Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
So your saying GOD let Satan continue to hang around so we would have a choice between good and evil?

Yes. By disobeying God, we showed a lack of love. Now, we have to come to Him and apologize if we want that relationship back.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
GOD did this so he could in a roundabout way kill his own children-a part of him?

To all disciplines, there are rewards and consequences. In discipline, the administrator wants the recipient to learn, not collapse. In the end though, if the recipient absolutely refuses to grow, then you have to let go. This is part of free will.

To all disciplines, there are rewards and consequences. In discipline, the administrator wants the recipient to learn, not collapse. In the end though, if the recipient absolutely refuses to grow, then you have to let go. This is part of free will.

Avoid stagnation, and grow. I agree with your interpretation. I like the free will part.

Originally posted by jake1997
Why are so many people soo anti christian?

i could have sworn christianity claims they have over 1 billion people belonging to their faith...

some 70 or 80 percent of people living in england claimed they were christian. however, only 30 percent go to church every week. so you may claim 1 billion people belong to christianity, yet it's probably closure to half that or one third of that, who actually go to church and practice their faith.

however, of non-religious people, athiest and so on, there are not many. perhaps 10 or 15 percent of the population. this small percentage you say are the 'so many who are anti-christian'. i am anti-christian. i can't stand this movement or even any organized religious group or cult. i want truth. not some pretend spiritual shadow hanging over my life, dictating what i do. i've read parts of the bible, learnt about the christian view and the atheist point of view. it was only after looking at the bible that i saw what it was in the real light...bulls**t. if i had not of looked at the bible then i wouldn't have come to this conclusion and i did not start to look at the bible to prove it wrong or find mistakes...that was just what came out of the book.

what makes christianity so special, or islamic beliefs so special compared to the ancient greek gods or the egyptian gods. those religions faded through time because people had new beliefs...i.e christianity. these will in time fade as well. if you believe the earth and universe have been here for billions of years then you can see what insufficient time scale religion has been around for.

2000 years of christianity and a rough guide book does not garentee it's eternity. evolution will always be a belief, as it happened millions and billions of years ago and is still an on going process. science is eternal. religion is a fad, it will pass.

Yes in the end of days atheists will be small in numbers, and bunches of agressive theists will chase them and fight each other, too - that is more probably to happen, like before from the first religion to this day.
But topic was anti-christian conspiracy, but I am not sure if it is only against christian or against monotheism generaly.
I wonder who wants religion out, because it is very nice way to keep people in ignorance.

there's so many religions, maybe 6 or 7 main ones. all of them can't be right. christian heaven and hell doesn't fit in with a reincarnation belief etc. if only one is right and the true religion, lets say for example 'christianity' then the billions of other people in other religions when they say they have a relationship with god, their prayers are answered, god helps them through their day etc...is it lies? misguidence? insanity?... what is it...because surely someone is lying if there is only one real religion. in this case where a religion would be disproved because only one can be true, you can say its because of human nature and their 'need' for god, hence 'the god gene'. they have such a need for god that they make themselves believe that there is one. from all these religions, they all can't have a relationship with god, or have guidence from god. not an actual gene, but basically when someone is born depending on their environmental surroundings will be more likely or less likely to become religious.

people of higher IQs usually are not religious. you think einstein would have come up with half of his theories if he was in church on sundays, praying all the time, waiting around for god to help him through the day...hell no. he wore the exact same thing everyday, shoes, socks, pants, shirt so he didn't have to 'think' about what to wear. i'm a 130, my christian friend is a 117...it's not an exact science but generally if you're religious your IQ is probably lower.

the majority of religious people are taught about their religions from a young and influencial age. When you're 5 or 6, you think there are monsters hiding in your closet and under your bed. you see toy story and at night or when your out of your room you think your toys probably are doing the same. at this age anything that goes in to your head is likely to stay forever, or for a very long time. this is why when they hear bible stories, such as noah's ark, jesus and his cute miracles, it all seems true because they are so young and they don't know anything else.

my primary school was kind of religious, we'd say a prayer before lunch and one at the end of the day. all our christmas plays would be in the church and we'd always be singing hyms in our assemblys. if my home was also this christian i probably would have been f**ked. no opinions of your own, told what to believe...enforced beliefs down to you from your parents, wow what fun. until a certain age you don't really have a choice, heck if a 12 year old doesn't have the choice to go out because he's grounded, he's not going to have much choice on his religion either. it's only until 16, 17 or 18 that you're able to question your beliefs. however, by then religion can be so well implanted that it's 2nd nature.

Predjudice. I think that's it. I didn't see it before, but I see it now. Thanks shaunybaby for giving support to the idea that there is in fact, an Anti-Christian conspiracy. Hasty generalizations and unsubstantiated accusations do not make anything true. In fact, when we judge others in this way, the only thing that can result is living in a world of misconception, lack of understanding and being simply wrong. Remember shauny, every Christian was at one time a non-Christian. One has to make the concious decision to accept God and Jesus as his son. Some of us have to go through a Hell on earth before they finally find the truth. I'm sure that means nothing to you, but I hope and pray that you don't have to go through the same thing before you reach it.

