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The Anti-Christian conspiracy

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posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 12:13 PM
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I know I have the right interpretation on those things because I have not interpreted it. I took God at face value.... no interpretation needed.

If He didnt mean what He said, then why didnt he say what He meant?


That is perfectly fine IF that is what GOD said. That is what no one knows. The Bible was penned by man. The Bible has been changed and interpreted by man.

See GOD told me something one eve. However, to be able to pen it is a virtual impossibility that even I have to admit. It is very difficult to pen to another love, and the serenity if one has not experienced what the other writes.

SAINT

I know of your experience. My question is did your "visitors" specifically mention Christ or is that where you went to study for it was the Christian Religion that you were most familiar with? I think we may need a couple ofU2Us



[edit on 3-6-2005 by madmanacrosswater]




posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
SAINT

I know of your experience. My question is did your "visitors" specifically mention Christ or is that where you went to study for it was the Christian Religion that you were most familiar with? I think we may need a couple ofU2Us


U2U's for details would be certainly welcomed. I believe your motive is to share information, not drive me into the ground or the 'red-tape' effect.

The simple answer to your question, is when I accepted the advice I was given and applied it, the change happened. It's hard to describe without a long story (but I can send you the Word .doc), but I could not read the Bible before. My eyes would itch and burn, I'd get very angry and often would throw the Book. Part of the change was a willingness to accept God and all He had to present as truth. After the change, not only could I understand it, but it was very cooling, calming and I wrote 3 pages on the Beattitudes (which is only a few lines long).

What change? Well, that's why I have that link down there in my signature line.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 03:33 PM
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Originally posted by madmanacrosswater

I know I have the right interpretation on those things because I have not interpreted it. I took God at face value.... no interpretation needed.

If He didnt mean what He said, then why didnt he say what He meant?


That is perfectly fine IF that is what GOD said. That is what no one knows. The Bible was penned by man. The Bible has been changed and interpreted by man. ~snip~


There is the point that everything hinges on. EVERYTHING.

I can believe what you said, or I can believe that

GOD, by definition, is all powerful and able to make sure His word made into english so that I could believe.

You see...if you are right...the religion is nothing. If Gods word is not perfect, then its fake. Phoney. False. A lie. And on top of that...God is then made out to be a liar because He wasnt able to protect His word.

SOoo... believing in God directly means... believing in His Word.
It always did.
and I always will.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 03:46 PM
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You see...if you are right...the religion is nothing. If Gods word is not perfect, then its fake. Phoney. False. A lie. And on top of that...God is then made out to be a liar because He wasnt able to protect His word.

SOoo... believing in God directly means... believing in His Word.
It always did.
and I always will.


Perhaps that is where we differ about GOD. I never and will never say that GOD's word is not perfect. However, GOD gave and continues to give man "space" to operate. It is this "space" that is the "gray area" we call life. GOD is always able to protect his word. He can end this whole get together instantaneously if he wishes.

However, one thing I agree on. "Religion" is nothing. It is one's faith, and heart that counts. The idea of a GOD that would send a portion of his/her ownself to haides is beyond me. Would you send a portion of yourself there? I wouldn't send my children. Would you?

Jesus spelled it out perfectly in Matthew for those that wish to open their heart, and not rely on someone else to tell them what he meant. I follow his parables well. However, my interpretation of many makes me a heretic according to others. Far from it. Just a man-part of GOD.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 07:42 PM
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I dont believe Jesus went there. (for the record).

The sinless man suffered death for the people of sin. It was the death on the cross that paid the price.

Jesus did not goto the place he spoke of in the parable of the rich man.
He DID however goto abrahams bosom and preach to the spirits there.

Using the example of Israel coming out of Egypt...spending 40 years in the desert and then entering the promised land...

and Jesus fasting 40 days and then declaring the kingdom of God is at hand... I suspect that when Jesus went up into heaven... that is when he lead abraham and company up with him



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 07:54 PM
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Originally posted by madmanacrosswater

That is perfectly fine IF that is what GOD said. That is what no one knows. The Bible was penned by man. The Bible has been changed and interpreted by man.


[edit on 3-6-2005 by madmanacrosswater]


You can confirm the Bible by looking at christians, not the ones who think they are, but the ones who really are. The ones who read the Bible, and see what it says and then apply it to their lives. That's where you can see the validity of the Bible.

I say this to all other christians who really are christians and want to be changed to be like Christ. In everything you do and say remember, YOU MAY BE THE ONLY BIBLE SOME PEOPLE READ.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater

That is perfectly fine IF that is what GOD said. That is what no one knows. The Bible was penned by man. The Bible has been changed and interpreted by man.


