Originally posted by jake1997
Why are so many people soo anti christian?
Great Thread jake1997 ! You are absolutely right when it comes to the slammers of christianity hi jacking all of the christian threads. A christian will place his topic of discussion and BAM here come the bashers !
It only showes the weekness of the world as a whole. People are afraid of what they don't or can't comprehend.
Just remember that God didn't create everyone to obtain everlasting life in heaven. He did create individuals that are damned. As we all where born into sin. I know that the non-beleivers will be up in arms over this statement but I didn't say it, God did.
He didn't create each and every person as a robot to automatically serve Him. He could of easily have done this !
But He the Lord Jesus wants us to Get on our Knees and swallow our earthly pride and ask for forgivness and pick up our cross and follow Him.
Also remember that there are also the chosen the pre-destined and the ones that come onto Him.
Satan influences this world and the people in it to acheive his agenda which is to destroy christainity. He uses those as pawns and leaves their souls to burn.
Just as God uses His own children to acheive His agenda. We as christians are all apart of Gods agenda. By us spreading the gospel to all ends of the earth His promises will be fullfilled and He will return once again for the last time to gather His children.
Well - I think that I stirred up enough. Just crusie around on the site and you can see on any topic of religion- christianity gets brought up even though Christainty is not a religion and they start slamming the believers.
Have Fun and Stay Faithful !
Your Brother,
The Truthisoutthere
The Anti-Christian conspiracy, page 8
privacy
reply posted on 4-4-2005 @ 01:26 AM by Balaams donkey
thelibra
Agreed, your point is valid, pertaining to inconsistency. If it does occur then, this is in error. The mind is fluid thing and can wander into dark jungles of error or silliness, this happens all the more, when reason is lost. It also occurs when those following any dogma or doctrine, lose sight of the foundation or reason of that codex's existence. This is occurring in rapid fashion with the U.S. Constitution. The framers reasons are, all but lost in twisted reasoning, and technical subterfuges. St. John Chrysostom says “the mother of heresy is the desire to control..” Alas..
We will continue, via u2u.
Take care my friend; it is most enjoyable to reason together.
1wintermute1,
Sorry, I forgot about you in my enjoyment of discourse with Libra. As it is always a good feeling to have discourse with someone, who is not afraid of truth or reason, where ever it is found. Some think because of the strength of my attacks on some points, that I enjoy this. It is not true, but as necessary task, to show the weakness of lies.
Also, as you noticed so quickly I have not returned you question. Now, you have asked. But, it is your turn, to return my questions. As it is well noted, that you did not responded to your error of blaming Christianity for all of the killings on earth. Nor, did you respond to the wisdom of freedom of arms. Nor did you respond to the Documented History of Christ, or the logic presented. I think, because of your avoidance in these matters, that you only bow your the pride of your mind and not reason. If this is so, then what would be the use of presenting you with further correction. Would I not be "casting pearls before swine?" , or leading a horse to water that he refuses to drink?
Having said all that, and knowing that if I do not prove my case yet once more, some, in error would cry foul. I will offer proof, but since I believe you will not accept truth, when shown, I will not continue with such foolishness.
Like your statement, "ALL THEOLOGICAL SCHOLARS AGREE ON THIS." this is shear folly, and completely without support, you without thinking blindly follow the claims of the books you read, then thinking you will be sound when presenting such in public. This is nonsense. As even the link you posted stated this:
"Concerning the issue of Christianity, for example, the majority of people are taught in most schools and churches that Jesus Christ was an actual historical figure"
A clear contradiction of your statement. Let us continue
Now to the examples of the links you sited. First the documentation is only of other "claims" by other authors, sure the author site examples, as if it is some source but it is only another author like himself. Not a valid historical claim, case in point:
1) Claim:
In fact, Pope Leo X, privy to the truth because of his high rank, made this curious declaration, "What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"15
the footnote:
The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, by Barbara Walker, p. 471. Rev. Taylor, in The Diegesis, reports a slightly different version of Leo X's admission: "It was well known how profitable this fable of Christ has been to us." (footnote, p. 35.)
