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posted on Mar, 14 2005 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Mahree
Here is the part you missed.

"Oh ... but make sure you go to confession before going to
Holy Communion to receive Christ. Because if you go to the Lord's
Table without first confessing your sins, then you bring abomination
upon your soul and you are back to not getting into heaven. "


You must take instruction in the Catholic Church before you can take part in the Sacraments. Catholic Christians do believe in God the Father, Jesus our Savior and the Holy Spirit.

It takes a long time to be ready to receive the Sacraments. Here we learn the importance of a good confession and then the forgiveness of God. Then we can partake of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. (The Eucharist)


Thanks Mahree. I'd only been to a Catholic church a few times so that's why I was asking. Is this also true for Orthodox and Episcopal? How about Protestant churchs, they do practice the bread and 'wine' tradition as well.

[edit on 11-3-2005 by saint4God]


The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: page 394:1411. "Only validly ordained priests can preside at the Eucharist and consecrate the bread and the wine so that they become the Body and Blood of the Lord."

page 316: 1120" ......The ordained priest hood guarantees that it really is Christ who acts in the sacraments through the Holy Spirit for the Church. The saving mission entrusted by the Father to his incarnate Son was committed to the apostles and through them to their successors: they receive the Spirit of Jesus to act in his name and in his person. The ordained minister is the sacramental bond that ties the liturgical action to what the apostles said and did and, through them, to the words and actions of Christ, the source and foundation of the sacraments."

Now the rest of this explanation comes out of my head, just what I am remembering about the history. The priest is ordained by the "laying on of hands" The Catholic Church believes that the power came from Jesus to the Apostles and then down through the years to bishops and priests by the "laying on of hands."

Now I hope to answer your question.
The Orthodox Church is like the eastern wing of the Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church is like the western wing of the Catholic Church. So all of these priests have been validly ordained and can consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus.

The difference between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Church is that the Orthodox Church does not follow the teaching of the Pope.

After the reformation I believe there were a few validly ordained Episcopal priests and this has been passed down through the years. So...not all Episcopal priests can consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus.
I believe to the other Christian sects formed after the reformation the use of the "body and blood" is only a symbol of the last supper.

Hope this makes sense to you. Please ask me to clear up anything that I have missed.

[edit on 3/14/2005 by Mahree]




posted on Mar, 14 2005 @ 11:30 AM
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Thanks Mahree, much appreciated. It did answer my question. I also made note of the difference between doctrine and scripture. I hadn't realized there was one until coming to ATS.



posted on Mar, 14 2005 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Thanks Mahree, much appreciated. It did answer my question. I also made note of the difference between doctrine and scripture. I hadn't realized there was one until coming to ATS.


I'm not sure I know just what you mean. I believe that "doctrine" is based in "scripture". It could be that "doctrine" is the way the Catholic Church has interpreted scripture. And that came with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.



posted on Mar, 14 2005 @ 02:14 PM
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Excellent synopses!


Originally posted by RANTChristians will say ...God has literally impregnated a 13 year old Virgin and come to walk among us and let us kill Him for our own good. These radical concepts, common Sunday school dogma now, are quite scoffable in the proper context.
I would like to expound on that. He impregnated Mary to conceive himself, to walk among men, to pray to himself, beg for mercry from himself and still have himself killed. When all was said and done he managed to morph from one entity into three.


And why did Jesus need to save us again? Once it was so we could stop the blood sacrifice of animals... but when that no longer made sense, it was to save us from a concept invented 400 years after his death. Original Sin.
They don't quite know yet, the circular logic has yet to find teh straight and narrow path to salvation. For if he died to save us from that original sin, then it should be over and done with, but somehow it still is being passed on to every generation where on your first breath you are a sinner, need to be baptised to cleanse that sin again, and accept Jesus to be saved again.


It's evolving. It's been added to, both in word and meaning. And continues to be done so today.
Yes the Trinity has now become in some circles the quadrinity, and looks to be pushing toward a mother-son duality.



posted on Mar, 14 2005 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by Mahree
I'm not sure I know just what you mean. I believe that "doctrine" is based in "scripture". It could be that "doctrine" is the way the Catholic Church has interpreted scripture. And that came with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.


I used the word doctrine and scripture interchangeably here once and someone 'blew the whistle' for doing so. It wasn't until I looked up the definitions did I realize they were not one in the same. Scripture is written in the Bible, doctrine is what the church writes or teaches. I think they should be one in the same, but I'm finding variations as we go in my education. Whether it's Holy Spirit guided or not I cannot say. It parallels the question on the Council of Nicea, but that's on another thread.


[edit on 14-3-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 07:27 AM
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saint4god - Catholics have Sacred Tradition in addition to Sacred Scripture.
Sacred Tradition has been handed down for thousands of years and follows
the scripture teachings -

1 Cor 11:2 - 'Maintain the traditions .. even as I have delivered them to you'

2 Thes 2:15 - ' Hold to the traditions ... taught ... by word of mouth or by letter'.

2 Thes 3:6 - 'the tradition that you received from us.'

There are others, but you get the idea.