[edit on 3-6-2005 by madmanacrosswater]


You can confirm the Bible by looking at christians, not the ones who think they are, but the ones who really are. The ones who read the Bible, and see what it says and then apply it to their lives. That's where you can see the validity of the Bible.

I say this to all other christians who really are christians and want to be changed to be like Christ. In everything you do and say remember, YOU MAY BE THE ONLY BIBLE SOME PEOPLE READ.

I once read that there are 4000 different variations of Christianity, and I don't doubt it. If the person defines the book, then for every 500 or so self proclaimed Christians I have met, I have met one that fit the definition that I have of what a Christian who emulates Jesus would be like. That would add up to maybe a dozen people in my whole life. I have met as many adherents of other faiths that live more in line with the messages and example of Jesus as I have Christians, maybe even more.
Modesty, respect, acceptance, and wisdom are the things that I relate to Jesus. And also the things that I seem to so very rarely see exhibitted by Christians.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 08:17 PM
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and now you know why Jesus said this

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 08:26 PM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
If the person defines the book, then for every 500 or so self proclaimed Christians I have met, I have met one that fit the definition that I have of what a Christian who emulates Jesus would be like.


Last night I went to my one of my daughters high school choir and band concert. The choir director attends my church. One of the songs he had the choir sing was, "Oh, What a night", the four seasons song. Not exactly a Biblical theme to that song. That is my point you have to look at the christians who are changing from what they once were. The ones who are applying what they learn 24/7 not just on Sunday.

All races types and religions of people do some good things. But remember that everyone has a sin debt already accumulated and that has to be wiped of the books.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 08:32 PM
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All races types and religions of people do some good things. But remember that everyone has a sin debt already accumulated and that has to be wiped of the books.
dbrandt

I would only differ in outlook in these two ways, first I see only one race, the human race, and second, I would not have Jesus take on my sin debt. I feel that if it is not possible for me to make it right, that is too bad for me, but I would refuse to pawn the responsibility for my wrongs onto another person, especially him.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
[ But remember that everyone has a sin debt already accumulated and that has to be wiped of the books.
Christians like to say that Jesus for died for our sins. what then does this exactly mean if everyone has a sin debt?

He died for our sins to continue?

He died for our sins to cease?

He died because we sinned and still do?

He died to abolish sin, therefore we no longer sin, and as such have no need to worry about why he died?

You don't know, but saying he died for our sins sounds good?




[edit on 6/3/05 by SomewhereinBetween]



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Christians like to say that Jesus for died for our sins. what then does this exactly mean if everyone has a sin debt?

He died for our sins to continue?

He died for our sins to cease?

He died because we sinned and still do?

He died to abolish sin, therefore we no longer sin, and as such have no need to worry about why he died?
[edit on 6/3/05 by SomewhereinBetween]



God created Adam and Eve in His image. Then Adam and Eve had the "disease" of sin come from the outside into them. Then the Bible tells us that the descendants of Adam were made in Adam's image(infected with sin)From then on everyone born has been born with the sin disease a part of them. Even though the tiniest baby doesn't sin, it is still in them, and given enough time it will manifest itself.

Adam and Eve were then driven out of the garden so that they would not eat of the tree of life and live forever in their sin nature. Spiritual death instantly came upon Adam and Eve. Then for Adam and Eve eventually physical death came hundreds of years later.

Jesus death and resurrection accomplished many things for christians. Take each individual person, God knows how many sins every single person will committ in their lifetime(and I mean each individual sin). Christ's sacrifice was complete. Each one was transferred to Him and He felt them as if He had done them. So He paid for that.

Can a person still sin after salvation, yes, why? because we are still living in the world and in a sin infected body and still have an enemy hounding us. Those sins are covered by the blood of Christ. God's spirit convicts us of them and we should acknowledge them when they happen and seek forgiveness as we are aware of them so that we learn what is a sin and we become changed. Jesus died for sins committed after salvation.

But because God now lives in us through the Holy Spirit and our spirit is reborn we have God's strength and we can say no to sin. We don't have to sin. That is another reason Christ died for us.

Christ also conquered actual physical and spiritual death so that when we die we don't have to be seperated from God, and eventually death will someday be thrown into the Lake of Fire and will never plague mankind again. Jesus died for that.


Yes, someday we won't sin, so He did die for sin to cease. He died so the sin infection will someday no longer exist.

He has already done this for everyone who has ever or will ever live, it's a free gift avilable to anyone. But God has created us with free will, so we could love. Without the power to choose(free will) there is no ability to love. So while Jesus has already paid for every sin we must choose to accept the gift and offer of salvation. He won't force it on anyone. If you don't want to accept it then you can use your free will and say no.