Refute: While it is true I do not have a copy of either of these books, I do have the complete collection of the Early Church Fathers, which must be the only solid source for these quotes. Researching them, Pope Leo never said any such thing. So one is left wondering the source of the quote?
Now some things St. Pope Leo of Rome did say:
V. Christ's flesh is proved real from Scripture.
Therefore in consequence of this unity of person which is to be understood in both natures(7), we read of the Son of Man also descending from heaven, when the Son of GOD took flesh from the Virgin who bore Him. And again the Son of GOD is said to have been crucified and buried, although it was not actually in His Divinity whereby the Only-begotten is co-eternal and con-substantial with the Father, but in His weak human nature that He suffered these things. And so it is that in the Creed also we all confess that the Only-begotten Son of God was crucified and buried, according to that saying of the Apostle: "for if they had known, they would never have crucified the LORD of glory(8)."
St. Pope Leo of Rome, The great letters,
Letter xxviii: to Flavain, the Tome.
2) Claim:
Wheless says, "The so-called 'canonical' books of the New Testament, as of the Old, are a mess of contradictions and confusions of text, to the present estimate of 150,000 and more 'variant readings,' as is well known and admitted."26
(26) footnote:
...Then he (Jesus) is made to say, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (It is also interesting to note that the Trinity was not adopted by the Church until the 4th century, long after "Jesus's" purported statements concerning it. These proselytizers, then, were awfully slow in their preaching of this doctrine!) ... (edited for space)
The Refute:
This footnote does not support the statement at all. Moreover it claim, is false regarding the Trinity. Now lets use St. Pope Leo of Rome, because the author give him authority, to be able to claim Jesus is a fable, and that because he is Pope, thus, his word is valid.
II. (1) The Priscillianists' denial of the Trinity refuted.
And so under the first head is shown what unholy views they hold about the Divine Trinity: they affirm that the person of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is one and the same, as if the same GOD were named now Father, now Son, and now Holy Ghost: and as if He who begot were not one, He who was begotten, another, and He who proceeded from both, yet another; but an undivided unity must be understood, spoken of under three names, indeed, but not consisting of three persons. This species of blasphemy they borrowed from Sabellius, whose followers were rightly called Patripassians also: because if the Son is identical with the Father, the Son's cross is the Father's passion (patris-passio): and the Father took on Himself all that the Son took in the form of a slave, and in obedience to the Father. Which without doubt is contrary to the catholic faith, which acknowledges the Trinity of the Godhead to be of one essence (homoou'sion) in such a way that it believes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost indivisible without confusion, eternal without time, equal without difference: because it is not the same person but the same essence which fills the Unity in Trinity
St. Pope Leo of Rome: The great letters.
letter xiv: to anastansius, bishop of thessaloinca
Eied 10 November, 461
"Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third," I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant;
Clement of Rome:
Book V Chapter XIV.
Died year 91 A.D was converted by Paul.
I am done showing you this is all in error and made up lies, if were to spend weeks of my life and money to by all the books he mentioned, I imagine it could be completely refuted, I simply checked the first two quotes that were easy to check and both were lies. Believe them if you wish, ATS has a rule against lying so please research what you post first.
I think this put you at 5 and 0, take care.
You can read the Early Chruch Fathers here if you really care:
www.ccel.org...
And truthfully, I don't even have a problem with Catholics using the crucifix, as it honestly has no bearing on my life whatsoever. My specific point was that I feel their particular use, of that particular symbol, is in violation of the very book the religion was founded on. .....
....... However, I'm not so much attacking the Catholic religion, so much as pointing out what I perceive to be an inconsistancy. I'd do the same for any religion though.
Agreed, your point is valid, pertaining to inconsistency. If it does occur then, this is in error. The mind is fluid thing and can wander into dark jungles of error or silliness, this happens all the more, when reason is lost. It also occurs when those following any dogma or doctrine, lose sight of the foundation or reason of that codex's existence. This is occurring in rapid fashion with the U.S. Constitution. The framers reasons are, all but lost in twisted reasoning, and technical subterfuges. St. John Chrysostom says “the mother of heresy is the desire to control..” Alas..
