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The Anti-Christian conspiracy

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posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 04:12 PM
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MALATYA, Turkey (AP) -- The killings of three Christians in eastern Turkey highlight the country's uneasy relationship with its minorities, and Christians expressed fear that growing nationalism and intolerance could lead to more violence against them.

"Our lives are in danger because of this mind-set," the Rev. Ihsan Ozbek, pastor of the Kurtulus Church in Ankara, told a news conference in Malatya.

Since last year, Turkish youths have killed a Roman Catholic priest while he prayed in a church in Trabzon, threatened other priests and killed a prominent Armenian Christian editor in Istanbul.


www.cnn.com...

What should be alarming to anyone is the fact that you can be killed for what you believe, even if that belief is "love your neighbor as yourself" and "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". Have you ever wondered why these two philosophies could put a human being's life in danger?




posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
What should be alarming to anyone is the fact that you can be killed for what you believe, even if that belief is "love your neighbor as yourself" and "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". Have you ever wondered why these two philosophies could put a human being's life in danger?


That's wierd, being killed for what you believe.

You want me to believe this is a conspiracy against Christianity?

Christianity, the same religion that killed people because they didn't believe?

The word 'hypocrit' ring a bell?

How can you possibly up-in-arms about this, when your religion has so much blood on it's own hands.

But wait.. Jesus didn't teach any of that, so I guess it doesn't count.



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby

Originally posted by saint4God
What should be alarming to anyone is the fact that you can be killed for what you believe, even if that belief is "love your neighbor as yourself" and "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". Have you ever wondered why these two philosophies could put a human being's life in danger?


That's wierd, being killed for what you believe.

You want me to believe this is a conspiracy against Christianity?

Christianity, the same religion that killed people because they didn't believe?

The word 'hypocrit' ring a bell?

How can you possibly up-in-arms about this, when your religion has so much blood on it's own hands.

But wait.. Jesus didn't teach any of that, so I guess it doesn't count.


Do you believe in killing women? If not, is it okay if I still hold you responsible for the behavior of other men?



posted on Apr, 20 2007 @ 07:03 PM
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Originally posted by undo
Do you believe in killing women? If not, is it okay if I still hold you responsible for the behavior of other men?


Who said I was holding saint or you responsable?

'Christianity'.

Not you.

Not saint.

C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N-I-T-Y



posted on Apr, 24 2007 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
That's wierd, being killed for what you believe.


I'm glad we both agree on this. If we're able to convince others that this is a better way of thinking, perhaps then we could enjoy more peace.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
You want me to believe this is a conspiracy against Christianity?


Nope, I want this to be viewed as a piece of a much greater puzzle.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Christianity, the same religion that killed people because they didn't believe?


Name one person Christianity killed for any reason.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
The word 'hypocrit' ring a bell?


I'm familiar with the term, being called it daily without substantiation much of the time by ATS regulars.

I'm sure there have been things I've done that make me a hypocrite so it's a good thing I'm not leading a faith called "saint4Godism". A contradiction in term if you think about it so I'd be double the hypocrite if I did.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
How can you possibly up-in-arms about this, when your religion has so much blood on it's own hands.


Interesting you use the reference to Pontius Pilate in the Bible in your phrase. Anyway, Pontius Pilate was not a Christian, nor were the Jews who shouted "Crucify him!" nor anyone who killed anyone thereafter because it was out of their own selfish desires for money, land, power, status, etc. Their god was not God, but these things that pass away when we die.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
But wait.. Jesus didn't teach any of that, so I guess it doesn't count.


Wow, we agreed twice in the same post. It's been a while since we did that


[edit on 24-4-2007 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 24 2007 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Nope, I want this to be viewed as a piece of a much greater puzzle.


How can there be a conspiracy, when pretty much 1/3 of the planet are a part of Christianity. The most powerful person in the world is a Christian, Mr.George Bush. Just because there are some cases of Christians being murdered, or persecution because they're the minority religion in Turkey, that's nothing any other group hasn't recieved.


Originally posted by saint4God
Name one person Christianity killed for any reason.


Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, witch burning. Sorry I didn't personally know anyone from the middle ages, mainly because I didn't live in the middle ages.


Originally posted by saint4God
I'm familiar with the term, being called it daily without substantiation much of the time by ATS regulars.