Sometimes friend the only way to "slap" people awake is for them to go through their form of "hell" before truly asking for help and receiving it.

I guess I blow her statistical basis of IQ level all to hell-135. It ain't the smarts is what one does with it.

The problem with religions is that sweetness and light attracts flies. No conspiracy here, simply an observation of what happens historically. People who never really repent end up running religions, thinking rationally and with rationalizations. The essence of much religion is positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement for your enemies. Eg. "They are going to hell." Some of the problem with Christianity is that hell myth. People who have wiped their slate clean with Jesus, still have anxiety at the next sermon. If their faith is never secure, then the coffers keep piling. Sounds familiar?

So the problem is not a conspiracy necessarily, but the fact that by division, and competing views people flee from public Christianity. Some of the fortunate ones actually find Jesus, but miles away camping out alone. Where was Jesus anyway in those mountains? Communing with his father in Heaven. Get it?

are you afraid of this anti-christian conspiracy...that perhaps we non-believers might start coming round door to door talking about evolution, and other ungodly things.

i'm in no way predjudice with my views or opinions. i know what your side has to offer, but i can't accept it because i see the bible for something else than how you see it...i see it for a fraud, and just because it's a different opinion to yours doesn't mean i'm predjudice. if anything it shows you to be ignorant because you think i haven't looked at both sides of the arguement, you're just assuming and jumping to conclusions.

ive stated before my early school days were very christian. not strict, but they always tried to teach us about god, the bible, jesus and so on. our parting gift when i left my primary school...we each got a bible. we would have to say a prayer before lunch and at the end of the day. christmas plays in church and singing godly hyms all the time. at age 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 it is hard personally to say oh this seems wrong etc. i guess if your parents felts strongly about it they could pull you out etc...but mine probably thought it's not doing him any harm. however, that's how i have always felt, christian views and religious views are always forced upon us...you can't deny that. how is a JW coming to your door not forcing beliefs. how is making children sing hyms about god and jesus, making them say prayers not forcing beliefs.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
are you afraid of this anti-christian conspiracy...that perhaps we non-believers might start coming round door to door talking about evolution, and other ungodly things.

They don't have to go to door to door, they were already waiting for me at the university, work, etc. I can't have these discussions at these places because "God" is taboo, but I can have people encourage me to be 'into' evolution, hedonism, and non-holy holidays? This doesn't makes sense. Hence, ATS is among the rare places outside home and church a Christian can talk without getting slapped for it. Well, I take that back. I still get slapped for it, but at least without facing financial, educational, and other consequences.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i'm in no way predjudice with my views or opinions.

Would you like me to point out specifics in your statements? The whole 'Christains are spoon fed children' means you know very few real Christians (if any) to a great extent, not "most" as you claim.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i know what your side has to offer, but i can't accept it because i see the bible for something else than how you see it...i see it for a fraud, and just because it's a different opinion to yours doesn't mean i'm predjudice.

I don't have a problem with you judging the Book without substantiation, because the Book stands on its own. Anyone can read it and choose to accept it or not. My issue is with you judging a group of people you don't know.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
if anything it shows you to be ignorant because you think i haven't looked at both sides of the arguement, you're just assuming and jumping to conclusions.

I WAS on the other side of the argument. Were you ever on mine in that you accepted God, Jesus Christ as his son and followed His teachings?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
ive stated before my early school days were very christian. not strict, but they always tried to teach us about god, the bible, jesus and so on. our parting gift when i left my primary school...we each got a bible. we would have to say a prayer before lunch and at the end of the day. christmas plays in church and singing godly hyms all the time. at age 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 it is hard personally to say oh this seems wrong etc. i guess if your parents felts strongly about it they could pull you out etc...but mine probably thought it's not doing him any harm. however, that's how i have always felt, christian views and religious views are always forced upon us...you can't deny that. how is a JW coming to your door not forcing beliefs. how is making children sing hyms about god and jesus, making them say prayers not forcing beliefs.

I agree that forcing a belief is wrong, but generalizing "most christians" this way is incredibly off-target.


[edit on 16-6-2005 by saint4God]

OK, I know he really does not need me to help but I've gotta say that when you paint all Christians with the same broad brush, well...that's just wrong!

If you read this board long enough you'll find very reasonable. logical, open-minded people of every religious and non-religious bent. You'll find a lot of jerks and trolls, too. You'll also find some who are incredibly close-minded but genuinely nice.

I don't want to start making lists here but, I do want to say that I think it's just wrong to try to paint Saint4God with any of those tired, old stereotypes. We don't agree on quite a few points but we agree upon as much as we disagree and he/she is a genuinely logical, thoughtful, and pleasant person with whom one can have a serious and respectful discussion.

