Could the belief in god considered a mental illness ?

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: TzarChasm

If you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have an eternal soul and will survive beyond this reality, would you struggle so much for life in the here and now? Wouldn't knowing what lies afterward cheapen the thrill of this existence? Like reading through a book for the second time, knowing what comes next or watching a movie again after knowing the plot twists and conclusion, it just doesn't have the same effect as being a virgin. Couldn't that hold true for this life?

Life isn't a choose your own adventure novel or a TV show to be enjoyed without spoilers because the story is just that damn good. This is precisely why science exists in the first place.

Science was undertaken to understand Gods creation.
Today it’s undertaken to prove God doesn’t exist

As for choosing religion or faith, why would anyone choose peace, love and compassion in this world over Thor, Mohamad or those beliefs that allow power and revenge, human nature to be vented

Peace, love and compassion are independent of religion and messiah figures. They are not codependent concepts.

I would argue that with no hesitation, even confessed Christians struggle with Christ’s teachings
Who do you see supporting your comments.
Any societies you could mention off hand to help me understand?

I'm not sure what you are asking here. Peace, love and compassion don't need religion. They preceded religion, they preceded gods. These concepts were born first, before scriptures were written and before churches were built. Believing that you need an innocent man to be tortured and executed...believing that message speaks of love and hope? That is depravity. Martyrs are proof of disease, not salvation.

a reply to: gosseyn
I don't know but being prejudice is prevalent in our society, even among the atheists-

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

originally posted by: Nothin

You have a choice to determine what you want to learn in this lifetime (you wrote the script). Then you incarnate and the rules say you forget everything or everyone you were in prior incarnations. Self determination goes out the window; but you still think you are in charge of your destiny. You are not. You are bound to that contract you signed before you became human again.

Hi VHB.
Sorry: but don't seem to have any of that !

We had a chat, in another thread, about the same ideas of yours.
Perhaps you recall ?
It went something like the following paraphrasing:

You were asked where you got those 'beliefs'.
And you answered that they were not beliefs, but 'Truth'.

Well: perhaps it is appropriate that you bring these ideas to this thread, about 'beliefs'.
For me anyways, but perhaps you might be willing to share how you came upon those 'Truths' ?

One can believe whatever they want.
But it's a bit different for those, whom see all those ideas as 'beliefs', don'cha think ?

Should a 'Truth': not be something so obvious, that none could deny it ?

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: TzarChasm

One thing I want to look into

because I was discussing Jordan Peterson and his addiction, he studied addiction and drug abuse and has a Phd in clinical psychology , he is well versed in addictions yet he was prescrivbed an addictive drug.
and is now addicted and in rehab.

Did his genetics mean he was destined to become an addict, did he have free will to choose not to use the drugs ,

we were talking about genetics and how we are all pretty much slaves to our genes in one way or another, as they control our every move .

So god apparently gave humanity free will , and based on what some believe that humans are creations of divinity
via intelligent design.

So do we truly have free will if our genes control pretty much every choice we seem to consciously make
from our partners to our diet , our lifestyles are pretty much controlled by our genes

so if you look at it from that point of view, god lied and didnt give anyone free will as he designed our genetic code then he took away our free will

Assuming that determinism is a myth, we ALWAYS have a choice.

We dont choose to be born and we dont choose when we die
unless taking our own lives

can we even prove we have free will ?

a reply to: sapien82
Can a person even choose to commit suicide?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

I dont know really but to me it seems like its a choice , to end your life

unless of course there is something else going on there

originally posted by: sapien82

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: TzarChasm

One thing I want to look into

because I was discussing Jordan Peterson and his addiction, he studied addiction and drug abuse and has a Phd in clinical psychology , he is well versed in addictions yet he was prescrivbed an addictive drug.
and is now addicted and in rehab.

Did his genetics mean he was destined to become an addict, did he have free will to choose not to use the drugs ,

we were talking about genetics and how we are all pretty much slaves to our genes in one way or another, as they control our every move .