But by accepting Christ you are freed from the power of sin, and to truly love, and set free to become everything God intended you to be and everything you would want to be if you knew what He knew. Sin is kinda like being in prison, you are restricted to a certain area and can only do certain things. When you accept Christ you are then free, you are not restricted to a certain area(someday you will see and travel to all the universe God has made) and you are free to grow and do things that you can't do when restricted by sin. This happens now and in eternity we will be like Christ. Jesus could travel at the speed of thought and disappear and reappear without walking through doors. We will get to do that!! because of what He did.

Remember the lie satan tricked Adam and Eve with that they would "be God", that brought a huge problem upon mankind. God took that lie and trick of satan and in a sense satan was fooled. God took that, that satan thought would eternally condemn mankind and God showed a side of Himself that satan didn't even know about God. satan didn't know that the God of the universe would leave the splendor of heaven and His glory, and limit Himself to a human body, and live as we did and experience what we experience and feel what we feel. Then to top it all off this God who had all the power to simply say a word and create the universe would humble himself and let us beat Him, and mock Him, and humiliate Him, and let Himself be nailed to a tree He made, and then to receive all sin upon Himself. Someone who never ever sinned, at a precise moment in time, had all the sins of every person set upon His body, soul and spirit and paid for them. When Jesus was in the garden and was praying that this cup could pass from Him He wasn't asking to skip the cross, He knew He came to die for us. What He was asking was if there was some other way that He would not have to undergo the seperation from God.

This is what I mean by that. There is one God in three distinct persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not three Gods, but one God all interconnected. When Jesus had sin placed upon Himself on the cross and cried out, "My God(God the Father), My God(The Holy Spirit) why have you forsaken me." At that moment Jesus who is God, was seperated from God, for our sake and so we could be free. God never dwelt in Adam and Eve(through the Holy Spirit.) Even before sin entered there was a distance between God and them. But because of what Jesus did christians have God, the Holy Spirit, living in them. There is no distance any longer, God is with us and living in us. We are not God or a God, but we belong to Him. satan had no idea God would go to this extreme to redeem His creation.

That's what Jesus did.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 10:44 PM
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As long as Animists, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Moslems, Shamanists, Sikhs, Wiccans, and Zarathustrans are allowed to come to heaven too, I am with ya. There are many rooms right? All good souls belong together. I'd even forgive ol' Satan, and give him a second chance.
Maybe he'd see the light, and return to the good side of the force.
Of course, if only Christians are allowed to come, I must sadly decline, and stay behind with other non Christians like Rabbi Hillel, M. Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, the Aga Khan, etc.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I would only differ in outlook in these two ways, first I see only one race, the human race, and second, I would not have Jesus take on my sin debt. I feel that if it is not possible for me to make it right, that is too bad for me, but I would refuse to pawn the responsibility for my wrongs onto another person, especially him.


All people of whatever skin color and sex are who Jesus came for and we are all certainly the same, none better and none worse.

I hope this comes across as I intend. Jesus came to die for your sin and to remove it from you. By denying this you are denying the very reason He came. Before the universe was even created He offered to do this, because He knew that it was the only way to accomplish the eternal goal of God. He wasn't a pawn in a game. He volunteered to die and it was His idea.

If you had a cancerous tumor growing in you, that was making you sick and shortening your life, and the doctor said with surgery I can remove it and it will no longer affect you and destroy you, would you say, "No thanks I'll keep it". Of course not. Jesus is saying the same thing, I can remove the sin problem and you will have eternal life(life everlasting, in quality and quantity).

Please, please, please think through what Jesus has done, and let Him operate on you.



posted on Jun, 3 2005 @ 10:53 PM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
As long as Animists, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Moslems, Shamanists, Sikhs, Wiccans, and Zarathustrans are allowed to come to heaven too, I am with ya. There are many rooms right? All good souls belong together. I'd even forgive ol' Satan, and give him a second chance.
Maybe he'd see the light, and return to the good side of the force.
Of course, if only Christians are allowed to come, I must sadly decline, and stay behind with other non Christians like Rabbi Hillel, M. Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, the Aga Khan, etc.


Before I was saved I wasn't a christian. With Christ comes a name change. It would be my guess that Hitler is in hell right now. The Bible tells us that the people in hell know they deserve to be there and they don't ask to be removed from it. But amazingly they do ask one thing. That want others they know to escape it and not come there. So in hell right now Hitler knows Jesus is Lord, and he also feels the torment of hell, and this knowledge manifests itself to the point that he doesn't want others there.



posted on Jun, 5 2005 @ 10:04 PM
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Okay, let us assume for a brief moment that your position is correct. How honest will you be in responding?


