Universal healthcare and education

a reply to: LuxFer

I have lived as a child/teen in Europe and in America for my adult life. I am an American.

I would choose the American way 1000000% any day.

I do think you have enjoyed relatively "easy" healthcare for a while, however I think that will be rapidly changing.
It is not sustainable.

Some of my argument against UK Healthcare:
-Your taxes are astronomical.
-Your choices are limited
-Long waits


www.forbes.com...

Wait times for cancer treatment -- where timeliness can be a matter of life and death -- are also far too lengthy. According to January NHS England data, almost 25% of cancer patients didn't start treatment on time despite an urgent referral by their primary care doctor. That's the worst performance since records began in 2009.

Unless you have lived & used both systems I think it is hard to just imagine and compare.
I can say without a shadow of a doubt I'd rather pay and be alive, then be taxed and get healthcare for "free" and take my chances waiting.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ketsuko
I didn't know about the French system (in fact my knowledge even of our own isn't recent).
I'm not sure if a voucher system has ever been suggested here, but I can imagine it being a controversial proposal. The socialists would be up in arms.

Of course, the socialists are always against it. Even though it is essentially an even redistribution of funds to children for the purposes of their education, so every kid gets the same amount to spend. Isn't equality of opportunity what they want?

It shows whose pockets they're in -- teachers' unions. Teachers vote, kids don't.

I don't know for sure how your children are assigned to schools, but here, kids are assigned similar to how I've heard you get assigned to your NHS district, by postal code (zip code here). So where you live defines what school you have and if you try to fudge that to get into a better one, you can go to jail. A few blocks can make a literal world of difference in your education.

There is a commercial running on one of the kids' channels about Ruby Bridges who was the little African American 5-year-old who had to be escorted into school by federal agents during integration. One of the boys in the commercial crows about how "he can go any school he wants!" and it makes me want to puke. For most kids, they can't. Not really, they're stuck by their zip code into the school the state determines for them, good or bad. And for too many, it's bad.

If you want to know why we don't want government involved in our healthcare, take a look at our Veterans Administration.
Now picture that on a National scale.

As I stated, both system have advantages IMO. I'm not bashing either one and probably would have benefited from both at certain points in my life but now no. I can afford the best care and like having this option instead of being pigeon holed into one.

Last year for example I had a bad finger injury. The cheaper option was to cut some of it off. The expensive option was to repair it, transplanting some flesh from the side of my hand. I went with the second option and probably had one of the best hand doctors in the United States. He did an amazing job. I now have full use of it and it's damn near impossible to tell. I can still play guitar, type.

The cost between those two options however was enormous. About 3 grand to 30 plus grand (several surgeries and PT). I'm fairly certain in a socialist society most would not get the second option and to that I say screw that.

a reply to: DAVID64

Or health care on the Indian Reservations. It's also completely run by the US government, and I've heard it's worse than the VA.

a reply to: Stupidsecrets

I hear you.

I had chronic migraine (still have it, but mine are stable). I suffered for years before being refereed to a specialist. He had the freedom to try all kinds of different treatments and in all kinds of different combinations because I had the freedom to work with various providers instead of being locked in to one system where a bureaucrat had decided that most migraine suffered need X and only X and therefore X is what I would get and if it didn't work for me ... oh well, it works for most.

a reply to: LuxFer

Your tax rates are insane.


www.mileiq.com...

Personal allowance Up to £12,500 0%
Basic rate £12,501 to £50,000 20%
Higher rate £50,001 to £150,000 40%
Additional rate Over £150,000 45%

I would have to pay 45% vs. the 13.64% I paid for 2019 here in US.

Also, our government can't run anything effectively and efficiently because our bureaucrats like to enrich themselves by taking from the honey pot.

a reply to: Onlyyouknow

Are you factoring VATs into that?

a reply to: ketsuko

No, I went with federal only. Where I live sales tax is 8.25%.

a reply to: Onlyyouknow

Oh, I was talking about the British taxes you had. They have value added taxes in addition to the income taxes.

With respect to sales tax, I live in a metro, so we get hit pretty heavy. I think we're around 10%.

a reply to: Onlyyouknow

I looked at that chart and for my higher bracket, there isn't much of a difference. I probably pay close to that high a tax rate lb for lb factoring in private health insurance, high property taxes, sales tax, other taxes on utilities, fuel. And taxes can jump here in the US on a whim. One year my water tax went up 30%. Factoring all that in I likely pay more than in the UK.

Only real difference is I likely have much lower fuel costs and can pay for the best of the best medical treatment if I have the coin. As for education, I used the military. Some might say it's free but it's not. I actually had to work for it. I did the work first then they paid my tuition. Set my education back a few years but I'm not paying student loans for 15 years. To each their own..meh.

