The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
I can say with a great deal of confidence that if you do not believe, invite the devil in then whack him with the NAME.

I don't know how to put it more plainly than stop it. Invite ultimate danger just to prove you can survive through it? Drive into a wall at 100mph because you know you have a seatbelt and airbag? The devil asked Christ to throw himself down to prove God would rescue him. His reply:

Jesus answered him, "It is also written: Do not put the Lord your God to the test." - Matthew 4:7

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
You will find real quick that there is truely a God and the authority of HIS name is absolute.

At what cost? Can you guarentee it's God's will that a person is to be saved this way? I'll test everything, except for God.

You've got a lot of great things to say OneGodJesus, but why you're insisting on putting people through Hell, I still do not understand.

Alright, then tell me. How were you to know God if you didn't go through that torment? The Word says that when we think we are great God thinks us small, and when we think we are weak God thinks us great. God delighting in using the humble or weak to confound the mighty (in thier own eyes). The only way to get to the true gold is burn off the dross. So it is with unbelief. You had to surrender and repent before God could work with you. Put you on the potters wheel so to speak.

There is a way that seems right unto man, but that leads to eternal suffering. Jesus can and will save you IF (the more important word in the Bible) you repent, Take on His Name in baptism, and surrender. He WILL give you the gift of the Holy Spirit as evidenced by tongues. It is a promise and you know God doesn't lie. So challenge His Word and it comes out true every time. Experience life with a life changing experience.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Alright, then tell me. How were you to know God if you didn't go through that torment?

I have seen people come to saving faith in Christ by talking, answering questions and understanding what they kind of already knew in their heart. It's a peacefully lovely thing. No danger involved.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
The Word says that when we think we are great God thinks us small, and when we think we are weak God thinks us great. God delighting in using the humble or weak to confound the mighty (in thier own eyes). The only way to get to the true gold is burn off the dross. So it is with unbelief. You had to surrender and repent before God could work with you. Put you on the potters wheel so to speak.

I can certainly agree with all that. I just don't know if it requires such drastic measures where neither you nor I know the outcome. Are we bump them into the fire or help pull them out of it?

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
So challenge His Word and it comes out true every time.

Ya, but declaring a war with the devil with no armor or weapons? Indeed those who can find God in time would survive, but what of those who don't?

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Experience life with a life changing experience.

I submit that it is life changing whether it's violent (like my experience) or through peace (like those who I've witnessed). If a single person has found Christ with your words as a helping guide, then it seems we're just two different sides of the perspective. Some who seek truth by coming face-to-face with an eternally painful death, and others who want to find God through a much calmer approach. Interesting.

Those who want the calmer approach to receiving the free gift of eternal life, send U2U for details.



[edit on 5-12-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
One point one, where are you finding this the the creation story was not believed to be literally true?

I take it you haven't read the writings of the church fathers? Origen specifically addressed the allegorical nature of Gensis in "Against Celsus".

This is simply one reference of many. The early church viewed scripture allegorically, not literally. Biblical literalism is relatively new, dating to the Reformation.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Point two, the ultimate cause of everything? Are the parents the ultimate cause of thier children going bad or good?

No, because parents are not themselves the ultimate cause, nor are they omniscient and omnipotent. If you knew your potential child would grow up to be a murderer and you decided to have him anyway, then yes, you would be culpable.

Culpability involves foreknowledge and an ability to take action. God had both, yet proceeded anyway. That makes him guilty. A child could see the absurdity of intentionally creating something that you know you won't like.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
That is what free will is my friend.

Free will does not get god off the hook for knowingly creating something that would offend him. Besides, there are several places in the OT where god interferes with free-will, so it's hardly sacrosanct.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
One point one, where are you finding this the the creation story was not believed to be literally true?

I take it you haven't read the writings of the church fathers? Origen specifically addressed the allegorical nature of Gensis in "Against Celsus".

