Must you be "Saved" ?

Since I didn't see/notice this topic, and it seemed to be a fruitful discussion I will ask:

The born Again Christians are big on saving souls, and it is a very nobel undertaking, but is it Really a requirement that one be "Saved" before one can enter Heaven?
Or is being a good and kind person enough?

If it is required; do people who died before Christ get a pardon from God as they were not offered the opportunity to be saved?

I am currious to see the variety of understandings regarding this.

Exactly what conspiracy is this?

I think the religion you belong to is irrelevant when you die. You don't have to be a christian and be "saved" to get into heaven, that's total BS. Do you think God would take in a "born again" Christian man who murdered 10 people, or a non-religious good person who did things for others and lived a good, honest life? Christians just use the "saved" thing to feel special, i guess. It's quite ignorant though, really.

I put forth the proposition that such is a conspiracy implemented by Christians to attain and control members.

"Belive that if you are not saved, you will surely suffer the pains of hell"

If the threat of eternal damnation is not a control/conspiricy to control I don't know what would be.

The issue of control - actual vs percived - as implemented by various belief systems.

in terms of the Christian belief you must believe that Jesus was the son of God and died for your sins, and you must develop a relationship with Jesus through prayer in order to enter into heaven.

What about those (non-Christians) who belive that Christ was a very enlightened individual, a great roll model, and the Apex of a belief system - however Still man?

Fair enough


Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Originally posted by Kwintz
I think the religion you belong to is irrelevant when you die. You don't have to be a christian and be "saved" to get into heaven, that's total BS. Do you think God would take in a "born again" Christian man who murdered 10 people, or a non-religious good person who did things for others and lived a good, honest life? Christians just use the "saved" thing to feel special, i guess. It's quite ignorant though, really.

Yes, actually he would if that person repented. Many are called FEW are chosen. One must be "born again" even Christ was!

I think the religion you belong to is irrelevant when you die. You don't have to be a christian and be "saved" to get into heaven, that's total BS.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


If you are going to go to heaven, there is only one way. A narrow gate that few will find because of all the false teachers and the desires of their own hearts

Originally posted by dancer
is it Really a requirement that one be "Saved" before
one can enter Heaven?

Here's an 'eternal life' requirement for ya' -

John 6 51 - Jesus said 'I am the living bread which
comes down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will
live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the
world is my flesh.'

then Jesus backs this up with John 6 53-56 -
So Jesus said to them, 'truly, truly, I say to you, unless you
eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have
no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has
eternal life, and I will raise him up o on the last day. For my
flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who
eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.

Those are very clear instructions. VERY clear. You have to eat
the flesh and drink the blood of Christ to have eternal life. At
this point only the Catholics, Orthodox, and some Episcopalians
have transubstantiation in their worship services. Guess that
means ya'll have to become Catholic, Orthodox or perhaps
Episcopalian to get to heaven.

Oh ... but make sure you go to confession before going to
Holy Communion to receive Christ. Because if you go to the Lord's
Table without first confessing your sins, then you bring abomination
upon your soul and you are back to not getting into heaven.

Not sure of the bible quote on that one ... It's there ...
I'll look it up and get back to you with it.

How's THAT for a requirement? There are bunches.... just gotta'
read the scriptures.

hmmm....considering that you are taking it as literally as you are, FlyersFan, that would mean that everyone would have to resort to Cannibalism. And that is AFTER Christ's body can be found. Not an easy task considering that Christ is supposed to have been taken up into heaven.
I doubt Jesus actually meant you have to "eat" him. I think it is more of a symbollic representations of having to accept Jesus's teachings so the he can "abide in you".

oh please, lets not get into a holy supper argument. If anything that is one of the big ones that seperate many churches. It is symbolic with the word, of his body and blood and a PHYSICAL reminder of our forgiveness of sins, and of life ever lasting.

A good way to Think of it, is to think of it as medicine.

as dar as being saved, in order for you to attain salvation in heaven, you must believe in the savior Jesus christ, who died for all of us on the cross, as a sacrifice to end all sacrifices

Originally posted by babloyi
I doubt Jesus actually meant you have to "eat" him.

Nope. He said 'Amen, Amen I say to you ...' Christ was VERY
clear. Gotta' eat His body and drink His blood. The Catholics,
Orthodox, and some Episcopalians claim transubstantiation in
their worship services. Well ... the Episcopalians claim con-
transubstantiation .. that the host is both bread AND Christ
whereas the Catholics and Orthodox say it is fully Christ without
any bread present.

After Christ gave this teaching to his followers, many left him
saying that it was too hard to listen to. Christ didn't stop them
from leaving. He never said 'hey, I was talking metaphorically or
symbolically'. He just let them leave and he kept his teaching
as it was.

Since the author of this thread wanted to discuss what is
necessary to get into heaven (via what the Bible says), I thought
I'd put this forth. There are lots of things the bible says 'MUST'
be done to get to heaven. How many of them do people actually do?
Are the people that don't do them not going to heaven?

