People of Phoenix ~ the time has come

originally posted by: AnodeOrCathode
No one with a brain has ever reported a ufo sighting.

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

originally posted by: AnodeOrCathode
...No one with a brain has ever reported a ufo sighting....

You're gonna get flack from ALL sides of the issue for that [from me, too]-- which I have to assume was just a deliberate cry for attention.

originally posted by: InTheShadows

originally posted by: AnodeOrCathode
No one with a brain has ever reported a ufo sighting.

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Probably true, but if we set the bar as high as that it might eliminate most of the message traffic hereabouts.

Puzzle remains, what new steps can be done to track down, or eliminate, the presence of visiting Canadian pilots overflying the city during the 'first event'?

originally posted by: JimOberg
Puzzle remains, what new steps can be done to track down, or eliminate, the presence of visiting Canadian pilots overflying the city during the 'first event'?

Unfortunately nobody requested the FAA records during the two week period during which they were retained. But the pilot and c-pilot of America West 757 to Las Vegas flying at 17,000 feet asked air traffic control about the 5 white lights in V formation flying just above them.

Air traffic control responded that it was a flight of Canadian CT-144s at 19,000 feet (I think either ATC or the America West crew mixed that up a bit and meant CT-114 which might fit). In addition, a pilot from the formation of five planes said they were Canadian and headed for Davis-Monthan AFB. Look at the squarish wings on the CT-114:

Canadair CT-114 Tutor


The squarish wings of the CT-114 would match the description of squarish wings given by the witness who saw the V-formation through a telescope:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
"Here's Mitch with his telescope:"


"And Mitch's words:"

"It was plain to see. What looked like individual lights to the naked eye actually split into two under the resolving power of the telescope. The lights were located on the undersides of squarish wings."

"They were planes. There's no way I could have mistaken that."

So if someone wanted to try to learn more, they could check to see if the pilots of that America West 757 to Las Vegas flying at 17,000 feet are still alive and if they would be willing to answer some questions, to see if they can shed any more light on the incident.

The pilot's name was Larry Campbell and co-pilot was John Middleton.

To account for the witnesses who said the V-formation "blocked out the stars", one would need to do some research on other cases like the Yukon satellite re-entry which was also said to "block out the stars", which was an illusion and on the subject of "illusory contours" and even on the construction of the human eye and how it can contribute to the "blocking out the stars" illusion.

A-10s have also been mentioned, but I think they were involved in the 2nd event, the "flare drop", discussed here:

Phoenix Lights Explained & Debunked

That features one of the pilots of the A-10s that dropped the flares, and an analysis proving the flares were behind the mountain.

originally posted by: AnodeOrCathode
No one with a brain has ever reported a ufo sighting.

Astronauts, Astronomers, Admirals, Generals, Doctors, Lawyers, Presidents, Police Officers, Pilots… etcetera, etcetera…

Yeah you are right; they are all a bunch of nut cakes.

originally posted by: AnodeOrCathode
Russian spies stick out like a sore thumb in braindead populations like phoenix arizona.

But this… did some guy from Phoenix steal your wife?

There is no proof that it was flares that went behind the mountain.

The lights of a single, large craft going down slowly behind the mountain would look just the same.

The best part of the airliner story was when the pilots flying the airliner said the V was so big they could land on it.

"“It has bothered me a lot, this flare explanation. I lived right directly under it when it happened and I have seen some extraordinary lights in that area that cannot be explained - red-orange spheres. I know where the Barry Goldwater Range is and in relation to where these lights were, I do not believe there is any way the folks in Phoenix could have seen that up and over way behind South Mountain. None of that adds up.”
~ Sharon Day

“I'm former military and served from 1989 to 2010, I have been on many training and real world exercises where flares were used by numerous aircraft to light the battlefield for enemy identification and engagement...because that is what flares are intended for...lighting the battlefield. Our biggest complaint was the flares only lasted a short time and drifted down all too quickly. Gravity is always a factor as it always pulls the phosphorous charges slowly down to the ground and they usually burn out after a few minutes...they NEVER hover in the same spot for minutes at a time...that is impossible unless they have their own propulsion of some kind.“
~ P Alexander

“the military then said that the reason the "flares" went out like that is because they went behind a mountain... no one that saw it bought that nonsense because there were people that lived against the bottom of that mountain that saw the craft when they were looking towards the city, according to some residents that saw it- it blocked out the sky when it moved over their heads”
~ Gloc Kitty

See link below for quotes
www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect

See link below for quotes
www.youtube.com...