We are a shortsighted, but freedom loving bunch who are too stupid to realize just how much the shortcomings of the first is damaging our quest for the latter.
Case in point...
While european countries do pay a hefty price to provide free secondary education, their graduates, their doctors and professionals, arent graduating straddled to a ton of debt in the form of student loans. Loans that will have to be paid back, either through higher salaries that enable the to pay them, or through government bailouts when they default on those govt backed loans.
So, while our doctors may be making a little more money under our mess of a healthcare system it probably doesnt balance out when you consider the amount of debt they have had to accumulate to get their degree. And this is true for every profession and career where that extra education if required. Then consider that we have all these middlemen in between the patient and doctor, or customer and product, or student and college all wanting a piece of the pie, many who are bogged down with their own student loans.... well we might pay less taxes, but it just might be that we pay far more for our products and services. And, to top it off, it seems like whenever there is a discussion of fraud, it centers on the recipient from those relying on the safety net and not much is said about the scams the ones providing those goods or services or those middlemen pull off which take in much more money.
And of course, there is very little pressure put on those industries that do provide the goods and services that the government has decided people need a safety net to survive.
And, dependency=servitude, debt=servitude.. freedom is lost. They dont want the govt making decisions about their healthcare. They want to be able to choose their own doctor, but they seem to fail to realize that their insurance companies are already not only doing this, but also have locked them in with their employer since jumping from one employer to another often means having to change insurance with a long wait before your new employer will pick you up.. during that long wait you can make a choice between not being insured, or paying much more to continue the insurance you had from your previous employer. For some people, neither of these options are viable so they cant move on to what might be better opportunity. And, that inability to move on to higher pay, better working conditions, maybe a kinder working environment... just seems to be a major step towards slavery, not more freedom.

a reply to: LuxFer

I would like to know why in the USA there is still an argument against such a system.

governments cant run crap, especially the US govt
anything the govt' can give you the govt' can take away
wanting the gov't to provide everything for you is asking for a form of slavery
education provided by the government makes obedient subjects that don't question their masters (see also point 1)

also how are all those extra migrants working out for your NHS?

here in America most of us just want the gov't involved in our lives as little as possible.

a reply to: dawnstar

All valid points and hits on something I was trying to explain earlier about culture. On a personal level, as a US citizen I do not want to pay for other peoples stuff.

I don't want to pay for their degrees and medical bills and I don't want them paying for mine. This is mainly because I paid for my degree by working to earn the money to pay for it debt free. If one does not want to work or, they have no means to work, then take out a loan. That is a personal problem. It's not my problem and neither is the debt. If they want my circumstance of no debt then work or just don't take out loans.

I'm a little more flexible on healthcare. It's also a personal problem and I still don't want to pay for someone else but I also don't want them to die either. They still have to pay something though if they can.

Universal healthcare seems to work well for routine care, however, when your life is on the line, the US system is by far the best. That's why all the rich people from those countries come to the US when they need some serious medical care.

I don't have time to find it, but there was a study done recently showing how the US cancer survival rate is quite a bit higher than other countries primarily because of early detection, easier access to specialist, etc.

The US healthcare market is screwed up because of too much government interference reducing free choice and competition.

We have free public education K-12. College is cheap or free in some states. There are scholarships. One can also serve in military. Many employers also pay for college.

The issue is that kids of this generation don't want to make the sacrifices. They rather go into debt $200k to go to XYZ school instead of other alternatives that may be more financially prudent. This attitude is further exacerbated by the government throwing around student loans with no restrictions which does nothing but inflate the cost of tuition.

a reply to: Edumakated

My oldest son, despite my counseling to the alternative, decided to get his degree in English, with a minor in Journalism. Along the way he created zero bodies of work that could be used in his job search/resume. I advised if he was choosing that major/minor, he needed to create a blog and show either his writing skills, or begin showing some journalistic skills. He did neither.

He was gifted in STEM, graduating with honors in physics. But he didn't like that. When he graduated I told him he needed to get his teachers certificate and get to teaching. He spent the next 2 years working for $10/hr in a college bookstore.

Now he's teaching, and is exceptional at it (teaches at a private school and just got an annual bonus for his review). But he hated the idea of teaching before he realized his degree had little worth outside of a class room.

a reply to: LuxFer
Jesus LuxFer!!! Talk about jumping in the lions den, you jumped in covered it best steak.
You must really understand the Americans (though they wont actually admit it, but look at their answers) are still in the McCarthy era. ANY mention of ANYTHING free they equate to socialism which they then equate to, wait for it, COMMUNISM.
As for the US defence spending in Europe, easily solved, just take your money and go home cos we are not frightened of the communist boogieman like you are. And it will save us billions of the already over £20 billion that we've paid you for Trident.
Notice the majority of answers don't mention how their insurance companies gouge them for health care.

a reply to: dawnstar

While european countries do pay a hefty price to provide free secondary education, their graduates, their doctors and professionals, arent graduating straddled to a ton of debt in the form of student loans.

Again, unless you have lived there you probably don't understand the nuances and differences.
Think to yourself if European countries provide "free" college why isn't everyone going? If you look at statistics they are only slightly ahead of the US as far as Bachelors degrees. What is the quality of schooling? How hard is it to get into?

Each country is different, but let's take Germany for example. The article I linked is long, but it's a really good read. If Germans themselves aren't so sure of this "free" system...

The quality of the education is a concern in Germany as well. The shift to dependence on government funding, combined with the increase in enrollment, has also meant a 10% decline in spending per student in the last few years, the OECD reports. Today, German public schools spend about $16,895 per student, compared with $27,924 per student in the United States. Starved for funding, German universities are seldom near the top of international rankings.

German undergraduates, Gratz said, are stuck in lecture halls “with hundreds and hundreds of students.” PhD candidates, she said, do much of the instructing. The universities “say they do not have enough money for research. But they do not have enough money for teaching, either.”

qz.com...

a reply to: crayzeed

You must really understand the Americans (though they wont actually admit it, but look at their answers) are still in the McCarthy era. ANY mention of ANYTHING free they equate to socialism which they then equate to, wait for it, COMMUNISM.

We are just smart enough to know that Free doesn't equal free,
except when you are talking about the freedom of choice!