Originally posted by Toelint
What I should have said, is that JungleJake's thread has been conveniently hijacked and turned into an anti-christian "hit piece". I hope that makes it clearer.

As for "Christianizing" Capital Hill, I'll stick to the ole, "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's." appraoch, and leave Capital Hill to the politicians. If they happen to be Christian...well...what can I say?

Then (according to paragraph 2) you disagree with JungleJake's hysterical premise that people are trying to "silence" Christianity by not supporting efforts to indoctrinate it as an extension of the US government.

There's all kinds of anti-Christian, and I happen to hold those professing to be of the faith to a higher standard in that regard. In fact, I don't even know that I could logically make sense of calling anyone or anything not falsely professing to be of Christ anti-Christian.

Can you with any integrity?


[edit on 12-8-2005 by RANT]

Originally posted by Toelint
Bravo! I couln't have said it better myself!

Thanks Toelint! The love goes right back at ya.

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Just because your Agenda is unpopular and recieves a lot of derision and negative feedback hardly qualifies it as a conspiracy.

A natural agreement between people who don't follow your superstition, dogma and agenda doesn't mean there is any collusion involved.

Many people probably have a natural revulsion for the effort to spread ignorance, intollerance, and dictating your personal edicts on an otherwise free people.

Wishful thinking has you wanting to cast yourself/selves as the poor suffering victim of undue and unfair burdens by some paranoid conjured evil villain out there some where.

Save the drama for your mama and act like an adult. Show some actual integrity.

See yourselves unmasked as the wannabe tyrrants of all morality standards and dictators of laws.

You may want to play the victim.
You are the villains.

Christian NAZIs.
Heil Jesus!

Reality may be tough, but secular humanists don't revert to myths, superstitions and magic explanations to deal with it.
If you can't face reality it makes it difficult to deal with it pragmatically and logically.
They also don't cast themselves as the 'chosen' dictators to force dogma on others.
.

Just because your Agenda is unpopular and recieves a lot of derision and negative feedback hardly qualifies it as a conspiracy.

A natural agreement between people who don't follow your superstition, dogma and agenda doesn't mean there is any collusion involved.

Many people probably have a natural revulsion for the effort to spread ignorance, intollerance, and dictating your personal edicts on an otherwise free people.

Wishful thinking has you wanting to cast yourself/selves as the poor suffering victim of undue and unfair burdens by some paranoid conjured evil villain out there some where.

I take it you don't consider Secular Humanism to be an Alternate Religion. Odd, that's exactly what it was touted as by the famous Humanists of history.

Save the drama for your mama and act like an adult. Show some actual integrity.

Can I use that line the next time I visit the Politics forums and slam same-sex marriage advocates?

See yourselves unmasked as the wannabe tyrrants of all morality standards and dictators of laws.

You may want to play the victim.
You are the villains.

Christian NAZIs.
Heil Jesus!

All I can reallly say to that is, World History is replete with examples of societies that came and went, in what can be considered on the World Time Scale, the blink of an eye. Have you ever really wondered why?

No, they weren't taken by Aliens. No, they weren't demolished by God. The fact is, they didn't have to be. All that was necessary, was for everyone to "do their own thing" and accept every action as "relative" in its morality. It happened to the ancient Greeks...it happened to the Romans...and it can happen to us.

Is it really such a wonder that the societies that truely endure are religious societies?



[edit on 13-8-2005 by Toelint]

Rome, or any other organized church who burned witches, acted out of their own desire, not that of Jesus Christ.
Your belief that they are the example to point at as christian..is proof of the conspiracy. The truth requires you to read a handfull of pages in the bible. You know what it will say of Christ and by Christ in there...and you choose to ignore it so you can say christians did all those things.
jake1997

I read the good book, a few times, and the thing I see most Christians do when told that many of history's crimes against humanity were carried out in His name, by self professed Christians. To distance yourself from them by exclaiming they aren't real Christians misses the point. The insanity defense for murderers is similar, of course a murderer is not sane.. of course a Christian is not going to commit these crimes. But.... if it is okay to call Muslim terrorists by that name, then it is fair game to call Timothy McVeigh a Christian terrorist, or else it is a double standard. All creeds contain bad folk doing bad stuff, even Christianity.
And it makes no difference whether or not you judge they are not Christians, cuz that is what they say they are, and so it is the only belief that one can associate them with, not Wicca, Atheism, Islam, etc.

