The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Wow, go away for two days and look at what happens!

ShawnyBaby, one of the neat things about Christianity, like life, is that you're always learning more, and coming to a greater understanding. I can't speak for everyone here, but I know that for me, this truth of persecution is becoming clearer to me. Hence the reason it took me 90+ pages before responding in such a way. Intellectually I knew this is what the Bible said was to take place, but I didn't really understand it.

Christians being persecuted for Christ is not proof of Christianity. Many groups have been persecuted here in this very country, and on a far greater scale. The proof of Christianity doesn't lie in persecution; it lies elsewhere. Persecution is a consequence of faith in Christ. The more vocal and vehement Christians become in professing their faith and in trying to bring our country (yes, it's ours, too) in line with what a successful country must be, the more the persecution will come.

It is not persecution that causes Christians to believe, it is the Truth that is Christ that causes Christians to believe.

i feel i'm a good person, i'm not entirely sure if i'm sinning or if i sinned yesterday, or how many sins i've done. but i don't regret any of them, and i've not felt the need to go an confess them. that's what i think is so great about being a PERSON.

I understand this mentality more than you may realize, as I subscribed to it for many years. I had convinced myself that I didn't regret any action I took, that I was consistent, and that I was a good person. Looking back, though, there were things I did that I apologized for: a sign of regret. I also had done things that, looking back, I would have handled them differently. Though often too proud to go back and apologize for those actions (especially if they resulted in a broken relationship), I did learn from them.

You claim fear is behind confessing and apologizing for poor actions. I would contend it is love, not fear, that leads us to do these things. If you get into a fight with your wife/girlfriend, and you were clearly in the wrong, do you apologize and confess to her out of fear, or because you love her? If you and your best friend get into a fight where you're in the wrong, is it love or fear that urges you to reconcile that relationship, often through an apology? The same goes if you've ever mentored under someone you greatly respect.

It isn't fear that drives us to reconcile, it is love and respect.

another self proclaimed goody goody christian, who feels he can judge others who don't believe, because he's better than us. why are you trying to force your beliefs on atheists, why not muslims, buddists, jews, islamics etc. because they'd think you're full of BS, that's why.

Oh, that I wish that were true. I make no claims of goodness because I am not good. I don't believe I am better than you in any way. God is not a respecter of humans. Would you think of yourself as greater than someone else because you know what 2 + 2 is, and they don't? Would you be judging them if you explained to them, taught them what 2 + 2 is?

Why am I trying to "force" my beliefs on atheists (and by force, I don't mean, as you seem to have interpreted, gun point ministry, believe or die, but rather force by presenting the Truth. 2 + 2 is 4, and there is no other answer.)

I used to be an evangelical atheist just as you are, and as such can identify with where you're at. Also, the large majority of people who feel they have to vindicate their beliefs by attacking Christianity are atheists. Here on Above Top Secret, the majority of members who do this are atheists. That doesn't mean my ministry is limited to this group of believing non-believers alone. You know me on ATS, and on ATS alone.

Finally, on your point of how I'm going to interpret you as being another angry atheist, I can't say that. Your mentality as you wrote that is between you and God, and only God and yourself know your true mental reaction. As for accepting ignorance, that is between you and God as well. I can't force you to seek truth just as you can't force me to deny it. Flee from the Bible if you must, but know that that is the most important decision of your entire life.

2 Timothy 3:1-5

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

[edit on 2/28/06/28 by junglejake]

Originally posted by junglejake
Wow, go away for two days and look at what happens!

Yeah, no more 'Mr.Nice' guy.

I understand this mentality more than you may realize, as I subscribed to it for many years. I had convinced myself that I didn't regret any action I took, that I was consistent, and that I was a good person. Looking back, though, there were things I did that I apologized for: a sign of regret. I also had done things that, looking back, I would have handled them differently. Though often too proud to go back and apologize for those actions (especially if they resulted in a broken relationship), I did learn from them.

Even if you make a mistake or hurt someone, there's no point pondering about it and regretting it. There's not enough time in the world to be regretting your actions. What you have to do, rather than regret, is to learn from those mistakes you made. Those mistakes at the end of the day are what make up part of you today...so why regret them.

You claim fear is behind confessing and apologizing for poor actions. I would contend it is love, not fear, that leads us to do these things. If you get into a fight with your wife/girlfriend, and you were clearly in the wrong, do you apologize and confess to her out of fear, or because you love her? If you and your best friend get into a fight where you're in the wrong, is it love or fear that urges you to reconcile that relationship, often through an apology?

The difference here is that your girlfriend or friend are not offering you eternal salvation. Therefore, if you make it up to your friend or girlfriend, by saying you were wrong, then you're not doing it for any obvious gain, other than their forgiveness and love in return. Sure you may believe you get forgiveness and love from God or Jesus, yet at the same time, you're also getting your eternal salvation back by confessing. The fear is that if you don't confess, then you will not be saved. You may also be fearful to the fact that if you don't make up with your friend or girlfriend...you may lose them forever.

