Why don't YOU believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God?

Originally posted by goregrinder
In response to your comments directed at me, jammerman, take a second to step back and conclude on who the marketable sheep is here; you. As long as you practice the disgusting, evil ritual of shoving your beliefs down other peoples throat (as you christians, muslims, and jews have done for countless years) I have no kind words for you. By being your own god i simply meant taking responsibility over yourself and grabbing the reigns of your destiny. I think Aeneas said it best "Noli me tangere", let nothing touch me, when he meant to escape the curses of the men he had slain in battle. I would use this in reference to your disgusting religious practice which i relate to a communicable disease.

Wow!! Somebody did you wrong!

I'm sorry you feel that I am "shoving my beliefs down your throat." That is certainly not my intention. I'm simply sharing my beliefs and asking people to share theirs in an open and honest fashion. Don't take it so personal.

What happened to you that makes you SOOO ANGRY? Certainly this thread didn't do THAT! Tell us your story. Share your experience with us. I want to understand.

I will pray for you.

In peace,

~Jammer

people like you is what is happening to the world. Nothing happened to me. I was raised in a good home that had good morales and values. i just think it sucks that people like you can come here thinking you're going to change peoples minds or whatever your original objectives were. The root of the problems in this world come from people trying to impose their beliefs upon others. think about that one, your holiness.

Goregrinder:

If this thread upsets you so much and you're not interested in hearing about other people's beliefs and such, why are you in this section? Why do you bother to post?

I'm trying to open an honest discussion on a very important subject (to most people anyway) and I'm not simply sitting here telling everyone who doesn't believe what I believe is going to hell or the like. I am asking people to share their experiences and thoughts on this subject. I'm still waiting to hear what your experiences have been that have made you reject Christ so vehemently. If you don't want to share, that's fine too. But lets try to be civil and constructive here. Please.

In peace,

~Jammer

Didnt God call Adam and Enoch is son too? Early Christians rejected the Trinity because they were smart.

Jesus was a son of God, just like all the other prophets.

Originally posted by jammerman
I have one question for you... Why do you say, "I can't convert"? What does this mean to you? Could you elaborate on what and why? Thanks.

Well, I was basically saying that whatever someone says, someone who hasn't had any kind of experience with God will never believe you, even if they want you to. I can't convert people, I can just say what I know and think.

I know this because my girlfriend really wants to believe in God, but she's still a bit sceptical because she hasn't had any "experiences"........well, she has, but she's like Scully on the X- Files, , using logic for everything.....

Until something amazes them enough, someone who doesn't believe in God will never be "converted". Well, thats my opinion anyway

Jammerman,

You masked this thread as an attempt to better understand why people reject christ when really all you wanted your shot at telling them why they are wrong. I think that's what's got folks like me and gore a little edgy with this thread. We've been preached to our entire lives about this fairy tale that you so firmly believe in. If you want to start a thread asking why we don't believe in it, fine. Just don't be shocked that if after you start trying to "open our eyes," you get a little flak back.

fixx

I think everyone can be converted if you pray for him (a lot).

Originally posted by fixx
Jammerman,

You masked this thread as an attempt to better understand why people reject christ when really all you wanted your shot at telling them why they are wrong. I think that's what's got folks like me and gore a little edgy with this thread. We've been preached to our entire lives about this fairy tale that you so firmly believe in. If you want to start a thread asking why we don't believe in it, fine. Just don't be shocked that if after you start trying to "open our eyes," you get a little flak back.

fixx

Fair enough Fixx. However, don't I have any rights here as well? Am I not allowed to address people's misconceptions with my perspective? Isn't that the point of all this anyway? I will honestly tell you that I expect to get as much out of this as any of the rest of you. I'm constantly trying to find out what God has planned for me and I'm open to listening to what other's have to say. I am also willing to offer my views and opinions. That's all they are. I appreciate your feedback though and some of it is expected. I just hope that people can be both honest and tackful when adding to the conversation.

In peace,

~Jammer

To look at the title of this thread it seems apparent that the intent of the author was to present the question from the context of someone who has this faith.

I see no real effort at trickery.


My question Jammerman is a social one while we know there are such things as bad policemen, bad clergymen ect..... I think a very real problem is that the actions of individuals do ultimately reflect upon the whole.

Take for example that you are late for a meeting and as a result rather than driving at the posted speed limit, you are exceeding it by about 20mph per hour. Without any warning you hear the sound of a siren, you look in your rearview mirror and a police car is right behind you.

For that moment when you first realize your being asked to pull over most peoples first reaction is a heart clenching fear. The question being why so much fear? All it means is your going to get a ticket, points on your license unless you take a class.

I think the fear comes to mind initially because of bad cops (they can kill you and get away with it) and the idea applies to any institution where individuals can do real harm to people who are innocent.