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I think it is idealistic societies that survive.

Sometimes religion favors idealism and helps support that aim.

More often religions act as zenophobic catalysts and start vilifying anyone or anything that does not toe their line.

Amazingly often religious forces start having internal divisions based on lilipution arguments like disagreeing on which end of a breakfast egg should be openned when eating.

Strict religious societies often start attacking neighbors using religious rationales.

Strict religious societies are their own worst enemy.

I believe in secular humanist ideals for bettering humanity through education and rational discourse.
Life is short & terminal.
Why leave a legacy of destruction behind?
Do no harm,
and if at all possible try to do good works.
You may manage to exist as someone's history or fond memory.

The Universe is vastly larger than even the 26 billion lightyears we can see.
Let this iota of existence be neutral or better.
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I read the good book, a few times,

Then you must recognize these two phrases and know why they were said:
1.) "Love your neighbor"
2.) "Love your enemy"

Which thereby as a follower of the one who said these words is the answer to the following issue:

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
and the thing I see most Christians do when told that many of history's crimes against humanity were carried out in His name, by self professed Christians. To distance yourself from them by exclaiming they aren't real Christians misses the point. The insanity defense for murderers is similar, of course a murderer is not sane.. of course a Christian is not going to commit these crimes. But.... if it is okay to call Muslim terrorists by that name, then it is fair game to call Timothy McVeigh a Christian terrorist, or else it is a double standard. All creeds contain bad folk doing bad stuff, even Christianity.
And it makes no difference whether or not you judge they are not Christians, cuz that is what they say they are, and so it is the only belief that one can associate them with, not Wicca, Atheism, Islam, etc.

Timothy McVeigh's actions were not supported by what Jesus said per above. Also, I don't recall reading anywhere him ever saying that it was.

Originally posted by saint4God

1.) "Love your neighbor"
2.) "Love your enemy"

''Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer''

That shows that you trust your friends to keep them close, yet you don't trust your enemies, therefore you have to keep them closer. So how can you love your enemy if you don't even trust them?

Plus my last neighbour was like 104 and she was pretty much incapable of any kind of 'love'

Originally posted by shaunybaby
''Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer''

Sun Tzu in the appropriately named The Art of War. The reason for this though is so that you don't get blind-sided and killed. A different motivation to what Jesus was saying about loving your enemy.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
That shows that you trust your friends to keep them close, yet you don't trust your enemies, therefore you have to keep them closer. So how can you love your enemy if you don't even trust them?

It's a good question. It's clear to me Sun Tzu and Jesus are opposite in thinking.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Plus my last neighbour was like 104 and she was pretty much incapable of any kind of 'love'

But we have to love her anyway.

Just as the Qu'ran states, "Allah loveth not the aggressor.", yet some Muslims are aggressive, Jesus advised, "Turn the other cheek." yet countless times Christians have not, but instead they were the attackers.
Even the horrific slavery was explained as being God's will, and the bible used as the supportive text. Of course, the Noah/Ham thing was spun to support their inhumanity and suit their depraved actions. Even the slavery described in the OT is far preferable to that which modern Christian nations condoned, preserved, and profitted from.
And still the developing world is being exploited and abused by these same nations for profit and power..... Yehoshua Bar Joseph would not be impressed......

Is it really such a wonder that the societies that truely endure are religious societies?

Point one out please.

The only societies that endure are ones that have leaders that do care about the entire society and not a certain segment thereof.

[quote'Secular?' It's as though you are inferring that this is the opposite of religion.. it just means religion isn't relevent.. it's not atheism.

Quite the point. Secular and secularism are the two most missused words in the language today.

Secular by definition means "free thinking".

Something all Americans and definitely those that call themselves "Christian" should be.