Interesting quotes that challenge that second part of the evening.

I quoted a Phoenix witness earlier (deleted by mods because I didn't link to the YT page you had provided) who insists that he saw the flares drop, but not BEFORE he'd seen some spectacular unexplained lights overhead shortly beforehand, which were not planes from his perspective.

So yes, I'm fairly sure there was a flare-drop, but the many accounts of alleged strange activity just before the drop cannot be easily ignored. Are there three chapters to the Phoenix incident overall - the earlier formation of lights judged to be jets by many; the later flare-drop; and... something else in-between?

That's why I can't let this case drop into the 'EXPLAINED' bin yet.

originally posted by: ConfusedBrit
Are there three chapters to the Phoenix incident overall - the earlier formation of lights judged to be jets by many; the later flare-drop; and... something else in-between?

I and others raised similar questions in part 1 of the Phoenix Lights myth thread, and Bonez made a "Part 2" thread to try to answer it.

The Phoenix Lights - Laying To Rest The Myth (Part 2 with Map)

Part 2 looks at specific times and locations plotted on a map, you might want to take a look.

a reply to: spiritualarchitect

I challenge the "official story" of the Phoenix Lights being flares. Yes, there were flares that were dropped later but only as a diversion to the actual Phoenix Lights event.

Here are some facts gained from actual experience even though there are a handful of posters here who seem to think actual experience counts for nothing when it comes to proper identification.

A10 Warthogs do not drop illumination flares. They drop diversion flares. A10 Warhogs are close air support for ground troops which means they engage at low altitudes. Usually below 1,000 feet and I've seen many buzzing the ground at 100 feet. Quite impressive.

The popularized video of the "flare event" is clearly illumination flares. Illumination flares float down very slowly providing night time illumination on a battlefield. Most illumination flares are hand held and top out at around 800 feet. Going any higher than that and the illumination effect is completely lost.

M127A1 Hand Held Illumination Flare


The Sierra Estrella mountain range is 4,512 feet at it's peak. The flares that were dropped were ABOVE Sierra Estrella and would have to be at least 6,000 feet based on their rate of decent and time they were in view before disappearing behind the mountain range.

Illumination flares are not deployed at 6,000 feet. They have no illumination effect on the ground at that altitude so it literally makes no sense to drop them from this height.

Here is a brief video of an A10 doing a flare dump:

An A10 flare dump does not float slowly to the ground. A10 flares burn out very quickly and they pop a ton of them to divert any ground to air missiles.

So if there were A10s doing a training mission then they would be doing test runs on fixed ground objects at high speeds and very low altitudes. Not flying at 6,000 feet above a mountain range dropping illumination flares.

The "official story" that the Phoenix Lights were nothing more than illumination flares is not true.

a reply to: 1point92AU

The A-10 drops LUU-2 or LUU-19 illumination flares from the SUU-25 launcher. The LUU-2 is a standard illumination flare, while the -19 is an IR flare. They also carry standard decoy flares. The SUU-25 is a wing mounted pod and isn't carried except on specific missions. The decoy flares are mounted internally and are carried on every mission.

a reply to: Zaphod58

They CAN carry them. They don't drop illumination flares at 6,000 feet. There is no illumination at 6,000 feet. My points in my post are valid to refute the USAF's claim the A10s were training. The only reason they would drop an illumination flare is for ground troops and as we've established at 6,000 feet makes illumination useless.

originally posted by: 1point92AU
a reply to: Zaphod58

They CAN carry them. They don't drop illumination flares at 6,000 feet. There is no illumination at 6,000 feet. My points in my post are valid to refute the USAF's claim the A10s were training. The only reason they would drop an illumination flare is for ground troops and as we've established at 6,000 feet makes illumination useless.