Keep in mind the issue for me is not Jesus Christ.

Any thoughts?

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Didnt God call Adam and Enoch is son too? Early Christians rejected the Trinity because they were smart.

Jesus was a son of God, just like all the other prophets.

Illmatic, I understand what you are saying, but please....there is quite a bit of significance when the word son is expressed as this: 'son' and 'Son'.

Example:
"And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, :You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased." Luke 3:22

as compared to this:
"the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mathalalel, the son of Cainan, (38) the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." Luke 3:37-38

In virtually every instance that the word: son is applied to reference of Jesus, it is used as thus: 'Son'. Big difference, implying that Jesus was the Son of God, not 'son' fo God......'Son'.

As to "early Christians rejecting the Trinty cause they were smart"...how so? What is defined as 'smart'?

In absolutes there is no experience, there is only knowing. Knowing is a divine state, yet the grandest or greatest joy is in being. Being is achieved only after experience. The evolution is this: knowing, experiencing, being. This is the Holy Trinity---the Triune that is God.
God the Father is knowing.
God the Son is experiencing.
God the Holy Spirit is being.

All this culminating into this:
That which gives rise to.
That which is risen.
That which is.

The Triune Reality is God's signature. It is the divine pattern. The three-in-one is everywhere found in the realms of the sublime. We cannot escape it in matters dealing with Time and Space, God and consciousness, or any of the subtle relationships.

All in all, Illmatic, we only choose to see what we only truly wish to see, correct?

regards
seekerof


[Edited on 12-7-2003 by Seekerof]

Toltec,

What do you think jammers motives were in making his initial post? Do you really believe that his chief interest is in finding out why some folks are non-believers? No, this is just another attempt by a religioso to come in and tell the non-believers why they are wrong. I have no problem with that normally, but when you put up a facade of being a guy who just wants to learn when your ultimate motive is to preach, I think that's bogus.

Seems to me religious people are incapable of just listening and learning from non-believers (which at first glance is what you would believe the pupose of this thread to be). Their chief goal is to identify the target and try to convert.

When was the last time an athiest or agnostic showed up on your doorstep trying to convince you that there is no god? You want to preach? Go for it. Just don't be shocked when some people don't take kindly to it especially when it's not something they asked for or anticipated. Non-believers have had to put up with this for millenia and until you know what that feels like, you (not you toltec, but those who would) have no right to poo poo our response to it.

fixx

Atheism per say is not really a religion and as far as Agnostics.....

Main Entry: [1]ag�nos�tic
Pronunciation: ag-'n�s-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know �more at KNOW
Date: 1869
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
- ag�nos�ti�cism /-t&-"si-z&m/ noun

Pronunciation Key

� 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy

As the definition presents there is nothing to talk
about.

When a person is presenting an idea or concept they think is correct one cannot help but respond to same as something of value, in other words one preaches...

to urge acceptance or abandonment of an idea or course of action; specifically: to exhort in an officious or tiresome manner

That does not make it wrong for that matter it does not make it right either, what it does make it is something to discuss.

What would yu do if Jesus did show up? Say, "Oh, wait, um, I made a mistake. Gimme a chance. C'mon, man!"

I think it'll be over by then.

Originally posted by fixx
Toltec,

What do you think jammers motives were in making his initial post? Do you really believe that his chief interest is in finding out why some folks are non-believers? No, this is just another attempt by a religioso to come in and tell the non-believers why they are wrong. I have no problem with that normally, but when you put up a facade of being a guy who just wants to learn when your ultimate motive is to preach, I think that's bogus.

Seems to me religious people are incapable of just listening and learning from non-believers (which at first glance is what you would believe the pupose of this thread to be). Their chief goal is to identify the target and try to convert.

When was the last time an athiest or agnostic showed up on your doorstep trying to convince you that there is no god? You want to preach? Go for it. Just don't be shocked when some people don't take kindly to it especially when it's not something they asked for or anticipated. Non-believers have had to put up with this for millenia and until you know what that feels like, you (not you toltec, but those who would) have no right to poo poo our response to it.

fixx

Fixx:
If you're going to accuse me of creating this thread in false pretense, please, by all means show me where I have done so. Some quotes and references to back your allogations would be helpful.
I have posted nothing that I either don't believe is true or in false pretense.

Seems that I'm incabable of listening? That's basically what I've asked for. Why? To discuss it. If you don't like the discussion or feel this is annoying or whatever, why are you even reading in this area of interest? The fact that all of you are in here constitutes either A) a search for something beyond yourself, B) curiousity or C) malicious intent to deface those who wish to participate.

C'mon man, open up an honest discussion about this already. Stick to the main topic or create your own thread; I'm tired of the whining.

