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UFO Debunker / Disinformant Philip J. Klass.

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posted on Mar, 19 2020 @ 09:36 AM
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originally posted by: mirageman

They seemed to enjoy the cut and thrust of the debate between each other knowing full well neither would change the others mind.


Sounds familiar to some on these boards mate.


I think maybe you're right about the enjoyment factor as they did engage in a series of cheeky wagers - the underhand way Klass attempted to undermine Friedman (see link above) does speak volumes about the man's moral integrity though.

Some of Stanton's archival work was excellent and always liked the way he exposed UFO debunker (and Philip's mentor) Donald Menzel as being closely tied to US Intelligence agencies as a cryptographer (not an astronomer) - apparently Menzel also had a long standing relationship with the NSA and in his letter to JFK he also mentions being in the employ of the CIA - really makes you wonder who the 'snake oil salesman' actually was.

He also conducted some great archival work exposing how the Secretary of the Air Force lied to the American public about BBSR14 which found that 'the better the quality of the sighting report, the more likely it was unexplainable'; that 'UNKNOWNS were observed for longer than KNOWNS' and that less than 2% of reports fell in the hoax category.




link





posted on Mar, 20 2020 @ 02:23 PM
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originally posted by: Sublant

Proving everyone who think of him as a small and spiteful man, right once again.


Yup, got any thoughts on this APU research presentation mate? Interesting how Klass and Menzel finally wangled their way into Project Bluebook under the reign of Major Hector Quintanilla - also interesting that during that period there was some truly ridiculous UFO explanations (and pretty nasty character assassination of UFO witnesses).



"During Air Force Major Hector Quintanilla's tenure as Blue Book's director, the flag of the utter nonsense school was flying at its highest on the mast". 

Dr J Allen Hynek, Chief Scientific Consultant for Air Force Investigations of UFOs from 1948 until 1969

The UFO Debunkery of Major Hector Quintanilla



Also interesting that Condon was heavily influenced by Klass and there's an intriguing statement below concerning Ivan T. Sanderson (who had close ties to British Naval Intelligence) which indicates they also might have had Condon 'over a barrel'.



"Ivan Sanderson knew Condon and the story was as you know that he was asked to do a 'job' or take the consequences of bring investigated for his past. Whatever the motivation he undoubtedly did a good job for his unseen masters"
Berthold Schwarz M.D.





posted on Mar, 21 2020 @ 02:08 AM
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I started nuts-and-bolts but had to open my mind up to high strangeness as I got more information, and now I feel the more I learn the less I actually know. I'm open and hopefully have a skeptical eye.

Klass reminded me of the saying that atheists have the same amount of blind faith as the true believers do. Sometimes the best thing is to say "I just don't know". Klass was never capable of that on the air, always just and a shrill advocate. And he was probably a good soldier for the government pushing their agenda as we all suspected.

That said, I did have some brief but interesting encounters with Klass in the 80s that showed to me that while his actions could be vindictive and ruthless as is well documented now, he also could have an unexpectedly impish, self-deprecating sense of humor about himself. I hear the the Friedman personal archives have some savagely funny letters between the two. I believe it.



posted on Mar, 21 2020 @ 05:45 AM
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originally posted by: serya

I started nuts-and-bolts but had to open my mind up to high strangeness as I got more information, and now I feel the more I learn the less I actually know. I'm open and hopefully have a skeptical eye.


Serya, appreciate the thoughtful reply (well any reply really) and really could not agree more with what you wrote there.

When it comes to high strangeness have been looking into UFO reports involving cryptids this last year and it really is quite a shocker just how many are out there (MIB reports and time anomalies also associated) - also lots of associative aspects like strange mists, EM fields, humming noises, the Oz factor etc. and lots of analogues between 'alien abduction' and ye olde Fae lore (perhaps Keel had it right all along with his old window area superspectfum concept).



originally posted by: serya

Klass reminded me of the saying that atheists have the same amount of blind faith as the true believers do. Sometimes the best thing is to say "I just don't know". Klass was never capable of that on the air, always just and a shrill advocate. And he was probably a good soldier for the government pushing their agenda as we all suspected.


Yes and hats off to Kathleen Marden for her research at the AP archives - she's really did an excellent job there and uncovered some great info that a lot of people suspected for a very long time.