Perhaps I'm part of the conspiracy to bring down the foundations of Christianity.


Originally posted by saint4God
Interesting you use the reference to Pontius Pilate in the Bible in your phrase.


I did?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
But wait.. Jesus didn't teach any of that, so I guess it doesn't count.


Originally posted by saint4God
Wow, we agreed twice in the same post. It's been a while since we did that



So who exactly are you following? God or Jesus? Because Jesus is supposedly God's son, yet Jesus is still God. We haven't even used the Holy Spirit/Ghost and it's already confusing.

[edit on 24-4-2007 by shaunybaby]



posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 12:27 AM
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That Saint is saying that the things which are often cited... the inquisition, murder of the Cathars, the various Crusades, and the church universally preaching hatred of certain people (Such as gays, other races, etc.)... Are done against Christianity, as the precepts and tenets which Christ taught do not condone the killing of those that are non-believers.

As such, Christianity could not be responsible since it is ANTI-christian to excuse ones self from responsibility by claiming you do it in the name of God.

As was suggested before, the conspiracy is against Christians due to the majority of ANTI-christians who cause others to believe that all these things are Christian.



posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 07:52 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
How can there be a conspiracy, when pretty much 1/3 of the planet are a part of Christianity.


Ah, so in order for there to be a conspiracy, Christians must be exterminated in mass numbers with survivors living in little hovels? Not yet, but it's in the plan. The question isn't how (which is pretty easy really), the question is when. I disagree with many of my counterparts in saying that I do not see it occurring in the next hundred years. Events though tend to unfold quickly, so surely I could be wrong.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
The most powerful person in the world is a Christian, Mr.George Bush.


I've seen him documented as a Christian, but I don't know. Politics is tricky, people tend to say what others want to hear.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Just because there are some cases of Christians being murdered, or persecution because they're the minority religion in Turkey, that's nothing any other group hasn't recieved.


What it demonstrates is when Christianity is a minority religion, is does undergo "some cases of Christians being murdered". Lets look at minority religions in this country and see if they are being killed in the same way:

Bhuddists
Hindu
Taoists
Athiests (yes, it is a religion)
Satanists
Shinto
Muslim
etc. , etc.

I do not see the persecution of these religious peoples in my country nor England for that matter (got to visit there last summer). I'm sure we can look at any Christian majority nation as well to see if they're killing others for their beliefs.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, witch burning. Sorry I didn't personally know anyone from the middle ages, mainly because I didn't live in the middle ages.


Before we return to the crusades rant again, let me remind that the crusades were not a religious act, but a political one with motivations of land, money, greed, social status and power acquisition. This can be verified historically. If you look a bit closer, you'll find the same for the Spanish Inquisition and witch burnings, though its not as obvious on the surface.

Turkey, those who have access to the same technology, political, and social progress than the rest of the world has people who are doing this. Even by your model, they've had 500 years to "figure it out".

I'm sorry, but you've still yet to name a single Christian who has murdered anyone.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Perhaps I'm part of the conspiracy to bring down the foundations of Christianity.


I don't believe so. At least not intentionally. I think you're testing metal, which is good. It should be tested as we are to "test everything" (apostle Paul). I did the same and glad I did. I'm not only who could merely toss my faith into something that won't hold forever.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
I did?


Yep. Matthew 27:24.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
So who exactly are you following? God or Jesus? Because Jesus is supposedly God's son, yet Jesus is still God. We haven't even used the Holy Spirit/Ghost and it's already confusing.


It is confusing for two reasons. First, the way it is taught. Second, it goes beyond the physical reality we're accustomed to. The King James version I think is especially confusing because we don't talk in "thee"s and "thou"s (New Internation Version is better for modern English). I think these days its a little easier to "get it" because we've got some wild technology and theory that helps us comprehend more three-dimentional concepts.

Personally I went to God and asked if this Jesus guy was for real (after of course establishing there was a God via obtaining personal proof). From there things tend to fall into place.