Why am I trying to "force" my beliefs on atheists (and by force, I don't mean, as you seem to have interpreted, gun point ministry, believe or die, but rather force by presenting the Truth. 2 + 2 is 4, and there is no other answer.)

You're not presenting 'truth'. You're presenting some ancient scripture that is not fact. Therefore, you're willfully spreading misconceptions of life.

If there were a God, then he would have found me, and vice versa, or at the least given me a sign. I'm aware that you'll use the excuse 'your hearts not open to him, your mind and so on'. However, I never used to be this anti-christian. I've said many times that my primary school and middle school, so up until I was 12, we sung hyms, said prays etc. Also went to a youth group at church. Never not in any of those 12 years did anything strike me as though there was something more there.

Maybe again it's my fault, although I fail to see that as my mind was more open back then. Any 12 year old is pretty suggestable to religion. Hell, you can get kids to believe in a tooth fairy and santa claus...the bible to those, does not seem to far fetched.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Even if you make a mistake or hurt someone, there's no point pondering about it and regretting it. There's not enough time in the world to be regretting your actions. What you have to do, rather than regret, is to learn from those mistakes you made. Those mistakes at the end of the day are what make up part of you today...so why regret them.

In this we are in agreement. To quote Matthew West, a Christian singer/song writer, from his song History:

Yesterday is history, and history is miles away. So, leave it all behind you, but let it always remind you of the day...The day that love made history.

However, I never used to be this anti-christian.

Do you think your current prejudice aids you in understanding the unknown, in denying ignorance? Do you think coming into a conversation already knowing all the answers allows much room for learning?

Originally posted by junglejake
Do you think your current prejudice aids you in understanding the unknown, in denying ignorance? Do you think coming into a conversation already knowing all the answers allows much room for learning?

I never said I had all the answers. It's only a prejudice on God's behalf. If he had shown a sign...I would not be this way. Even now if I were anti-christian...do you not think it would be wise for God to show me the right direction? He would willfully let me make the wrong choice over and over... I prefer to believe that's not the case. As if there is a God, he doesn't care about me, hence I will return the favour quite happily. I don't think my life would be any better with God. I don't have God right now, and I'm sitting sweet.

One of my friends who counts himself 'Christian', even though he rarely goes to church...he just believes something is up there. His answer to why is 'I grew up with it, it's the life I know and it's all I've ever known'. I think the same rings true for many Christians. The fact that he grew up with it, and many other christians did too, does not mean in any way shape or form that the bible is true. The same can be said for all religion, as Muslims, Hindus, Jews etc, all 'grow up' with it. The same way a child might grow up with Santa. There's nothing true at all about Santa, so why should religion be thought of as different.

Shaun,
There are those who have so little regard for the beauty and wonder in the universe that if they can't find a way to believe they're going to live forever, they'll just roll up in a ball out of fear. Believing that there's some all-powerful guy who lives in the sky is a way to create meaning when you're life is otherwise meaningless. For some, the beauty and love in the universe is enough. For others, it's not and they've got to fool themselves into believing they're going to live forever.

Men have spent eons developing intricate myths to make them less afraid of the unknown. For a very few, it's not enough for them to believe the myth, they have to make others believe it to prop up their own self-delusion.

There are Christians, people of faith, who have come to it out of a love of life, rather than a fear of death. These people don't have to push their beliefs on others, don't have to put fish decals on the back of their car or bible verses in their sig lines. You'll know these people because they'll live lives of significance rather than hootin' and hollerin' about abortion, homosexuals and Howard Stern. These are people to get to know because they are the true Christians.

The ones who fear death and have to cling to ridiculous creation myths, cosmologies based upon their god being bigger than your god, and an absolutist view of the universe based upon them having the answer and others having "false gods" are easy to spot. Bad dental hygeine is one sure giveaway. Another is voting Republican. It's not worth arguing with them because they're not really able to follow basic reason.

The trick is to listen to what angels say whenever they show up in the bible: "Be not afraid" Oh, and follow the one commandment that Christ taught: "Love one another". Everything else is bull#.

Mmmmmn. I do not fear death. I *BELIEVE* in an afterlife, a spiritual existence, the existence of the soul... but so what?

If I am wrong, and my soul just evaporates after death, well.. then so what? That doesn't scare me. I've said it before and I'll say it again, atheism *IS* a liberating sensation... to know that this time that you have is all you get, and that in the end, you rest... eternally. That you just wink out like a lightbulb...

It is very calming, very peaceful, very easing.

Still though, I believe. I don't believe because I fear death, that's silly, either way you slice it with or without an afterlife Death is entirely a meaningless act... it is just the end of something, not something tobe feared.

All I can say for Shauny, and for other non-believers is... well, if a creator being is true, maybe you'll get your sign. Just because it hasn't happened yet is no reason for it not to happen.

As a christian all my duty is is to try and spread love and undermine hate. It is my duty to try and lead people to a spiritual path to enlightenment. Hey, maybe some people need the path of Atheism for their soul to grow. Am I the person who is to determine whether a person believes or not?

