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China arrests more than 800,000 people for state security reasons.

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posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 09:21 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
So, we should all feel like we live in Oz because of whats happening in China?



I don't understand what you are saying.

-------

Namehere, please read my post carefully (the big one). I feel tired having to respond to the same questions multiple times.




posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Seekerof
The quoted number struck me as odd, and it took me a while to figure out why. Now I remember.

800k people arrested for political reasons in China
800k children go missing each year in the US alone.

So which is the bigger problem? The latter in my opinion, but it's considered business as usual by the UN and the US.

Don't mean to dillute the point of your thread, I just thought the numerical corrolary was worth mentioning.


WrydeOne:
9,000 children go missing in Scotland every year.
77,000+ in the UK go missing every year.
And this list can go on.

Aside from your correlation of the number 800,000, the topic was China and its own system of dealing with its social problems, along with the continued abuses and executions that continue to take place in occupied Tibet.


rapier28:


Also, your Chinese websites only point to criminals being executed.

Really?
Did you translate the page(s)?
They were of Tibetians. Now whether they were criminals or not is a matter of the state and its own determinations of what "criminals" are, eh?




Unless, i'am mistaken greatly, the US also commits capital punishment, correct?

Yep, we publically execute them too, right?
We take them out and and shoot them and bury them in holes in the gorund, also?

Jamuhn


Wait, so is this a diversionary tactic to take focus off the US problems?


To you, Jamuhn, anything brought up that does not revolve around criticism of the US is seen or percieved as "diversionary tactics," correct?




Maybe we, as American citizens, should pay no attention to the problems our country has because others are worse? Sorry, but there is a serious fault of logic here.

And you said you lived where, exactly?



Last time I checked, at least I was capable of denouncing not only the United States' means, but others around the world as well.

Really?
Where then is your condemnation of this?




Honestly, do you think we should not attempt to resolve the US' problems because there are worse de facto governments in the world?

When you use the bathroom to take a #2, does the smell go away right after you flush or continue to linger? Kind of reminds me of the US, among countless other countries, that have problems and are, and have been, trying to rectify them....no matter how hard you try or attempt to 'fix', something else crops up that needs fixing. Nonetheless, we are talking China here, k?

twitchy:


Dude, just a few years ago the US was averaging 760,000 marijuana related arrests a year. That's just for smoking some weed. I fail to see your point other than demonize a culture you probably have a poor understanding of.

Your failing to see the point is not amiss with me, twitchy.

How many of those "760,000 marijuana" violators are executed under or for "state security reasons"? Yeah....I thought so. BTW, weren't you one of those that is hemming and hawing over your rights being taken away, deminishing, disappearing, etc.? Been publically deemed a "state security" risk yet? Seen anyone? And how many of those have been executed?

Justanotherperson:


Kind of a misleading thread title. I was expecting the arrest of 800,000 people and find out that was the total for one year.

You know, for one who claims to be as "business" knowledged as you have asserted, you found the title "misleading" and that the totals were not for one year? Aiiiiiiiight. Question: did you read the article? Please don't say yes, cause then my next question would be: did you just simply and outright miss this mentioned?


More than 800,000 people were arrested last year...




What is the arrest total in the United States and how does it relate to this number?

You, as with others, are again missing the topic: China. These articles are not from US/American sources! They are Asian. I am bringing this to the attention of all of us. Your, and others, attempts to derail this are typical ad hominum rhetoricals/arguments. Get with the program---stay with the topic.



I have lived and worked in both communism and capitalist countries, and as far as I can tell, they are the same.

Been to China? How about "occupied" Tibet?






seekerof

[edit on 11-3-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 10:24 PM
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Seekerof, just a correction, Tibet isn't occupied.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 10:27 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Your failing to see the point is not amiss with me, twitchy.

How many of those "760,000 marijuana" violators are executed under or for "state security reasons"? Yeah....I thought so. BTW, weren't you one of those that is hemming and hawing over your rights being taken away, deminishing, disappearing, etc.? Been publically deemed a "state security" risk yet? Seen anyone? And how many of those have been executed?

Oh my bad, i thought your post said they had been arrested, not executed... there is a big difference.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Really?
Did you translate the page(s)?
They were of Tibetians. Now whether they were criminals or not is a matter of the state and its own determinations of what "criminals" are, eh?



Yes, i did translate the pages, i can read Chinese to a limited extent.

The plaques hanging from they necks says that they committed "intentional murders".

Can you read Chinese? Where does it say that they are Tibetans?