Best I can describe is God is the "King of Kings", gets final say, made the universe, is the ultimate judge. His word is law. Christ is the teacher, messiah, the intercessor for when we screw up. Christ is a part of God which we have issue with since we always see people as two separate bodies...but spiritually it appears this kind of division doesn't necessarily exist. The physical law of "Two bodies of matter cannot occupy the same space at the same time" works for mortals and earthly things, but according to the reading, the Kingdom of Heaven has an interesting set of physics. It's like comparing gravity on earth with the moon. They both have gravity, but how do you explain the moon's gravity to someone who has never seen any videos of it? What do you mean objects don't fall there at 9.8 m/s^2 ?! I'd love to talk more about ethereal dynamics, but should cut short to try to maintain topic. Feel free to add on "The Absolute Power of Christianity" thread and we can go from there.


[edit on 25-4-2007 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 07:59 AM
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The Essenes advocate that you won't find Christ in a building...you find it within yourself. I do not support organised religion but I do walk the Essene Path.

People accept Buddhism, the Native American Indians accepted Hiawatha when he came...the message of Christ was ultimately peace and yet, for some reason, the message has become bastadized. And so, I tend to feel perhaps it has all been in vain. Christ doesnt advocate killing, he taught, love and yet everyone is fighting and killing.

I do feel those people who needed to see what he tried to achieve, did see and will go home.



posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Ah, so in order for there to be a conspiracy, Christians must be exterminated in mass numbers with survivors living in little hovels?


No. Please tell me where I've said this, don't put words in my mouth.


Originally posted by saint4God
What it demonstrates is when Christianity is a minority religion, is does undergo "some cases of Christians being murdered".


That's the whole point of a minority, in anything. It's not majority, it's not exactly popular.


Originally posted by saint4God
I do not see the persecution of these religious peoples in my country nor England for that matter (got to visit there last summer). I'm sure we can look at any Christian majority nation as well to see if they're killing others for their beliefs.


Rather than killing, Christians tend to try and convert you (these days). The bigger the flock, the better.


Originally posted by saint4God
Before we return to the crusades rant again, let me remind that the crusades were not a religious act, but a political one with motivations of land, money, greed, social status and power acquisition. This can be verified historically. If you look a bit closer, you'll find the same for the Spanish Inquisition and witch burnings, though its not as obvious on the surface.


They were Christian nevertheless. Maybe not 'Christian' as you would see a Christian today. Then again let's look at the most recent 'political act' of Christianity; George Bush going to war with Iraq, I think was partly religious motivated, hence a lot of the time him saying 'we will find evil, destroy evil, we need to fight the evil' etc. Very religiously motivated president. A president with too much power at his hands. The same as the powerful religious leaders of the middle ages, they extended their reach too far and hence, those 'political' attrocities occured.


Originally posted by saint4God
I'm sorry, but you've still yet to name a single Christian who has murdered anyone.


Michael F. Griffin
John C. Salvi


Originally posted by saint4God
Yep. Matthew 27:24.


Didn't know.


Originally posted by saint4God
Personally I went to God and asked if this Jesus guy was for real (after of course establishing there was a God via obtaining personal proof). From there things tend to fall into place.


Why go to God about Jesus, when Jesus is God? If you follow Jesus' teachings, then why follow God? But then again you are following God, because Jesus is God.

I'll carry this bit on in the absolute power of Christianity, still got more questions about the whole three thing, holy spirit etc.

[edit on 25-4-2007 by shaunybaby]



posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by NJE777
The Essenes advocate that you won't find Christ in a building...you find it within yourself. I do not support organised religion but I do walk the Essene Path.


Nothing wrong with that I think. I did find a church that added a lot of value to my life and helps in my spiritual growth.


Originally posted by NJE777
the message of Christ was ultimately peace and yet, for some reason, the message has become bastadized. And so, I tend to feel perhaps it has all been in vain. Christ doesnt advocate killing, he taught, love and yet everyone is fighting and killing.


A well illustrated point.



posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
No. Please tell me where I've said this, don't put words in my mouth.


I didn't mean to represent you as saying what I said, it was a question asking what a conspiracy is supposed to look like. It seems your case is because the world is 1/3 Christian that there isn't a conspiracy. I don't see the connection.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
That's the whole point of a minority, in anything. It's not majority, it's not exactly popular.


I'm with ya...which is why I'm confused about the point above.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Rather than killing, Christians tend to try and convert you (these days). The bigger the flock, the better.


