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Why are so many anti-abortionists also anti-life?

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posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 03:34 AM
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I keep seeing people who are all for stopping abortion but yet are against funding programs that would help the mothers and the children once they are born. Bush for one is against abortion but yet he has cut most all social programs. Of the developed nations only one nation scored worse on child poverty than the USA and that was Mexico.




posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 08:30 PM
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.
Add to that the fact that most of them want to tear down every forest and pave it over, completely overfish the oceans so that populations collapse and very likely become extinct.

They seem to want to live in some concrete maze filled with an exploding human population.

They also seem to want people to behave like religious robots.

The future these people seem to want to create sounds like hell on earth.
.



posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 08:47 PM
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I find it quite funny that anti-abortionists are typically pro-death penalty, and pro-war. Go figure, ya know?



posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 09:09 PM
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what gets me about the anti abortionist's is also that they are pro-death penalty and almost always christians. I cannot fathom for even a moment how ANY christian could support the death penalty.

Do they honestly believe Jesus supported the death penalty while hanging there on that cross?

If the state would kill the son of god than what chance would an ordinary slob like me have against them?

For a christian to support the death penalty it is no differant than if they stood outside the prison and screamed, "Give us Barabas!"

This isn't an attack on christians, Its just one more thing I can't understand about them.

Love and light,

Wupy



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 07:17 AM
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You are right of course. But I would like to make one qualification. It is usually Protestant Christians.

Hypocrites.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 07:21 AM
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Another silly question.....what's so hard about understanding the difference between an innocent child, and someone that has committed a crime worthy of the death penalty...and I am not a Christian and it therefore has nothing to do with religion!



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 07:31 AM
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Originally posted by mrwupy
what gets me about the anti abortionist's is also that they are
pro-death penalty ... Its just one more thing I can't understand
about them.


Perhaps this will help you understand ....

I am prolife.
I am anti-abortion.
I am anti-death penalty.
I am a Christian (Catholic).

Perhaps all the generalization that I have seen on this thread
(with the exception of Lady V) is the problem. You assume that
someone who is prolife is pro death penalty. The people I know
that pray for abortions to end are the same people who pray for
the death penalty to end. And yes, before anyone asks,
we are all Catholic.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 07:35 AM
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Pro-Life
Pro Death Penalty

Anti-nanny state, don't steal my money at gunpoint to give it to someone esle. Government funded programs for any "social" activity is wrong.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
Anti-nanny state, don't steal my money at gunpoint to give it to someone esle. Government funded programs for any "social" activity is wrong.


Like faith based initiatives, right?

Or are you as pro-giving tax money to Moonies as you are pro-socialist military funding?



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 07:46 AM
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Ok even though I feel I have been totaly bashed already I will try to respond in a mature way. I as a Republican also wonder how you can argue abortion and birth control at the same time it just does not make sence. Leaving all of the other little remarks behind that have been posted I think that if we would all stop fighting on the issue it could be resolved. Take all of the money that has been spent on Pro and Anti abortion legal fees and put them into research on a safe effective method of birth control that would be given to all young people male and female then there should be no need for abortion. Think about it we have argued this since Roe V Wade and gotten no place. Maybe I am crazy but I think that we could convince enough males and females to take this new birth control inoculation to end abortion as we know it. I know several women that have had abortions and most feel ashamed or a sence of loss years down the road, most after they have started a family.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by goose
I keep seeing people who are all for stopping abortion but yet are against funding programs that would help the mothers and the children once they are born. Bush for one is against abortion but yet he has cut most all social programs. Of the developed nations only one nation scored worse on child poverty than the USA and that was Mexico.


Since most conservatives these days are incapable of articulating why they support the seemingly contradictory planks they do allow me fill in the logical gaps for the neo-conned.