Yep, we publically execute them too, right?
We take them out and and shoot them and bury them in holes in the gorund, also?


Your missing my point.

1) Those executions are disturbing, never claimed otherwise.

2) China is gradually changing firing squads to lethal injection.

3) Death penalty is dealth penalty, by firing squad or lethal injection.

4) China has had death penalty installed for 5000 years, even talking about it as they are now is a big step in itself.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 02:33 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Jamuhn


Wait, so is this a diversionary tactic to take focus off the US problems?


To you, Jamuhn, anything brought up that does not revolve around criticism of the US is seen or percieved as "diversionary tactics," correct?



Hey man, you're the one who brought up the US to compare China to. If you want to leave the United States out of the course of this discussion, you should have never brought them up in the first place. Nice try though.


[edit on 12-3-2005 by Jamuhn]



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 06:03 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof


And lastly, WARNING: Link contains graphic, offensive, and shocking pictures: (and in Chinese)
Set One
Set Two

seekerof


Those people being executed have been sentenced for murder and suchlike... which while I don't condone the use of the death penalty at all... it's hypocritical to accuse when the US is guilty of exactly the same thing





[edit on 12-3-2005 by Lucretius]



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 06:17 AM
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Hmmmm,

China bad, America good. That is what your argument boils down to isnt it? First off, what difference does it make what China is doing. Your actual topic of discussion was that since China is so terrible, Americans should stop whining about loosing their rights cause we are not as bad as CHina...............To that, I say YET. We are not as bad YET.

As long as we sit on our arses and let the government continue on the path it is on, we will be just like China in the next 10 to 15 years. THat is why we are always 'whining' as you put it. Those of us who are speaking out agianst this are doing it because we dont want to see America become like China.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 06:21 AM
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Faced with a truely tragic issue of Chinese tyranny libs can still only revile and "hate-monger" america.

Its' an illness I tell you, liberlisim is an illness based on self-hate and loathing. Guilt for being born or something.........

China is "purging" any possible challenge to its absolute control and power, tyranny of the first order. Stalin and Pol Pot would be proud not to mention Saddam.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 06:29 AM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
Faced with a truely tragic issue of Chinese tyranny libs can still only revile and "hate-monger" america.

Its' an illness I tell you, liberlisim is an illness based on self-hate and loathing. Guilt for being born or something.........

China is "purging" any possible challenge to its absolute control and power, tyranny of the first order. Stalin and Pol Pot would be proud not to mention Saddam.


While you are at it, while not throw Hitler in the mix.


It's amazing to see people so blinded by ignorance that they would make ridiculous comparisons like that.

BSL-4 lab eh. It's nice to know that the World's most dangerous Biotoxins are in your hands, Dr Horacid.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 06:39 AM
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I'll start off with this : I condemn the Chinese government and their actions.

I also condemn the Patriot Act.

Newt Gingrich and many other Republicans don't care for the Patriot Act either. This isn't a partisan issue.

thanks,
drfunk



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
Faced with a truely tragic issue of Chinese tyranny libs can still only revile and "hate-monger" america.

Its' an illness I tell you, liberlisim is an illness based on self-hate and loathing. Guilt for being born or something.........

China is "purging" any possible challenge to its absolute control and power, tyranny of the first order. Stalin and Pol Pot would be proud not to mention Saddam.


Doc, I never said China wasnt guilty of humanitarian creulty. They obviously are. This was not the original subject of the thread however. Seekerof made the statement, and I am paraphrasing it: China has a terrible track record of perversing humanitarian laws and general mistreatment of their citizens. Therfore, we (Americans) who are 'whining' (voicing concerns) about the state of the union should just quit complaining because we dont have it as bad as the Chinese do.

This reason, if any, should be a good enough reason to 'whine' about what our government is doing. We are on the road to be just like china within 2 decades. Do you want to live in a place that is like China? I know I dont, and that is why I speak out every chance I get. This is one reason I am gratefull for this board. It allows me to voice my concerns and opinions about our government and the actions it is partaking in. I cannot sit and watch my America become my China.

Freedom of speach no longer exist in America. What is going to be perversed next?


[edit on 3/12/05 by Kidfinger]



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 07:07 AM
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Originally posted by rapier28
Read my post above.

The women executed is a normal criminal, not a political dissident.

~snip~

[edit on 11-3-2005 by rapier28]


Right you are. My (Chinese) wife confirms that she is indeed a murder. Interestingly, the website that the pictures comes from appears to be a regular newspaper reporting on assorted news. It seems the execution of murderers in China is taken rather matter of factly.