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
saint4god - Catholics have Sacred Tradition in addition to Sacred Scripture.
Sacred Tradition has been handed down for thousands of years and follows
the scripture teachings -

1 Cor 11:2 - 'Maintain the traditions .. even as I have delivered them to you'

2 Thes 2:15 - ' Hold to the traditions ... taught ... by word of mouth or by letter'.

2 Thes 3:6 - 'the tradition that you received from us.'

There are others, but you get the idea.


I'm good to go for that
. I've no problem with Biblical tradition. In fact, I think we need to bring our holidays back to holydays as intended. I think the difference is between the last supper bread breaking and wine drinking being a transformation or a tradition. I always thought it was clear when Jesus spoke what was to be taken literally and what was a parable however I'm discovering in this one instance it's not as clear to me. I'm tending to lean on this being a tradition since he said, "...do this in rememberance of me." (Luke 22:19). I'm interested in hearing more about the topic.



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 11:00 AM
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saint4god - Transubstantiation v symbol ... what the church fathers said -
www.catholic.com...



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
saint4god - Transubstantiation v symbol ... what the church fathers said -
www.catholic.com...


Thanks for the link. I think it was very respectfully done. I think even moreso is John 6:35:

"Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."


Some interesting things to note I think:

- The crowd following this verse does question if they're supposed to take a bite out of him. Interesting responses in all. Also, Jesus' followers were many, yet they did not join him at the dinner table. What of them?

- He says he is the bread whereas you will never go hungry or thirsty. If this were physical, are you never physically hungry or thirsty after one eurcharist?

- It says everyone who "looks to", not partakes or eats.

- After looking to the son and believing, that is what gives eternal life and will be raised up on the last day.



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by dancer
The born Again Christians are big on saving souls, and it is a very nobel undertaking, but is it Really a requirement that one be "Saved" before one can enter Heaven?
Or is being a good and kind person enough?


Oh, don't I love those Born Again Christians. I really enjoy how a bunch of people who had been baptized because they felt like they "Found God" a year and a half ago want to try to "save" me.

Um, the fact that I am a practicing Roman Catholic and have been for the last 20 years didn't even cross their minds. Also, apparently, "Catholicism isn't a religion," even though it's been around for, oh, let me think...2000 YEARS!!!!

I think that it's stupid to "save" someone. A person's religious beliefs are their own and people have to follow their own path, and other people have no right to try to force their beliefs down other's throats. If you try to live your life the best you can and attempt to be a good person, it really doesn't matter if you worship the old sock in your basement or the "One True God"



posted on Mar, 15 2005 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by toechopper
If you try to live your life the best you can and attempt to be a good person, it really doesn't matter if you worship the old sock in your basement or the "One True God"


Did ya bend the spine of that Book of yours? I thought in Catholic churches they mention how this works on Sunday mornings.

[edit on 15-3-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Some interesting things to note I think:

Nice quotes. I understand what you are getting at, however
I fully believe that Christ is present body, blood, soul, and divinity
in the Eucharist. I am absolutely sure of it. Scripture, Sacred Tradition,
and the Eucharistic Miracles that I posted .. not to mention God moving
in my heart in an undeniable way .. all tell me so.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 08:30 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by saint4God
Some interesting things to note I think:

Nice quotes. I understand what you are getting at, however
I fully believe that Christ is present body, blood, soul, and divinity
in the Eucharist. I am absolutely sure of it. Scripture, Sacred Tradition,
and the Eucharistic Miracles that I posted .. not to mention God moving
in my heart in an undeniable way .. all tell me so.


I believe Christ is present too by soul, divinity but in a way we as humans are unable to comprehend, present also in 'body' and 'blood'. I know what you mean about being moved undenialby in the heart. Could we be experiencing the same thing?


[edit on 16-3-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by toechopper

If you try to live your life the best you can and attempt to be a good person, it really doesn't matter if you worship the old sock in your basement or the "One True God"



You can't earn or work your way to heaven. Salvation is only found when you put your trust/faith/confidence/belief in what Christ has already done. He paid the price we could never pay, the wrath of God was poured out upon our sin when it was placed on Him. Salvation is found only in Jesus Christ. True acceptance of this fact brings about a change in one's life.

It really does matter if you worship a sock or the One True God, your everlasting eternal destiny is determined by what you believe.



posted on Mar, 16 2005 @ 11:18 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
You can't earn or work your way to heaven. Salvation is only found when you put your trust/faith/confidence/belief in what Christ has already done.
And you derive this doctrine from where and whom?

If your answer is not Augustine, then you fail the test.



posted on Mar, 17 2005 @ 06:48 AM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by dbrandt
You can't earn or work your way to heaven. Salvation is only found when you put your trust/faith/confidence/belief in what Christ has already done.
And you derive this doctrine from where and whom?

If your answer is not Augustine, then you fail the test.


That is what God has revealed. Eternal life is a free gift that only needs to be accepted. This puts everyone on equal ground and lets everyone have a chance.





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