Is the Pillar of Cloud in the Bible the same as cigar shaped U.F.O.'s today?

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: joelr


Exodus 24:18 - And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: a/b]

This wasn't something Moses saw in the sky. The vehicle carried Moses into the mountains.

The pillar wasn't something they just saw in the sky. The cloudy pillar descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle.

Exodus 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. Exodus 40:35 And Moses was not able to enter into

Since you say you like "common sense" should you not look to the most educated people on the subject?
This paper traces the "pillar of clouds and fire" from the original Israelite main God - EL. El and other main gods all lived on mountains and often traveled in storms. Yahweh was a storm god associated with clouds.
Does this not sound like a myth?

Israelite religion emerged was accordingly Canaanite.[33] El, "the kind, the compassionate", "the creator of creatures", was the chief of the Canaanite gods,[34] and he, not Yahweh, was the original "God of Israel"—the word "Israel" is based on the name El rather than Yahweh.[35] He lived in a tent on a mountain from whose base originated all the fresh waters of the world, with the goddess Asherah as his consort.[34][36]

This pair made up the top tier of the Canaanite pantheon;[34] the second tier was made up of their children, the "seventy sons of Athirat" (a variant of the name Asherah).[37] Prominent in this group was Baal, who had his home on Mount Zaphon; over time Baal became the dominant Canaanite deity, so that El became the executive power and Baal the military power in the cosmos.[38] Baal's sphere was the thunderstorm with its life-giving rains, so that he was also a fertility god, although not quite the fertility god.[39] Below the seventy second-tier gods was a third tier made up of comparatively minor craftsman and trader deities, with a fourth and final tier of divine messengers and the like.[37] El and his sons made up the Assembly of the Gods, each member of which had a human nation under his care, and a textual variant of Deuteronomy 32:8–9 describes El dividing the nations of the world among his sons, with Yahweh receiving Israel:"

"In the earliest literature such as the Song of the Sea (Exodus 15:1–18, celebrating Yahweh's victory over Egypt at the exodus), Yahweh is a warrior for his people, a storm-god typical of ancient Near Eastern myths, marching out from a region to the south or south-east of Israel with the heavenly host of stars and planets that make up his army.["

Yahweh rode through the heavens on clouds because he was a storm god.

"There is none like God, O Jeshurun (i.e., Israel)
who rides through the heavens to your help … duet 33:26-29



ALl this is here:
en.wikipedia.org...


This paper looks at the pillar of cloud myth and traces it back through earlier gods (reading the original language) and gives possible origins.

www.jstor.org...


"The pillar of cloud served as graphic, literary and theological symbol within the Yahwistic narrative of crossing the sea"

"Moreover, much of the textual evidence revised in this paper reveals the continuous undercurrent of the mythological storm motif, which is the source of the pillar of cloud and i.e. behind the poetic description of Yahweh's coming from Sinai"

"The classic poetic texts speak of Yahweh's coming from Sinai in mythological terms identical with the background of the cloud motif…"


"With this background of cultic use of the ark as a war palladium and as a divine guide, we may turn to Exodus 13-14. Here it becomes immediately apparent that the pillar of cloud and fire serves this dual function exactly"


"Much of this evidence suggests the picture of the storm/fertility god Baal as the "rider of the clouds", and similar expressions for Yahweh. Clouds are here often interchangeable with cherubim, as Yahweh rides through the heavens on the wings of these creatures (Ps 18:11)."


"It is not difficult to understand how the 'nn (messenger) of Canaanite storm deities could later come to mean "cloud" when associated with Yahweh…"


The Wiki entry on Pillar of Cloud shows it's clearly used by Israelites as a manifestation of God?
en.wikipedia.org...

It guided them all day and all night. It spoke to them. Guided them through the desert?
So you think that what actually happened is that ufo ships actually showed up, spent days shining lights on a hebrew tribe, spoke to them acting as Yahweh, gave actual testimonies and statutes that Yahweh would say, in the correct language?
Ufo aliens did this? You think that is common sense? Even though we can trace the mythology to storm gods (Yahweh was a storm god) and arks (particularly Baal and his 3 daughters who rode clouds - see article in journal)


again here:
en.wikipedia.org...(theophany)

it's clear these myths are to demonstrate their God was always with them. In fact Exodus is yet another mythic story?

en.wikipedia.org...

