Why don't YOU believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God?

If the subject didn't pain so many, to respond with such effort seems ironic. I believe jammer did not accuse anyone of anything. Nor did he accuse anyone of believing falsely or being against God(anti-christ).

Originally posted by Toltec
Actually Colonel there was a discussion held here some time ago between myself and a member called truth. In which he made clear that maintaining a moral code, as for example the Negative Confession in the Egyptian Book of the Dead was not something that would actually place one in disfavor, which does seem to
make a lot of sense.

The point is does one adhere to an ethical system which for all intent and purpose precludes one from acting to harm others and or to covet (being very General here).

Taking such a standard into consideration even an Atheist could be allowed into heaven, as long as his actions were ethical and moral within the generally
defined parameters of these terms.

Any thoughts?

Obviously not Colonel, but if I may?

Is what you speak about the Philosopher's creed so to speak? It basically is Athiest and places no moral limit on Man; by this I mean, there is no accountability to any authority higher than man, since there is no higher authority!?

One can be moral up to the second one dies and not be saved.

2cents

Originally posted by Tyriffic
If the subject didn't pain so many, to respond with such effort seems ironic. I believe jammer did not accuse anyone of anything. Nor did he accuse anyone of believing falsely or being against God(anti-christ).

Thank you Tyriffic. Well stated.

Peace,
~Jammer

...keep your sword up...

And I quote....

Truth States

Now i tell you exactly what our church teaches from the 1954 catechisms own words on this matter.

1954 baltimore catechasim

page 141....

" Can they be saved who remain outside the catholic church because they do not know it is the true church "

"" Those who do not know it is the true church, can be saved by making uses by the grace god gives you. God condemns no man except for grave sin. Therefore
he will not condemn those who through no fault of their own are unaware of his commands to belong to the true church, provided they serve him (faithfully) according to their own (conscience). Have a sincere desire to do his will in all things, and therefore implicitly wish to become members of his church. They are members of the church in desire ""

"" It (is) possible for one that has never even heard of jesus christ to be saved. In order for such a one may be saved, it is required that he observe the natural law; with help of god, everyone having the use of reason can do that ""

Any Thoughts?

I will try to keep this response simple since the sheep seem to have lost their way yet again.

The initial question/premise of this post was, "If you reject Christ, I want to know why? and How? Please share." Now take a look at the responses from jammerman. There is no interest to learn...it's a false premise. Why is that so hard to understand? His very first response in this thread was, "gee, that's too bad, now let me save you from you." There was no attempt to gain a better understanding. That was never his intension when devising this thread. Comprende?

Like I said, I really don't object to someone attempting to convert another or preach to them. What I do object to, is somebody feigning interest in the reasons why someone believes/thinks a certain way when the real motive is solely to identify those reasons as a basis for conversion. It's a subtle point and it's not what keeps me up at night, but if you're going to try to sit there and tell me that what I am saying is not true, that's where I will step in and shine the light for you.


Fasle premise of this post = What/why do you think?

Disguised/true premise of this post = Here is what i think and why you should too.

Pretty easy to follow. Now let's see if we can avoid the "Jesus will make you pay," responses (Colonel
& Tyriffic - yes, we non-believers are very frightened) and keep on point.

fixx

Originally posted by Toltec
And I quote....

...


Any Thoughts?

That seems reasonable, those who never heard of Christ should be saved and I think if they were good persons God will surely save them.

However, we can never be 100% sure

[Edited on 13-7-2003 by Megaquad]

Originally posted by phoenix_cross
So your basically saying that for every action that Man has taken resulting in "war and destruction" that ultimately G-d is responsible and needs to look at "all this blood on His hands?"

Perchance, maybe we, Man, need to look at the blood that is, indeed, on our hands and of our own doings maybe

if god were real, he wouldn't let wars be fought in his name, that's all i'm sayin. i'll be back in august

PC, you said: "If God were real, He wouldn't let wars be fought in His name, thats all I'm saying."

God has nothing to do with wars fought in His name. That is, again, a "tool" used by Man, to "justify" war, killing, destruction, etc. God is real, count on it, He is, after all, unavoidable. But as was my first response to you, the same applies here, you first equated God as being responsible for the wars and destruction, thus, the "blood on His hands." That is false and will always be false. Wars and destruction are "tools" of Man, not God. This further goes to justify the premise that the real blood on anyones hands is, in fact and truth, on the our hands....Man's hands.

You now say "If God was real", He wouldn't allow wars, etc., to be carried out in His name. Again, this is not of His doing, nor resposibility. War is a "tool" of Man, using God's name to "justify" it, further equates to a "tool" used by Man to "justify" war, etc. God, in no way, no how, is ultimatley responsible nor is obligated to "step in" because His name is invoked.......its amounts to a mockery of God in truth.

Man is responsible and ultimately the responsibility "holder". The blood is deep and indeed pours........from our hands, from the hands of those who are truly responsible.....Man: you, me, he, she, it, they, humankind, Mankind. Just joking with ya PC, but my toilet overflowed last night and I'm justified to believe that "if God was real", that its His fault...correct?!?