So god apparently gave humanity free will , and based on what some believe that humans are creations of divinity
via intelligent design.

So do we truly have free will if our genes control pretty much every choice we seem to consciously make
from our partners to our diet , our lifestyles are pretty much controlled by our genes

so if you look at it from that point of view, god lied and didnt give anyone free will as he designed our genetic code then he took away our free will

Assuming that determinism is a myth, we ALWAYS have a choice.

We dont choose to be born and we dont choose when we die
unless taking our own lives

can we even prove we have free will ?

I suppose you can't really prove you have free will anymore than you can prove an omnipotent omniscient all powerful super alien isn't manipulating every move you make and meddling with your mind to cover its tracks. But that would be some top shelf conspiracy material. Let us know if you figure it out.

a reply to: TzarChasm

awww you will be the first person I tell

originally posted by: Nothin

VHB: You have a choice to determine what you want to learn in this lifetime (you wrote the script). Then you incarnate and the rules say you forget everything or everyone you were in prior incarnations. Self determination goes out the window; but you still think you are in charge of your destiny. You are not. You are bound to that contract you signed before you became human again.

Nothin: Hi VHB. Sorry: but don't seem to have any of that !

We had a chat, in another thread, about the same ideas of yours.Perhaps you recall ? It went something like the following paraphrasing:
You were asked where you got those 'beliefs
And you answered that they were not beliefs, but 'Truth'.
Well: perhaps it is appropriate that you bring these ideas to this thread, about 'beliefs'.
For me anyways, but perhaps you might be willing to share how you came upon those 'Truths' ?

If you are questioning the idea of "Truth" itself as being valid (whether by observation or experience) I may be able to really muddle this up. Belief *systems* are never real; they are another's dogmatic idea put forth in order to manipulate you into giving up your free will (soul) and or separate you from your money. You have your own 'truths'. I would say my truth would best be described as Gnostic understanding: "to know"/GROK.

Nothin: One can believe whatever they want but it is a bit different for those, whom see those beliefs as truth doncha think? Should a 'Truth': not be something so obvious, that none could deny it ?

To 'believe' in something is to trust in someone else their idea you are considering may be true. To 'know' is absolute certainty in what you are contemplating is YOUR truth. Do you understand the difference? Look at it this way. Instead of accepting the Catholic Church as being your vehicle to the attainment of eternal life; create your own church or explore a personal spirituality specific to your needs/desires, much more rewarding.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

To 'know' is absolute certainty in what you are contemplating is YOUR truth.

If it's 'your' truth it may not be mine and as such it might not be true at all. I would suggest that what you believe with absolute certainty can just as easily be subjective delusion.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

If you are questioning the idea of "Truth" itself as being valid (whether by observation or experience) I may be able to really muddle this up. Belief *systems* are never real; they are another's dogmatic idea put forth in order to manipulate you into giving up your free will (soul) and or separate you from your money. You have your own 'truths'. I would say my truth would best be described as Gnostic understanding: "to know"/GROK.

To 'believe' in something is to trust in someone else their idea you are considering may be true. To 'know' is absolute certainty in what you are contemplating is YOUR truth. Do you understand the difference? Look at it this way. Instead of accepting the Catholic Church as being your vehicle to the attainment of eternal life; create your own church or explore a personal spirituality specific to your needs/desires, much more rewarding.

Hi VHB. Sorry for messing-up the quotes on my last post.

Yes: thanks for muddling that up... LoL !

There are other beliefs than those that we receive from others.
Do we not formulate, and cultivate our own beliefs ?

How is it that we could come to the idea that our own ideas, are 'Truth" ?
Sorry but don't understand that part at all.
It just seems like a self-delusion, for one to think that their own ideas are "Truth".

My ideas have never stood-up to the bright light of deep inquiry.
Therefore: even my idea, that us thinking our own ideas being "Truth" may be self-delusion: may be BS as well.

In the end: usually come to the point that nothing is certain, and so now you can see why someone calling their own thoughts "Truth", just does not compute here.