It's a futile effort. No person can convert another according to any Bible believer. I'll be honest, if I were endowed with the ability to convert someone then that is all I would ever do. Starting with you of course, because I think you're both reasonable and intelligent. Two great qualities for a believer. You would say "show me proof!" and I would go *poof* "Here's your proof" and we'd both go along our merry way. You can get your proof, just not from me (or any other person for that matter). Would if I could.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
They were Christian nevertheless. Maybe not 'Christian' as you would see a Christian today.


I'd reverse the two. I can prove they were not Christians. They may have called themselves "Christian" but not the case. Point 1: Christians follow Christ (which is where the word comes from). Point 2: Christ said, "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". Do you really think crusaders in a blood bath were loving their enemies as they sliced them with sword? If so, how is that done?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Then again let's look at the most recent 'political act' of Christianity; George Bush going to war with Iraq, I think was partly religious motivated, hence a lot of the time him saying 'we will find evil, destroy evil, we need to fight the evil' etc. Very religiously motivated president.


...or at least a president speaking to a religious crown, no? See above definition of Christian.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
A president with too much power at his hands. The same as the powerful religious leaders of the middle ages, they extended their reach too far and hence, those 'political' attrocities occured.


I agree 100%. To add my own words, using belief in God to contradict what His own son says is a heinous sin.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Michael F. Griffin
John C. Salvi


Thank you for bringing up specifics. You're one of the few people I know here to take this kind of discussion seriously, at least being able to illustrate a perspective with real world names or information. Regarding the two names, I find it laughable that the term "Christian terriorist" was used to describe both because it is an oxymoron. They were terrorists, as I see it. Show me please where Christ taught murder, instilling fear into opponents, or even for us to judge who is evil and take their life.

Thank you for bringing up wikipedia. Further evidence of an anti-Christian conspiracy. They seem to have synergized the false misnomer of "Christian terrorist". Further evidence can be reviewed here:



Christian Terrorists?
By Jay Sekulow
Thursday, April 5, 2007

Preparing for potential hostage-taking is one thing; blaming the hostage-taking on conservative Christians is not only inappropriate, but outrageous and raises serious constitutional questions as well.

Investigators described the gunmen as "members of a right-wing fundamentalist group called 'The New Crusaders,' who don't believe in the separation of church and state." The mock gunmen went to the school seeking justice "because the daughter of one had been expelled for praying before class."

Many Christian students were outraged by the school's mockery of their religious beliefs. Parents and other members of the community are equally offended by the school's anti-Christian animosity. Frankly, this kind of anti-Christian bigotry by school officials is despicable and is not related in any way to the legitimate purposes of a hostage drill. In fact, the Constitution forbids public school officials from demonstrating this kind of open hostility towards religious beliefs with which they disagree. Furthermore, the whole predicate of the exercise is outrageous. The perpetrators of the hostage-taking were allegedly motivated because their daughter had been expelled for praying before the beginning of the school day. Not only do students have the right to pray before the school day, but Burlington Township officials acknowledge that they have that right. So this entire scenario was unrealistic, unnecessary and offensive. How the school superintendent could say with a straight face that they needed to "practice under conditions as real as possible … in order to evaluate our procedures and plans so that they are as effective as possible," while at the same time using this unbelievable fictional scenario defies common sense. Could you imagine the outrage if this fictional scenario involved any other religious group? No other religious group in America would tolerate this kind of insult.

townhall.com...


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Didn't know.


One of the great things about ATS, I'm learning new stuff all the time here too.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Why go to God about Jesus, when Jesus is God?


I wasn't sure at the time. I had evidence of God but not Jesus, as I saw it. I'd heard about Jesus, but didn't know if it was legit or was a ploy to pull true believers in God away from Him. I wasn't about to go following some rabbit trail with eternity on the line.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
If you follow Jesus' teachings, then why follow God? But then again you are following God, because Jesus is God.


Sounds like you got it. The teaching is the same. Jesus teaches what God instructs, God instructed what Jesus taught. It take a few books before the New Testament, the gospels and sections about "testing the spirits" in the epistles to put it all together.

The people of Jesus' time had many questions relating to, around, about and through what he had to say. They were great legalistic thinkers with an eye for detail and digging into loopholes. They'd been burned by false gods and leaders before, so this Jesus guy would really be put through the ringer to pass any kind of validation. That they did.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
I'll carry this bit on in the absolute power of Christianity, still got more questions about the whole three thing, holy spirit etc.