"The Exodus is the charter myth of the Israelites."

"The consensus of modern scholars is that the Bible does not give an accurate account of the origins of Israel, which formed as an entity in the central highlands of Canaan in the late second millennium BCE from the indigenous Canaanite culture.[6][7][8] Most scholars believe that the story of the Exodus has some historical basis, but that any such basis has little resemblance to the story told in the Bible.[9][10] There is a widespread agreement that the composition of the Torah or Pentateuch, the biblical books which contain the Exodus narrative, took place in the Middle Persian Period"

This is the position of scholarship. If you have a conspiracy theory or an unsupported crank theory that's fine. But calling that "common sense" is ridiculous. Common sense says the people who devote their lives to study of a topic, who then reach a consensus is our best current version of truth.

Even if I was reading a paper on Zeus and one of the myths actually mentioned something that sounded like a ufo, like his son Hercules rode on a black triangle with 3 lights on the sides and a red orb in the middle and a row of multi-colored lights across the back… I would think that maybe the author of that scripture saw a black triangle ufo and incorporated into a fictional story about a demigod. It doesn't mean I believe Greek mythology?


Oh, Ezekiel saw aliens and they had calf feet, 4 wings and 4 faces. The faces were - man face, lion face, ox face, eagle face.
So some aliens comes down and just happened to evolve 4 faces, all being faces of a different Earth creature?
Then they fly around and god jumps in and starts speaking and it goes back to the normal killing, famine, threats and then later cherubim's appear and stuff happens in a celestial temple.
The alien ship is just described as wheels and later the cherubim's are also riding wheels. I went right to Ezeke, looks like myths rather than ufo tales.
OR, he saw a ufo and wrote a ridiculous story about 4 animal head aliens? Still myth.

a reply to: joelr

You sound a little unhinged. This is because you're listing opinion and saying you must read the Bible as myth and fantasy. Don't you see how asinine that is? You haven't refuted anything I have said. In fact, UFO's today are seen around mountains.

UFO sightings can happen anywhere. Over land, over water, at night or day, in the open countryside where the populations are sparse, or over cities with buildings that reach ever more upward to the cosmic heavens—any of these places can become the stage for an encounter with the unexplained.However, and perhaps for good reason if you subscribe to the theories of alien bases hiding within them, many mountains and their cave systems seem to be magnets for such activity. Here are ten examples of mountains and caves from around the world that have long histories of UFO and extraterrestrial activity .

listverse.com...









In fact, Mount Musine in Italy has been associated with UFO activity and is connected to Constantine.

Well, also the surroundings are no less mysterious, as the “case” of the mysterious Monte Musinè. Where an ancient volcano existed thousands of years ago with many galleries and irregular paths largely unexplored due to various UFO sightings , but not only. We are in Susa Valley, in the area of ​​Rivoli and Lakes Avigliana where they were shot some exterior shots of “The Name of the Rose.”

Sensational episodes got the media attention on 3rd March of 1996 when two hikers saw – or at least claimed to see – a bright object from the circular shape and the yellow-green, fluttering in the sky for more than a quarter of an hour. The object – always according to the statements of the two spectators had two large cups transparent through which could be seen moving apparently humanoid shapes. The location of the sighting was, in fact, the Monte Musinè, which is a major left somewhat inhospitable, bleak and decaying plant where no or no vegetation can take root, only bushes and weeds inhabited by vipers. The most popular version is that this mountain is a secret base of “flying saucers”, but other than UFOs and extraterrestrials, there are other features associated with this place that, not surprisingly, has been called the most mysterious mountain in Italy.

www.latest-ufos.com...



A local tradition states that it was near Mount Musinè (and therefore not during the Battle of the Milvian Bridge) that the emperor Constantine I saw a flaming cross and the words In hoc signo vinces shortly before the Battle of Turin (312) against his rival Maxentius, which he won. [8]

en.wikipedia.org...

Here's more:

Jesus’ ministry often occurred near seas and water. There are many accounts of him teaching on boats. But many of the pivotal sermons occurred on mountain tops. In the Old Testament, we find that worship occurred in the temple, but that many significant moments happened on mountain tops. In those days, God was in Heaven and mountains were a way to get close to the heavens. Between the breathtaking views and the important revelations, mountains became symbols of being close to God. Even those who are non religious find themselves in awe of the experiences on the tops of modern mountains. Mountains became a place to experience God, and they still are.

www.travelledpaths.com...