I argue quite a bit with either side of the fence, Christians and Atheists alike... and I do that because in 99.9% of the cases, they support their views based off ignorance... and that is unacceptable to me. As completely seperate from my views, I am still human, it bothers me when people form ignorant views and then seek to pick fights with people who are fine with themselves and what they believe...

Because it *IS* an attack on those people. And the people doing the attacking are, more often than not, doing it because somehow the beliefs of the other person angers them.... or they are angry about some other thing on a deep, personal level which many of them are unwilling to accept.

In a lot of cases of Atheism, people are angry at God for having forsaken them somehow... and thus assume that God doesn't exist. This includes seeing people suffer horrible traumas of life, the same conclusion arises.

I am an enemy of both Christians and Atheists... as I should be an enemy of all mankind. Rebuke me, as others will. For though others see me as an enemy, I act only out of love for all mankind from the meager to the mighty.

Atheists, make peace with the fact that in your minds many people believe in something without evidence... you yourself do.

Christians, make peace with the idea that some people prefer dust over salvation... for though you may feel sorrow for them, it was always their choice to make. We as Christians need not force ourselves upon them, only be who we are today and ever after... our love is not to convert, it should be freely given even if it is rejected or rebuked... and we need both learn to keep loving in the face of hatred as well as to learn thatour love will always be tested by others.

... to know that this time that you have is all you get, and that in the end, you rest... eternally. That you just wink out like a lightbulb...

Actually one becomes part of the "lightbulb" that never turns off. Rest there will not be. Peace there will be.

Shaunybaby, I'm happy to read that you've had a foundation growing up in Christianity. It's more than I had.

If a sign is what you seek to let you know God is real, that He's out there and that He cares, you have to open your eyes to the possibility. It may not be so obvious as Jesus coming to you in the desert, blinding you and sending you into a city to meet with a Christian who will heal you (Paul's conversion), but when you seek, there will be signs. Christ tells us that he stands at the door and knocks, and He will come in if we but open the door to our hearts.

If you open your heart and ask, honestly, aloud, for God to reveal Himself to you, and then be open to that revelation, it will be there. Christ said seek and you shall find me. Seek.

to know that this time that you have is all you get, and that in the end, you rest... eternally.

More like .. you cease to exist... permenatly. You don't 'experience' an eternal rest. You just ... *poof* It's niether peaceful, calming nor easing. It's devoid of any sensation as there is none to sense after you cease to exist.

Still though, I believe. I don't believe because I fear death, that's silly, either way you slice it with or without an afterlife Death is entirely a meaningless act... it is just the end of something, not something tobe feared.

Not true. Death with an afterlife isn't an end to life. The whole concept of an afterlife is to ease the worry of death. To give hope to those who do fear death or don't like the concept of what death really is. An afterlife death has a lot of meaning behind it.

All I can say for Shauny, and for other non-believers is... well, if a creator being is true, maybe you'll get your sign. Just because it hasn't happened yet is no reason for it not to happen.

What constitutes a sign? What should be considered a miracle? How would one know they were given a sign? If openly looking and asking for a sign, and you don't recieve one, then what are you to believe? How can an all powerfull god not be able to give a sign right upon openly asking for it? How can an all knowing god give a sign that he know's you wouldn't accept as a sign? From everything I've seen so far, a sign from god is based upon the preassumption that god exist's.

As a christian all my duty is is to try and spread love and undermine hate. It is my duty to try and lead people to a spiritual path to enlightenment. Hey, maybe some people need the path of Atheism for their soul to grow. Am I the person who is to determine whether a person believes or not?

Why do you think it's your duty to do this? I know god's first commandment teach's intollerance, but intollerance to other's belief's break's a few other thing's god also talk's about imo.

I argue quite a bit with either side of the fence, Christians and Atheists alike... and I do that because in 99.9% of the cases, they support their views based off ignorance... and that is unacceptable to me. As completely seperate from my views, I am still human, it bothers me when people form ignorant views and then seek to pick fights with people who are fine with themselves and what they believe...

In a way ... Your no different.

Because it *IS* an attack on those people. And the people doing the attacking are, more often than not, doing it because somehow the beliefs of the other person angers them.... or they are angry about some other thing on a deep, personal level which many of them are unwilling to accept.

I don't get angry at what a person believe's. I get angry when those people feel they have a spiritual duty to push those belief's upon me. No one is forcing anyone to become athiest's or consider evolution over creationism. But, with those of faith you can see one good example of pushing faith into our school's through the disguise of IDT. A so called theory which was admittingly not even considered a science by it's very founder. So why push it into our schools? Teach it in your own private schools, sunday schools, durring mass or whatever other observance's you guy's hold. We don't try and shove evolution down the church's throat's hoping they'll see it our way. It's just ... inconsiderate.

In a lot of cases of Atheism, people are angry at God for having forsaken them somehow... and thus assume that God doesn't exist. This includes seeing people suffer horrible traumas of life, the same conclusion arises.

