Best argument for god? ... From an atheist

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
For every creation there's a creator.

Circular logic based on assumption.

If you would like to argue this isn't a creation I would like you to prove it with demonstrable scientific evidence.

100% false and flipping burden of proof. You don't argue negative claims. You need to prove it IS a creation with demonstrable scientific evidence. LMFAO!!!

originally posted by: HODOSKE
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed ... watch this movie with Ben Stein. Should convince you of a higher intelligence at work

That movie is full of garbage. It's been debunked numerous times. If THAT pile of crap convinces you of a higher intelligence, you already believed in that in the first place.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Gnarley

You may have read it but I doubt that
You if you did read it, you understood nothing

Act clever but havnt a clue, just show your ignorance

I read a lot of it back in catholic school. Definitely not all. It just doesn't make sense why modern humans would follow this book. Or any ancient holy book.

It's midevil rubbish. I figured out in catholic school that you need years of "bible study" to make sense of something nonsensical. To justify the unjustified.

God of the bible is a psychopath. Why worship such a mad god? God of the bible is horrifying. I truely hope he doesn't exist.

Shouldn't we first agree on what a 'god' is because 'creator being outside of spacetime' is a bad definition. What kind of being? How do they create? Where is outside spacetime and how is that possible? If you can't answer these questions in detail then what are you even talking about because all you have provided is some amorphous creature with mysteriously convenient abilities.

a reply to: blueman12

You read a lot of the bible back in catholic school, liar

Catholics don’t read the bible
Ignorance, and you wallow in ignorance, pretending you know something and proving ignorance
Another atheist pretending they have a clue when obviously they don’t

To easy

a reply to: Barcs

Failure to think.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Is God outside of spacetime?
Do atheists believe that is what Christianity/Judaism teaches

Love to hear gnarly or bluemans opinion...they act like they know all

Don’t know TC, who says God is out of spacetime, where do you get that from?
Just asking, not sure myself

kgov.com...

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: HODOSKE
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed ... watch this movie with Ben Stein. Should convince you of a higher intelligence at work

That movie is full of garbage. It's been debunked numerous times. If THAT pile of crap convinces you of a higher intelligence, you already believed in that in the first place.

Who debunked it Barcs, I wouldn’t trust anything you said, you have a God phobia.
A Godophobe in my opinion
A crazy fundamentalist atheist, all sad and bitter

Show the evidence

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
All the circular pointless arguments aren't helping us understand why we exist so let's try a different tactic.

I'm curious to see if us godless heathens could argue for a skydaddy convincingly.

Or to the religious amongst us, I would like to hear your arguments for a pointless godless existence.

Why should a godless existence be pointless? Seems like a presumption

Why would it have any point then?
Just animals, eat breathe and breed
Why presume any value?

a reply to: Raggedyman

Barcs is clearly a troll.

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Well if there is a God and He created everything as claimed, isn’t understanding science understanding God
If God created us for relationship, isn’t understanding Him His greatest desire.
Your argument is ignorant of science and it’s Western foundation

It goes to show you that nobody actually has a relationship with god, because if they did, then they WOULD know him and wouldn't need to answer any mysteries of the universe. If his greatest desire is for people to know him, then he failed miserably because it's all based on blind faith and guessing which religion is correct.

So you are claiming that if you don’t know every detail about someone you don’t know them
You really are all chewed up

Don’t believe it’s ok, no one is forcing you, calm down, you are over reacting barcs, you will blow a valve.
It all makes perfect sense to me, if not you, it’s ok
Science, western science was founded on understanding the creation of God. The bible says “seek God”
The bible says He is hard to understand
The reformation introduced the printing press and education, the fruit of that was science and studying creation, sorry that hurts you

If it’s all miserable and a raffle, poor you, stay uneducated.
Atheism and agnosticism are great, but there is Jesus, I accept and want to follow Jesus
Even as an atheist I would accept Jesus.
Judaism and the Old Testament wouldn’t win me over but Jesus
Love, belonging are things I can trust Jesus on, doing what He asked us to do, loving people, it works

You don’t, all bitter angry and twisted, down on the world and everyone.
You don’t do anything for me, just a sad man trying to get attention, why?

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: Raggedyman

Barcs is clearly a troll.

Barcs has his reasons I am sure, nobody gets that bitter for no reason

a reply to: Raggedyman

Catholics don't read the bible? Oo... you're one of those "my denomination of a particular religion" is the only true path type of person.

You're right though I haven't studied the bible. Just read various parts.

Why study a fantasy book?

originally posted by: Barcs

100% false and flipping burden of proof. You don't argue negative claims. You need to prove it IS a creation with demonstrable scientific evidence. LMFAO!!!

Barcs, you are claiming science, we claim faith, creation is a faith statement
The burden is on you
The burden is on science
That’s basic science, BASIC SCIENCE barcs
Simpleton science
Clearly you don’t understand basic science Barcs
You are on a fools errand

Why can’t you see that, admit that

If science can’t prove it, yours is a faith

It’s childishly simple

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
All the circular pointless arguments aren't helping us understand why we exist so let's try a different tactic.

I'm curious to see if us godless heathens could argue for a skydaddy convincingly.

Or to the religious amongst us, I would like to hear your arguments for a pointless godless existence.

Why should a godless existence be pointless? Seems like a presumption

Why would it have any point then?
Just animals, eat breathe and breed
Why presume any value?

Well if you say it that way then :

What's the point of a Christians life? Eat, sleep, breed, go to heaven. Sounds pointless to me.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

There are many basic constants and numbers that define the physics of the universe. Vary any of these basic constants by even a tiny amount and the universe could not exist in the way it does.