Hope the link works - here are some excerpts from her book:

books.google.es... l=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjj_6rOyKPoAhUDxoUKHcEJBp8Q6AEwCHoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=csicop ufo klass&f=false

• Have also been going through specific UFO case files involving Philip Klass and some of his 'explanations' are bordering on the criminally negligent - really was put in mind of this quote from Hitchens describing Kissenger.



"If you gave the man an enema you could bury him in a matchbox"





posted on Mar, 21 2020 @ 06:22 AM
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a reply to: karl 12


(perhaps Keel had it right all along with his old window area superspectfum concept)


I think Keel and Vallée had the right idea in collapsing the paranormal phenomena zoo into a smaller set of ideas to consider. Passport to Magonia was a classic.

IMO, we need a new generation of Keels and Vallées to carry this approach forward if possible.

Cheers



posted on Mar, 21 2020 @ 07:26 AM
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originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2

I think Keel and Vallée had the right idea in collapsing the paranormal phenomena zoo into a smaller set of ideas to consider. Passport to Magonia was a classic.


So do I and indeed it was mate (it's available free here in PDF format if anyone wants to read it) - would say works by contemporary researchers like Joshua Cutchin and Paul Sinclair also deserve a mention and it seems even original nuts and bolts guy Ted Phillips changed his tune towards the end of his life (Vid).

Regarding the thread subject just been re-watching this presentation about the life and very sad death of Dr James E. McDonald and it really is a great one.

Amongst many other things thought it pretty fascinating how Mcdonald exposed the CIA's dictation of USAF UFO policy whilst working for ONI - also the word 'reprehensible' is used when describing what Klass and Low actually did to him.



See 10:00



Cheers.
edit on 22-3-2020 by karl 12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 22 2020 @ 03:42 AM
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Following on from the FBI's suspicion that Klass was a Soviet asset (they even raided and searched his apartment) ..



Back in the 1960s, Klass developed a close relationship with a member of the Soviet embassy in Washington, DC and was suspected by the FBI to have been a Soviet asset. What it looks like is that the intelligence community used this against Klass to enlist his services toward full-time UFO debunking efforts. 



and following on from this curious quote about Dr Condon and his 'unseen masters '..



"Ivan Sanderson knew Condon and the story was as you know that he was asked to do a 'job' or take the consequences of being investigated for his past. Whatever the motivation he undoubtedly did a good job for his unseen masters" 

Berthold Schwarz M.D.



Turns out (justly or not) that on March 1st, 1948 the House Committee on Un-American Activities Chairman J. Parnell Thomas issued a report which stated Dr Condon was..

"one of the weakest links in our atomic security.”

Condon was Oppenheimer’s assistant so it's also interesting that his passport was revoked just before an upcoming trip to the USSR in1945 and that in 1947 the Washington Times published news articles which probed Condon’s ties to organizations HUAC considered 'communist fronts'.


Science, Security And The Cold War


Suppose there was quite a lot of hysteria back then but it's also intriguing that 'Klass heavily influenced Condon' (whose report was instrumental in closing down official U.S. UFO investigations) and that both men earlier in their lives were suspected by the authorities of Soviet-sponsored (atomic?) espionage.

edit on 22-3-2020 by karl 12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 23 2020 @ 06:15 AM
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originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
a reply to: karl 12

IMO, we need a new generation of Keels and Vallées to carry this approach forward if possible.


Too right mate, I'd also say we need more folks like Mac Tonnies, Kenny Young, Ted Phillips, Michael Swords, Paul Dean, David Marler etc. and other scientists with balls like NASA's Paul Hill, Stanford's Peter Sturrock and atmospherical physicist Jim Mcdonald.

Anyway there's a pretty great remastered 1966 Keel lecture below (if you haven't seen it already) taken from the Wendy Connors archive where he describes being 'angry and appalled' after reading the full uncensored text from the Robertson panel - it really was a complete sham.. and a very significant one as it led to the implementation of the military wide directive JANAP 146 which basically made the reporting of UFOs to the American public an act of espionage (fines of up to ten thousand dollars and/or one to ten years in prison).

