Three Questions For Damnationists

Thank you, Pinocchio, that was interesting.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
I am here to dispel the fear of Hell from the hearts and minds of men. Perhaps you can tell me why you are so dismissive of evidence that God is both willing and able to save all - it should be good news to you, unless Hell is your god...or at least a spiritual stronghold.

If Jesus wasn't willing to give every soul a chance for their names to be entered into the book of life, he wouldn't be bothered with the expected "great white throne" judgement to begin with. They wouldn't even see their day in court, he would just throw them all into the lake of fire right away like he does with Satan, the beast and the false prophet. This is not a matter of him being willing to save everyone, because he could if he wants to. He won't, because if you believe that your God is a just one, then you also believe that justice must be served. If you were an evil little ass hole your whole life, there will be consequences. You're not going to play God and think he'll just let everything you ever did in your life slide on by.

originally posted by: Dcopymope

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
I am here to dispel the fear of Hell from the hearts and minds of men. Perhaps you can tell me why you are so dismissive of evidence that God is both willing and able to save all - it should be good news to you, unless Hell is your god...or at least a spiritual stronghold.

If Jesus wasn't willing to give every soul a chance for their names to be entered into the book of life, he wouldn't be bothered with the expected "great white throne" judgement to begin with. They wouldn't even see their day in court, he would just throw them all into the lake of fire right away like he does with Satan, the beast and the false prophet. This is not a matter of him being willing to save everyone, because he could if he wants to. He won't, because if you believe that your God is a just one, then you also believe that justice must be served. If you were an evil little ass hole your whole life, there will be consequences. You're not going to play God and think he'll just let everything you ever did in your life slide on by.

Be aware of two things:

1. I am not pushing the idea that the wicked get into the Kingdom under a shower of rose petals, with all forgiven automatically. I believe that everyone answers for their sins, even "every idle word." OTOH, I also see Jesus' return and the resurrection as the grand fulfillment of the Jubilee, when all go free of their master (sin) and return to their family, lands and rewards. Yet, some will require correction, chastisement and disciplining to be fit for the Kingdom. It will NOT be pleasant, but it must happen if death is to be defeated/destroyed, and for God to become All in all. I believe He is both able and willing to bring about such an end.

2. Yes, God is just, and part of His justice was to send His Own Son to suffer and die for our benefit. I will not elaborate on that, just hoping you will meditate on it for a while.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: Dcopymope

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
I am here to dispel the fear of Hell from the hearts and minds of men. Perhaps you can tell me why you are so dismissive of evidence that God is both willing and able to save all - it should be good news to you, unless Hell is your god...or at least a spiritual stronghold.

If Jesus wasn't willing to give every soul a chance for their names to be entered into the book of life, he wouldn't be bothered with the expected "great white throne" judgement to begin with. They wouldn't even see their day in court, he would just throw them all into the lake of fire right away like he does with Satan, the beast and the false prophet. This is not a matter of him being willing to save everyone, because he could if he wants to. He won't, because if you believe that your God is a just one, then you also believe that justice must be served. If you were an evil little ass hole your whole life, there will be consequences. You're not going to play God and think he'll just let everything you ever did in your life slide on by.

Be aware of two things:

1. I am not pushing the idea that the wicked get into the Kingdom under a shower of rose petals, with all forgiven automatically. I believe that everyone answers for their sins, even "every idle word." OTOH, I also see Jesus' return and the resurrection as the grand fulfillment of the Jubilee, when all go free of their master (sin) and return to their family, lands and rewards. Yet, some will require correction, chastisement and disciplining to be fit for the Kingdom. It will NOT be pleasant, but it must happen if death is to be defeated/destroyed, and for God to become All in all. I believe He is both able and willing to bring about such an end.

2. Yes, God is just, and part of His justice was to send His Own Son to suffer and die for our benefit. I will not elaborate on that, just hoping you will meditate on it for a while.

His return? Well his resurrection is of course the fulfillment of something good, to say the least. His actual second coming as far I can see however is nothing more than the fulfillment of the millennial kingdom. Perhaps many will come to repentance and be saved during this time period. However, many of them living at the time will apparently get burned to a crisp for going against the Lord, so if sin is the master they supposedly get free'd from at this point, it obviously ain't gonna work too well.

(Revelation 20:7-9) "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

So it won't matter if God is sitting in front of their faces in the flesh, they will still let Satan twist their minds into being an adversary. This proves the point I made in my own thread regarding the true regeneration event. The only time the creation gets 'free'd' from sin is when this earth is replaced with the new one to come. When this earth passes away, so will the sin that came with it, and the very knowledge of it. I don't have much hope for non-believers beyond that. If they wish to bank the fate of their souls on their works, the thing they will be judged by being unbelievers, then all I have to say to them is 'good luck'.