Again, part of a mantra started by man to discredit others.

very well said. I agree that people of religion think they need to be right. Hello everyone. this is your main newbie, passengername, and boy am I happy to address everyone rightnow. I've been trying to get registered on ATS for about two months!

But anyway, for my initial offering...

if we are supposed to keep the word/work of God whole, complete and unchanged, why did God give it to men to write, edit as they saw fit (Nicea Constantine), and pass on to their children and the world? I'm sure every christian, and other people of faith, would agree that God knows that mankind are inherently sinners and liars so why would he leave it up to our ancestors and us to pass "The WORD" on. why not something like genetic memory or something?.. or maybe he did. everyone knows the difference between right and wrong unless we're taught otherwise... right?

the message being spread by the most powerful religious leaders today is that only people like "us" are good. they may give way to the idea that "even if they aren't like us, at least they worship like us" but that is only to get as many people on their side as possible for the moment. people always use the Bible to support their positions but what would happen if they didn't have the bible? it's only been in the past few hundred years that mass publication was possible. would all these christians have become evil villans instead of the God fearing do gooders that they are? is the only reason that people are good because of the King James version? I think that runaway religion wants everyone to believe that they are born evil and doomed to misery for eternity. that way they can quick sell you "salvation". I haven't seen to many prophets of late telling me to keep my money and help the poor. Maybe we all know what it takes to be good righteous people but we all get caught up in trying to pick a side.

[edit on 15-8-2005 by passengername]

Being much too lazy to read through the intervening 38 pages, I'll just address the initial post.

Originally posted by jake1997
3.) Doesnt the sheer weight of the trend in this forum show you that there is clearly some larger movement , possibly lead by a conspiracy, ...whos goal is anti-christian?

I am a proud member of the anti-Christian conspiracy.

(also a member of the anti-Muslim conspiracy, the anti-pagan conspiracy, the anti-Buhddist conspiracy, etc., or in general, the anti-faith conspiracy, aka seeking knowledge rather than simple minded answers to hard questions)

Glad to have you on-board (get it?) . Puns aside, I'm typically one who will answer questions (even if rhetorical) and offer to help however I can until I'm told to shut up and go away. Ooh! Questions! Here we go:

Originally posted by passengername
if we are supposed to keep the word/work of God whole, complete and unchanged, why did God give it to men to write,

The record of what God said known as the Bible, is a reflection of what we're supposed to already know deep down. If not, it serves as the guide in our relationship with God.

"After those days, says the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts. . . . I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." - Jeremiah 31:33, 34

"The kingdom of God comes not with observation (outward show): neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" - Luke 17:20-21

I must say though, it is the most accurate and impressive guide I ever used. God is living, talk to Him.

Originally posted by passengername
edit as they saw fit (Nicea Constantine), and pass on to their children and the world?

This is an interesting study. Things weren't "edited" as much as consistent things were put together. These "edits" are still available but from what I've read, none of these other books seem contradictory or earth-shattering.

Originally posted by passengername
I'm sure every christian, and other people of faith, would agree that God knows that mankind are inherently sinners and liars so why would he leave it up to our ancestors and us to pass "The WORD" on.

That's where His power to direct comes in. His Word perseveres, whereas perversion eventually fails the test.

Originally posted by passengername
why not something like genetic memory or something?.. or maybe he did. everyone knows the difference between right and wrong unless we're taught otherwise... right?

You're on it! . Now, the true danger is when we ignore that God-given sense of right or wrong by trying to rationalize, justify, explain, excuse, etc. it until we get what we want. We then start lying to ourselves and that's an ugly, ugly thing.

Originally posted by passengername
the message being spread by the most powerful religious leaders today is that only people like "us" are good. they may give way to the idea that "even if they aren't like us, at least they worship like us" but that is only to get as many people on their side as possible for the moment. people always use the Bible to support their positions but what would happen if they didn't have the bible?

Hm, says here in Revelation 20:11 there's this judgement. Man am I grateful there is the Book and/or people who know of Jesus because I would not have done so well on that day if I didn't. He has a way of positioning Himself, people and the Word in a way that made each available during a major spiritual crisis.