Also some good observations about Type 1 UFO reports from the Keel lecture (10pm on Wednesday is the optimum time to see one) and freaky info on UFO flaps, landings and the 'clumsy' behaviour of occupants.





edit on 23-3-2020 by karl 12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 23 2020 @ 06:45 AM
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a reply to: karl 12

One of the things I've wondered about were the (if any) conclusions of the group Vallée called the "Invisible College". I know he wrote a book with that title, but there have been 45 years since to accumulate new data ...

Cheers



posted on Mar, 23 2020 @ 02:07 PM
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a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Yes mate I think we've all wondered about that one and there's some great commentary over on this thread and specific statements here but don't know if he/they ever concluded anything.

Did think his recent(ish) CAIPAN presentation about UAP research strategy was a very good one though (especially regarding 'future steps').





Proceedings of the CAIPAN Paris workshop on UAP/UFOs.


Cheers.
edit on 23-3-2020 by karl 12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2020 @ 05:50 AM
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The Debunkers vs. the UFO Menace - Part one

The Debunkers vs. the UFO Menace - Part two



Following on from the info at the links above and the exquisite irony of (suspected Russian agent) Philip Klass linking UFO researchers with 'communist subversion' there's some very interesting reading below concerning Philip and the ideological cult CSICOP (or CSI as it's known nowadays).



Regarding CSICOP [now CSI], Hansen examines the possibility that the skeptical organization was infiltrated early on by a small but determined group of U.S. government-affiliated operatives, whose true motives have far more to do with disinformation than skepticism.

He writes, “[The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal] is an organization of people who oppose what they contend is pseudo-science...CSICOP, contrary to its impressive-sounding title, does not sponsor scientific research. On the contrary, it’s main function has been to oppose scientific research, especially in areas such as psychic phenomena and UFOs, two topics that, coincidentally or not, have been of demonstrated interest to the U.S. intelligence community over the decades. Instead, CSICOP devotes nearly all of its resources to influencing the American public via the mass media.” 

Hansen continues, “CSICOP can accurately be described as a propaganda organization because it does not take anything approaching an objective position regarding UFOs. The organization’s stance is militantly anti-UFO research and it works hard to see that the news media broadcast its views whenever possible. When the subject of UFOs surfaces, either in the news media or any other public forum, CSICOP members turn out rapidly to add their own spin to whatever is being said.

Through its “Council for Media Integrity” CSICOP maintains close ties with the editorial staffs of such influential science publications as Scientific American, Nature, and New Scientist. Consequently, it’s not too hard to understand why balanced UFO articles seldom appear in those [magazines].”

Hansen further notes, “CSICOP’s public stance on UFOs is best personified by [the late] Philip J. Klass, head of the organization’s UFO Subcommittee. Klass isn’t a scientist. In fact, his education is in electrical engineering. After graduation from Iowa State University in 1941, he went to work for the avionics division of General Electric, one of the nation’s largest weapons and nuclear energy contractors. In 1952, Klass joined the aerospace trade publication Aviation Week & Space Technology, where he has often written about ‘black budget’ military projects such as those covertly funded by the CIA...Over the decades, Klass has made a name for himself publicly sparring with UFO researchers and injecting his particular spin on UFOs into the mass media at every opportunity, not always accurately or with much scientific merit...Despite his lack of scientific credentials, Klass has enjoyed remarkable popularity with the news media.” 

Hansen might have added that Klass’ long-time employer, Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine, has a remarkable track-record of scooping its competition by publishing articles based, in part, on information provided by government insiders. Indeed, Aviation Week may be considered as a conduit to the public for information originating from many of the key players in the aptly-named military/industrial complex. 

To illustrate the rather cozy relationship between the magazine and the intelligence community, in particular, I earlier noted that Klass once boasted in a private letter that he could cite as character references both Admiral Bobby R. Inman (USN Ret.)—the former Director of the National Security Agency, who also held Deputy Director positions at both the Central Intelligence Agency and the Defense Intelligence Agency—and Lt. General Daniel O. Graham (USA Ret.), the former Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency and former Deputy Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. In the letter, Klass stated that “Both men have worked with me and gotten to know me [through] my efforts for Aviation Week.”

Hansen, whose diligent journalistic investigation of CSICOP goes well beyond that conducted by any UFO researcher, observes, “If the [CIA’s] Robertson Panel had wanted to set up a front organization to debunk the UFO phenomenon, it could have hardly done a better job than to infiltrate CSICOP and encourage its media management activities. Perhaps its not surprising, then, that Philip Klass has occasionally been charged with being a covert government agent, a charge he has vigorously denied...” 