[edit on 12-3-2005 by tjack]



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Nothing from the UN on this.


To busy on the all important issue of human cloning......


Originally posted by SeekerofTibetan monks and Xinjiang Muslims in northwest China who advocate independence are often targeted by Chinese authorities as terrorists, separatists or religious extremists.


This is the part of your post that really struck me......in communist China, a threat to national security can be an advocation for individualism, since that would undermine the state as the answer to everything. I would be interested in a study that elaborates on the personality types prevalent in China......even basic, flawed information like that is telling as it gives a sort of insight to the social trend. Such information would make this topic a bit more complete as the people of china are the recievers of arguably the harshest propaganda........note caption in one of your links....





State-sanctioned public executions. A condemned man is paraded before thousands who turn up to watch as he and a dozen others are executed with a bullet to the head.


That's pretty rough.......many chinese are so dillusioned by the government that they show up in droves to view the execution of a person they do not know. Though I'm not saying the Government lies, the crime of the executed could have been nothing more than a social view/expression that disagreed with the run of the mill......point is, it would appear that many chinese don't argue what they are told........that is a huge red flag to begin with, but in this case, especially disturbing as people's lives are getting rolled and glossed over. How many chinese are aware of the world's opinion of its government and furthermore, how many of them would to dare to expand on that subject in public?


I admittedly haven't given much thought to China and its reality, so this is an interesting look at a different social entity, albeit highly distressing.....



Opposition to China's communist leadership is growing though, as a stark lack of economic opportunities among the country's 800 million rural dwellers becomes increasingly evident, raising fears of social unrest and turmoil.



This is true even if it is made so by the inherent increase in population and the Law of Averages. China government has the looks of a storm a brewin'.


Originally posted by Seekerof
But please, lets continue to focus on how screwed America is and how our freedoms and rights are disappearing, being taken away, etc. or how America has such a dismal Human Rights record, etc., k?!



Thank you, I shall. America is screwed, in my experience. I won't go into a personal boo hoo because I for one do understand the meaning of the word "perspective", however I am not a proponent of the "It could be worse" outlook on life. It pretty much boils down to this.......people are going to take advantage of other people and be taken advantage of. The point of differnce is on how. In America, we have an undereducated majority that is implored on a daily basis by popular culture and media to seek out entertainment and the overindulgence of basic impulses. This allows for a capitalist setting that hawks everything as the next big thing and discourages any actual consideration for what is really going on in any given person's head.....we're too distracted to care.

China may have a blatantly oppresive nature(blatant to outsiders), but that doesn't negate the other problems in the world. Besides, a focus on the social conditions in another continent qualifies as propaganda and is probably designed to instill the "be grateful it ain't you" mentality.......since I have no power over the problems in China, it is relevant for me to focus on America.....You should know that Seeker........


Originally posted by Seekerof
*shakes head*


*sighs*








[edit on 12-3-2005 by MemoryShock]



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
800k children go missing each year in the US alone.



I was shocked by this figure. Could 800,000 children really go missing in the US?
So I checked up on the subject.

What you've got here is a misinterpretation. There are 800,000 reports of missing children in the US per year. The vast majority are from parents whose kids go missing for a couple of hours. There are also runaways and those abducted by family members (normally as a result of a failed marriage).

Non-family abductions are the smallest category of recorded missing children and range from 3200 to 4600. Of these, the State of Washington’s Office of the Attorney General reckons that 100 are murdered. A frightening enough figure to be sure, but hardly the 800,000 that is insinutated in the comparison above.

It's a subject and figure that cannot be compared with political arrests in China. There is absolutely no relevance.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 08:17 PM
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Okay, I never insinuated 800k children were murdered. I said flat out 800k kids go missing each year, and that statistic is accurate, and I stick by it. As I've said before, I brought it up because it was on my mind, and the similarity in the numbers was interesting to me. I'm not trying to divert the thread, but it appears I already have. Seekerof, you can totally delete my replies, former and this one, because it's completely off topic.

Just don't shoot my posts in the head, because that would somehow be crueler than using expensive chemicals to stop their heart at increased cost to the taxpayers, for the benefit of private chemical companies.



posted on Mar, 13 2005 @ 12:03 PM
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Okay so if the sign around the woman's neck says "I am a murderer", then I can sorta understand the execution, but this raises two questions for me:

1: Why does the government need to do it in public? The only logical answer is that they wish to instill fear into those who are watching or who read it in the newspaper. American citizens wouldn't allow this, right?