Cool! Sounds good & will see ya there.


[edit on 25-4-2007 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
I didn't mean to represent you as saying what I said, it was a question asking what a conspiracy is supposed to look like. It seems your case is because the world is 1/3 Christian that there isn't a conspiracy. I don't see the connection.


Well, rather than looking at just Turkey and Christianity as a minority there. On the whole, Christianity makes up about 33% of the world's belief, so how can that be 'anti'? If anything, Christianity is so widely accepted as a faith that there's 33% of the world that believe in it. I don't see how there is a conspiracy to bring down Christianity, it's the more popular faith out there.


Originally posted by saint4God
It's a futile effort. No person can convert another according to any Bible believer.


Then why do JWs go from door to door? If they couldn't sell you Jesus, then they wouldn't be knocking on doors. Obviously it does work, otherwise they wouldn't bother knocking.


Originally posted by saint4God
I'd reverse the two. I can prove they were not Christians. They may have called themselves "Christian" but not the case. Point 1: Christians follow Christ (which is where the word comes from). Point 2: Christ said, "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". Do you really think crusaders in a blood bath were loving their enemies as they sliced them with sword? If so, how is that done?


They were the Christians of their day. Are you saying there is not one Christian in the US army? Because they do their duty to their country, and their job, is it up to you to judge that they are not Christian because you say they're not following Christ's words?


Originally posted by saint4God
Thank you for bringing up specifics. You're one of the few people I know here to take this kind of discussion seriously, at least being able to illustrate a perspective with real world names or information. Regarding the two names, I find it laughable that the term "Christian terriorist" was used to describe both because it is an oxymoron. They were terrorists, as I see it. Show me please where Christ taught murder, instilling fear into opponents, or even for us to judge who is evil and take their life.


Yeah, Christian Terrorist sounds a bit 'newspaper-.line-pun'. A lot of it seems to do with abortion, every life is sacred, you have no right to take a life away that God has created, i'm going to kill you, hence an eye for an eye etc. Some people do pick up The Bible, and think it's their right to advocate the murder of abortion doctors. I know you can pick up The Bible and teach people some Buddhist-esque ways of living and co-existing with the people around you. Yet, obviously you can pick it up and think you have the right to do the absolute opposite, and still feel as though it's well within your rights to.


Originally posted by saint4God
Sounds like you got it. The teaching is the same. Jesus teaches what God instructs, God instructed what Jesus taught. It take a few books before the New Testament, the gospels and sections about "testing the spirits" in the epistles to put it all together.


But if Jesus is God, and Jesus is teaching what God instructs, what about some of the things God instructs in the OT? As you're fully aware this was before Christianity, and I think you could sum up the OT God as a wraithful God. However, surely this is the same God, and hence this is Jesus? (This might better suit the APOC thread, might post something up later tonight, questions etc).



posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
Well, rather than looking at just Turkey and Christianity as a minority there. On the whole, Christianity makes up about 33% of the world's belief, so how can that be 'anti'? If anything, Christianity is so widely accepted as a faith that there's 33% of the world that believe in it. I don't see how there is a conspiracy to bring down Christianity, it's the more popular faith out there.


Again, I'm not sure why 33% of the world believing means that there's no conspiracy at all. The larger that percentage goes, the greater the response from the conspiracy is going to be until it is successful in reversal.


Originally posted by shaunybaby

Originally posted by saint4God
It's a futile effort. No person can convert another according to any Bible believer.


Then why do JWs go from door to door?


I'm sure there are people who believe they're they ones doing the converting, but they're mistaken. They're merely a vehicle. I'm not sure what the JW stance is on it. I've had conversations with them but not on this issue in particular.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
If they couldn't sell you Jesus, then they wouldn't be knocking on doors. Obviously it does work, otherwise they wouldn't bother knocking.


I'm sure even they'd say they're not the ones doing the converting. I'm welcomed to be checked on it though. If they do, it's a self-inflating illusion and goes against their namesake.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
They were the Christians of their day.


They were proclaiming they were and one can measure Christ's words against it to know for sure or if it was a mere self-declared title.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Are you saying there is not one Christian in the US army?


