sound pulses

so i know this isnt aircraft but i figured id get the best answer here.


so unmanned subs

communication seem to be one of the major hurtles because radio doesnt mix well with water.

if we used lasers than they could be intercepted and keep the sub from following orders at least


what if the subs used AI for the most part along with a pre plained mission would really help with getting around but what if you need to chage where you sub has to go or you need to send launch orders(in my thought the large unmanned sub hold some sruise missiles)

what if we used sound pulses that could be encrypted, blue whales can be heard all the way around the earth no problem so a technological solution would be no issue


if you could get your communication compressed enough you could use ultra fast encrypted sound pulses and one of the best part is only the sending location is known, the pulses could theoretically be heard world wide passively.


i think im going to apply for a patent

No problem, use Extremely low frequencies to request request that your AI controlled surface and call home. That the sub warfare has worked for 50 years.

originally posted by: penroc3


communication seem to be one of the major hurtles because radio doesnt mix well with water.

if we used lasers than they could be intercepted and keep the sub from following orders at least


what if the subs used AI for the most part along with a pre plained mission would really help with getting around but what if you need to chage where you sub has to go or you need to send launch orders(in my thought the large unmanned sub hold some sruise missiles)

Have you been drinking again Roger

originally posted by: Nickn3
No problem, use Extremely low frequencies to request request that your AI controlled surface and call home. That the sub warfare has worked for 50 years.

^
This. ELF is how manned subs communicate. Why would unmanned subs be any different?

It is less a matter of theory and more a question of execution. The ocean is actually VERY noisy.

Nickn3 mentions ELF which is excellent assuming you have a vessel that can handle the transmitter. (China has one that communicates across the entire planet...but it is literally the size of NYC. )

I suspect the technology is already their though...it is just a matter of integrating it into the unmanned subs.

Below is the DOD appropriating money to develop the tech in the 1960s.

books.google.com... AQgPr5hM8A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJzIy_o7HnAhXITN8KHdQQCfkQ6AEwDXoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=underwater%20audio%20encryption&f=false

My 2 cents but if you have an engineering background it may be possible...would love to hear your progress...the only problem are unmanned subs are not mass produced so even with the tech it might be difficult to capitalize on. Alot of the countries that produce unmanned subs don't have the best patent enforcement.

originally posted by: CobaltCPD

It is less a matter of theory and more a question of execution. The ocean is actually VERY noisy. Nickn3 mentions ELF which is excellent assuming you have a vessel that can handle the transmitter.

It's not theory; it is, in fact, how subs communicate. It's a done deal, as anyone familiar with submarines can tell you. They are not out there underwater incommunicado. You may not be able to have nuanced and complex philosophical discussions via ELF because the transmission rates are slow, but subs do not need to surface in order to communicate. What is the difference between manned and unmanned submarines? One is manned and one isn't. How does that affect the transmitter? It doesn't. Not that one shouldn't search out new and better ways of doing things, but OP is working on a solution in search of a problem that does not exist.

a reply to: CobaltCPD

The E-4B, E-6B, and formerly the EC-135 have trailing wire antenna assemblies that trail out as far as 5-6 miles behind the aircraft. They're used for ELF communications to subs for command and control.

VLF and ELF is, as several people have mentioned, the solution.


Using sound can be useful for some things, but it has an attenuation problem. "Ultra-fast pulses" will attenuate significantly faster, so you are extremely range limited.

And using lower frequencies which would help, runs into the same issues with ELF communication -- you are limited in the information you can transmit/time.

So what is the professional stand on ELF and other kinds on the (sea) wildlife ?

a reply to: EartOccupant

The EC-135s were using it 40 years ago and there weren't any major upticks in strandings or injuries between then and now that I heard of.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I always wondered about that, It's easy to believe the blaming game.
Was wondering if there where any actual studies.

originally posted by: schuyler

originally posted by: CobaltCPD

It is less a matter of theory and more a question of execution. The ocean is actually VERY noisy. Nickn3 mentions ELF which is excellent assuming you have a vessel that can handle the transmitter.

It's not theory; it is, in fact, how subs communicate. It's a done deal, as anyone familiar with submarines can tell you. They are not out there underwater incommunicado. You may not be able to have nuanced and complex philosophical discussions via ELF because the transmission rates are slow, but subs do not need to surface in order to communicate. What is the difference between manned and unmanned submarines? One is manned and one isn't. How does that affect the transmitter? It doesn't. Not that one shouldn't search out new and better ways of doing things, but OP is working on a solution in search of a problem that does not exist.

From what I understand VLF can only communicate around 20 meters underwater.

Per www.google.com... ome&ie=UTF-8

Per the Source
"VLF radio waves (3–30 kHz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters."

_______________________________________
ELF is receive only per the Navy.

fas.org...

Per the source above.

"The submarines can receive ELF messages but they cannot transmit ELF signals because of the large power requirements, the large transmitter size, and the large antenna required to transmit ELF"


When submerged submarines are receive only on communications, run silent run deep.

If penroc3 can reduce ELF transmitter/power consumption/transmission distances to be usable and affordable to small subs, well their is definitely a market for that. Again, it is all execution. Their is definitely a market for subs that sneak certain products into countries and a device that could transmit ELF commands securely likely has value to that group.

a reply to: CobaltCPD

VLF can be received at over 100 feet, depending on salinity of the surrounding water. ELF is usually used as a "bell ringer" to tell the sub to come up and release a buoy or listen for a VLF message. The transmission rate is so low, that they can only send small groups of letters. So they'll send a short message, telling the sub to come up, and the E-6B will send a VLF message that has more detail.

a reply to: CobaltCPD

Absorption rate is a factor of the square root of conductivity (dependent on salinity and temp) and rf frequency. So of the things one can control, the lower the frequency, the better for penetration of your signal. VLF therefore has a lower absorption rate than "normal" radio frequencies used for communication, and ELF lower still.

nvm

Its been done..

a reply to: schuyler

VLF and even more so ELF the data transmission rate is sooooo slow that all the subs would receive is a very short preagreedapon code to send up a buoy or surface for better transmission rates.

with the kinds of AI we are seeing in programs like ALICE and LOYAL WINGMAN and others an autonomous see drone would only have to sent an antenna up to the surface for directions or kill orders

a reply to: penroc3

Which is exactly what current subs do. If it's not a message code they send a buoy up and get a radio transmission. ELF and VLF are used because you can't always use strict preprogrammed times to send a buoy up.

a reply to: Zaphod58

right but what limits a SSBN when out to sea?


Food
Crew rotations
people


I imagine a sub built like a normal sub but all the living space and other life support system area would be removed or filled with other things overall making the sub smaller and more compact.


you could leave these sitting in sea caves or other sneaky places pretty much indefinitely(reactor being the only limiter)

depending on how may of these you had it could act like a QRF or ISR or even rides for SF's


and if it needed to surface to fire at something obviously it would have to be under human orders

a reply to: penroc3

Which they'll use precoded VLF/ELF signals to bring them up to communications depth. They'd have to come up anyway to carry out whatever mission.