Hansen goes on to note that during a 1994 confrontation with Klass, at a CSICOP meeting in Seattle, the UFO debunker first said that an official UFO cover-up would not be possible because the U.S. government could not keep such an important secret. When Hansen challenged that assertion, and cited examples of other important secrets which the government had successfully kept from public view—such as decades-old cryptographic-related programs—Klass apparently reversed himself and admitted that some secrets could indeed be kept long-term. Then, in what was arguably a very telling comment, Klass told Hansen that some secrets should be kept, for reasons relating to national security. He went on to mention that his employer, Aviation Week, had once agreed to keep secret its knowledge of the SR-71 spy plane, at the government’s request. If nothing else, this admission by Klass only further illustrates the magazine’s cooperative, mutually-beneficial relationship with the various agencies and departments of the U.S. government—in which one hand washes the other, so to speak. 

“So,” Hanson summarized, “under cross-examination, Klass had gone from claiming the government can’t keep secrets to saying that it can, it must, and even that his own publication had been complicit in keeping government secrets. Klass did not appear very happy about the course this conversation had taken and he soon reverted back to his [initial] claim that UFOs did not exist...A charitable view of Klass is that he is simply a zealot, another of those for whom scientific dogma supplies the reassuring psychological bedrock that others find in religious fundamentalism. When confronted with evidence that calls into question his core beliefs, Klass responds—as any fundamentalist would—by rejecting the evidence. Thus, his duplicity can be accounted for by human nature. One does not need to resort to more conspiratorial explanations.” 

“On the other hand,” Hanson continued, “Klass also has many of the qualifications one would expect in a deep-cover propagandist. He has a history of working for the secretive military-industrial complex, a demonstrated aptitude for duplicity, a District of Columbia address, remarkable mass-media savvy and success, an evident belief in the necessity of government secrecy and, of course, cover as a journalist with Aviation Week.” 


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posted on Apr, 1 2020 @ 08:29 AM
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Watergate journalist Carl Bernstein on the CIA/media connection (published in Rolling Stone magazine - 1977).


The CIA And Media


Excerpt:



The CIA even ran a formal training program in the 1950s to teach its agents to be journalists. Intelligence officers were "taught to make noises like reporters," explained a high CIA official, and were then placed in major news organizations with help from management.

'These were the guys who went through the ranks and were told, "You're going to be a journalist," the CIA official said. Relatively few of the 400-some relationships described in Agency files followed that pattern, however; most involved persons who were already bona fide journalists when they began undertaking tasks for the Agency.




Relevant as it's same year as the Robertson Panel.



The Agency's dealings with the press began during the earliest stages of the Cold War. Allen Dulles, who became director of the CIA in 1953, sought to establish a recruiting-and-cover capability within America's most prestigious journalistic institutions.



posted on Apr, 1 2020 @ 10:22 PM
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The self same censorship by default goes on on this very forum and is directly linked to a shed load of your threads Karl. The "usual suspects" who will spend a week and 100 posts bleating about a video no-one really takes seriously are usually totally MIA from your threads. The "anyone can do that with CGI crowd" who have never made a single CGI video to prove that in their lives.

It's the self same obfuscation tactic, have everyone talking about making pancakes for the space brothers rather than the more serious cases. The thing that many miss is that, some of the more serious cases are also the almost laughably strange ones. I've said it before I'll say it again, people who make careers in the military , the secuirty forces and politics are nearly always control freaks and the UFO enigma is like nails down a blackboard to them cos it literally at times, is seemingly winding them up on a level they can only imagine.

People such as Klass and Ridpath are merely cheap useful idiots who do other's dirty work for peanuts and end up being discarded when their use is over. In the end the joke is on them doubly, the UFOs are still here and they end up just seriously bitter.

Unfortunately for Klass' ego many within the field have reached a tentative conclusion as to the subject and people such as Klass' head would explode at it. It sure isn't going to be what a lot of people wish to hear it however, it's the current theory that fits the known observations. That is, the smallest percentage of UFO incidents involve genuine extraterrestrial intelligences, a large number are related to a "world next door" explanation and then, a huge number are an interaction humans have had since our inception with what we call the "wyrd".