If you lost a tooth tonight and put it under your pillow ... would you be angry at the tooth fairy for not giving you money in exchange for that tooth? No, obviously not. We don't assume god doesn't exist based upon an anger towards god. We know god doesn't exist for the very same reason we know the tooth fairy doesn't exist. When we talk of the act's god commit's in the bible, we're doing nothing more then 1) pointing out his imperfections, thus contradicting the concept of a perfect god. 2) pointing out the many contradictive and differring belief's in a supposed one god. 3) Pointing out that not all can be the right one, as you can't have more then one monotheistic god. 4) Try and understand what make's you guy's tick. Why do they believe in this god who created man in ignorance and punished man for learning.

I am an enemy of both Christians and Atheists... as I should be an enemy of all mankind. Rebuke me, as others will. For though others see me as an enemy, I act only out of love for all mankind from the meager to the mighty.

You say you act out of love, and yet some of what you post is out of hate and anger. Your not fully acting out of love when you call people like me idiot's or ignorant for not holding the same belief's as you. Nor are you acting out of love when you state to be an enemy of your own christian's and atheist's alike. If that's your concept of acting out of love, I feel sorry for you. You then have no idea what love is.

Atheists, make peace with the fact that in your minds many people believe in something without evidence... you yourself do.

We don't believe in anything unless there IS evidence. Science is not a faith. Science does not claim an absolute truth nor can you hold faith in something that is in a constant state of flux. We're not a religion.

Christians, make peace with the idea that some people prefer dust over salvation... for though you may feel sorrow for them, it was always their choice to make. We as Christians need not force ourselves upon them, only be who we are today and ever after... our love is not to convert, it should be freely given even if it is rejected or rebuked... and we need both learn to keep loving in the face of hatred as well as to learn thatour love will always be tested by others.

Why would you contradict yourself there? Earlier you stated it was your DUTY to try and lead us down the right path... and now here your saying to your fellow christian's that you shouldn't be forcing yourselve's upon us. Yet that's exactly what your doing by trying to enlighten us and make us see it your way. Your going to confuse those of faith and without here by being so contradictive.

Originally posted by Produkt
More like .. you cease to exist... permenatly. You don't 'experience' an eternal rest. You just ... *poof* It's niether peaceful, calming nor easing. It's devoid of any sensation as there is none to sense after you cease to exist.

Purposely took my words to mean what you think. It is restful viewed from the living standpoint... calming that in the end there is nothing. That was my point.

Not true. Death with an afterlife isn't an end to life. The whole concept of an afterlife is to ease the worry of death. To give hope to those who do fear death or don't like the concept of what death really is. An afterlife death has a lot of meaning behind it.

DEATH is meaningless either way. If one believe in the spiritual, death isn't an end, it is an event of transition. if you don't believe in the spiritual, then Death is an end... and either way, whether it is a transition or ending existence for a consciousness, it is meaningless... thusly I do not fear it.

What constitutes a sign? What should be considered a miracle? How would one know they were given a sign? If openly looking and asking for a sign, and you don't recieve one, then what are you to believe? How can an all powerfull god not be able to give a sign right upon openly asking for it? How can an all knowing god give a sign that he know's you wouldn't accept as a sign? From everything I've seen so far, a sign from god is based upon the preassumption that god exist's.

Don't ask me questions I can't answer. Every question in this paragraph are only questions YOU can answer to your own satisfaction and we already know you don't ask those questions seeking a sincere answer, you only ask to be contentious and argumentative.

Why do you think it's your duty to do this? I know god's first commandment teach's intollerance, but intollerance to other's belief's break's a few other thing's god also talk's about imo.

I think it is my job because I am telling you it *IS* my job, and that it is what I CHOSE to do. Whether you think I have a right to do that or not is bollocks to me, I don't give a damn.

In a way ... Your no different.

I am different in that I know my ignorance, and why I act the way I do. I am familiar with both positions and have my own beliefs, that is true, but I am not so hung up on my beliefs that I can't see either side of any given subject. And I do NOT ascribe to zealotry, even concerning my own beliefs. I'm just an idiot on a ship of fools.... what seperates me is my awareness of my idiocy.

I don't get angry at what a person believe's. I get angry when those people feel they have a spiritual duty to push those belief's upon me.

Fine, then explain why you even participate in conversations on message boards which concern topics you find offensive. You have a reason or you wouldn't do it, whether you're aware of them or not.

No one is forcing anyone to become athiest's or consider evolution over creationism.

You lie. You would not participate in trying to prove christians wrong if you didn't want to convert them, to "SHOW THEM THE LIGHT". It would be a monumental waste of time for you if you didn't have this agenda.

But, with those of faith you can see one good example of pushing faith into our school's through the disguise of IDT.

So you do have something against religion... you don't want it taught in your schools.

I don't particularly think ID should be in schools, care to explain why it is a bad thing to include religion in schools? I'm not asking about favoritism. I'm asking ethically. I expect you'll give the recycled answer.

A so called theory which was admittingly not even considered a science by it's very founder. So why push it into our schools? Teach it in your own private schools, sunday schools, durring mass or whatever other observance's you guy's hold. We don't try and shove evolution down the church's throat's hoping they'll see it our way. It's just ... inconsiderate.

Oh Bollocks, you SO do try and jam it down people's throats. You ridicule theists in most every post you make.