This is simply one reference of many. The early church viewed scripture allegorically, not literally. Biblical literalism is relatively new, dating to the Reformation.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
Point two, the ultimate cause of everything? Are the parents the ultimate cause of thier children going bad or good?

No, because parents are not themselves the ultimate cause, nor are they omniscient and omnipotent. If you knew your potential child would grow up to be a murderer and you decided to have him anyway, then yes, you would be culpable.

Culpability involves foreknowledge and an ability to take action. God had both, yet proceeded anyway. That makes him guilty. A child could see the absurdity of intentionally creating something that you know you won't like.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
That is what free will is my friend.

Free will does not get god off the hook for knowingly creating something that would offend him. Besides, there are several places in the OT where god interferes with free-will, so it's hardly sacrosanct.

Actually I know quite a lot of early church history and where it went wrong from the original teachings. He was a teacher of Christian Neoplatonism. And was useful in turning around the Gnostic teachings. His major problem was that he allowed pagan influence to sway his judgement and he therefore contaminated the Word and his mind instead of sticking with the core doctrine.. As in the letters from Paul and the other Apostles, which is why his teachings are invalid as a frame of referrence, IMO. Now if you want to really know what the real deal is and who stuck with core principals, you would research what Neotus, Epigonus, Cleomenes, Sabellius (I like him especially), Marcellus, Photinus, Praxeus, Eleutherus, Victor, Zephyyrinus, Cailistus all have to say about the early church. Just because the majority group of people get together and say something that changes core doctrine is right makes it correct. If you search the scriptures you will find consistency with what the Apostolic Fathers both believed, taught and practiced.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
you would research what Neotus, Epigonus, Cleomenes, Sabellius (I like him especially), Marcellus, Photinus, Praxeus, Eleutherus, Victor, Zephyyrinus, Cailistus ...

I don't know how you could consider a group of anti-trinitarians approaching Gnostic docetism (generally considered heretics) to be church fathers, or that this in any way demonstrates an early literalist perspective.

Callistus excommunicated Sabellius.

Antitrinitarians in the early church

An example of the conspiracy against Christianity; On this mornings 'news' programme, "the 'Holiday' season is a time of joy (blah, positive blah) but 'Christmas' (blah, endless negative, miserable blah)..."

So what, you might say, but it's this sort of 'drip fed' propaganda that the whole world is being irrigated with, that has the most effect. It's these 'mozzies' that seem too tiny to bat away, if you see them, that give you deadly maleria.

Just trying to point out why so many Christians, who do notice this 'drip feeding' are so 'miffed'.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
you would research what Neotus, Epigonus, Cleomenes, Sabellius (I like him especially), Marcellus, Photinus, Praxeus, Eleutherus, Victor, Zephyyrinus, Cailistus ...

I don't know how you could consider a group of anti-trinitarians approaching Gnostic docetism (generally considered heretics) to be church fathers, or that this in any way demonstrates an early literalist perspective.

Callistus excommunicated Sabellius.

Antitrinitarians in the early church

Because the majority rule is not always right and the "church" today is a false church and is caving to public pressure and fads. The bible foretold this and it has happened. There is a church around today but its numbers are small compaired to the megachurches. Size does not mean a thing other than people want to attend a social/event driven club of semi-like minded people. When you heap unto yourselves teachersIn the early days of the church there were men who stood out and proclaimed the same truth the Apostolic fathers had. They were excommunicated and in some cases executed for their stance. "As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine" (I Timothy 1:3).

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Sorry but you're wrong about me and countless people around the world who grew up in other cultures yet found truth in The Bible that lead them to give up the faiths of their cultures.

Replace The Bible with The Khoran or any other holy scripture and your statement would be equally valid.

Originally posted by EyesOfTheFuture

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Sorry but you're wrong about me and countless people around the world who grew up in other cultures yet found truth in The Bible that lead them to give up the faiths of their cultures.