I wouldn't know. I'd doubt there isn't one.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Because they do their duty to their country, and their job,


I'm sure they do their duty to their country and their job.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
is it up to you to judge that they are not Christian


Not at all. The judge has already spoken. I'm only listening and in some cases repeating.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
because you say they're not following Christ's words?


What they do versus Christ's words should be evident by themselves. No one needs me to make meaning of it or judge. My judgement is useless, and would cause judgement upon me as well.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Yeah, Christian Terrorist sounds a bit 'newspaper-.line-pun'.


Glad you can see that too
.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
A lot of it seems to do with abortion, every life is sacred, you have no right to take a life away that God has created, i'm going to kill you, hence an eye for an eye etc. Some people do pick up The Bible, and think it's their right to advocate the murder of abortion doctors. I know you can pick up The Bible and teach people some Buddhist-esque ways of living and co-existing with the people around you. Yet, obviously you can pick it up and think you have the right to do the absolute opposite, and still feel as though it's well within your rights to.


What does Christ say about an eye for an eye?

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. " - Matthew 5:38-39

It doesn't require any flavour or seasoning, it says what it says. A sheep in a dress is still a sheep.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
But if Jesus is God, and Jesus is teaching what God instructs, what about some of the things God instructs in the OT? As you're fully aware this was before Christianity, and I think you could sum up the OT God as a wraithful God. However, surely this is the same God, and hence this is Jesus? (This might better suit the APOC thread, might post something up later tonight, questions etc).


Sure, good question. What we've seen of God in the Old Testament is His judgement, which we also see at the end of the New Testament (Revelation). At the end of the Old Testament and most of the new is His mercy. How is God both the judge and merciful? That's what the whole plan about Christ is about. Would love to go into great detail via APOC thread or U2U.



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 12:33 PM
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Why are the two of you hogging the topic? ^^^ LOL

It's clear that neither of you will see eye to eye on any of this. Saint4god, do you respect what's-his-name beliefs? No, I doubt you do, & vice versa.

I do not respect Christianity. I respect good people, whether they call themselves Christians or not. There are different Christian sects, Catholic, Pentecostal & such...Some of these sects do not allow...birth control to be a question...or...perhaps, female pastors & the likes. That is Christian! That is the religious aspect of that flawed religion. To practice those teachings makes you Christian. That is what man has made, not God, not Jesus, but man!

To uphold most of the bible & not practice stupid practices is not being Christian. That is simply being a wise person. You may want to call yourself Christian...but you're not. To be a true Christian you must behave like an idiot & view the world in a little box where you run things. To not do that, is to basically be a a good person.

As for the bible & any bible...I don't agree with anything that is religious in any of them, simply because all these bibles have been edited, written & edited by man on countless occasions. How am I to know if God/Allah/Mother Lakshmi wrote, or said any of those things when man has proven himself to be the ones behind the writings...& there I say...edits(That's probably worse than writing it).

So, great, we all agree, you can't use the bible/bibles to reference anything, because they do not say a damn thing to me or anyone with a brain and uses it. To hell with the bible & all of them! And honestly...if you follow anything that is so very flawed & has as much gaps as the grand canyon...maybe more..you're foolish. Maybe I'm being an @**hole...just know I think exactly the same of you.

And there is no Anti-christian conspiracy. Maybe the Muslims have a conspiracy...but no one else that I know of. Whatever people don't see wise/makes sense about your Chirstian religion is your own falut. Maybe what you need to do is get a bunch of smart people to re-write the bible...maybe make it a little more sensible in some scriptures...and maybe get a team of people do so every 100 years, because it's clear to see that it's out dated...& I'm not biased & I do not discriminate...that counts for all the bibles!

[edit on 26-4-2007 by sdrawkcab]



posted on Apr, 27 2007 @ 02:24 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Again, I'm not sure why 33% of the world believing means that there's no conspiracy at all. The larger that percentage goes, the greater the response from the conspiracy is going to be until it is successful in reversal.


In your eyes how does this conspiracy pan out, how does it end? Will there be some sort of sign you can say to me, that when that happens, that will be when this conspiracy is realised?


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
Why are the two of you hogging the topic? ^^^ LOL


Everyone's free to join in and participate in any thread on this board.