We know god doesn't exist for the very same reason we know the tooth fairy doesn't exist. When we talk of the act's god commit's in the bible, we're doing nothing more then 1) pointing out his imperfections, thus contradicting the concept of a perfect god. 2) pointing out the many contradictive and differring belief's in a supposed one god. 3) Pointing out that not all can be the right one, as you can't have more then one monotheistic god. 4) Try and understand what make's you guy's tick. Why do they believe in this god who created man in ignorance and punished man for learning.

And you need to do this about a "Fictitious" entity why...? Where does the desire to disprove god come from, if you do not have anything AGAINST the concept?

You say you act out of love, and yet some of what you post is out of hate and anger. Your not fully acting out of love when you call people like me idiot's or ignorant for not holding the same belief's as you. Nor are you acting out of love when you state to be an enemy of your own christian's and atheist's alike. If that's your concept of acting out of love, I feel sorry for you. You then have no idea what love is.

I never called you an idiot, I said you were being an idiot. One is permanent, the other is transitory... and you were being an idiot. To me, Love is wrapped up in truth, and I'm not going to be kind to you because I love you. I will do what I feel is necessary both to you and for you to better you. You don't have to feel love to be loved.

We don't believe in anything unless there IS evidence. Science is not a faith. Science does not claim an absolute truth nor can you hold faith in something that is in a constant state of flux. We're not a religion.

As a scientist, do you trust what you observe with your senses? Because SENSES LIE. Science is religion, it is just better at it than Churches.

Christians, make peace with the idea that some people prefer dust over salvation... for though you may feel sorrow for them, it was always their choice to make. We as Christians need not force ourselves upon them, only be who we are today and ever after... our love is not to convert, it should be freely given even if it is rejected or rebuked... and we need both learn to keep loving in the face of hatred as well as to learn thatour love will always be tested by others.

Why would you contradict yourself there? Earlier you stated it was your DUTY to try and lead us down the right path... and now here your saying to your fellow christian's that you shouldn't be forcing yourselve's upon us. Yet that's exactly what your doing by trying to enlighten us and make us see it your way. Your going to confuse those of faith and without here by being so contradictive.

How, exactly, does the duty of showing the correct path conflict with NOT being forceful about it? When a man comes into the mountains seeking wisdom, and there he finds an old Yogi who imparts upon him the mortal wisdom he had acquired, was it not the purpose of the journey? Should the Yogi have not imparted the wisdom, for that is what he is there for? Or perhaps it was forceful to tell the man this information which might help him reach enlightenment?

Forcing your belief is different from being obligated to reveal the truth to others.

Let me make this simple on you.... It is my duty to promote love and undermine hatred. It is my duty to be honest, straightforward, and just in my dealings. It is my duty to share what wisdom I may have with those seeking enlightenment.

You have no obligation to read my words... you have no obligation to respond or even be aware of my presence. We are on the internet, friend... and I am but a mouse-click away from being removed from your sight. As such, YOU actively engage me. You CHOOSE to be offended, you CHOOSE to read my words, you CHOOSE to be contentious with what I offer you as wisdom. I am not forcing you to believe in anything, and you are not obligated to humor me in the least.

[edit on 3/1/2006 by TheCrystalSword]

Purposely took my words to mean what you think. It is restful viewed from the living standpoint... calming that in the end there is nothing. That was my point.

I guess everyone is entitled to view death in their own special way...

DEATH is meaningless either way. If one believe in the spiritual, death isn't an end, it is an event of transition. if you don't believe in the spiritual, then Death is an end... and either way, whether it is a transition or ending existence for a consciousness, it is meaningless... thusly I do not fear it.

I guess the ancient egyptians and other culture's who placed great emphasis on death thought the wrong way. Heck, even some culture's today.

Don't ask me questions I can't answer. Every question in this paragraph are only questions YOU can answer to your own satisfaction and we already know you don't ask those questions seeking a sincere answer, you only ask to be contentious and argumentative.

There was a time (believe it or not) that I have asked those question's in the most sincerest way. Guess what the answer was... I'm still waiting. From my point of view, all powerfull and all knowing mean's all powerfull and all knowing. If that far back then, an all powerfull and all knowing being couldn't give me a sign despite a sincere request, then he fail's to have those qualities. This was before I started to really get into science and the advancements it produces in both technology and knowledge. Heck, even still I test it, asking in a sincere manner for some sign. Yet no matter how many time's I ask, I never experience anything I can't explaine nor know the cause too.

I think it is my job because I am telling you it *IS* my job, and that it is what I CHOSE to do. Whether you think I have a right to do that or not is bollocks to me, I don't give a damn.

I hope you don't treat all your student's this way.

I am different in that I know my ignorance, and why I act the way I do. I am familiar with both positions and have my own beliefs, that is true, but I am not so hung up on my beliefs that I can't see either side of any given subject. And I do NOT ascribe to zealotry, even concerning my own beliefs. I'm just an idiot on a ship of fools.... what seperates me is my awareness of my idiocy.

