both correct in our conclusion.

When Christ says he is the "Son of Man" he is not being literal. It is a metaphor signifying that he is a servant.

"Take a look at your responses to the verses. That is what I'm talking about. Everything is about Jesus because your whole religion and probably livlihood relies upon Jesus. If you woke up tomorrow and found out that with 100% certainty Jesus never existed, would you entire system of belief be destroyed? Sure it would because you've already said in a previous post that Christians are either right or wrong....the all or nothing phenomenon. If I woke up tomorrow and found that anyone in the Tanakh didn't exist, would it bother me? Not one bit. It wouldn't change my beliefs either. The wonderful thing about Judaism is that we are taught to question and to form our own personal relationship with G-d. We are given a means and those means are not reliant upon one single person...or even a person at all."

Your whole argument above doesn't hold any water. Everything IS about the Christ in the Christian faith, but Christ is God. The Jewish faith is based on the same God in a different aspect: the Father/creator, but is based just as much on the Father/creator aspect as Christianity is based on the Christ/saviour aspect. Without Christ the Christian faith would fail. Without Yahweh the Jewish faith would fail. To suggest that Christianity is somehow not as stable as the Jewish faith is not accurate. Your second to last sentence can be used by Christians too.

The Old Testament scriptures that detail family (or as you like to call it: tribal) lineage DO GO THROUGH MEN AND MEN ONLY except one or two instances. After all... the Son of Man will be of the tribe of Judah, of the House of David... and through Joseph he is. You cannot dispute the fact that according to the Bible through Joseph he can be traced to David. And the New Testament obviously intends to connect Jesus to David through Joseph because that is how the New Testament traces his lineage back to David.

I did read the rest of your verse and comment, but I simply selected the part of the verse that is a rebuttal to your statement originally.

When Adam and Eve SINNED, DEATH entered the world. SIN=Death; Death=SIN.

You're right; it is about world peace. After the apocolyptic battle in Israel, Christ will return and reign triumphant for one-thousand years. World peace will ensue. I am completely familiar with Gog and Magog.

He first destroyed sin as the divine sacrifice. And he will destroy death when he returns if you are so concerned about the literal interpretation.

The Jewish faith never says there will not be a second coming of Christ, it says the Messiah will come, but it doesn't say how many times. Cite a verse that says he will not come twice...

I am not saying that Judaism has to agree with Christian interpretation per say, I am just argueing that Judaism can verify Christianity and vice versa.



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430

Osiris doesn't fulfill prophecy


Nor did Jesus by the list previously shown.


Jesus never called himself a Christian. Christianity is just the coined term for those who follow Christ. It doesn't matter what you call yourself as long as you follow Christ.


That wasn't what I asked. I asked where Jesus said Christians are the only true faith and where he called himself a Christian.


I don't know how to reply to your "fetish-Jesus" thing... but... ok.


That wasn't a fetish Jesus thing. It was a description of a Christian Bible.


How is Christian fundamentalism lazy?


Well, let's see. Be saved. You're done. You don't have to do anything else. You can go out and murders millions and it won't matter. There is no personal responsibility.


Christian fundamentalism teaches us that because Christ is the way we must get off our butts and bring people to salvation.


That's what I call justification for fundamentalism. You must bring people in to know that your choice is the right one.


In fact, if Christian fundamentalism was inaccurate and all religions were acceptable then Christians would only have to feed the poor and shelter the homeless and all that fun stuff.


You don't have to do anything except follow the laws of Noah.


***150,000 "lazy" fundamentalist Christians are executed every year across the world trying to bring all people to salvation.***


And? Maybe they should get the hint. But instead they choose to martyr themselves. Did Jesus take away your G-d given free will?


True Christian fundamentalism teaches the opposite of laziness.


I'll just disagree. I was raised a fundie. I've been there.


How is free salvation sad? Everyone is invited into the House of the Lord. None are turned away.


Answered above.


There dozens of official Roman records that clearly show that Christ exists. His existence isn't disputed. His claim to be God is what is disputed.


There are no official Roman records that exist during his time period to prove he exists. His existence has been disputed time and again. His own people who supposedly turned away this great individual doing miracles and whatnot didn't even think to write about him. Nothing from the Sanhedrin. Seems to me, in order to get to the claim of being G-d, the existence must be established.