We will continue, via u2u.
Take care my friend; it is most enjoyable to reason together.
1wintermute1,
Sorry, I forgot about you in my enjoyment of discourse with Libra. As it is always a good feeling to have discourse with someone, who is not afraid of truth or reason, where ever it is found. Some think because of the strength of my attacks on some points, that I enjoy this. It is not true, but as necessary task, to show the weakness of lies.
Also, as you noticed so quickly I have not returned you question. Now, you have asked. But, it is your turn, to return my questions. As it is well noted, that you did not responded to your error of blaming Christianity for all of the killings on earth. Nor, did you respond to the wisdom of freedom of arms. Nor did you respond to the Documented History of Christ, or the logic presented. I think, because of your avoidance in these matters, that you only bow your the pride of your mind and not reason. If this is so, then what would be the use of presenting you with further correction. Would I not be "casting pearls before swine?" , or leading a horse to water that he refuses to drink?
Having said all that, and knowing that if I do not prove my case yet once more, some, in error would cry foul. I will offer proof, but since I believe you will not accept truth, when shown, I will not continue with such foolishness.
Like your statement, "ALL THEOLOGICAL SCHOLARS AGREE ON THIS." this is shear folly, and completely without support, you without thinking blindly follow the claims of the books you read, then thinking you will be sound when presenting such in public. This is nonsense. As even the link you posted stated this:
"Concerning the issue of Christianity, for example, the majority of people are taught in most schools and churches that Jesus Christ was an actual historical figure"
A clear contradiction of your statement. Let us continue
Now to the examples of the links you sited. First the documentation is only of other "claims" by other authors, sure the author site examples, as if it is some source but it is only another author like himself. Not a valid historical claim, case in point:
1) Claim:
In fact, Pope Leo X, privy to the truth because of his high rank, made this curious declaration, "What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"15
the footnote:
The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets, by Barbara Walker, p. 471. Rev. Taylor, in The Diegesis, reports a slightly different version of Leo X's admission: "It was well known how profitable this fable of Christ has been to us." (footnote, p. 35.)
Refute: While it is true I do not have a copy of either of these books, I do have the complete collection of the Early Church Fathers, which must be the only solid source for these quotes. Researching them, Pope Leo never said any such thing. So one is left wondering the source of the quote?
Now some things St. Pope Leo of Rome did say:
V. Christ's flesh is proved real from Scripture.
Therefore in consequence of this unity of person which is to be understood in both natures(7), we read of the Son of Man also descending from heaven, when the Son of GOD took flesh from the Virgin who bore Him. And again the Son of GOD is said to have been crucified and buried, although it was not actually in His Divinity whereby the Only-begotten is co-eternal and con-substantial with the Father, but in His weak human nature that He suffered these things. And so it is that in the Creed also we all confess that the Only-begotten Son of God was crucified and buried, according to that saying of the Apostle: "for if they had known, they would never have crucified the LORD of glory(8)."
St. Pope Leo of Rome, The great letters,
Letter xxviii: to Flavain, the Tome.
2) Claim:
Wheless says, "The so-called 'canonical' books of the New Testament, as of the Old, are a mess of contradictions and confusions of text, to the present estimate of 150,000 and more 'variant readings,' as is well known and admitted."26
(26) footnote:
...Then he (Jesus) is made to say, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (It is also interesting to note that the Trinity was not adopted by the Church until the 4th century, long after "Jesus's" purported statements concerning it. These proselytizers, then, were awfully slow in their preaching of this doctrine!) ... (edited for space)
The Refute:
This footnote does not support the statement at all. Moreover it claim, is false regarding the Trinity. Now lets use St. Pope Leo of Rome, because the author give him authority, to be able to claim Jesus is a fable, and that because he is Pope, thus, his word is valid.