Zealotry denotes zeal in excess, referring to cases where activism and ambition in relation to an ideology have become excessive to the point of being harmful to others, oneself, and one's own cause. Particular aspects can focus on religion, politics, but can also apply to any other area where partisanship and its related dogma are fostered and encouraged. A zealous person is called a zealot.

Nah... your not a zealot.

Fine, then explain why you even participate in conversations on message boards which concern topics you find offensive. You have a reason or you wouldn't do it, whether you're aware of them or not.

The topic itself doesn't offend me. The people trying to proclaim it as truth without any evidence and pushing it as truth doesn't even offend me. Those who feel it's their duty to push their belief's on me is what I find offensive. So I guess ... I find your belief that it's your duty to do so as offensive. Would you like it if say ... another culture felt it was their duty to push their beliefs of human sacrifice to appease the god's upon you?

You lie. You would not participate in trying to prove christians wrong if you didn't want to convert them, to "SHOW THEM THE LIGHT". It would be a monumental waste of time for you if you didn't have this agenda.

I'm not trying to convert anyone. It's not my duty. I don't have an agenda of any sort's. I just try to correct that which is wrong. When a person of faith say's there's no evidence for evolution, I correct them. When a person of faith say's evolution has never been observed, I correct them. I don't force them to believe it though.

So you do have something against religion... you don't want it taught in your schools.

I don't particularly think ID should be in schools, care to explain why it is a bad thing to include religion in schools? I'm not asking about favoritism. I'm asking ethically. I expect you'll give the recycled answer.

Not the religion itself, just the 'duty' to push it upon other's. Personally, I don't think IDT should be taught in school's as it implies a creator (god). If we're going to teach IDT/creationism, then we need to be teaching our young children about ALL the creation myth's, not just the one creator myth. If it were propsed that way, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Oh Bollocks, you SO do try and jam it down people's throats. You ridicule theists in most every post you make.

If correction or showing where certain belief's came from or asking question's they can't answer is considered ridicule ... well I guess I do. But jamming it down their throat's ... I think not.

And you need to do this about a "Fictitious" entity why...? Where does the desire to disprove god come from, if you do not have anything AGAINST the concept?

It's part of learning. You consider th tooth fairy as fictitious. You've never seen it, never heard it... but when you were young (if your parents were like mine) the tooth fairy gave you money in exchange for your tooth. As a young child, through what you were told and what you experienced, the tooth fairy seemed very real. That is... untill you accepted the reality that the tooth fairy wasn't real at all. I'm just trying to understand why some people believe in this other 'tooth fairy'. People seem to feel the need to believe in thing's they've never seen nor heard. Just think they've experienced.

I never called you an idiot, I said you were being an idiot. One is permanent, the other is transitory... and you were being an idiot. To me, Love is wrapped up in truth, and I'm not going to be kind to you because I love you. I will do what I feel is necessary both to you and for you to better you. You don't have to feel love to be loved.

So, if I love someone, it's perfectly ok to insult them only if they deserve it? You really do have a sad view of what love is. I feel sorry for your future wife.

As a scientist, do you trust what you observe with your senses? Because SENSES LIE. Science is religion, it is just better at it than Churches.

Senses lie so much, that we can apply what we learn to everyday practice. Computer's shouldn't exist because our senses lie. And I can not stress this enough, science is not a religion. It doesn't claim an absolute truth nor can one have faith in something that is in a constant state of flux.

Let me make this simple on you.... It is my duty to promote love and undermine hatred. It is my duty to be honest, straightforward, and just in my dealings. It is my duty to share what wisdom I may have with those seeking enlightenment.

Undermine hatred, yet post so hatefully. To be honest, yet lie about what wisdom you think you have. Do you really think you have wisdom? Do you really think that anything you say is absolute and need's to be taught? Your wisdom isn't wisdom, it's opinionated. In YOUR opinion you BELIEVE and have FAITH that thing's are the way they are. You don't have evidence and proof. You just have an opinion. Opinion's are not wisdom my friend.

Okay, as per your definition, I am not a zealot... as I don't entirely believe my own beliefs. I think they are just as likely to be a bunch of crap as they are to be true.

And I don't like partisanship, I find it assanine and pedantic. It is extremism in all forms I rail against.

As for the rest of your post, I can tell by now it is utterly useless to make any reasonable argument with you. You don't recognize anything I say as reasonable, that's fine... just means you're a waste of my time.

Not to mention you seem to be gunning for me, replying with animosity to posts that were not DIRECTED at you and did not contain any inflammatory language.

It is not so bad to not be a Christian once you look at the esteemed company you have. Mohandas Gandhi, Buddha, the Dalai Lama, Chief Seattle, Isaac Asimov, Lao Tzu, Confucius, etc. It is the price of predominance that any group will inevitably face groups set on undermining that predominance. Nothing personal. I wonder, though, if agnosticism was predominant, would it attract such vehemence? I doubt it, since it does not profess to 'know', which is the contentious point when one does not agree that the person claiming he actually does 'know' what is best for others. I don't claim to know what is best for anyone, it is a task to try to do so for myself, I have no time to bother others even if I did claim I 'knew' what was best for them.
Could God really have a 'favourite' faith? Are the one billion plus Muslims all just wrong? And would God punish one for being an atheist, if God did exist? Could Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus, Animists, Wiccans, Shinto, Ba'hai, etc. all be just wrong? What if one of them was God's pet faith? Why is that not an option to those who feel that their particular faith is?