They believe that good government is based soley on the individual. His inherant dignity, rights and freedoms. In real conservative politics (not neo-con liberalism) "society" is a lie. It does not exist (or is more accurately the enemy) as in it's promotion of the greater good a single "individual's" pursuit of life, liberty and happiness may be offended or retarded. The extent to which government is afforded right's over man at all is merely to ensure the initial equality of all... this begins and ends at the act of conception (taken straight out of the Texas GOP Platform). The extent to which government may impose upon a woman's pursuit of life, liberty and happiness to force her birthing is in this recognition. After birth, you're on your own. Government has done it's job. Should you not take responsibility for yourself then, it's of no concern to anyone else, and no responsibility of others to do so. Should you further infringe on another's pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, government can execute you. The end.

It's from this rather simplistic original conservative philosphy of all things radiating from the individual, that it gets tricky with the introduction of neo-con liberalism. If enough "individuals" constitute a majority and want to engineer society a certain way... fine.
And conservatism falls apart at that point. This is where they get authoritarian, morality enforcing, arbitrary, and rather restrictive of other individual's pursuit of life, liberty and happiness (as if they weren't already on the life begins at conception plank imposed on women).

In matters of economics, another bit of irony is imposed. There is no such thing as intelligent design or a directed economy of the greater good. Except those stemming from the chaos of individuals, there are no set goals at all. A form of free market natural selection, almost darwinism is allowed to randomly evolve into anything it sees fit. Of course, this favors certain "individuals" over others in reality and has only one outcome of further consolidation of money, power and monopolization, but we're not talking reality. We're talking ideology, where all are theoretically "equal" right? Because the government made sure you got here from that little egg. Now get to work for "the man" or die serf!



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Anti-nanny state, don't steal my money at gunpoint to give it to someone esle. Government funded programs for any "social" activity is wrong.


Like faith based initiatives, right?

Or are you as pro-giving tax money to Moonies as you are pro-socialist military funding?


Actually no tax money should go to any church, period. Each church should be supported by their own "inmates". Reduce gunpoint taxes for social programs and let the "inmates" fund such things without gov BS attached.

If you want proof that it will work, then look at the money raise for the BIG wave not from Gov's.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 08:53 AM
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RANT, I am not sure if I should agree or disagree on that because I am sure I will need to read it a few more times to fully understand it. But I must say excelent wording and very well written. Far above my own.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by RANT
The extent to which government may impose upon a woman's
pursuit of life, liberty and happiness to force her birthing is in
this recognition.


This thread is the alleged connection between pro-life and pro-death
penalty, so I'll try not to get too off course with ya' on this ...

The government doesn't impose upon woman to have sex and get
pregnant. MOST abortions are NOT from rape, they are from freely
consented to sexual relations. The choice to copulate was made
by the parents. When this act is made in an unprotected manner,
the result is human life. Most everyone on the planet knows this is
the end result. It isn't fair to punish the child with death because
of the poor choice made by the parents.

The government doesn't garuntee happiness, it only garuntees
the right to persue it. If the parents of a child aren't happy because
that child is on the way, they have only themselves to blame. They
made the choice to get all hotted up. The death penalty shouldn't
be imposed upon the child because the parents aren't happy.

Anyways ... I repeat... the people I know all are pro-life, anti-abortion,
and anti-death penalty. So I can't say that I see a connection between
anti-abortion and pro-death penalty. There may well be one, but
someone will have to post some stats on it because, in my life, I don't
see it.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid

don't steal my money at gunpoint to give it to someone esle

***************************************
Reduce gunpoint taxes for social programs


But can you folks please stop with the "gun point" analogy!?!?! You've never been at the business end, so hush that noise already, K ?



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Anyways ... I repeat... the people I know all are pro-life, anti-abortion,
and anti-death penalty. So I can't say that I see a connection between
anti-abortion and pro-death penalty. There may well be one, but
someone will have to post some stats on it because, in my life, I don't
see it.


Well I just gave you the logical one from conservative ideology. That's the connection for some. For example, to the extreme extension of the protection of a fetus, some advocate (and even attempt) the execution of health clinic workers for infringing on the right's of the fetus (or at least propose such ramifications for abortion should it be outlawed).