No matter what beliefs others try to feed us: do we not always end up interpreting them in our own way ?
Those are the beliefs that am interested in.
What the individual's beliefs have morphed into.
My interest is to examine if there are any residual beliefs still here, in my thinking.

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: vethumanbeing

VHB: To 'know' is absolute certainty in what you are contemplating is YOUR truth.

midicon: If it's 'your' truth it may not be mine and as such it might not be true at all. I would suggest that what you believe with absolute certainty can just as easily be subjective delusion.

That is the point. You do not have to have the same experience I have to validate anything certainly not your personal spirituality. Your realization or awareness there is a separation of/by you from your Origin is critical. It drives the experiment and produces consumables in the form of emotional energy turns into an edible commodity that is very valuable. Some forms of synthesized 'love' emotion are priceless.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

So the truth is you have no 'truth' other than your own subjective experience and take on reality. Which is fine but of absolutely no use to anyone else but you.

If I listen to your advice, that is 'find your own truth' why would I listen to you? It's nonsense.

Let me give you a 'truth'. You know nothing and that should be your start and end point.

No need to thank me for that.

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: vethumanbeing
So the truth is you have no 'truth' other than your own subjective experience and take on reality. Which is fine but of absolutely no use to anyone else but you.If I listen to your advice, that is 'find your own truth' why would I listen to you? It's nonsense.Let me give you a 'truth'. You know nothing and that should be your start and end point. No need to thank me for that.

THANK YOU for your thoughts. Your *truth* is yours alone. It has no thing to do with my understanding of my own quest. This is your journey and it is separate from mine. Hope this helps.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

THANK YOU for your thoughts. Your *truth* is yours alone. It has no thing to do with my understanding of my own quest. This is your journey and it is separate from mine. Hope this helps.

And yet you previously said...

Your realization or awareness there is a separation of/by you from your Origin is critical. It drives the experiment and produces consumables in the form of emotional energy turns into an edible commodity that is very valuable. Some forms of synthesized 'love' emotion are priceless.

That is you imparting information and directing it towards me as if it is true. You can't then say when asked how you know this 'I know because I know'. If that's the case then maybe you shouldn't be saying anything.

Our paths may be different but truth is truth regardless and not subject to some sort of personal take on it. Your words reveal more about you than you realise.

a reply to: midicon
Nothing to know and no one to know it!!

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: midicon
Nothing to know and no one to know it!!

No disagreement here!

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: vethumanbeing

VHB: THANK YOU for your thoughts. Your *truth* is yours alone. It has no thing to do with my understanding of my own quest. This is your journey and it is separate from mine. Hope this helps.

midicon: And yet you previously said...

VHB: Your realization or awareness there is a separation of/by you from your Origin is critical. It drives the experiment and produces consumables in the form of emotional energy turns into an edible commodity that is very valuable. Some forms of synthesized 'love' emotion are priceless.

midicon: That is you imparting information and directing it towards me as if it is true. You can't then say when asked how you know this 'I know because I know'. If that's the case then maybe you shouldn't be saying anything. Our paths may be different but truth is truth regardless and not subject to some sort of personal take on it. Your words reveal more about you than you realise.

Imparting INFORMATION!? (and directing it at you *as if true*). I could have lied about that information and been speaking instead to your barnyard mule; but I was not. I have my experience; you have yours. Do you not express yourself to those that may disagree or have a different experience of life than your own? Are you adventuresome (read)? Do you allow for the transference of information by others to yourself?

a reply to: vethumanbeing

I have my experience; you have yours. Do you not express yourself to those that may disagree or have a different experience of life than your own? Are you adventuresome (read)? Do you allow for the transference of information by others to yourself?

I am a simple fellow. In this instance perhaps like the child pointing at the emperor. I do not make statements about God and life's purpose. I may have my own experience but I am wise enough to know the difference between a personal truth and an objective one. You on the other hand make bold statements as if they are facts but when questioned they become personal truths.

Having said that, I wish you well.

Regards midicon

Let him without mental illness cast the first stone.