Originally posted by passengername
it's only been in the past few hundred years that mass publication was possible. would all these christians have become evil villans instead of the God fearing do gooders that they are?

Per above, depends on your heart and personal relationship with God. The Word was available back then from priests, it's just there was not a lot of actions that were consistent with that word...or so history says.

Originally posted by passengername
is the only reason that people are good because of the King James version?

Nope, Abraham through Paul did just fine without the King James Version. I prefer New International Version myself since it was translated directly from Hebrew & Greek by over 200 scholars to the same english we've been using over the last 200 years or so.

Originally posted by passengername
I think that runaway religion wants everyone to believe that they are born evil and doomed to misery for eternity.

If anyone doubts sin nature, I'd recommend raising a child and paying close attention to ages 3 through 5. To say "I'm not a sinner" is called pride, a sin that prevents us from seeing the many faults we actually have. Not a "doom and gloom" speech, just that we need to take a good hard look into the mirror and be honest with ourselves. Only then can we stop our tongue from accusing others as having many faults, rather say "I understand" and help them through it.

Originally posted by passengername
that way they can quick sell you "salvation".

You cannot sell something that's free. Also, nobody can save you except God. If someone claims they can, they're not following God's words.

Originally posted by passengername
I haven't seen to many prophets of late telling me to keep my money and help the poor.

They should be. I say keep your money and help the poor. If you give me your money, then it's now my responsibility to use it to help the poor which is an extra, unnecessary step really.

I've seen my church's quarterly budget and agree their collection goes to help needy people so it's one avenue I choose to give. Granted I need to give more and will work to do so.

Originally posted by passengername
Maybe we all know what it takes to be good righteous people but we all get caught up in trying to pick a side.

Deep down we do know what is right. The difference between accepting God and Jesus as His son, we are saved from that potentially harsh judgement in the end. Why risk what can be guarenteed? I think the proper motivation to come to God is not fear of Hell, rather a love for Him all that comes from Him is good.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

[edit on 16-8-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 16-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by spamandham
I am a proud member of the anti-Christian conspiracy.

Not that I doubt it or anything, but who have you been conspiring with?

Originally posted by spamandham
(also a member of the anti-Muslim conspiracy, the anti-pagan conspiracy, the anti-Buhddist conspiracy, etc., or in general, the anti-faith conspiracy, aka seeking knowledge rather than simple minded answers to hard questions)

Heh, simple minded...

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passengername,
interesting idea about using genetic memory,
but God doesn't believe in Genetics or DNA.
Only magic.
*Being somewhat facetious, but only somewhat*

It would be a more effective way of passing on an idea in a pure and relatively unaltered form.
Im sure we have many tendencies of thought that are much more genetic than we realize.

I am gay and believe it or not i know what it is to have the majority of people treat who you really are as less than human. But i realize it is probably a logical genetic tendency to discard those with a lower probability of reproducing. I can only hope that cerebral logic and the fact that many homosexuals have contributed significantly to human culture and technology will convince a sufficient enough number of people that i am worthy of equal respect. If not I keep a gun.

Maybe there is less of a conspiracy against [extreme] Christians than it is in fact somewhat easy to pidgeon hole you?
Because your faith is SO externally demonstrative it makes it sort of collective and therefore sort of monocultural.
Could it be it is even a little industrial?

Personally I think of spiritual growth as a very personal thing. A private road of mystery and unknowns. It is your private dialogue with the Universe. Sometimes you share parts of it with other people, but it is something you have to ultimately do for yourself.

Sometimes i think the Universe has a slightly harsh, dark sense of humor. It likes to play with people, especially with their minds. While it may yank you around, you have to find your own center and balance. In the end it gets you, but in the meantime you can have fun till your last day. That's the game.
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
I am a proud member of the anti-Christian conspiracy.

Not that I doubt it or anything, but who have you been conspiring with?

Thomas Paine, Bertrand Russell, Carl Sagan, Freidrich Nietzsche, Mark Twain, Gene Roddenberry and Penn and Teller.