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originally posted by: Dcopymope
1. If God only wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life, why bother planting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to start with, especially knowing they were going to disobey since he is omniscient?
originally posted by: Dcopymope
This is the true reason why Jesus was sent, to eradicate the knowledge of good and evil
originally posted by: Sabrechucker
a reply to: Dcopymope
S&F for a thoughtful thread but..we haven't a clue
We've all played that campfire game in which..Person 1 whispers to person 2 "Bumble Bee Tuna" and it's relayed onto 20 more people. Person 20 say's the original word was Swordfish, And that's just 20 people. We can't possible pretend what was "meant" thousands of years ago.
originally posted by: dfnj2015
It's not that Christians are persecuted. The problem with Christianity is a psychological one. Friedrich Nietzsche had some acute criticisms of Christianity. He said Christianity was born in response to Roman oppression. It took hold in the minds of timid slaves who did not have the courage or strength to take what they really wanted. The slaves could not admit to their own failings. So they clung to a philosophy that made virtue of cowardice. Everything the Christians wanted and wished they had in their lives for fulfillment was considered to be a sin. A position in the world, prestige, good sex, intellectual mastery, personal wealth were too difficult or beyond their reach. The Christian slaves created a hypocritical creed denouncing what they really wanted but were incapable of achieving while praising what they did not want was being virtuous. So in the Christian value system sexlessness turned into 'purity', weakness became "goodness," submission to authority became "obedience," and in Nietzsche's words, "not-being-able-take-revenge" turned into "forgiveness." A Christian slave was too weak to have any personal voice and was only capable of bending a knee to whoever was in authority. We have to balance submission to authority with a healthy self-esteem and confidence in our own inner authority.
Blind obedience to authority gives rise to people like Hitler who pretend to be God on Earth.
a philosophy that made virtue of cowardice
A position in the world, prestige, good sex, intellectual mastery, personal wealth
in the Christian value system sexlessness turned into 'purity'
weakness became "goodness,"
submission to authority became "obedience,"
originally posted by: dfnj2015
So Jesus did not really die. No harm, no foul. You can't be resurrected if you never really were dead in the first place.
originally posted by: dfnj2015
Christianity has way too much goofy logic to be true. The Bible had to be written by men because of all the errors and crazy stuff.
originally posted by: dfnj2015
There is only true all-power all-loving God. And that God is God. There is only one God. And that God is God.
originally posted by: stormson
a reply to: Dcopymope
was jesus really a sacrifice?
usually a sacrifice is something you give up, never to get it again. thats not what jesus did.
if jesus was god, then he knew he wouldnt stay dead. he gave up nothing. no sacrifice.
if i give up coffee for 3 days, knowing that i will get coffee after that, did i sacrifice coffee? no.
originally posted by: Sabrechucker
a reply to: Dcopymope
I'll agree to that but, what is good and what is evil still remains a mystery to me.
originally posted by: GBP/JPY
man, nice....nicely written.
God had no choice....the devils bargain....
lately this what's in mind alot. Why was blood needed..
god wants the matter overwith, huh.....120 years to finish dealing with man...120 Jubilees about complete
originally posted by: Raggedyman
originally posted by: Sabrechucker
a reply to: Dcopymope
I'll agree to that but, what is good and what is evil still remains a mystery to me.
Jesus answered this clearly in my opinion at the sermon on the mount.
Love is good, if you sin motivated by love compassion then “ Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.”
Jesus taught love, in your heart, if your motivation is love, it can’t be evil, even if you get it wrong
In other words, "why did God allow the fall to occur?" is the question. I posted another thread about this subject before long ago, but I really wasn't satisfied with it, so I'm giving it another shot. Often, people end up going around the block to cross the street even though the answer is sitting right in front of their faces starting from the very beginning of the book. When speaking about the death and resurrection of Jesus, the true reason as to exactly why he had to be sacrificed is often overlooked in relation to the garden of Eden. There is a very good reason why the tree is called the "knowledge of good and evil".
Jesus makes it very clear that transgression against the law actually starts in the heart, not in action. The law says thou shalt not do this or that, but Jesus takes it even further from simply "doing" what is forbidden, to also thinking of doing what is forbidden, in your mind. From Gods point of view, you already sinned the moment you even thought about it. This explains why Satan already sinned the moment "iniquity was found within him", according to Ezekiel.
Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity.
This is the true reason why Jesus was sent, to eradicate the knowledge of good and evil, and it should be the basis for answering all of the more difficult questions people often ask, because I personally don’t see any other way to answer them convincingly. Assuming God decided not to plant the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the only thing that would have done was postpone what God already knew was inevitable. The fall, or the knowledge of sin cropping up within Adam and Eve was going to happen regardless if there was a tree or not. We can know this for sure because the fall already occurred in heaven with Satan, and it doesn’t put the blame on a tree for his fall into iniquity. This also addresses the second question. Could God have started over with another Adam, Eve and new earth? Sure, but I am 100% certain that God wouldn’t have allowed things to continue as they were if he actually had a choice.
Yes, I said it, God didn’t have a choice in the matter, because the truth is, the whole creation is doomed without Jesus. I can appease the Hebrew Israelite/old testament only folks and take Jesus out of the picture for the sake of the hypothetical. We now only have old testament history, and perhaps revelation, minus Jesus. God judges every soul and destroys the old earth for a new heaven, earth and new Jerusalem. Those whose names were in the book of life are once again made sinless, or “perfect in thy ways” like Satan was, or “good” like Adam and Eve was. We can even take it a step further and say that God rewards all those in the book of life with the much vaunted “glorified body”, that contrary to popular opinion has nothing to do with being made sinless, but everything to do with being made immortal like angels are.