We went to Venezuela back in 1994 and we viewed this
Eucharistic miracle. It was behind glass, but we clearly saw
the blood stain. Here's a film of it actually happening...
www.monksofadoration.org...

Eucharistic Miracle of LancianoThe story of the Eucharistic Miracle that
happened in Lanciano, Italy in the 8th Century AD. ... Taken from the
Eucharistic Miracle Page of Lanciano. ...

www.therealpresence.org...

Apparitions and Eucharistic MiraclesApparitions and Eucharistic Miracles
. ...

www.christusrex.org...

Eucharistic Miracles Art GalleryEucharistic Miracles Art Gallery. ...
The blood type as in all other approved Eucharistic miracles is type
AB. Histological micrographs are shown. ...

www.... biblia.com/jesusart/eucharistic.htm

www.acfp2000.com...

Eucharistic Miracle of SantaremEucharistic Miracles known to still exist.
Scientifically still verifiable. Financial Assistance requested. The Eucharistic
Miracle of Santarem. 13th Century AD ...

www.trosch.org...



[edit on 3/10/2005 by FlyersFan]

I've always wondered if the Kalahari Bushmen and Australian aborigines and other "primitive" peoples could go to heaven under the Christian beliefs. They may have led perfect lives unimpeded by greed and hatred, yet even though they have never heard the word "Jesus" they can't get into heaven? It's never quite made sense to me, so if I'm wrong please correct me.

Of course, this is all assuming there even IS an afterlife.

I put forth the proposition that such is a conspiracy implemented by Christians to attain and control members.

I would say that would apply to all religions, in one form or
another.

I don't think it is necessarily a christian thing.

My thoughts anyway

[edit on 10-3-2005 by madhatter]

I stepped out in front of a moving bus once. My girlfriend pulled me back. I didn't die. I got saved. Did I need to get saved, no not really but I am glad I did.

Originally posted by FlyersFan


Here's an 'eternal life' requirement for ya' -

John 6 51 - Jesus said 'I am the living bread which
comes down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will
live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the
world is my flesh.'

then Jesus backs this up with John 6 53-56 -
So Jesus said to them, 'truly, truly, I say to you, unless you
eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have
no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has
eternal life, and I will raise him up o on the last day. For my
flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who
eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.

I am curious, does only the Gospel of John talk about this flesh eating and blood drinking thing or is this mentioned in other Gospels too?

Originally posted by Jehosephat
It is symbolic with the word, of his body and blood and a PHYSICAL reminder of our forgiveness of sins, and of life ever lasting.

I appreciate the 'let's not get into it' ... BUT .... it isn't symbolic.

It's real. Many Christians have this as an element of
their Christian faith. You MUST partake of the communion,
which has gone through transubstantiation, to get to heaven.
It's word for word what the bible says. (no, I don't believe
you have to do this to get to heaven, but the point is the bible
says you must)

Also, take a look at the eucharistic miracles that I have linked to
previously. That's not symbolic. That's real flesh and blood that
the eucharist has turned to - supernaturally.

My putting this information on this thread was for a point.

The point being .... people who claim to be bible christians say
they believe in the whole bible. They say you must be 'saved'
to get to heaven because the bible says so. Well ... there are
many other things that the bible says you must do to get to
heaven, but many people become cafeteria christians when it
comes to them. They pick the 'accept Christ as your savior'
part and they say 'okay, that's my ticket' .. but they forget the
many many other things the bible says, such as Jesus DIRECT
words about eatting his flesh and drinking his blood. He wasn't
speaking in a parable, he wasn't being symbolic (he would have
said so and cleared up the ruckess that followed this teaching),
he was being very direct.

There are other things the bible says you MUST do to get to heaven.
There are other things the bible says you must not do too.
If folks claim to accept the bible entotal as God's Word, then
they should be accepting ALL these demands. ALL. Not just the
'accept Christ and be saved' one.

Originally posted by paperclip
I am curious, does only the Gospel of John talk about this
flesh eating and blood drinking thing or is this mentioned
in other Gospels too?

Mostly John. Here is what I have about Christ being present
in the Holy Communion. (get your bible out)

Christ actually present in -
Matthew 26:26, Mark 14:22, Luke 22:19,
John 35, 41, 51-58
1 Cor 11:27-29

Source of divine life -
John 6:27, 33, 50, 51, 58
1 Cor 11:30

John is the one place that it really gets down and talks directly
about eatting the flesh and drinking the blood. Christ is very clear.
He doesn't say 'this is a symbol' and he doesn't go and correct the
people who walked away and tell them that he is just talking
symboliclly. He is very direct about it.

Check the links I provided earlier about Eucharistic Miracles. There
are plenty in Europe for you to visit. I went and saw one in
Venezuela. I provided a link that shows a movie of it happening.

I think heavan and hell are found within onlesself and not simply something you go to after you die.