Needless to say, I pulled my nephews ball out, that caused the toilet to overflow, and verbally corrected him. And thanked God that it wasn't something else more serious.

I forgot to say this, hence my edit: looking forward to your return, friend. You will be missed and I hope your return is a quick one. Be safe in Germany and have fun...beautiful place and great peeps. Peace and be safe.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 13-7-2003 by Seekerof]

[Edited on 13-7-2003 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by jammermanIf you reject Christ, I want to know why?

I don't like his dad

family history is a little fuzzy and full of death and destruction

(hmm... not unlike Bush )

Originally posted by jammerman

I am saddened by all the people I meet who are turned off or closed off to Jesus Christ. Many of them have been damaged by the church, particularily the roman catholic church.

Why does this sadden me? Because I don't think people are given a proper perspective on who Christ is and why he came and they are "missing out",... BIG-time.

If you reject Christ, I want to know why? and How?
Please share.

In peace,

~Jammer

WTF????

So basically what you're telling me is that all the people you meet that "you think" have turned away from the Lord are damaged by the Church, namely the Roman Catholic Church; and its� because of our inability to give a "proper perspective" of the Lord?

I'm not even going waste my time trying to point out flaws or quote from religious text because your statement it's so idiotic......

jammerman, you're just full of !!!!...plain and simple........


[Edited on 13-7-2003 by Toltec]

"" It (is) possible for one that has never even heard of jesus christ to be saved. In order for such a one may be saved, it is required that he observe the natural law; with help of god, everyone having the use of reason can do that ""

That is what I've been saying the the start.

Fixx my BS included a course in Logic as well as am I aware of the Marques of Qweesbury rules (sp).

An important point is not if such conclusions are absolute but whether they are consistent.

Hence my point

I do not believe in Jesus coz im not a Christian! Im a Wiccan.


for more on Wicca go to my site at :


www.fortunecity.com...






Blessed Be!

Well, It appears theres lots of theism here mostly influenced by christianity which makes me wonder why talk about concepts such as the anti-christ. Why do you dismiss all other possible gods besides your own, it seems like you seem to have some sort of elementary form of logic. Why not say Anti-Gods, instead of Anti-Christ? I mean, theism is just retarded because it creates these types of discussions.

kindegarten plus grades 1-12 of Catholic school. being a bitter lapsed Catholic has made me wary of all forms of organized religion. there's too much possibility for corruption when people tell other people what to worship.

Originally posted by Toltec
Actually Colonel there was a discussion held here some time ago between myself and a member called truth. In which he made clear that maintaining a moral code, as for example the Negative Confession in the Egyptian Book of the Dead was not something that would actually place one in disfavor, which does seem to
make a lot of sense.

The point is does one adhere to an ethical system which for all intent and purpose precludes one from acting to harm others and or to covet (being very General here).

Taking such a standard into consideration even an Atheist could be allowed into heaven, as long as his actions were ethical and moral within the generally
defined parameters of these terms.

Any thoughts?

I'm gonna have to disagree. Good works, or an ethical moral code, does not get you into Heaven. The only way is to believe that Jesus, the Son of God, died for your sins.

If you disbelieve this, you are, in effect, calling God a liar---not matter how "good" you are, this affront will bar you from the Kingdom of Heaven. Just my thoughts.

I ask this.....If you were never told about god through the bible, priest, your parents ,etc. would you still believe? and why?

The way I see it is that people are taught to believe in god....it's been that way for many years. Heck back in the day you were killed if you didn't believe. So if you never ever heard about god or the jesus you would not believe.

God doesnt exist, neither do heaven or hell. There are people who believe that if you dont believe in Allah that you are going to suffer eternally, and there are people who believe if you dont believe in Yahweh you will suffer eternally, and it goes on and on with people of all faith threatening others with some supernatural consequence for disbelieving their claims about which they know nothing. If you were born somewhere else, it is highly likely that you wouldnt believe the way in which you do now, which is attributed to the place you were born.

This in effect is called theism, essentially stating: "My God has a bigger dick than your God." It is a severely distressing and detrimental aspect to humanities social and mental progression. If we cannot overcome this irrationality, we are indeed doomed.

Completely agree with you AnarchistSuperstar.

Originally posted by AnarchistSuperstar
God doesnt exist, neither do heaven or hell. There are people who believe that if you dont believe in Allah that you are going to suffer eternally, and there are people who believe if you dont believe in Yahweh you will suffer eternally, and it goes on and on with people of all faith threatening others with some supernatural consequence for disbelieving their claims about which they know nothing. If you were born somewhere else, it is highly likely that you wouldnt believe the way in which you do now, which is attributed to the place you were born.

This in effect is called theism, essentially stating: "My God has a bigger dick than your God." It is a severely distressing and detrimental aspect to humanities social and mental progression. If we cannot overcome this irrationality, we are indeed doomed.

You haven't answered the question oh "mighty hunter of gods"..........
If believing in a God is irrational; is not believing in a God rational?

Your like a big dog, all bark and no bite.....grab a chewbone and chill. Your sounding like a broken record reading your mindless protests in persuit of telling everyone how you don't believe in Theism, etc.

regards
seekerof