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
It's clear that neither of you will see eye to eye on any of this. Saint4god, do you respect what's-his-name beliefs? No, I doubt you do, & vice versa.


I think when I first joined this forum, I didn't have respect for other people's beliefs, I was hear to try and change those beliefs. However, my goals have changed, I'm not here for that, I'm here to discuss things, learn things, find out new things, and also have grown to respect another person's beliefs. I know myself and saint rarely see eye to eye, it doesn't mean we can have a discussion on here though, if anything it makes for light entertainment that we rarely see eye to eye.


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
And honestly...if you follow anything that is so very flawed & has as much gaps as the grand canyon...maybe more..you're foolish.


The only problem I have with The Bible is 'authenticity'. I don't think it necessarily has flaws. Authenticity however, is a problem for me. Are those four gospels, and accounts of Jesus' life authentic and accurate portrayals. I don't think they are, that's why I'm not a Christian.

I caught a bit of the passion of Christ a little while back, I remember it saying something about persecution. That Christ was being persecuted, and that at some point in time people that follow him will also follow suit? So is this anti-Christian conspiracy anything to do with prophecy or proving Christ's words?



posted on Apr, 27 2007 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by sdrawkcab
Why are the two of you hogging the topic? ^^^ LOL


Because only shauny and I are brave enough to dig in and get a little mussed
. Hehe, seriously though I think it's because we're two people with a whole lot of patience and a desire to grow in understanding.


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
It's clear that neither of you will see eye to eye on any of this. Saint4god, do you respect what's-his-name beliefs? No, I doubt you do, & vice versa.


My, that's quite assumptive of you. I hope the evidence of the threads we engage on show otherwise. Of course I respect shauny's beliefs and I do believe he respects mine. Likewise we challenge each other's beliefs and I think rightfully so. If a belief collapses because of discussion and reasoning, was there anything there worth believing in in the first place?


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
I do not respect Christianity. I respect good people, whether they call themselves Christians or not. There are different Christian sects, Catholic, Pentecostal & such...Some of these sects do not allow...birth control to be a question...or...perhaps, female pastors & the likes. That is Christian!


The anti-birth control is Catholic as I understand it. Some groups do not allow female pastors, but by all means is not all of Christianity. There are two types of people in the world: Those who lump everyone into catagories and those who don't
.


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
That is the religious aspect of that flawed religion. To practice those teachings makes you Christian. That is what man has made, not God, not Jesus, but man!


Likewise I respect your right to believe what you will also.


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
To uphold most of the bible & not practice stupid practices is not being Christian.


The Bible is to be taken en totale. Cherry picking is not permitted by the very understanding of the faith.


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
That is simply being a wise person. You may want to call yourself Christian...but you're not. To be a true Christian you must behave like an idiot & view the world in a little box where you run things. To not do that, is to basically be a a good person.


I'd like to exchange your microscope for a telescope. It seems you have a very narrow view.


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
As for the bible & any bible...I don't agree with anything that is religious in any of them, simply because all these bibles have been edited, written & edited by man on countless occasions.


I'd ask for specifics, but this challenge usually comes up empty.


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
How am I to know if God/Allah/Mother Lakshmi wrote, or said any of those things when man has proven himself to be the ones behind the writings...& there I say...edits(That's probably worse than writing it).


Ask.


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
So, great, we all agree, you can't use the bible/bibles to reference anything, because they do not say a damn thing to me or anyone with a brain and uses it. To hell with the bible & all of them! And honestly...if you follow anything that is so very flawed & has as much gaps as the grand canyon...maybe more..you're foolish. Maybe I'm being an @**hole...just know I think exactly the same of you.


A cup of tea and jazz music usually settles me if I'm feeling uncomfortable.


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
And there is no Anti-christian conspiracy.


You've done quite a job of convincing people otherwise.


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
Maybe the Muslims have a conspiracy...but no one else that I know of.


Maybe. Make a thread and state your case.


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
Whatever people don't see wise/makes sense about your Chirstian religion is your own falut.


I agree that Christians often are faulty in representing their faith. I'm no exception sometimes. This is why Christians (and everyone else as well) should do more pointing up than at other people.