Replace The Bible with The Khoran or any other holy scripture and your statement would be equally valid.

I would disagree as I have read portions of the Koran and this book side by side and found that not all "holy books" are alike and that the experience of one individual in relation to these books can be drastically different person to person. The book is titled "Islam & Terrorism" I include the following description: "The Western media declares that "at its core, Islam is moderate and tolerant of others" (New York Times Magazine). Author Mark A. Gabriel, former professor of Islamic history at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt, disagrees. He says that terrorists are practicing Islam just as Muhammad intended." This fellow was a professor at the highest ranking Islamic school in the world located in Cairo. And he says it is eye wash in the media and in "American Islam" to say it is a peaceful religion. While I disagree with his christian theology, I do see what he says to be true regarding this "holy book" called the Koran. IMO. How many Buddists or Taoists blow themselves up trying to change the world to their views [remember Tiennamen (sp?) square]. For that matter how many christian do? Answer...none.

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
How many Buddists or Taoists blow themselves up trying to change the world to their views [remember Tiennamen (sp?) square]. For that matter how many christian do? Answer...none.

Forgive me for questioning your beliefs, but you question beliefs, so I guess it is fair.

How many blow themselves up trying to change the world to their views?

If Christ was God, and Christ knew what God knew, and God knows everything, then .. . .

to blow something up is to be activating a self destruct mechanism.

Jesus was all knowing and of God who is all knowing . . . . .

Jesus's behavior through his actions and behaviors demonstrated to me a certain level of activating a self destructions mechanism, especially if he was in any part destroyed, with pre-knowledge of it.

Answer . . . . . None?

Answer: Jesus Christ exhibited self destructive behavior.

Peace,
John

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Originally posted by OneGodJesus
How many Buddists or Taoists blow themselves up trying to change the world to their views [remember Tiennamen (sp?) square]. For that matter how many christian do? Answer...none.

Forgive me for questioning your beliefs, but you question beliefs, so I guess it is fair.

How many blow themselves up trying to change the world to their views?

If Christ was God, and Christ knew what God knew, and God knows everything, then .. . .

to blow something up is to be activating a self destruct mechanism.

Jesus was all knowing and of God who is all knowing . . . . .

Jesus's behavior through his actions and behaviors demonstrated to me a certain level of activating a self destructions mechanism, especially if he was in any part destroyed, with pre-knowledge of it.

Answer . . . . . None?

Answer: Jesus Christ exhibited self destructive behavior.

Peace,
John

Errrr...ok. Not real sure I understand but let me take a stab at it. Is what you're saying like this. God is Jesus and knows everything. Jesus knew he was going to die and did it anyway. Knowing he was going to die makes him self destructive. Am I on target?

If so, since the garden man has been in perpetual cloud of sin (disobedience to God, akin to disobedience to your parents and in the corner for punishment). Since sin required a payment it was determined that blood would make it right. Unfortunately for us, at that time, all we had was what God had created to atone for our father's (Adam and Eve) sinful act of disobedience. It wasn't good enough because it was not man who was sacrificed for his species sin. Since sin was on all, no one was good enough to atone. God made the way of escape from the corner by coming himself robed in flesh. Since he did no sin, was formed by His Spirit at conception, he took on the mantle of man and God at the same time. When he was sacrificed his flesh cried out but his Spirit sustained him through the pain. Afterward that same Spirit raised up His body and now inhabits it in heaven. I you follow the salvation plan, as my sig says, he will live in you too. Claro?

Sorry the typos are killing me

[edit on 6/12/05 by OneGodJesus]

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Jesus's behavior through his actions and behaviors demonstrated to me a certain level of activating a self destructions mechanism, especially if he was in any part destroyed, with pre-knowledge of it.

Christ is still alive.

[edit on 6-12-2005 by saint4God]

The other day I was walking off the subway with my wife and two kids. We were coming back from seeing Phantom Of The Opera in Chicago, and it was pretty late. We got off the train at the stop near to where our car was, on Roosevelt and Michigan. Walking towards the stairs with my wife, kids in tow, we all heard a loud, "Hey!"