II. (1) The Priscillianists' denial of the Trinity refuted.
And so under the first head is shown what unholy views they hold about the Divine Trinity: they affirm that the person of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is one and the same, as if the same GOD were named now Father, now Son, and now Holy Ghost: and as if He who begot were not one, He who was begotten, another, and He who proceeded from both, yet another; but an undivided unity must be understood, spoken of under three names, indeed, but not consisting of three persons. This species of blasphemy they borrowed from Sabellius, whose followers were rightly called Patripassians also: because if the Son is identical with the Father, the Son's cross is the Father's passion (patris-passio): and the Father took on Himself all that the Son took in the form of a slave, and in obedience to the Father. Which without doubt is contrary to the catholic faith, which acknowledges the Trinity of the Godhead to be of one essence (homoou'sion) in such a way that it believes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost indivisible without confusion, eternal without time, equal without difference: because it is not the same person but the same essence which fills the Unity in Trinity
St. Pope Leo of Rome: The great letters.
letter xiv: to anastansius, bishop of thessaloinca
Eied 10 November, 461
"Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third," I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant;
Clement of Rome:
Book V Chapter XIV.
Died year 91 A.D was converted by Paul.
I am done showing you this is all in error and made up lies, if were to spend weeks of my life and money to by all the books he mentioned, I imagine it could be completely refuted, I simply checked the first two quotes that were easy to check and both were lies. Believe them if you wish, ATS has a rule against lying so please research what you post first.
I think this put you at 5 and 0, take care.
You can read the Early Chruch Fathers here if you really care:
www.ccel.org...
reply posted on 4-4-2005 @ 03:42 AM by Balaams donkey
AAAAAAhhhhhh!
I went through all that work, and you get banned! Drat!
1wintermute1 ! There you are trapped in Antarctic, and now you are banned on ATS. Well, I hope I answered you questions.
In the end, please research the books you read, a lot of people publish a lot of garbage. Sorry about my spelling and grammer.
There is a very good book out there called, now I am not joking or insulting your intelligence, I always keep a copy of the book around.
How to read a book, by Dr. Adler Mortimer. It is simply the greatest book written on how to learn if a book is valid. I am not playing with you I mean it, I think you will really like it. Thanks.
Remember arm the masses, the life you save maybe your own!
Take care.
www.amazon.com...
I went through all that work, and you get banned! Drat!
1wintermute1 ! There you are trapped in Antarctic, and now you are banned on ATS. Well, I hope I answered you questions.
In the end, please research the books you read, a lot of people publish a lot of garbage. Sorry about my spelling and grammer.
There is a very good book out there called, now I am not joking or insulting your intelligence, I always keep a copy of the book around.
How to read a book, by Dr. Adler Mortimer. It is simply the greatest book written on how to learn if a book is valid. I am not playing with you I mean it, I think you will really like it. Thanks.
Remember arm the masses, the life you save maybe your own!
Take care.
www.amazon.com...
reply posted on 4-4-2005 @ 06:39 PM by Light Being
Originally posted by Balaams donkey
Howdy, light
Gee, if people would only become occultists everything would be groovy. Then the truth would be known. We would all be full of light and life. Christians say the same thing, and you attack?
Well, I was and Occult Master, and it is of the devil! That is why I became a Christian. Most people do not want to be involved in Occult because they know it is evil. I was brave and tried it out, whole hog! Well guess what, it is evil on top and it is evil on the bottom, you are a victim of Satan.
I once before asked you if the name Cyprian meant anything to you, and you never answered me. Cyprian was the at one time the world greatest Occultist, far greater that mere Crowley. He did an about face when he saw that the power of cross defeated every power of Satan. So look him up his life, it is available on the net. Unless your, still caught up in impulse and fear.
BTW, you never flew over to my house and raised stones into sons of Abraham, what happened? Is your godhood tired, did god forget?
Oh you again, howdy I s'pose.
Well, look, I answered quite a few of your questions, where as you wrote off all of mine.
Now you mean to take the whole world of the occult, and apply it's lessons of morality from only the example of Cyprian. I have looked into him somewhat and have had trouble finding details from his conversion, it was said to happen between 245-248 A.D. but details are scarce, if you could supply some sources on this it would be appreciated. The sad fact is, that you don't indentify the miracles of Christ as occult phenomenon, which by the true definition of the occult, they are. I have given you many leads to further investigate what I mean by this in our previous entanglement, so I leave it up to you to answer my unregarded questions for your understanding, do as you wish.