The classic snark of "Why do they travel all this way to talk to some backwoods hick and never land on the White House lawn"? Just maybe, they have seen what the sort of people who want to "talk to them" are really after from the governments of the world and quite logically think "Christ on a bike, what a bunch of self absorbed absolute pribbling plume plucked pignuts, let's go talk to some people a tad less up their own jacksie?"

The funny thing is, a USAF backed documentary from 1956 was actually disclosure, "Yes they exist, we don't know what they are", somehow, the vast majority have just failed to spot it.If you don;t believe me, watch it and yes, notice how the recreation of the Washington DC incident is almost exactly that depicted in the last episode of season one of the current series "Project Bluebook".



posted on Apr, 1 2020 @ 10:30 PM
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To add, this is the timeline of the "Mantell Incident" taken from that video where the actual witnesses speak.

January 7th 1948 14;00 approx Kentucky State police report to Fort Knox military that they have sighted an unusual aircraft or object, flying through the air, circular in appearance approximately 2-300 feet in diameter and moving Westward. Provo Marshall at Fort Knox called Godman Airbase.

13;50 object spotted south of the airfield from the Godman control tower some 35 minutes after the "object" was first reported.

A B29 and an A26 were both on photo missions in the area.

Object seen by the tower controller, lieutenant Cowan and Operations Officer through binoculars. Operations Officer puts in second call to the commanding officer Colonel Hicks. Hicks arrives during the phone call at approximately 14;20.

Approx 14;30 A flight of four F51s arrives over the field.

Hicks orders the F51s to be contacted to ascertain who the leader of the flight was. Captain Mantell
Mantell ordered to change course to 210 degrees and investigate the "unknown object".

Lieutenant Hendricks requests to land and refuel and take on oxygen, permission granted.
Both wingmen refuelled and took off again this time carrying oxygen

14;45 Mantell calls the Tower "I see it, above and ahead of me, I'm still climbing"...

Moments later one of the wingmen calls in.. "What the hell are we looking for?"

Seconds later Mantell.."Mantell to tower, the object is directly ahead of me and above me, now moving at half my speed"
"Mantell to tower it appears to be a metallic object of tremendous size"

The object was also in view of all the tower personnel.

"Mantell to tower, I'm trying to close in for a better look, I'll go to 20,000 feet"

Shortly after Hammond, one of Mantell's wingmen calls Mantell "Level off captain, till I regain visual contact"
Mantell is silent no reply
Moments later Hammond makes another transmission. Mantell seems to have disappeared and climbed beyond his wingman's view
15;25; the remaining wingman breaks off and returns to base

The object visible throughout the chase from the Tower, disappears from view at approximately 15;50. F51s first lost to view object disappears behind a cloud.

At 17;50 they are advised that; Mantell had crashed 5 miles southwest of Franklin Kentucky the crash had occurred at approximately 16;45 Mantell is killed in the crash

Notes; Franklyn is roughly 90 miles from Godman airbase. If Mantell vanished at approximately 15;50 and crashed at 16;45 then he was flying dangerously close to the stalling speed of a P51, (100MPH)? Where as he for that hour, it should have taken his plane no more than 20 minutes to fly from the area of the airbase and Franklin?


Tower controller's statement.. "It looked silver or metallic"
Intelligence officer's statement..."It appeared to be a bright silver object"
Executive Officer's statement..."It was circular in shape"
AACS statement...." A small white object in the sky"
Operation's Officer's statement..."It appeared round and white"
The Commanding Officer's statement..."It could be seen plainly with the naked eye"
Some present had no memory of Mantell informing the tower that he was "Moving in for a better look".

Now go and look at the various websites and books about the incident, either pro or against UFOs, and try to match the real witnesses' accounts to how it has been reported ever since.

edit on 1-4-2020 by FireMoon because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2020 @ 02:02 AM
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a reply to: FireMoon

Good to see you mate and appreciate the post -lost count over the years of how many times
certain people just seem to pop up on these boards using 'emotion inflaming debating tactics' (maybe in an attempt to steer discussion in silly directions) whilst never actually addressing the UFO incident in question.

Maybe they're just dicks but their own personal mantra does seem to be 'deny, ridicule, suppress' (or is that 'distort, dismiss, obfuscate')?

