‘Human error’: Tehran admits to shooting down Ukrainian plane by mistake

a reply to: neformore

You would think the Iran defense forces would at least have the take off schedule?

i find it amazing how quick people are in believing a known and proven liar. first they blame mechanical issues (on an American built aircraft). they refuse to hand over the flight data recorders. they claim that said recorder's information has been corrupted (now how would they even know that unless they themselves corrupted it), pretty much immediately after the "crash".

now that they admit it was "accidentally" shot down, we automatically believe them?

my feeling right from the very beginning, is that this aircraft was intentionally shot down. there are just too many coincidences involved it this so called accident. not to mention the lies involved. which taken together if their story had been taken seriously would not only have been a major propaganda victory. but at the same time very likely could have taken down a major US company. which of course would have harmed the economy. and also could have led to a stock market downturn. yet more victories over their enemy in this conflict they have started.

first lets look at what Iran said pretty much just after the crash which occurred about 8 minutes after takeoff (and that timing of the "crash" is a very important detail). they claimed that the crash was caused by an engine malfunction. and went on about how the 737 was a sister aircraft of the 737 Max, which has been grounded after two crashes, for safety issues involving the engines. thus laying the groundwork to place the blame on the American built aircraft (and just who is it that they have been provoking war with?).

as i mentioned the timing of the crash is very important. the two 737 Max crashes were 6 minutes and 12 minutes after takeoff. this "crash"/shootdown the timing lands right in the middle of those times. which does make it seem to the uninformed that it is likely the same thing happening. and if you ask the average person what caused the 737 Max crashes, the answer you generally get is "engine problems". we even saw that in comments on news stories and posts about this crash when the Iranian statements first came out. although those who know better, know that in fact the difference between the 737 Max and other 737 aircraft IS the engines they are equipped with. the Max aircraft being equipped with more powerful engines. and while it was not really the engines that cased those crashes per say, they were involved. the real issues of those crashes was a combination of systems put into place to deal with those more powerful engines and the effect they have on the aircraft, especially on takeoff. as well as pilot error.

then we of course have the interesting compliment of passengers on board the aircraft. a good portion of those being Canadian/students in Canada. as well as people from other countries. almost all of which if they are not Iranian, or dual Iranian/other citizens in the first place are close relations of Iranians. of course this would cause people to ask why they would kill their own people (which it did in many arguments in comments of news stories and posts. but even more valuable is that this enabled the Iranians to play the "loss" and "anger" cards for support both in Iran as well as in other countries after all we even saw Canadian politicians protesting against the US over this war Iran is trying to start. and killing "kids" is always good for this type of thing as well. that makes it good propaganda, which would help Iran on the public opinion front. something which is a big part of modern war. we have seen such propaganda can even be a big part of winning wars. Viet Nam is a great example of the value of this type of propaganda helping to win a way by turning public opinion against those involved, both abroad and at home. also why there is a term used called "winning hearts and minds" involved in modern warfare.

the fact that this was an American built aircraft is also of great importance. especially with the lies to try to pin the blame on the manufacturer. Boeing is already having issues since the Max line of aircraft have been grounded. especially with things like canceled orders. just imagine the harm if we bought their lies about it crashing due to "manufacturer's defect". it could have easily destroyed the company. which in turn hurts the US economy. another win against their adversaries. it also would have had a negative impact on the stock market if such a large company was put out of business. yet another win against the US. not to mention the fallout of an American company killing families and children/students. yet even another win against the US.

wars are not just fought on battlefields. they are also fought politically and through public opinion around the world as well as in the countries fighting each other. and the picture they tried to paint through their lies would have been battles won for Iran. battles won with no loss of life of their actual battle forces and equipment. which is why i think that Iran purposely shot down the aircraft at the specific timing they did so at. all just part of their war strategy and fighting.

a reply to: generik

Uhhhh...the 737 MAX crashes had nothing to do with engine failure!

The 737 MAX was NOT grounded due to "issues involving the engines"

Your statements are simply...WRONG!