Now understanding this, what exactly did God achieve in this hypothetical scenario? Was the knowledge of sin addressed by him simply creating a new earth and granting you immortality? The truth is it wouldn’t have accomplished a damn thing. Sooner or later, the knowledge of sin would have corrupted the creation in the new earth yet again. God did not need a tree of life for Adam and Eve to live forever, because he could have created them immortal like the angels in heaven from the get go if he really wanted to.
The reason why he didn’t is simple, he knew the future and he planned accordingly, God is not a moron. This is the crucial point of doctrine that the old testament only crowd and many Christians alike are not getting. When the Bible speaks of the “regeneration”, it is not really referring to you personally becoming sinless in this life, but is in fact referring to the end times creation of a new heaven and earth, and the old earth passing away along with sin, never again coming to mind, keyword being mind. None of this would be possible without Jesus, because he is the "regeneration", it is only his resurrection that truly makes everything new. When people understand this, they will begin to see just how profound his death and resurrection really was.
This is the true reason why Jesus was sent, to eradicate the knowledge of good and evil, and it should be the basis for answering all of the more difficult questions people often ask, because I personally don’t see any other way to answer them convincingly. Assuming God decided not to plant the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the only thing that would have done was postpone what God already knew was inevitable. The fall, or the knowledge of sin cropping up within Adam and Eve was going to happen regardless if there was a tree or not.
originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Dcopymope
Reminds me of a certain Satanic figure in modern literature. You might have heard of a man named Goldstein.
originally posted by: TzarChasmYou say "God is all powerful" and then follow it with "God cant stop it". Then why call him God? Why worship a creature who has no power to prevent bad decisions?
originally posted by: TzarChasmSo the real question here is, who wrote the future that God executed? Because if he is unable to change the design, that suggests the design was never his. A greater force is in play here if you are right. God is not the highest of the high. A decoy? An impostor? A usurper? A myth? Who is the real "architect" and what is their real game? Nothing about this story makes sense.
originally posted by: TzarChasmSo it was all a coverup to disguise his biggest failure. He couldnt save his children from his own clever pets. I notice you didnt mention the snake at all, the serpent in the garden. Pretty sure that thing was one of his little toys that just happened to be in the right place at the right time. Not a coincidence.
(Revelation 12:7-9) "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, [8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. [9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
originally posted by: TzarChasmAnd for the record, there is no moral or ethical basis for torturing and executing an innocent man to save billions of innocent lives. To trade even a single life in that manner is to fail as a god. You become as dirty and haunted as every other champion who eventually met their limit and discovered that there is no such thing as a perfect hero.
(Romans 5:11-12) "And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. [12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 3:21-23) "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
originally posted by: glend
If Jesus died for our sins why 2000 years latter, is sin in this world, as strong as ever?
(2 Peter 3:10-13) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, [12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? [13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."
1. If God only wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life, why bother planting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to start with, especially knowing they were going to disobey since he is omniscient?
2. Since Adam and Eve disobeyed God, why didn't he just destroy them and start over? Why didn't he do the same to Satan?
Your ability to make decisions had nothing at all to do with Jesus Christs mission on earth. The knowledge of sin goes far beyond the very basic, human understanding of someone simply making 'bad decisions'. If there is no knowledge that can possibly be gained of something, then there isn't any "decisions" to be made based on it to start with. There won't be a "decision" that someone makes at any point in the new heaven and earth for God to be concerned about "stopping" from happening, since the knowledge the decision came from won't exist. I wouldn't get too caught up in basic, human understanding of what "all powerful" means either. These are human concepts applied to a being that, unless described in the Bible, is far beyond anything we can conceive of in our created little world, with our little pea brains.
My answer to this is very simple, before God there was no God formed, neither shall there be after him. God may have designed his creation perfect and sinless, or "good" like him, but that doesn't make them impervious to sin like God. This is where Jesus comes in. He wasn't sent here to "change the design", because the work is finished and was perfectly fine as he designed it. The only thing Jesus was sent here to change when it comes down to it was our ability to gain the "knowledge of good and evil".
Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity.
Every decision God makes is 100% intentional, so there was no mistake to be made to start with. He knew what the outcome would be because he knows the future. And there was no talking snake in the garden either, that "serpent" Genesis speaks of is quite plainly identified as Satan, who is not a snake, but an angelic being.
In other words, I in fact did mention Satan, multiple times where it mattered. Whether or not he was in the garden would not have stopped what was inevitable, so therefore it really doesn't matter. If there was no angel falling into iniquity first, it was happening eventually on earth regardless.
(Revelation 12:7-9) "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, [8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. [9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
You are not the standard of what is supposed to be "moral" and "ethical", God is, and that man who was sacrificed to save billions was not just a "man", he was the word made flesh, who was God, and was with God in the beginning. I can entertain the idea that he could have just randomly picked someone out of the crowd who was "perfect and upright" and feared God, like Job to be the sacrificial lamb. However, we know the sacrifice had to be without blemish, unleavened, or untainted, and there isn't a human on earth that could have possibly fit the bill. Why? its simple, because it was by Adam, one man that sin entered the world to start with, therefore, all have sinned and come short of God's glory.
Appeal to authority is a common type of fallacy, or an argument based on unsound logic. When writers or speakers use appeal to authority, they are claiming that something must be true because it is believed by someone who said to be an "authority" on the subject
1. If God only wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life, why bother planting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to start with, especially knowing they were going to disobey since he is omniscient?