That's the connection. Not to mention both are common platforms of the GOP. There's innocent and equal, and irresponsible and infringing. There's no "sanctity of life" for the irresponsible and infringing in conservative ideology.

You obviously disagree (probably because of adherance to Christianity over conservative ideology) despite being predominantly of conservative political opinion yourself. But your party is obviously in opposition to you on the death penalty component.

It's not inherantly illogical that they are, as it's not Christianity or even necessarily adherant to it. It's conservative ideology eminating from the individual. What's religion have to do with it?

It is confusing though as so many want to impose Christian or moral arguments on a defense of their political positions. I think they do themselves a dis-service in that regard. If one has to quote scripture or look to a priest or pastor for political guidance, there's an evidence of inherant weakness in the appeal to logic of the platform.

This weakness pervades neo-con liberalism. It's confounding. It's not conservative. It's not liberal. It's not religion. It's frankly an insulting bastardization of all of the above.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by RANT
some advocate (and even attempt) the execution of
health clinic workers for infringing on the right's of the fetus
Those who attempt to murder abortionists
are wrong, both legally and morally. Oh ... abortion
doesn't equal health care, but that's an arguement
for a different thread.

your party is obviously in opposition to
you on the death penalty component.

Mostly. Most people I know who are Republican
and who are Democrat are anti-death penalty.
Perhaps it's just the crowd I hang around with.

The question the author of this thread posted was -
'Why are so many anti-abortionists also anti-life?'

I could flip that around to ask this -
'Why are so many pro-choice activists anti-choice for
the unborn child?

Or I could ask this -
'Why are so many anti-death penalty activists pro-death
penalty for unborn children?

or this -
'Why are so many anti-life-for-the-innocent-unborn-children
activists really pro-life for convicted murders?

boggles the mind.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
boggles the mind.


Not at all. As I've been trying to explain (poorly I guess) the pro-life people aren't really all pro-life.

Some are, like you. But most are just pro-individual and want your vote the same as they want the death penalty votes.

It's simple really.

As for liberals being pro-choice and anti-death penalty (as some are), there's no conflict there either. They're pro-society. Greater good. Worrying about every zygote and stem cell is a rather ridiculous waste of energy, intellect and resources when the philosophical mission is far greater.

Liberals want to protect people from the first breathe on; Conservatives want to protect people until their first breathe, then you're on you own.

That's it really. That one sentence.

[edit on 11-3-2005 by RANT]



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan


So I can't say that I see a connection between
anti-abortion and pro-death penalty. There may well be one, but
someone will have to post some stats on it because, in my life, I don't
see it.



One connection I see is the desire to see guilty people 'punished' for their mistakes.....(while that is not the only 'tenent' of an anti-abortion position, 'blame' for the 'getting pregnant' is often mentioned).....

I do know those that manage to be anti-abortion and yet pro-death penalty....(Remember, GWB also manages to be both)

The problem I have with the death penalty is that it is imposed by fallible humans who are not always right......there will be a number of wrongly accused persons who end up on death row, and once the sentence is carried out there is no reversing it.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 12:45 PM
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Well I can't say I am anti-abortion in the political sense.

I believe it to be wrong to kill your own child, however, I also at this point do not believe that this is a matter the government should get involved in.

I am pro death penalty, because I believe that a person who has proven to be guilty of a crime such as murder should suffer the greatest punishment.

To me, the pro-life/pro-death penalty comes down to a simple belief in life. It is wrong to kill an unborn child who has not even had the opertunity to harm any other person - that child should be allowed to live it's life. It is also wrong to let someone who rapes and murders to be allowed to continue their life - they have proven to be harmfull to the world.

As far as 'pro-war' goes, that is just silly. I do not believe that there are any people in their right minds who are PRO-war. There are those of us, however, who realise that the alternative to war is worse then war it's self in the long term.

Oh and by the way - no organised religion for me.



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