The 737 MAX was grounded due to an automated system which takes control away from the pilots and adjusts the trim of the aircraft downward, the system is known as MCAS. A system which pilots were not aware of, nor were they properly trained on, and no available simulators could replicate at the time. And, rather than re-hash all the posts here on ATS already about this, I suggest you go read those threads and posts to educate yourself about what really happened with the 737 MAX.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

please read what i actually wrote. i did not say the Max crashes were due to engine failure. in fact i specifically said pretty much the exact things you just did. but the fact is that most people do in fact equate those crashes to while not necessarily engine failure, but to at least the engines. since that how most people understand it. the MCAS system is to deal with the more powerful engines and the differences those engines cause to the flight characteristics, most people just see ENGINES in that. i know because i have been explaining that to people ever since those Max crashes happened. that no the engines did not cause those crashes due to problems with them.

which does make it seem to the uninformed that it is likely the same thing happening. and if you ask the average person what caused the 737 Max crashes, the answer you generally get is "engine problems". we even saw that in comments on news stories and posts about this crash when the Iranian statements first came out. although those who know better, know that in fact the difference between the 737 Max and other 737 aircraft IS the engines they are equipped with. the Max aircraft being equipped with more powerful engines. and while it was not really the engines that cased those crashes per say, they were involved. the real issues of those crashes was a combination of systems put into place to deal with those more powerful engines and the effect they have on the aircraft, especially on takeoff. as well as pilot error.

and if you read my post i said that those crashes were due to the MCAS system (even if i didn't use it's specific name). as well as pilot error which covers things like poor training and knowledge. in fact if i remember correctly, to make things worse in one of those crashes while one pilot did not have much time in the Max. the other didn't even have much time in aircraft with wing mounted engines. instead had been flying aircraft with tail mounted engines. which has a completely different flight characteristics than an aircraft with wing mounted engines. and that the investigation came out and said those two pilots should never have been flying that aircraft together.

so no i don't "need to educate myself". and not only did i read much of those posts when those accidents were fresh, i likely posted in them as well.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: neformore
Is it false flight 655 had a transponder broadcasting on a channel that should only be from military aircraft?

Contrary to the accounts of various Vincennes crew members, the cruiser's Aegis Combat System recorded that the airliner was climbing at the time and its radio transmitter was squawking on only the Mode III civilian frequency, and not on the military Mode II

Yes. Its false.

a reply to: neutronflux

Probably, yes, but someone had just whacked their closest equivalent to a Vice President, and the war dogs were off the leash.

The plane probably passed directly over a mobile SAM that had been deployed in case of US air attacks.

Of course, none of the above makes it right. # happens unfortunately.

a reply to: neutronflux

The CIC didn't reduce the radar range once they detected 655, so they were apparently picking up the transponder from an F-14 that was on the ground at Bandar Abbas, and seeing its Mode 2.

a reply to: Gothmog

So , in your fantasy world , Iran would have spoken up and stated that they accidentally shot a commercial airline down ?
And the Iranian government is covering up for the US ?

I'm not sure I understand. I didn't say any of that.

I'm saying I'm surprised at only this:

- Iran fessed up and admitted to it's mistake and didn't blame the US as the culprit.

- The US government didn't accuse Iran of malice. They openly stated that it was likely an accident.

What didn't surprise me is that the people, we of the US and people abroad:

- Blamed Iran for purposely doing this

- Blamed Trump for causing this

I also wasn't surprised that the US was considered the 'cause' of this as the outcome by Iran and by people all over the world.

It just really impressed me that someone spoke up and took fault while the other considered it an accident rather than accuse them of evil intent.

a reply to: StallionDuck

I honestly couldn't rule out US involvement. I know the things we've done in the past for the sake of war and to push others to get involved in that war.

Direct quote .
Now , what didn't you say ?

Protests have begun in Iran demanding the Ayatollah step down. The Iranian government also detained the British ambassador.

I never stated that was an ‘accident list’ rather I added that we don’t know for sure this situation was indeed an accident. a reply to: deltaalphanovember

I think my favorite ridiculous theory so far is Israel got the missile codes from Russia causing Iranian missiles to shootdown the flight.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: generik

Uhhhh...the 737 MAX crashes had nothing to do with engine failure!

The 737 MAX was NOT grounded due to "issues involving the engines"

Your statements are simply...WRONG!

The 737 MAX was grounded due to an automated system which takes control away from the pilots and adjusts the trim of the aircraft downward, the system is known as MCAS. A system which pilots were not aware of, nor were they properly trained on, and no available simulators could replicate at the time. And, rather than re-hash all the posts here on ATS already about this, I suggest you go read those threads and posts to educate yourself about what really happened with the 737 MAX.