Originally posted by dbrandtGod created Adam and Eve in His image.
What exactly is meant by this? What was his image, is it that we look as he does?


Then Adam and Eve had the "disease" of sin come from the outside into them. Then the Bible tells us that the descendants of Adam were made in Adam's image(infected with sin)From then on everyone born has been born with the sin disease a part of them. Even though the tiniest baby doesn't sin, it is still in them, and given enough time it will manifest itself.
1) Disease is contracted is it not? Therefore, why are they to blame for catching something passed on to them?
2)Who gave them this disease?
3)Did they know they would be contracting a disease, did they even know what disease meant?
4)Where in scripture does it state that Adam and Eve did in fact have a disease?


None of that jives with:
1) Baptisim for the cleansing of sin;
2) Jesus died “for our sins.” And
3) We can only be saved by Jesus.

Please be definitive as to what this means, because it cannot be that Jesus died for our sins yet we are still required to be baptized so that we are cleansed of sin. In fact, I put it bluntly to you that this is abject nonsense, since if Jesus died for our sins 1,966 years ago, no one since that day should be concerned with sin, and no one should be preaching to any other that they need to find Jesus to be saved.


Adam and Eve were then driven out of the garden so that they would not eat of the tree of life and live forever in their sin nature. Spiritual death instantly came upon Adam and Eve. Then for Adam and Eve eventually physical death came hundreds of years later.
The Bible says nothing about living forever in “sin nature” this is fabrication on your part. You are twisting the words to suit your own needs. Further, there is nothing that speaks to spiritual death, since, there was nothing that spoke prior to the Garden of Eden of their spiritual life. Once more, you twist the words to suit your agenda.


Jesus death and resurrection accomplished many things for christians.
There is no proof of this to date.


Take each individual person, God knows how many sins every single person will committ in their lifetime(and I mean each individual sin). Christ's sacrifice was complete. Each one was transferred to Him and He felt them as if He had done them. So He paid for that.
This is where your entire philosophy proves to be absolute bullpuckey! If God knows every sin everyone of us will commit, then he also knows who will pass his tests and who will not by the time we take our first breaths. He is responsible for creating us, and therefore were he to know this, it cannot be claimed we are given freewill when in fact before we are each capable of even comprehending God, he has determined how many sins we each will commit. This notion is ridiculous for it suggests that God despite his knowing who will and will not meet his criteria decided anyway to create those individuals and demand they change that which he already knows they cannot change. Therefore, no amount of Jesus persons can change that which God already knows will happen.


Can a person still sin after salvation, yes, why? because we are still living in the world and in a sin infected body and still have an enemy hounding us. Those sins are covered by the blood of Christ.
Once more, if Jesus died for our sins, then they are no more, no matter how hard you try to claim we are still sinners, you cannot reconcile with each of these the two philosophies you espouse.


But because God now lives in us through the Holy Spirit and our spirit is reborn we have God's strength and we can say no to sin. We don't have to sin. That is another reason Christ died for us.
So you are saying that prior to Jesus, God did not live with man in a holy way. In essence then, every single person prior to 27BCE lived and died without God’s presence within them including the likes of Adam, Noah, Abraham and all of the patriarchs? Do you not see the absurdity in that point of view?


Christ also conquered actual physical and spiritual death so that when we die we don't have to be seperated from God, and eventually death will someday be thrown into the Lake of Fire and will never plague mankind again. Jesus died for that.
There is no proof of this, for if he were to do so, he did not need to move that stone, just walk right through same.


Yes, someday we won't sin, so He did die for sin to cease. He died so the sin infection will someday no longer exist.
See above.

And in case you lose sight of your statements which I question above, you provide your very own contradiction here

He has already done this for everyone who has ever, or will ever live, it's a free gift available to anyone. But God has created us with free will, so we could love. Without the power to choose(free will) there is no ability to love. So while Jesus has already paid for every sin we must choose to accept the gift and offer of salvation. He won't force it on anyone. If you don't want to accept it then you can use your free will and say no.



But by accepting Christ you are freed from the power of sin, and to truly love, …
Really? Are you saying then that you and every Christian are sin free and feel nothing but love? Your answer in support of this claim should only be yes, but it is not is it? Because once again, if a believer in Jesus is freed from sin, then the need for baptism is not necessary and anything you say or do after you claim to accept Jesus no matter how heinous, is not by your definition, a sin.


Remember the lie satan tricked Adam and Eve with that they would "be God", that brought a huge problem upon mankind. God took that lie and trick of satan and in a sense satan was fooled.
There is no mention that Satan tricked Eve at all, this is purely Christian speculative philosophy, is that not so?