All of us seemed to react at the same time. We all turned around and saw a man in a brown trench coat holding a pistol in our direction, sneer on his face. Because of how everything took place, our kids were in front of my wife and I, between us and the gun. The guy told us we had to give him all of our valuables or he'd kill both of our kids. To make the point, he rose the gun towards Johnny as a look of determination came over his face.

Seeing this, I dove in front of Johnny just as the mugger pulled the trigger. The bullet hit me instead, killing me instantly.

Now, was I being self destructive in that action, or was I trying to protect my child?

junglejake, i see your point, but then there's the whole point about the option to give up something less valuable than your life, your money....

you didn't give a very good example there

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
junglejake, i see your point, but then there's the whole point about the option to give up something less valuable than your life, your money....

you didn't give a very good example there

Aite, lemme rewrite an aspect of the story, if that'll make you feel better about an anology.


Because of how everything took place, our kids were in front of my wife and I, between us and the gun. The guy told us we had to give him all of our valuables or he'd kill both of our kids. To make the point, he rose the gun towards Johnny as a look of determination came over his face.

Seeing what he meant to do, I shoved my wife in front of my children, protecting them as he pulled the trigger, killing my wife instantly.

Feel better?


EDIT: No fair, by the way, changing the question after an answer has been given, then saying the person didn't answer the new question very well. That's what we here in latin-based language speaking nations call Ex Post Facto.

[edit on 12-6-2005 by junglejake]

still could've given him the money

How about the guy with the gun says, "I hate kids, they're going to die" then I jumped in front and caught the bullet. The man fled afraid of being discovered. Are we getting closer or are we still trying to miss the obvious point?

[edit on 6-12-2005 by saint4God]

i never said that i missed the point, i just said it was a bad example

Originally posted by OneGodJesus

Originally posted by EyesOfTheFuture

Originally posted by suzy ryan
Sorry but you're wrong about me and countless people around the world who grew up in other cultures yet found truth in The Bible that lead them to give up the faiths of their cultures.

Replace The Bible with The Khoran or any other holy scripture and your statement would be equally valid.

I would disagree as I have read portions of the Koran and this book side by side and found that not all "holy books" are alike and that the experience of one individual in relation to these books can be drastically different person to person. The book is titled "Islam & Terrorism" I include the following description: "The Western media declares that "at its core, Islam is moderate and tolerant of others" (New York Times Magazine). Author Mark A. Gabriel, former professor of Islamic history at Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt, disagrees. He says that terrorists are practicing Islam just as Muhammad intended." This fellow was a professor at the highest ranking Islamic school in the world located in Cairo. And he says it is eye wash in the media and in "American Islam" to say it is a peaceful religion. While I disagree with his christian theology, I do see what he says to be true regarding this "holy book" called the Koran. IMO. How many Buddists or Taoists blow themselves up trying to change the world to their views [remember Tiennamen (sp?) square]. For that matter how many christian do? Answer...none.

all hail the super quote!

anyway, the quran does have 331 violent or cruel passages
HOWEVER
the bible has 837

Numbers 31 talks about the wholesale slaughter of an entire people, and the enslavement of the survivors. and god orders a sacrifice of animals...and humans... (Numbers 31:25-31)

i'd talk about all the other flaws in the bible on my list of 5020, but then i'd be here for a really long time. and i also have 1415 problems with the quran



[edit on 6-12-2005 by madnessinmysoul]

To have a belief system of any sort is to accept certain signals whilst disregarding other signals outside of the belief system. In my opinion there is no longer a need to believe or to disbelieve in anything - just to be open to all information, without forming judgements. If we were truthful to ourselves, and we were able to admit that the brain (our perception) is what creates belief in the first place, there would be no fundamentalism on this planet...