Thank God someone is on the ball.
I don't think we have all information as yet, nor can I understand, generik's stance talking about a proven liar, per se, when the rooms full of them, and as it happens, Ukraine actually made the same statement about engine failure at one stage then deleted it. Not much doubt though that their, (Ukraine's) statement would have been to somehow console victim's relatives, while that turned into a Faux Pas.

Things to consider too, Trump's recent tweet,

"To the brave, long-suffering people of Iran: I've stood with you since the beginning of my Presidency, and my Administration will continue to stand with you. We are following your protests closely, and are inspired by your courage," the President tweeted in both English and Farsi.
In a separate tweet, Trump wrote that Iran's government "must allow human rights groups to monitor and report facts from the ground on the ongoing protests by the Iranian people."
"There can not be another massacre of peaceful protesters, nor an internet shutdown. The world is watching," Trump wrote.
edition.cnn.com... ..and others.

Compare it to,
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
These Media Posts will serve as notification to the United States Congress that should Iran strike any U.S. person or target, the United States will quickly & fully strike back, & perhaps in a disproportionate manner. Such legal notice is not required, but is given nevertheless!
382K
8:25 PM - Jan 5, 2020
www.independent.co.uk... ..and others.

Another curiosity, (for me that is) is the video I took stills of posted back a while, as being the moments a missile hit the plane..definitely a bad moment in time, but what moment in time? Visibility was good or very good, but the camera doesn't pick up what should have been a pretty well lit up aircraft in low altitude in departure.
There may well have been reasons for that, I don't know as yet, nor do I know as yet why the individual was filming.
Enough at least to wonder why we get this strange profidity style post from, generik.

a reply to: smurfy

They were several miles away, using their phone camera. At that distance they're not going to see all the lights.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: smurfy

They were several miles away, using their phone camera. At that distance they're not going to see all the lights.

Okay, I do understand that phone cameras have distinct variables in quality, I do understand that reproduction on the internet is mostly degraded, however, the cues seem to be the same for everybody, you, me, us, governments all talked about the videos...posted online.

a reply to: smurfy

The individual was likely filming after hearing the first missile firing/exploding?

originally posted by: shawmanfromny

Yep, there seems to be a lot of "morons" enlisted in the Iranian military. Can you imagine them with nuclear weapons? Scary thought.

Safety tip of the day, don't use steel/brass pots.... Just saying...

originally posted by: Zaphod58
Protests have begun in Iran demanding the Ayatollah step down. The Iranian government also detained the British ambassador.

Wouldn't this be just crazy if this one move toppled the Goverment there...

originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: StallionDuck

I honestly couldn't rule out US involvement. I know the things we've done in the past for the sake of war and to push others to get involved in that war.

Direct quote .
Now , what didn't you say ?

I think you confused my words a bit. Let me clarify:

I honestly couldn't rule out US involvement. I know the things we've done in the past for the sake of war and to push others to get involved in that war.

And you said:

So , in your fantasy world , Iran would have spoken up and stated that they accidentally shot a commercial airline down ?
And the Iranian government is covering up for the US ?

Which I didn't get or understand.

What I meant was - Before anyone took the blame for this, the US hadn't said much. To me, it was almost like that silence before the $#!% went down.

At that point, based on our past and the way we've (The US) have meddled and conspiracies we've spoken of here on ATS... It wouldn't have surprised me if it really had been the US. Now we know it wasn't. But... Had the 'conspiracy' or blame been laid on the US and the US really had done it, it wouldn't have surprised me. That's all I meant.

As for Iran taking the blame for the US - I didn't relate this at all. I do believe Iran and the US are enemies and there isn't a buddy buddy cover-up. So I was only speaking in past tense.

a reply to: StallionDuck

At that point, based on our past and the way we've (The US) have meddled and conspiracies we've spoken of here on ATS... It wouldn't have surprised me if it really had been the US.

You would've had to have been an idiot to at least not contemplate the possibility.

But I guess we now know what actually happened... Iran probably went to great strategical lengths to retaliate in a way that would allow them to keep there dignity but not cause American casualties.

But then inevitably came the 'fog of war'... and as a result, innocent civilians lost their lives.