God took that, that satan thought would eternally condemn mankind and God showed a side of Himself that satan didn't even know about God.
If God is the creator and sole judge, then how is it possible that some sod named Satan has the capability to do any condemning?


satan didn't know that the God of the universe would leave the splendor of heaven and His glory, and limit Himself to a human body, and live as we did and experience what we experience and feel what we feel.
So satan then does not have the ability to read? Obviously you feel he is less intelligent and educated than you who can state you know the above, yet he cannot. So why on God’s green earth do we need to worry about some idiot demon who can’t even read?


Then to top it all off this God who had all the power to simply say a word and create the universe would humble himself and let us beat Him, and mock Him, and humiliate Him, and let Himself be nailed to a tree He made, and then to receive all sin upon Himself.
Oh he is a glutton for punishment then? Perhaps he prefers to lead others on before he puts the boots to them.


Someone who never ever sinned,…
As with every word you wrote, you are wrong with this as well. Since according to you

Then the Bible tells us that the descendants of Adam were made in Adam's image(infected with sin) From then on everyone born has been born with the sin disease a part of them.
That would include your master born of a human woman who by your charge, was born of sin inherited from Adam. He could not have been sinless therefore.


When Jesus was in the garden and was praying that this cup could pass from Him He wasn't asking to skip the cross,…
More tripe isn’t it? His disciples were all asleep, he awoke them, do tell, who was hiding in the bushes recording the words he spoke?


He knew He came to die for us. What He was asking was if there was some other way that He would not have to undergo the seperation from God.
He knew he was going to die, and he knew he was not the messiah. Now why on earth would he be asking to not be separated from God when it is Christian teaching he is God?


There is one God in three distinct persons.
Yes there is in your convoluted little world of denial, culpability and brainwashing, and the names are Atum; Ra and Aten. That is what you revere, no matter how hard you try to deny that.


That's what Jesus did.
No, what he did was rob from and slaughter his own people.


[edit on 6/5/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

[edit on 6/5/05 by SomewhereinBetween]



posted on Jun, 5 2005 @ 10:46 PM
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Sin and salvation is the bread and butter of the Church, without sin can not be salvation without the need for salvation can not be dependancy of the church.

So it doesn't matter how many times a Jesus has to die "for our sin" the church will never admit that in his pursue of having the Christ as the savior for all our sins, forgot that once he died for them we are all save.

So the mistake was done the deed performed and the confusion about for who and why Jesus died after all has been played over and over.

No matter if Jesus comes over and over to die for our sins we are still dependant on the church for salvation.

Yes is indeed an anti-christian conspiracy not against the Church but the church againts its saviour.

pity.



posted on Jun, 5 2005 @ 11:10 PM
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Yes is indeed an anti-christian conspiracy not against the Church but the church againts its saviour.

pity.


That is the way I always read it. Jesus Christ has already died on the cross for our sins up to that point and our sins from there on out.

Many churches speak of the committment to Christ yet he alread committed for us. However, these days I rarely hear Jesus spoken about within the Church. I hear a lot of FEAR spoken, but rarely do I hear of the love of Christ.



posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 04:25 AM
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Thats odd.

I dont hear any fear at all. Its all a 'love love' gospel that teaches no one is wrong and everyone is right and never mentions concequences of anything.
Completely unbalanced.



posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
There is the point that everything hinges on. EVERYTHING.

I can believe what you said, or I can believe that
GOD, by definition, is all powerful and able to make sure His word made into english so that I could believe.

You see...if you are right...the religion is nothing. If Gods word is not perfect, then its fake. Phoney. False. A lie. And on top of that...God is then made out to be a liar because He wasnt able to protect His word.

SOoo... believing in God directly means... believing in His Word.
It always did.
and I always will.


God's word is absolute. Eternal. It cannot possibly be false. Even the Bible says that. It transcends language, culture and race. God's laws- physics, justice, mercy, truth- were created at the beginning, and have not changed since.

However, there is nothing about the Bible, or even individual Gospels being absolute/eternal/true. In the beginning was the word. Not the Bible, not the gospels, not the OT, the WORD. The Bible does not necessarily equal God's word. You cannot possibly have all of God's word in a book.

It is freely admitted that the Bible was penned by man. Man has free will. God WILL NOT (by his own promise) interfere with that- That is part of the WORD OF GOD. So, if one evil person decided to change something, it could be easily done. If some evil person felt like making their own gospel, with their own ideas, it could be done.

[edit on 6-6-2005 by babloyi]



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