Treat each person as an individual - that's all I'm saying.

[edit on 16-6-2005 by Al Davison]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
are you afraid of this anti-christian conspiracy...that perhaps we non-believers might start coming round door to door talking about evolution, and other ungodly things.

As someone else said, I'll also say that non-believers already can go door to door and spread anti-christian doctrine, through TV and Movies and music and schools.

lord of the rings, star wars, the matrix all have hints of religion/faith, no named ones, yet certain beliefs in some sort of power, always fights between good and evil, hence god and satan. movies anti christian...nope.

tv programs, on channel 4 there was a program about the da vinci code and the book, it pretty much went through the facts and debunked it as nothing but fiction. on sky digital there are two god channels where there's just people preaching all day etc. tv anti christian?...nope.

ive never heard any anti christian songs, not as in 'anti' something as green day's album is anti bush. i was made to sing hyms at school, i didnt have to sing along but i'd still have to stand there and listen. music anti christian?...nope.

at my primary school we said a prayer before lunch and once at the end of the day. we had christmas plays at church. we had to sing hyms. we got given a bible when we left. schools anti christian...nope.

you're right, non-believers could go door to door and try to persuade religious people are wrong...but they don't, yet some religions feel the need to. you spoke of movies, tv, schools and music all being anti christian, yeah there might be some exceptions, however on the whole they are 'pro' if not 'neutral'.

Stop, wait, non-believers if you want to say non-theists, well here it is, what we have on TVs and schools is not non-believers vs the christianity, but another idolatry, idolatry of money, enjoying in material goods, this is not any solid system in fact, it is not atheism, even not would like to convert intelectuals in to atheists. people with higher IQ is only looking through the facade in agenda and reveal its evil plans, to enslave and control. And there isn't for no reason religious elite hate them and say look it is devil, whoever thinks and uses brain is a devil, do not think believe, wow! Now I got it I got to have faith and do not think and not be a sceptic, I will go to hell if reject GOD, god is almighty all all all I never will be, and I must obey even if there is not a single proof for that. On the contrary people are born free and enslavement must be really quick and rigid. People must not think because using your brain it is enemy of the organized crime, pardon, religion.
But there is no real difference because all we have is another bait, bait of money can buy things and buying makes you happy.

But it is truth that christian cults go door to door and annoy people and agressively abuse privacy. School, and especially university isn't place where they go to your door you go there if you want, and you can choose your school.

I am very sorry but it is the way it got to be more knowledge less religion in this way, wake up all your religion is pagan cult. It is deep to the neck paganism mumbo jumbo with one cherry on the top.

A lot of demons with different names, fighting each other isn't the right thing anyway. But christianity shown us what it can do and islam too, thousands of years and millions of victims, all believers being the victims and still fight for them church.
You know what there is ONE god for every one, and mine is not yours god, they are the same sort, but different.

Originally posted by MankoW
and I must obey even if there is not a single proof for that

if that's your ideology or philosophy of life then you're a fool. you're an idiot. i could throw in more words but i fear i would probably get another warning for aiming directly at forum members. this just proves what ive been saying all along about religion and christianity, with your philosophy on life...'even if there's no proof ill still obey god''. that's just sad. that's plain and simple ignorance. i wont lump all the christians in a boat and say that all their beliefs are like this, but most probably are...ofcourse im just assuming. however, when you have people like this asociated with your religion, then this person is an ambassador for your religion. therefore when i hear a statement like 'i must obey even if there's no proof for the existance of god', that is a statement for christianity and so on.

Sir, I do not understand!
Did you attacking my statement that I must obey god, or it is not true, well I think it is true, non-believers are not welcome in the church, maybe in Church of the non-believers.
That sentence was just showing in very ironic way what "should I do".

i was attacking the fact that you said you would 'obey god even if there is no proof'... so no matter how much proof there is for something else...you'll still believe in god because you'll ignore that proof as you ignore the fact that there is no proof for god etc etc...

Originally posted by Al Davison
OK, I know he really does not need me to help but I've gotta say that when you paint all Christians with the same broad brush, well...that's just wrong!

If you read this board long enough you'll find very reasonable. logical, open-minded people of every religious and non-religious bent. You'll find a lot of jerks and trolls, too. You'll also find some who are incredibly close-minded but genuinely nice.

I don't want to start making lists here but, I do want to say that I think it's just wrong to try to paint Saint4God with any of those tired, old stereotypes. We don't agree on quite a few points but we agree upon as much as we disagree and he/she is a genuinely logical, thoughtful, and pleasant person with whom one can have a serious and respectful discussion.

Treat each person as an individual - that's all I'm saying.

[edit on 16-6-2005 by Al Davison]

Thank you Al. I am feeling the love.