I'd also say that folks would have to be painfully naive not to suspect that paid Cointelpro operatives are actually a thing (and in active, open play on 'conspiracy' forums).



Government plans to monitor and influence internet communications, and covertly infiltrate online communities in order to sow dissension and disseminate false information, have long been the source of speculation.

 Harvard Law Professor Cass Sunstein, a close Obama adviser and the White House’s former head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, wrote a controversial paper in 2008 proposing that the US government employ teams of covert agents and pseudo-”independent” advocates to “cognitively infiltrate” online groups and websites, as well as other activist groups.

Sunstein also proposed sending covert agents into “chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups” which spread what he views as false and damaging “conspiracy theories” about the government.


link



• Also found the playlist in this video quite interesting as one of the points describes associating conspiracy theories (and researchers of them) with communism.. which is exactly what Philip Klass did via CSICOP.






posted on Apr, 2 2020 @ 02:59 AM
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originally posted by: FireMoon

The thing that many miss is that, some of the more serious cases are also the almost laughably strange ones. I've said it before I'll say it again, people who make careers in the military , the secuirty forces and politics are nearly always control freaks and the UFO enigma is like nails down a blackboard to them cos it literally at times, is seemingly winding them up on a level they can only imagine.


A most excellent observation.




originally posted by: FireMoon

The funny thing is, a USAF backed documentary from 1956 was actually disclosure, "Yes they exist, we don't know what they are"




Yes made with full cooperation of the U. S. Government mate and based on the experiences of Al Chop (who had a very interesting list) - he also pops up in the Serling movie 'It Has Begun' which is also relevant as they were filming inside the Pentagon.

Here's Rod describing the object involved in the Coyne case which Klass explained away as 'nothing stranger than a meteor'.





edit on 2-4-2020 by karl 12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2020 @ 03:27 AM
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a reply to: FireMoon

Apologies if I mentioned this comment before in this thread.

Re: the F-51 crash in Kentucky.

One thing I've noted over the years is, through retelling, how many of the details of these incidents are lost.

Donald Keyhoe's books had some very detailed descriptions of incidents like the one in which Captain Mantell died.

Your comments reflect knowledge of those details.

I recall one other thing Keyhoe mentioned that interested me. It was a story much like the events attributed to Roswell ... but it was an obvious fake perpetrated in Colorado ... right around the time the Roswell "UFO crash" is supposed to have happened. I wondered since then if the bit in Colorado didn't plant a seed.

Cheers


edit on 2-4-2020 by F2d5thCavv2 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2020 @ 11:42 AM
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originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2

One thing I've noted over the years is, through retelling, how many of the details of these incidents are lost.

Donald Keyhoe's books had some very detailed descriptions of incidents like the one in which Captain Mantell died.


Bet that's happened in quite a number of UFO cases mate - here are two free relevant E-books in the public domain.





The Flying Saucers Are Real by Major Donald Keyhoe - 1950

This was one of the first books published about the UFO phenomena. We are fortunate that it ended up in the public domain.


Contents




The Mantell Incident: An Anatomy of an Investigation,

The Mantell Incident: An Anatomy of an Investigation, is more than a diary of what happened each day. It includes transcripts of discovered documents and "lost" press releases, as well as actual copies of important documents. The report includes analyses by numerous researchers of specific issues. The Report would not be complete without the analytical expertise of independent researcher, Brad Sparks, who wrote the very detailed analysis based on all the evidence collected.


link



posted on Apr, 4 2020 @ 02:22 PM
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a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

Not Mantell but apparently Philip Klass did make unsubstantiated charges of "drug smuggling" against Australian pilot Frederick Valentich.

Apparently 'Hundreds of sightings of UFOs were reported from Dulong, Frankston and Cape Otway and further along the coast, of which three reports were made up to three hours before Valentich's flight' - 4:53.

Don't know if you've ever seen the vid but thought this commercial pilot also made some interesting comments about lots of other UFO incidents in that area.


See 8:45




posted on Apr, 7 2020 @ 12:09 AM
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a reply to: mirageman

"Ultimately both are now gone. I do wonder if Stan cursed Phil in his final moments."

I bet it was well before his final moments, Phil was such a loser.



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