Dcopymope: My position is that those who throw in with Satan, as you mention in the Revelation 20:7-9, are not just devoured, they are devoured by Godfire. I did an extensive word study on "fire" and related words in the KJV, and was impelled to conclude that that there are two kinds of fire in the Bible: natural fire and God-fire. There is no "Hellfire," not only because Hell is a 404, but because all supernatural fire is a manifestation of God. I can copy and paste the relevant chapter from my book, if you like. So, those devoured by the fire endure what those tossed into the Lake of Fire endure:

chastisement
purification
cleansing
the burning away of personal chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble
exposure to the Spirit of God
and
eventual redemption.

Anyway, if they are simply annihilated, they are dead, and then Death cannot be defeated or destroyed, can it?

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Dcopymope: My position is that those who throw in with Satan, as you mention in the Revelation 20:7-9, are not just devoured, they are devoured by Godfire. I did an extensive word study on "fire" and related words in the KJV, and was impelled to conclude that that there are two kinds of fire in the Bible: natural fire and God-fire. There is no "Hellfire," not only because Hell is a 404, but because all supernatural fire is a manifestation of God. I can copy and paste the relevant chapter from my book, if you like. So, those devoured by the fire endure what those tossed into the Lake of Fire endure:

chastisement
purification
cleansing
the burning away of personal chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble
exposure to the Spirit of God
and
eventual redemption.

Anyway, if they are simply annihilated, they are dead, and then Death cannot be defeated or destroyed, can it?

Why are you adding words to the narrative that isn't even implied? When its referring to "death" being cast into the lake of fire, its not just the death of the flesh, but to to the soul which is body and spirit, the whole person. Nothing in scripture indicates this is a "cleansing", "chastisement", or "purification". If they were to be "purified" at all, there names would be in the book of life to start with. That's the entire point of the judgement, because the true "purification" is not the Lords resurrection, or the Lords second coming, or the lake of fire. The true "purification", or "redemption", or "cleansing", is heaven and earth passing away in replacement for the heaven and earth to come, and the only reason why its a "new" creation at all is because of his resurrection making everything new, not in spite of it. Jesus never described the second death as a "purification", but as absolute destruction. When you are tossed in, its the end of the road for you, its final.

(Matthew 10:28) "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

If the lake of fire is a purification process, there would be nothing to fear about it to begin with. The lake of fire is a place reserved for Satan and his angels. Their fate is already sealed which is why there is no throne judgement for them, so if you end up in the fire with them, you truly earned it.

(Matthew 25:40-41) "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Dcopymope: I understand where you are coming from, but my opinion is based on my review of EVERY verse in the Bible, and most of them I have yet to mention. If, as you say, the whole person is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, then we are left with a plot hole...that being when the time comes to proclaim the destruction and defeat of Death - oops! - the ones we tossed into the LoF are still dead, so we can't proclaim it. There's no getting around it - annihilation bumps up on this rock and sinks. Then there is the plot hole of damnation - the damned are supposedly alive in Hell (even though they must be dead to go there...figure that one out), but damnation bumps on a rock called Revelation 21:5, and again, sinks. There is just no way around it - I Jesus the Christ is going to make everything new, then ECT in Hell is ruled out. Anyway, God never mentioned the creation of Hell, did He? I find that Damnation and Annihilation generate gobs of plot holes that UR does not. With bad translation and theo-illogical bias eliminated, the Bible makes perfect sense.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Dcopymope: I understand where you are coming from, but my opinion is based on my review of EVERY verse in the Bible, and most of them I have yet to mention. If, as you say, the whole person is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, then we are left with a plot hole...that being when the time comes to proclaim the destruction and defeat of Death - oops! - the ones we tossed into the LoF are still dead, so we can't proclaim it. There's no getting around it - annihilation bumps up on this rock and sinks. Then there is the plot hole of damnation - the damned are supposedly alive in Hell (even though they must be dead to go there...figure that one out), but damnation bumps on a rock called Revelation 21:5, and again, sinks. There is just no way around it - I Jesus the Christ is going to make everything new, then ECT in Hell is ruled out. Anyway, God never mentioned the creation of Hell, did He? I find that Damnation and Annihilation generate gobs of plot holes that UR does not. With bad translation and theo-illogical bias eliminated, the Bible makes perfect sense.

When Paul and the rest of them state that "death is swallowed up in victory", they are speaking of the saints gaining immortality through Jesus. For the saints, death is defeated, and for everyone else, there will be the tree of life. I see not a single solitary plot hole in the narrative.

(Revelation 22:1-3) "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. [2] In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. [3] And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:"

So like I said, God did not have to grant the saints immortal bodies if he didn't want to. Its not something that has to happen for you to be "saved". Its nothing more than a reward on account of your faith in Jesus. Just like the body of Jesus, our bodies will also no longer experience decay. This is why he compares the promised "glorified body" to that of angels, because there is really nothing more special about it than that. He could keep us exactly the way we are now and have us fetching leaves off a tree to gain immortality like the rest of the nations will at that point. This is why all falsehoods have to be addressed, because one falsehood will eventually snowball into another, because the entire book is connected from start to finish.