[edit on 03 22 2005 by BlackGuardXIII]

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Nothing personal. I wonder, though, if agnosticism was predominant, would it attract such vehemence? I doubt it, since it does not profess to 'know', which is the contentious point when one does not agree that the person claiming he actually does 'know' what is best for others. I don't claim to know what is best for anyone, it is a task to try to do so for myself, I have no time to bother others even if I did claim I 'knew' what was best for them.
Could God really have a 'favourite' faith? Are the one billion plus Muslims all just wrong? And would God punish one for being an atheist, if God did exist? Could Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus, Animists, Wiccans, Shinto, Ba'hai, etc. all be just wrong? What if one of them was God's pet faith? Why is that not an option to those who feel that their particular faith is?

[edit on 03 22 2005 by BlackGuardXIII]

I don't claim to know what is best for anyone... I only believe what I think is best. That doesn't mean God tells me what is best, it doesn't mean that I believe that God feels it is best... but it is best for me, for it is what I feel is important and valuable in the world. It is what I feel the world needs, and perhaps that may indeed seem shallow... but I have some conviction for sticking to my guns regardless. Wrong or right, I think this is my function in lie. Whether that is good or bad, right or wrong for others is irrelevant... I serve my function, and I have my purpose.

Perhaps I serve as an obstacle to some. Perhaps to othes, an inspiration.. and yet to others, as an example of what not to do. While I would naturally disagree with some points of view, even these people serve their functions. My own personal hope is that people will come to realize what they rationalize as fact, or truth, or divine. I wish only for mankind to reclaim it's humility, and abandon the drunken stupor that is pride.

Look at the symbol in my Avatar. That is what i represent, that is what I believe in... balance in all things, all things in moderation. If you tip too far to one side, then you have lost perspective.... focus, alignment, rationality. When you let one aspect rule your life, you value the other aspects less and it results in your own misplaced views.

Above all, HUMILITY is needed... it is the most treasured and valuable of virtues. If every man were to embrace their own humility, the world would be a better place.

but I have some conviction for sticking to my guns regardless. Wrong or right, I think this is my function in lie. Whether that is good or bad, right or wrong for others is irrelevant...

That right there says volumes about you and how you view thing's.

Look at the symbol in my Avatar. That is what i represent, that is what I believe in... balance in all things,

And yet, you teach the opposite. By your very own 'duty' of 'enlightening' your tipping that balance toward's your belief's. By leaving well alone, your letting nature balance itself out. Your not practicing what you preach. And of course, you already said that's irrelevent.

I am not contradicting myself.... why is it that you misunderstand not only me, but many other people you are speaking to? Are you so caught up in your own thought processes that you can't really see how other people think? I already know you are unwilling to accept any spiritual conversation because you believe it's all nonsense... so why are you persistently telling me what *I* think?

I am telling you flat out, you are misunderstanding what I am saying. You are interpreting my words in a manner that facilitates you continuing to critically attack things that simply are not there.

I am only contributing to imbalance if I felt that things were balanced BEFORE. And sometimes, when things are too balanced, they must be thrown OFF balance in order that they continue to grow. In the end, centering ones self is the preference...

You probably don't even know what the H#ll the symbol in my Avatar represents, do you?

Symbols don't have meaning themselve's. People put that meaning behind them. Their own self-centered ignorant meaning's. And you are tipping the balance. There are more religous people or people who believe in the spiritual world then there are who don't on this planet. By persuading/enlightening people to see the spiritual side of thing's, your bringing even more people over to that side, tipping the balance. The two differing belief's have never been too balanced in regards to each other. Through out all human history, the afterlife/spiritual aspect of life has been in power. Scientific reasoning has only taken a strong root in humanity for the last 200 years, and as a result of that we're here right now discussing this. You can't honestly believe that there are more non-believer's then there are believer's.. do you? Take a good look around this planet, what does it look like most people still believe in, the same thing's they've believed in for thousands of years now ... Where does the balance really sit and where are you placing it by "enlightening" more people in the sprititual.

You don't practice what your preaching nor do you contain any wisdom. Your practicing the opposite of what your saying and you impart you opinionated belief's and call that wisdom. Your a walking contradiction, not a misunderstanding.

[edit on 2-3-2006 by Produkt]

[edit on 2-3-2006 by Produkt]

The laughable thing about Christianity here is the people who keep saying 'Go to church, read the bible, learn about Jesus, let him in to your heart' etc. This goes beyond pathetic. It's an absolute absurd concept to push someone in to 'your' religion.

If I do become a part of your religion, what exact sect should I join. Once i've found my sect, what denomination should I therefore go to. The one that's closest and most convenient for me? Same with the bible, which one should I buy? The first one I find in a book shop...one with pictures? Which one is the right one? Are all right in their own way? If they're all right, then why so many?