~Jammer

Well fixx, let me ask you a question. Is a Christian standing behind you with a gun to your head forcing you the read this thread while you are at your computer?? Is there a Christian standing beside you with a gun forcing you to watch Trinity Brodcasting when your TV is on? I get so tired of you skeptics posting in threads such as these complaining about Christianity being forced down their throats. You entered the discussion on your own; no one forced you to post. As for atheists arriving at my door step, no but I have had atheists get in my face because of my fatih. And I did and said nothing to provoke them. Also I have had very few Christians arrive at my door step. I did have some Jehovah Witnesses, but they are not truly Christian since there are some very basic issues of doctrine. Well jammerman you have really added weight to my Calvinist philosophy. Only God can open the eyes of the blind. Let Him select whom He desires to save. You cannot do it. All your are doing is wasting your time - which can be better spent doing other things for your own edification. These people will believe the most outrageous lies as long as it criticizes the Christian Faith. Lies about history, lies about what the Bible truly says, lies about the tenets of other belief systems such as Buddism. No amount of rebuttable will change their minds. Jammerman if you want to spend some time in edification of yourself, study the life of John Newton - author of Amazing Grace.

Why I reject Christ:

First of all, I must say that I have neither have any traumatic experience concerning Christianity nor have ever had someone actively pushing me against religion.
Also I have allways had a very happy religious childhood, I was raised a catholic christian althou I have never had any of my family members actively pushing christianity INTO me.


Now why I reject christ.

Factor 1: Doubt of God
I have never ever had any sign of God's existence, but more,

Factor 2: Doubt of Christ
would I have ever experienced any kind of supranatural event or sign and maybe atribute it to a God, I find no reason whatsoever to link that God to Christ, as Christ being his son and teaching his word, infact, agnostic as I am, I severely doubt any kind of "bigger" being would be as those described by any religion created by humans,

Factor 3: Self
This said, why would I embrace a religion (christianity) and give up my own ideas for nothing more than a doubt?
Would I even not have antichristian ideas, why would I give up my human potential, why would I give up all the possibilities in life, to which I would be lead by my own self, and thus much more valuable than a religion created by others because of nothing more than a doubt.

I don'0t want to subject my very own valuable self to a strange moral code, to a strange ethical pattern which is what you do when embracing those scriptures, you bow your head, your chain yourself and lose will and your FREEDOM to the orders of some God, or better, the orders of some human saying it is the orders of God.
And yes, you part ways with your freedom, and why? because everything you do, everything you think has previously been filtered by those orders, you say you would never want to do anything that wouldn't be "christian" you say it's because YOU don't want so, I say you only think you don't want to, I say would you not be influenced by those scriptures, by those religious rules and dogma, you'd want to do things you'd never imagine you wanted to, you'll end up thinking (by yourself) things that yould feel guilty about thinking, take your own conclusions. As for me, I think I have slightly started to explain my reasons to reject christ, I don't feel like writing more and I doubt anyone has read through everyting I wrote but if you did, I'm actually glad

If I sound confuse or something that's cause it's 3 O'clock AM here

So your basically saying that for every action that Man has taken resulting in "war and destruction" that ultimately G-d is responsible and needs to look at "all this blood on His hands?"

Perchance, maybe we, Man, need to look at the blood that is, indeed, on our hands and of our own doings maybe

if god were real, he wouldn't let wars be fought in his name, that's all i'm sayin. i'll be back in august

No I am not saying so, (I guess you are refering to my post) what I stated in my poor english is that God and religion are responsible for what you DON'T, do we could strech this and say it would bring a lack of options, but that was never what I said.

I don't forget however many wars started by religion, but GOD doesn't exist and so he isn't to blame for anything, man are to blame, ultimately that's the whole point of my post, God's not to be taken into acount for anything, MAN is, but MAN's opinions about GOD are to be taken into acount when talking about blood and wars (that is your example, I somewhat prefer the philosophical side of life but that's just me)

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Didnt God call Adam and Enoch is son too? Early Christians rejected the Trinity because they were smart.

Jesus was a son of God, just like all the other prophets.

Keep on spreading the lie.
I'm sure when you meet this"prophet" you'll tell him this too.

Actually Colonel there was a discussion held here some time ago between myself and a member called truth. In which he made clear that maintaining a moral code, as for example the Negative Confession in the Egyptian Book of the Dead was not something that would actually place one in disfavor, which does seem to
make a lot of sense.

The point is does one adhere to an ethical system which for all intent and purpose precludes one from acting to harm others and or to covet (being very General here).

Taking such a standard into consideration even an Atheist could be allowed into heaven, as long as his actions were ethical and moral within the generally
defined parameters of these terms.

Any thoughts?