Your perversion of the occult is not uncommon, and I may understand that you have come to this conclusion as many orders and societies on this planet are into what you may know as Black magic. It is only one mere side of the coin, and I am not in any regard a Satanist, I do take that as an insult, and ask you to kindly stop toting that label towards me if you wish any further conversation.
All occult means in Latin is "that which is hidden" ...be it, what is hidden from view. There are higher forms of nature that are hidden from the understanding of most, though not in the regard of the one you call Jesus, and so rightfully he could perform miracles. I don't intend to debate this with you further as you subject me with countless fallacy, mainly circular reasoning.
I would still be interested, respectively, in your background as an occultist. If you could mention in any detail what rituals, if any, you performed, as well as any organizations you were arranged with, it would bring insight to an otherwise Red Herring.
As for raising stones, by your own right you are being blasphemous, as you are not to test the lord your God.
If you insist in making a further a$$ of yourself, I won't stop you, with pun in mind, it would not be out of your character.
[edit on 4-4-2005 by Light Being]
reply posted on 5-4-2005 @ 02:36 AM by Balaams donkey
light
The sad fact is, that you don't indentify the miracles of Christ as occult phenomenon, which by the true definition of the occult, they are. I have given you many leads to further investigate what I mean by this in our previous entanglement, so I leave it up to you to answer my unregarded questions for your understanding, do as you wish.
Hi lightbeing,
Your claim, miracles of Christ are really just occult phenomenon, or magic. Ok, I can see how someone could think this, I must say, I certainly did for most of my life. Then reason showed up, and showed how this could not be so.
In all of my studies, I have never read of any occultist raising someone from the dead, as do Christians, they can call up demons to infest a corpse, but not have power over life. Most occults, try and teach that Jesus was just meditating on the Cross and did not die. This is a really big lie, they pierced his side with a lance and blood and water came forth, showing the heart was priced. The Jews who "hated" him wanted to make sure that he was dead, before Passover so they ask Pilate to kill the crucified, he said he would. They buried, him and list is quite long. No occultist that I have ever seen can do any more that remove pain, or do energy work, compared to Christ raising the dead, healing withered limbs, curing the blind, the deaf and dumb, and so on.
Can you name any non-Christian that can do those things? If you are god as you claim can you do those things?
TESTING SPIRITS
As for raising stones, by your own right you are being blasphemous, as you are not to test the lord your God.
No, I am not, read the Bible, it says there are unclean spirits, and the spirit of Truth, it say be not deceived,
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but TRY the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (false prophet, that would be you) Yes, you should not test God if you know it is Him, but it does tell us to test the spirits, to see if they are God or not.
ON MAGIC
Acts 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
Acts 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Now the Lord is very clear that magic is bad. Now you said the Occult means hidden, that is not what we are talking about and you know it. It is about magic, and magic is not Christian, is it. The great difference is the when, The Lord does something, it is His right as he is King and God, it is not our right to rebel by witchcraft just because we don’t like it.
1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Now about Cyprian, you can find an account of his life here,
www.orthodoxinfo.com...
It is a very nice story, I think you will enjoy it, really I mean you no harm, I know what you are saying is not true. Now, no one likes to hear that, not you or me. So please do not feel that I am attack you, only what you say.
MY PAST
I studied, and trained with many Occult masters, Druidism, Zen, Tibetan Buddhism, witchcraft, Tai chi, yoga, and the like. I was introduced to these things as a very young boy, and studied them for years, with some of the greatest masters. I believed in what I was doing as you do, so I am no one to judge you, but I can say what you believe in is in error, in fact I fight you for two reasons, one, so no one will believe what you are saying and enter into to doom, and so that you might relies what you are doing is a lie.
Since you are being civil, I too wish nothing more than to be likewise with you, so if you wish to discuss this reasonably, and logically, I will be as helpful in this as possible. You may ask me any question you wish as long as It does not require me to give someone’s name. Also what school are you from?
Sorry this is so long, I did not know how to make it shorter.
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