Many people believe the B2 won the cold war.....

Alot of people on this board and some on the news point to the B2 as the major factor in winning the cold war and bankrupting the soviets. I have another opinion, one that I have never heard mentioned. I believe what really put the soviets under was the development and deployment of the Trident submarine. As some you you might know, the Trident submarine is the single most expensive military weapon. At a cost of over $3 Billion US, possibly more with todays dollars, this weapons system is also the most complicated piece of machinery ever built. I heard a captain of one of the Trident missile boats (Ohio Class) say that in the 3 decades that the Trident has been in service, the US governent has absolutely no evidence that a trident has ever been tracked or detected by any other country. That in itself must be one hell of a scary thought. Fully loaded with nuclear weapons and you never know where it is.

Here is a website with some amazing photos of the SSN Ohio.

www.navsource.org...

I would love to hear your opinions on this thought of mine, along with any knowledge you might have of these boats or of other weapons systems you think might have contributed more.

I know this is in the aircraft section, but theres no place for navy ships on this board.

Train

I don't think the development of the Trident was the most determined reason that the USSR went down.

The war in Afghanistan was an incredibly expensive war and they slowly bled to death.

I don't think the USSR went down directly due to an American development.

while trying to maintain parity due to the Cold War played its part in siphoning off the countries resources the collapse of the Soviet Union was down to much more complex socio-economic reasons. To lay claim at any one cause, ie B-2 or Trident, is just silly.

I have my own theory that combines several factors:

1. All the regoinal wars were draining the USSR's economic resouces. (you can't run a county without money)

2. Revolutions, many countries around the world were getting rid of oppressive governments, Communisim was not liked.

3. Strategic Balance: the Arms race was all about balanceing the Nuclear threat. The US had the upper hand on in three areas: Subs, as you pointed out the Ohio Class missile subs couldn't be tracked, which was a danger to the Russians, then the B-2 came along and the bomber began to become invisible on radar, and last the MX ICBM's were mobile. These three weapon systems TOGETHER, shifted the balance of power in our (The USA) favor. The USSR could no longer check our nuclear forces, and balance the threat.

I think it wasn't any one of these factors, but the combination of all three of them together, that won the Cold War! (It's almost never one factor that causes a major event)

Tim
ATS Director of Counter-Ignorane

The British also claimed that both the Polaris and Trident boats have never been tracked. The crucial bit would be that 'they have no evidence of', doesnt mean it has never happened!

The USSR had the experience of over 70 years of a system that could not work, but a ruling elite that perpetrated the myth that it did.
People got cynical and stopped believing, and the people in countries like Poland discovered that they could get away with telling the old men in the Kremlin to shove it.
The military build-up by the US in the 80's played the role of convincing the rest of the world they no longer had to fear Soviet bullying and the implied threat thier Red Army.

True, all three weapons platforms together was the key, I forgot to mention that. I should have said, of all the B2, ICBM and SUb, the sub was more than the others. Remeber about the economic point, they bankrupted primarily due to the extreme % of GDP they were spending on the military to keep up with us. They said on the discovery channel that almost 800 billion has been spent on submarines since WWII and that people say look at all this money, we could have used it on something else except war and the captain goes, we didnt send this money on war, we spent it on peace.

Train

Lets not forget the Star Wars program.

In the 80's there was some SERIOUS money being put inot this concept. If anything was the final straw that helped bankrupt the Soviets, Star Wars might have been that one thing.....

But the collapse of the Soviet Union wasn't about weapons, it was about the people, firstly the people of East Berlin, then the other satellite countries around Russia and finally Russia itself, of course Russias determination to pay for the most and best weapons it could get made the country bankrupt (a lesson America would do well to heed before its own financial tightrope breaks) , but they were bankrupt for many years before the people had had enough and rose up. They didn't do it because America had the B-2 or whatever, they did it because they wanted the freedoms that us in the west have taken for granted all our lives, they wanted rid of opression. Like I said, there are many different and contributary factors and I couldn't possibly cover them in a message board post but if you want to choose one overwhelming reason then it was the people.

I heared that the SU still could survive but with a ammount of modifications.

Originally posted by Pyros
Lets not forget the Star Wars program.

In the 80's there was some SERIOUS money being put inot this concept. If anything was the final straw that helped bankrupt the Soviets, Star Wars might have been that one thing.....