The highest peak is Hayes at 4512 feet but other peaks aren't as high, like Quartz peak is 4052 feet high, and since the peaks are the highest points, that means the areas below the peaks are lower, meaning less than 4000 feet around Quartz peak.

The LUU2 illumination flare specification sheet shows Range: 250-11,000 feet in the min/max timer settings box, but obviously the closer to the ground they are, the brighter, but if dropped too low they may not illuminate as wide an area. They are 1.8 million candlepower so they aren't completely useless when higher, just not as bright on the ground. Also they can fall up to 2000 feet or so during the 4 minute burn, so if you dropped them at less than 2000 feet they might hit the ground before they've burned out. I don't know exactly where Hayes peak is in the flare video usually shown as "Phoenix lights". If the flares were above that they would have to be above 4512 feet but if they are above the lower areas they wouldn't need to be so high and they definitely don't need to be as high as 6000 feet since even 5000 feet would easily clear the highest peak.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Speaking from personal experience I can tell you after 4 active duty CZ deployments and having been supported on multiple missions by A10s never once have I seen an A10 deploy an illumination flare. We carried them with us. A10 pilots certainly don't need them as they have the internal optics to see man and machine.

Most items purposed for the US military are required to have multiple applications for the "what if" scenarios. Hence the potential application of illumination flares on an A10. The primary mission of the A10 is close air support. We don't need illumination from A10s. We carry our own not to mention most of our patrols we used our NVDs further eliminating the need for illumination flares.

I'm simply conveying it makes no strategic sense as a practical application for the deployment of illumination flares at that altitude.

All of this aside the initial sighting of the Phoenix Lights is already well documents as having occurred BEFORE the more popular video of the illumination flares. That alone invalidates the USAF's claim that what was witnessed were illumination flares from A10s on a training mission.

originally posted by: 1point92AU
All of this aside the initial sighting of the Phoenix Lights is already well documents as having occurred BEFORE the more popular video of the illumination flares. That alone invalidates the USAF's claim that what was witnessed were illumination flares from A10s on a training mission.

There were two events the same evening, the approximately 8:30 pm event which was not flares I never saw anybody claim they were flares.

Then there was a 2nd event approximately 10 pm which was the flare drop that the man in the video, Lt Col. David Tanaka, says he's one of the pilots who dropped those flares:

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
Phoenix Lights Explained & Debunked

He's not even with the air force, he says he's with the Maryland Air National Guard, and he's not making any claims about the ~8:30 event, he's talking about the ~10pm event being flares.

If you're saying the air force is saying the ~8:30 event was flares, please post a link because I've never seen them say that.

For the first event, pilot Larry Campbell and co-pilot John Middleton were the American West pilots who said they were flying at 17,000 feet, and saw a V-shaped formation of lights above them, and were informed by air traffic control those were multiple aircraft flying at 19,000 feet, and one of those pilots spoke on the radio to say they were from Canada and headed for Davis-Monthan AFB. I never heard the air force say anything official about that earlier event.

As for training with things you don't normally use, isn't that common? Tanaka says he was on a night training mission.

I went through countless fire drills in school yet we never actually had a real fire so I was always training for things that never actually happened, but, just in case. So you have some visibility without the flares, but isn't the visibility better with the flares, especially if you're looking for something that doesn't have an IR signature (yes people do, but not everything does). Were you in the Air National guard, or the Air Force? They don't have the same mission, so that could make a difference too.

Ah, March 13th. Here we are again and the military will once again not repeat their supposed performance of that night 23 years ago.

www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: spiritualarchitect
Ah, March 13th. Here we are again and the military will once again not repeat their supposed performance of that night 23 years ago.

www.youtube.com...

Errrrm... I think they may be distracted by something else going on in the world, mate.

I admire you for keeping the flag waving for the UFO/Aliens thread, though, in the midst of all the madness.

Is anyone else around here today...? Weird, innit?