This is just christianity, let alone the other hundreds of religions with their sects and denominations. I'm sure you're all aware of the fad of buying an acre on the moon, or naming a star after you as novalty persents. I don't think we're too far off being able to create your own religion online. Where you make up your story of life, put a few pages of writting down, have some rules and all you need is a name...and ta da, you've got you're very own religion.

That's how stupid the concept of religion is. The 3rd biggest group is atheists...we number over 1 billion. That's a whole lot of people, with a whole lot of free thought. Religion won't last forever, it's numbers get less and less everyday. People are waking up to this. Sure you may blame new age cults or religions, but these don't offer BS like christianity. These new age religions are mainly to cope with stress and life of the 21st century, rather than to brainwash people in to believing there's some make believe devine creator, who, if you don't believe in...you will go to hell.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
The laughable thing about Christianity here is the people who keep saying 'Go to church, read the bible, learn about Jesus, let him in to your heart' etc. This goes beyond pathetic. It's an absolute absurd concept to push someone in to 'your' religion.

That's not what I was saying at all. Simply keep your mind open and pray that God show you the sign you need to see for Him to reveal himself to you. I didn't say go to church, I didn't say read the Bible, and your very presence on these forums show that you're learning about Jesus. You don't have to go to church for God to reveal Himself to you (I didn't), you don't have to read the Bible for God to reveal Himself to you. You don't have to learn about Jesus for God to reveal Himself to you. You do have to open your mind, heart and eyes to the possibility you may be wrong, though, in your utter rejection of God. Abandon some of that pride, and you may be able to learn.

Originally posted by junglejake
That's not what I was saying at all. Simply keep your mind open and pray that God show you the sign you need to see for Him to reveal himself to you. I didn't say go to church, I didn't say read the Bible

Don't flatter yourself I wasn't talking about you, and most certainly not you specifically. Let me know where I mentioned your name

However, I have on here been told to go to church, to learn, or read the bible. So it was at those, that it was aimed at. Like it or not, I don't need God. You do. You're weak minded. You have the 'need' for there to be a heaven or afterlife. This is in no way proof. This merely proves your own stupidity to go to such lengths to disilusion yourself so much, that you actually believe God is real and in death there is life etc.

Like I said before, I've been in churches, been at schools that made us pray, my mind was open back then as I didn't really have a specific opinion, hell I doubt i'd heard of evolution at the point in my life. God had many chances to 'show himself'. However, he didn't. Not once. Maybe they didn't brainwash me enough eh? I don't care for made up concepts of God.

and your very presence on these forums show that you're learning about Jesus.

My presence on these forums, and seeing the general christian attitude takes me further away each time I come here.

You don't have to go to church for God to reveal Himself to you (I didn't), you don't have to read the Bible for God to reveal Himself to you. You don't have to learn about Jesus for God to reveal Himself to you.

You do need to know about God and Jesus for them to reveal themselves to you. No person on the planet who hasn't heard of Jesus, believes in him. Tucked away tribes in the brazilian rain forests don't pray to your God and certainly not Jesus. They have their own concepts of religion and Gods/Spirits. They don't need Jesus, or a stupid holy trinity and bible BS. Go sell your idea somewhere else, people on here aren't buying it!

You do have to open your mind, heart and eyes to the possibility you may be wrong, though, in your utter rejection of God. Abandon some of that pride, and you may be able to learn.

You say 'open mind' like you've got one. Perhaps you should abandon some of your pride, to come to the conclusion that you're wrong? You said that's what I should do. Why shouldn't you do that? My convictions of there being no God, are just as strong as yours for there being a God. Yet, i'm the one who has to be open minded? That coming from a person who believes in some ancient book on complete faith alone is prety hypocritical.

You need to wake up to the fact that you're dupped like most of the earth's population. If you would have lived in ancient greece, you would have believed in their gods. If you had lived in ancient egypt, you would have believed in their gods. The fact that you live in the 21st century, and the consiquences of your life experiences, led you to believe in bible BS. You're now a christian with one thought, one ideology, and certainly not an open mind. You're not a person. People think for themselves, not told what to do by some book.

I'm sick of christians, i'm sick of religion, i'm sick of the BS christian attitude on here that they're better than the rest of us. You're not alone! another 4 billion people have beliefs in other gods and prophets. Your religion is not a unique snowflake. Your beliefs are delussional at best. The fact that the great majority of people grow up with religious backgrounds, end up becoming religious should tell you a thing or two. Religion is force-fed all around the world to kids and adults. They all take it in. Their lives are so pathetic they have to have faith in something. If religion cannot offer them this tranquillity they'll go elsewhere...the pub, drugs, cosmetic surgery...anything to make themselves feel better about themselves.

Religion, it's pathetic. This topic is pathetic. Here a title is 'anti-christian conspiracy' and christians have to try and get on the subject of converting me and get me to open my mind to pray. WTF does that have to do with anything? we're not here to save me. i don't need to be saved. the sooner christians get that in their minds the sooner the world will be a better place. the reason why christians feel their religion is picked on? perhaps it's because your religion is the most annoying. hell i'd happily invite two JW in my house for tea than two plain old christians.