I have already shown and demonstrated how a Christian can effectively show that Jesus did fulfill prophecy:

1. Through Joseph he can be traced directly to David "Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli...the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David," Luke 3:23-31

2. Was born in Bethleham "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." Micah 5:2

3. Was speared in the side "They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one mourns for an only son." Zechariah 12:10

*****4. Not a bone was broken, Hands and feet were pierced, lots were casted for his clothing "a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing." Psalms 22:11-18

5. John the Baptist calls him the Son of God "A voice of one calling: 'In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.'" Isaiah 40:3

6. Despised by people "He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Isaiah 53:3



He never said "Christians" are the one true faith. He said a belief in the Father, a belief in Christ, and a belief in the Spirit are together the ONE and ONLY God is the one true faith. You can call it whatever you want: Christianity, "The Way," Jesus Freaks, it doesn't matter, but if the Gospels are true then a faith that Christ alone is the way to the Father can be trusted as accurate interpretation.

No comment on the fetish Jesus thing. Interesting though.

Christ teaches that salvation is given freely, but that isn't the end. Christians are obligated by Christ to fight the good fight: to bring the lost to salvation by showing the love of the Messiah. "So shall we continue to live in sin? By no means!" Christians are obligated to clothe the poor, feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, and stand for peace and equality. Don't forget about how accepting Christ was of women despite a culture where women were stoned to death. He openly forgave a prostitute of all her sins in front of a table of hypocrytical Pharisees... who were by any measure... astonished. He accepted a woman who had been divorced several times, and offered her "living water" that only he could provide. Christian fundamentalism is actually very unlazy. Just think about the MILLIONS of Christian missionaries across the world who are persecuted daily and hundreds of thousands who are killed for what they believe. That's not laziness.

The martyrs know what FREE will is and have FREELY chosen to follow Christ... even to death. They have given millions of hopeless people hope.

I will openly admit that there are large Christian congregations that ARE lazy. That mock Christ, by not following his teachings. By not reaping the harvest. If you criticize them then I will criticize them with you. I will defend however, the Christians who are persecuted and die believing that Christ is the only way, because Christ himself says he is. Perhaps he is right. What if?

I don't want to debate Christ's existence because that is a deep and detailed argument. If you seriously think he didn't then I would suggest reading Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ." This book establishes how factual his existence really was.

[edit on 2-6-2005 by nappyhead]



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430

First you sort of give me the hint that I'm not a believer in Jesus(which I am), and then you come up with the statement above? "If" Christianity is true? You seem to want to condemn me and then throw in the big "if". What did that thar TV preacherman say?


"Better to be safe than sowry. Now send me money so I can get a new van. I asked the L-rd for a pink one."


Did Jesus say, "the only way" is through him, with him, or what?


IMO, no. He said, I am THE way which says to me that he is the way for that group of people.


"I am the way, the truth, and the light NO ONE comes to the Father, but by me."

[edit on 2-6-2005 by nappyhead]



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 03:22 PM
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"I am the way, the truth, and the light NO ONE come to the Father, but by me."

A-MEN



posted on Jun, 2 2005 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by Shonet1430

I'm not trying to offend you, so don't be. I didn't say you didn't believe in Jesus. But you are saying that all faiths are true, which isn't what the faiths themselves say.


All faiths are true. That doesn't mean that there is one that is right for everyone. Fundies are the only ones who can't accept people of other faiths and a large majority of their own. You see no problem with that?


I never criticize a person personally, but I do criticize inaccurate interpretations of God's Word.


Yet you do it.


One day we hit a point when we felt nothing could save us. We began searching for a way out.


I have drawn the conclusion that people who come to fundamentalism no matter the religion are either born into or come because they are needy.


I think i'll just restate a statistic: over 150,000 Christians are executed or murdered every year for trying none other, but to spread their "Fundamentalist, Christ is the only way, faith."


And there's your answer on why they are killed.


I am rebutting in order by point.

Can you back up your claim that all faiths are true based on scripture?
Christianity says or infers countless times that it is the only true faith.
Islam is the same way.
So is Judaism: "There will be NO other gods before me."
"Don't make FALSE idols." But I thought all faiths were true?
Why is it wrong to make an idol and worship it if all faiths are true? Why is Baal a false god? Why are sorcerors and mediums evil? Satanic cults must be true... they must be full of the "light."

I am a fundie and I can accept all people even if they are not Christians, but that doesn't stop me from teaching them the message of free salvation, grace, mercy, and peace that can only be gained through Christ, the Messiah. I accept and invite all people -- Jews and Muslims to come worship in the local house Churches.

Those that haven't heard the Word, or will never be given the chance will be judged based on conscience, but those that have heard it and have rejected it will have no excuse before God.

Can you quote me on criticizing someone personally? If not then you shouldn't say I do. If I do then I apologize.

Good conclusion you make. You are probably right, but that doesn't make Christian fundamentalism (as long as it is done according to Christ's teaching) wrong.

Yes, 150,000 are killed each because of their "fundamentalist" views of Christ's teachings, but that doesn't make it wrong, and it certainly doesn't make the sacrifice in vain.




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