The likelihood of a single of these variables being exactly right is minuscule, however, if you take all the constants underlying physics and consider the tiny mathematical space that is stable but varied, then the probability of a univesrse being so configured is close to zero. The universe is mathematically improbable.

If you consider the 13.4 billion years since the big bang, spread across vast areas of space and potentially matter, even then the universe is still very, very improbable.

To find ourselves in such a universe, and knowing how incredibly rare it must be, and to find remarkable variation, where one might more reasonable expect a singular consistent state for everything, leads one to the conclusion that there must be a significant organizing force, because nothing else fits.

Then we come to question what that organizing force might be and that there appears to be intent. If there is intent, the intent and capability must be of a truly phenomenal scale. God like.

Similarly, the universe evolves and changes through time. It was born in a singularity and if it is truly open, it will expand forever into a state of entropy where no work can reasonably be done. For intelligent life, this would be a hard end.

So, to extend the life of much of the universe, it may be possible to diferentially collapse parts of space-time and therefore provide the energy difference required. This would consume some of the expanding universe to fuel hundreds of billions of extra years of existence.

At the point of being able to collapse space-time in such a matter, control over time itself is most likely to be trivial. So it makes sense that the accumulated intelligence's of billions of years of universal development would have the capability to pre-figure the basic physics, and ongoing development of the universe in such a way as to allow for their own existence.

This amassed intelligence is not likely to be like us. It will communicate and co-think fully. It will not experience death. It will not experience our limitations. It will be super intelligent. It will be all powerful over the physical universe. It will be of such a state that we could not distinguish it from God.

This closes the loop on the universe, making it self-sustaining - from the beginning.

Incredulity is not an argument for god anymore than ego is an argument for authority. We should expect more substance when we are weighing the data in these matters, physical properties to examine and explain in biological/cosmological terms. Or lack thereof.

The data does not argue for an accidental universe.

This universe has intelligence, out of all the possible dead universes, we have the capability to build a home.

But only if you take the long view. If you only consider the state of intelligence before it has really asserted its predominance, then of course you could not see the overall evolution of the universe beyond the progress of this type of life.

When we evolved our intellectual powers, it changed the game. Natural evolutionary development is now usurped.

No incredulity required.

originally posted by: blueman12

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
All the circular pointless arguments aren't helping us understand why we exist so let's try a different tactic.

I'm curious to see if us godless heathens could argue for a skydaddy convincingly.

Or to the religious amongst us, I would like to hear your arguments for a pointless godless existence.

Why should a godless existence be pointless? Seems like a presumption

Why would it have any point then?
Just animals, eat breathe and breed
Why presume any value?

Well if you say it that way then :

What's the point of a Christians life? Eat, sleep, breed, go to heaven. Sounds pointless to me.

You just told me you read the bible and understood the bible and you were a good catholic and reply with Christianity is eat sleep and breed, really

You are going backwards buddy, looking extremely foolish, a liar and proving your ignorance and lies
Christians have a purpose, it’s pretty clearly written, it’s not eating, breeding and sleeping.
Do you think before writing

The best argument for the existence of an omniscient transtemporal supernatural superentity capable of creating reality and controlling everything in it is that if there actually are multiple universes, and an infinite number of those universes, then there has to be at least one where such a being exists. And if it exists in one universe, then it exists in all of them.

The problem, of course, will always be in defining "God." I have yet to see a definition for god that doesn't have an inherent paradox built into it, making it useless. The primary fault will always be defining a god that is ACTIVE. After all, if you define a being that is essentially everything everywhere and always, then what kind of deficiency would it have that would stimulate it to create a universe? It's already all-encompassing. What could it possibly need such that it would say to itself, "I think I need to create reality. Let's start with light, so we can see what we're doing." So which is it? Is this being everything, or is it missing something? Can't have both. In fact, even referring to it as a separate thing / entity / consciousness is limiting it by separating it from the rest of everything.

If you're going to believe is such a being, I think the Gnostic Christians had a fairly decent response. They said that since the creator entity is essentially unfathomable and completely beyond understanding by our weak human minds, it kind of becomes a non-issue. You can't deal with it, and worshiping it is just foolish. It has humanity trapped in a horrible existence and there's nothing that can be done about it -- except -- we still feel pain and pleasure no matter what, so why don't we just maybe treat each other better to make the best of a really bad situation? Rather than just fighting all the time, let's cooperate and help each other make this existence slightly more tolerable while we're in it. I could get behind that.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
Shouldn't we first agree on what a 'god' is because 'creator being outside of spacetime' is a bad definition. What kind of being? How do they create? Where is outside spacetime and how is that possible? If you can't answer these questions in detail then what are you even talking about because all you have provided is some amorphous creature with mysteriously convenient abilities.

You assume that we have the capability of a complete definition or that a complete definition is necessary for us to know that something must exist.

When we use words like infinite, all powerful, timeless and so forth, those words do have meaning, despite them all being beyond our direct experience. They describe concepts that most people really have no difficulty with.

There are many things beyond our capability to fully describe, but that doesn't mean that we doubt that a gravitational singularity could exist, or that the universe could be open and expand forever. We can conceive of these things and even explain how such concepts come about.

a reply to: blueman12

I was a catholic blueman, you trying to start a fight?
You just can’t find your feet, you havnt got any idea and act like you are a theologian with criticism of something you are ignorant of

I know, I was a catholic, 4 years in primary school, great education, great teachers, poor theology, no bible reading at all.
I did it

I can say, will happily say
And I believe many Catholics are Christian, probably more so than some evangelicals
You are trying to win a fight and I am letting you hit yourself, it’s just dumb

you said
“Why study a fantasy book”
My question
Why comment on the book when you havnt a clue what it’s about
Chasing the stars, trying to win friends, social influencer, begging for friends, buying likes.
Just looking like a fool