2: Why do we immediately accept that she really IS a murderer? Let's say she was growing pot instead. Wouldn't they grab one of the "MURDERER" signs and throw that around her neck? Didn't they execute thousands of 'drug-users' in a similar fashion not so long ago (opium wars). And if she was doing something illegal but benign like growing weed, for example, surely the government CAN'T put a sign around her neck that says, "I grew cannabis." because that would give her death some meaning. Right?

In the end, if you want to see China as an emerging nation then there is ample evidence for that analysis, just as there is for the opposite idea that China is a prison-state.

I still fail to see what any of this has to do with the disappearances of individual rights and the current 'Federalization' that's happening in America.



posted on Mar, 13 2005 @ 12:12 PM
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Hmm Chinese police are too busy dealing with real criminals that they aren't out there looking for the 'social dissenters'. They have special divisions of the CIB or whatever they call it to do that.

Some police have been set up to police the internet but they can't really do anything. The only thing that is done is the blocking of sites. I have never had a problem accessing anywhere.

However I was blocked with at Novell Border Security Software that stopped me from accessing other internet networks, but that's cuz I was **legally looking in places I shouldn't.

People will not believe me because they believe propaganda, but I tell you this. America and teh USA are about the same when it comes to cracking down on dissent. Maybe you hear about china more because there are 5 times the peple than america. 1.3 billion to less thatn 3 million. So...

Believe what you want, but I protest in China, I write anything I want on the internet. I teach in public schools where I talk about politics and religion and the western views versus the chinese views.

Believe what you want...All I can say is that I'm not missing out on anything America has to offer and I'm getting a hellovalot more...

Did I mention, authentic Chinese food is delicious!



posted on Mar, 13 2005 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by smallpeeps
1: Why does the government need to do it in public? The only logical answer is that they wish to instill fear into those who are watching or who read it in the newspaper.


That is exactly why it is done......let's review what communism is.....

the definition...

Source Merriam webster
a]theory advocating elimination of private property b]: a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed.


The reason why Communism is so ripe for corruption is because sombody has to decide how society is regulated. Everybody is equal except for those who are generally accepted to not be.

Now, a good way to distract from how blatant inequality is have the focus on the citizens, not the ruling group. In China, for starters, government analysis is discouraged, protests of government are unacceptable and censorship is not only the order, but has been acclimated and is generally agreed with. Mired in this is the admonition of those who pose a 'security threat', public arrests and executions that deter any voidance of the status-quo. A public execution is an event in an of itself. It doesn't involve or even really allow for questions.


Originally posted by smallpeeps
American citizens wouldn't allow this, right?


America doesn't really need to do this. The whole division and subsequent debates regarding the bigt topics, religion, politics, and the entertainment industry is an environment that encourages personal expression. We 'vote' for our leaders and feel that we are accomplishing having an effect on our governments direction, when in fact, imo, we are being pacified......and that is what is happening. Many american citizens have their big screen T.V.'s and new gadgets, etc.; an overall comfortable lifestyle. Those who don't are easily dismissed by the haves for 'not working hard enough' or my favorite, 'keep going, we are all responsible for our own destinies.' On an individual basis, it is difficult to see that our lifestyles are set-up to lead from one situation to another, i.e. school, job/career, marriage, family, death. Any deviation is absolutely the responsibility of our own short comings in failing to understand how the system works, given that a large percentage of our sensory perception is now taken up with advertising campaigns that have been developed and refined for maximum efficiency at grabbing the conscious thoughts of the human mind.


Originally posted by 00PS
Hmm Chinese police are too busy dealing with real criminals that they aren't out there looking for the 'social dissenters'. They have special divisions of the CIB or whatever they call it to do that.


You said it right there, 00PS. They have a whole department set up to look and contain social dissenters?!?!? Poor folks, never even saw it coming......

[edit on 13-3-2005 by MemoryShock]

[edit on 13-3-2005 by MemoryShock]



posted on Mar, 13 2005 @ 07:55 PM
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The whole division and subsequent debates regarding the bigt topics, religion, politics, and the entertainment industry is an environment that encourages personal expression.

Excellent points MS. Funny how in communism, individualism is crushed out of people by displays like this one whereas in America it's sapped out of people via television and entertainment. If you get people to conform, who cares how you do it? As long as they surrender themselves to the system, those at the top are satisfied.



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