Originally posted by sdrawkcab
Maybe what you need to do is get a bunch of smart people to re-write the bible...maybe make it a little more sensible in some scriptures...and maybe get a team of people do so every 100 years, because it's clear to see that it's out dated...& I'm not biased & I do not discriminate...that counts for all the bibles!


It'd be flawed and frivolous to do so. Why follow the teachings of man when you can follow the teachings of God? It's like giving up gold for stone.


[edit on 27-4-2007 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 27 2007 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
In your eyes how does this conspiracy pan out, how does it end? Will there be some sort of sign you can say to me, that when that happens, that will be when this conspiracy is realised?


These are great probing questions, one of the reasons why I can appreciate you being on ATS. Unfortunately I know more about who and why, with only a little how and when. How it pans out is a move not only away from respect and consideration for faith-based persons, but a distain or resentment for it. The vehicle could be political, media, scientific but from the looks of things, ammunition would be gathered from these sources and more. The ammunition I'm talking about is not bullets (at first) but rather a convincing that Christianity is a detriment, then a danger, and finally an evil. Believers will be considered cancerous to a society and would be looked at for removal. It's an easy win when your opponent does not fight back. But, it's not a genocide that happens quickly (as far as I know). Rather, it takes time to convince that self-worship, hedonism, and secular judgement is the better way. Christianity would be "old hat" and ancient words would be thought to "no longer apply".

As far as a sign, I'd not been gifted as a sign-giver and am skeptical of those who say they are (Matthew 12:39 explains why). When the end of the age comes, nobody knows as it is said to come like a thief in the night (quickly and without warning). But, it does not mean no signs are given. Here's the one that most applies to us I think:

"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his fore., so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name." - Revelation 13:16

Perhaps that means we'd go from coins to paper money, paper money to plastic money (credit cards), then plastic money to plastic microchips. You can buy those chips now to locate your dog, convicts and perhaps children. You can "blink" your credit card without physically swiping it or use your speedpass for gas and tolls. Perhaps not, but just a thought.

Hope that helps and am grateful for the questions.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
I think when I first joined this forum, I didn't have respect for other people's beliefs, I was hear to try and change those beliefs. However, my goals have changed, I'm not here for that, I'm here to discuss things, learn things, find out new things, and also have grown to respect another person's beliefs. I know myself and saint rarely see eye to eye, it doesn't mean we can have a discussion on here though, if anything it makes for light entertainment that we rarely see eye to eye.


Wow, this was well said!
I'd say beyond light entertainment is provoking thought. There have been some real zingers that caused me to dig in to get answers.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
I caught a bit of the passion of Christ a little while back, I remember it saying something about persecution. That Christ was being persecuted, and that at some point in time people that follow him will also follow suit? So is this anti-Christian conspiracy anything to do with prophecy or proving Christ's words?


Absolutely! More of Revelation 13...

"The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world."

"And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed."

I'm on the chopping block on earth. It's only a matter of when (Have I "converted" anyone to become a Christian with this announcement?
). It is because of this realization that I don't hesitate to speak about the things that matter.

[edit on 27-4-2007 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 27 2007 @ 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by sdrawkcab
Maybe what you need to do is get a bunch of smart people to re-write the bible...maybe make it a little more sensible in some scriptures...and maybe get a team of people do so every 100 years, because it's clear to see that it's out dated...& I'm not biased & I do not discriminate...that counts for all the bibles!


You're making some big assumptions here with that statement. You're assuming God doesn't exist and that the Bible and (I'm assuming) all religions are simply tools to control people. You're also assuming that it should change based on our culture and what we find to be convenient.

If God exists, why would He change based on our current culture? Which culture should He adopt? After all, there are many throughout the world. If God exists, why would we need smart people to change/update scripture? Is man smarter than God? What is out dated? Should we rewrite Shakespeare's plays because they're old? Should we rewrite Homer's Illiad for the same reason? Update the walls of the pyramids?

Finally, you say it's clear that it's out dated...How so? What makes it so clear?

While you may be claiming you're not biased, your statements seem to indicate otherwise.



posted on Apr, 27 2007 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
If God exists, why would He change based on our current culture?


god wouldn't change so much as the way god speaks to people would. you can't read the current edition of the bible and get the same things out of it as people that read each book of the bible as it was written got out of it.

if your god does exist, i doubt it would speak to humanity today as it spoke to us thousands of years ago.



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