I also heard this, but can't remember where. Russia was having trouble keeping up, but SDI was the final straw. The Russians were making alot of short cuts in all areas in an attempt to keep up and eventually went bankrupt. And on hearing about SDI, they quit trying and the rest is history.

Originally posted by waynos
while trying to maintain parity due to the Cold War played its part in siphoning off the countries resources the collapse of the Soviet Union was down to much more complex socio-economic reasons. To lay claim at any one cause, ie B-2 or Trident, is just silly.

Exactly

Their collapse was caused by many factors, ONE of which being the US/USSR arms race. This race INCLUDED such weapon systems as the F-117/B-2 stealth aircraft (which forced the Soviets to spend a LOT of money on missle defense), the starwars program, and our strategic nuclear trident, whos main component was the SSBN submarine and XM peacekeeper missle. In fact, the B-2 was also going to be a huge part of it, with an original order of over a hundred by the USAF.

which instead have made the us possible bankrupt

Originally posted by tomcat ha
which instead have made the us possible bankrupt

Sorry buddy, the US isn't anywhere CLOSE to bankrupt, much as you may want us to be.

10 TRILLION dollar economy. Thats all you need to know.

If the US goes Bankrupt, we take the rest of the world with us.

I was soooo waiting for you to state that it bankrupted the US. Every liberal loves to blame the US military spending for the deficit. Hey buddy, do you ever look at the budget. Do you know what the biggest pay out program is in the US today. Its called entitlements, Social security, welfare, medicare and veterans benefits (the only worthy one). The US budget this yr is 2.5 trillion dollars around abouts. The US military budget is about 450 billion, that is less than 20% of the total budget and it still accounts for more spending than the top 20 other countries combined. Quit blaming the military for the problem and look at your neighbors on your street who never leave their house, ever wonder how they get money? What else are we spending 2.1 trillion dollars on, it sure as hell isnt the border security, or fixing the highways its to pay for people who dont work!!!

Social security is closing in on 40% of the budget within the next 5 years and god knows what medicare is, this does not include state budgets either, which is even more rediculous. I believe the correct number this year on SS alone is upwards of $700 billion.

You wanna blame a problem for deficits, blame the entiltlements that dont provide taxes in return for services. Talk about communism.

Why do you think social security needs reforming, because that will bankrupt us, not the military.

Train (I'm alittle pissed off today)

P.S. If someone wants to start a thread on this, Id be glad to join up and argue this.

[edit on 10-3-2005 by BigTrain]

Why do you think social security needs reforming, because that will bankrupt us, not the military.

Alas!! somebody who gets it! In addition, military spending actually helps the economy in the long run. Almost every scientific invention has it roots in warfare. The microwave, the internet, anti-lock brakes, composite materials, even many pharmaceuticals, have the roots in military technology.

I still feel the US Armed Forces are out greatest asset

Exactly Kyle, I had to do research about how the military affects the US economy last year in school. The findings were amazing. During war time, the economic boom is astonding in past wars, Billions upon Billions of dollars have been spent in the private sector.

Train

Kyle and Bigtrain

it's nice to see two people who understand this situation.

The military provides not only jobs to those in service, but to thousands of people employed by companies with defence contracts.

Of course there are some who want people to believe that the 400+ billion dollar DoD budget is to blame for all of our problems, but then do not mention welfare and SS.

that "b2 is tha cause of the soviet colapse" is pretty propaganda , even advertising to justify that costly sucker taxes plane with limited capacities and poor dynamic stealth performance (relative with the costs and the expectatives) -it only have some stealth in statics tests-

the reasons of the soviet colapse is mainly the lenin death, and the frustrated implementation of the new economic policy, with the stalin rise the comunism turn in a corrupted organization and centralism (lenin knew that), later krushev tried other "new economic policy" he almost reach that, but lost the fight, gorvachev tried that in the 80s but he didnt have the carism and suport of krushev the reforms were to late

Grunt...

It wasn't the B-2 alone, it was the combined pressure that the B-2, SDI, Peacekeeper ICBM, and many other weapons projects that partially caused the USSRs collapse.

Like it was said, it was a combination of reasons - to say it was simply a bomber or Lennins death is short sighted.

The US did it's part to make the USSR collapse, the USSR did theirs.