Mt. Sinai



Mt. Ararat



Mt. Carmel

Your post actually strengthens my point.

If extraterrestrials/extradimensional beings are actually from Earth or are solar system, they could have bases and cities in mountains.

So this pillar in the cloud(cigar shaped U.F.O.) hovered, descended and carried people up into mountains. Here's a recent thread about this and it's a really good read.

New Video On Underground ET Base In Alaska Described By Remote Viewers

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Sorry, but you have no argument. You can't dictate how everyone must read the Bible. That just shows your desperation.

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: joelr

You sound a little unhinged. This is because you're listing opinion and saying you must read the Bible as myth and fantasy. Don't you see how asinine that is? You haven't refuted anything I have said. In fact, UFO's today are seen around mountains.

So by "unhinged" you mean calmly demonstrating how scholarship doesn't support your opinion. Funny how you need to keep up with all sorts of ad-hom, (unhinged, no sense, desperate)it reveals your insecurities.

For the 4th time I do not care how you read the bible. But believing it's ufo related can be disproven by demonstrating first that the bible is known to be mythic, that the descriptions of clouds are taken from older storm god myths and that none of these events actually took place in history.

Calling the entire biblical historicity fields consensus "asinine" is excellent confirmation that you've completely lost and are resorting to denial and slander. The denial is the part where you pretend you didn't say several incorrect things about history (especially Rome) and were schooled. Some people lose and learn and some just keep being ignorant.

originally posted by: neoholographic
UFO sightings can happen anywhere. Over land, over water, at night or day, in the open countryside where the populations are sparse, or over cities wite unexplained.However, and perhaps for good reason if you subscribe to the theories of alien bases hiding within them, many mountains and

Yes ufo sightings happen. The mythic stories in the bible have no relation to these sightings as I've shown.

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: joelrIn fact, Mount Musine in Italy has been associated with UFO activity and is connected to Constantine.

So? Maybe Constantine saw a ufo and thought it was an angel and was thinking about Christianity and decided to give credit to the Christian god when he won the battle? So?


neoholographic

Well, also the surroundings are no less mysterious, as the “case” of the mysterious Monte Musinè. Whers UFO sightings , but not only. We are in Susa Valley, in the area of ​​Rivoli and Lakes Avigliana ior shots of “The Name of the Rose.”

Sensational episodes got the media attention on 3rd March of 1996 when two hikers saw – or at least claimed to see – a bright object from the circular shape and the yellow-green, fluttering in the sky for more than a quarter of an hour. The object – always according to the statements of the two spectators had two large cups transparent through which could be s.

Again, where are the ufo sightings about pillars of light that light people through the desert for days, speak to them and follow them around everywhere? Those are myths.
Constantine did not report a ufo, he saw a light with words in the sky - "Ἐν Τούτῳ Νίκα".
Sounds like a tall tale. Even if he saw a ufo…..who cares? Then he went and converted to a mystery religion which was still a myth?
One looks to evidence - how many ufo sightings are a burning cross with Ἐν Τούτῳ Νίκα on it? Hmmm, only one from an Emperor looking to convert to Christianity? Gee Mr common sense do you think this is an urban legend?!

Where are the ufo reports that appear to have religious words written on them, or ufos light a desert during an entire exodus across a desert? Appearing as a cloud during the day to show direction and fire at night to guide the way.

originally posted by: neoholographic
Jesus’ But many of the pivotal sermons occurred on mountain tops. In the Old Testament, we find that worship occurred in the temple, but that many significant moments happened on mountain tops. In those days, God was in Heaven and mountains were a way to get close to the heavens. Between the breathtaking views and the important revelations, mountains became symbols of being close to God. Even those who are non religious find themselves in awe of the experiences on the tops of modern mountains. Mountains became a place to experience God, and they still are.

More so what. Thousands of people climb mountains. Ufo sightings are still very rare. But we have already been over this. The stories in the OT are MYTHICAL TALES. Writers wrote stories about teachings on mountains because that is part of all religious mythology. Greek myths, Indian, all myths have mountain sermons?

Yes mountains are nice, this is why writers of scripture put gods to live on top of them? This does not mean the biblical god-myths are true?

originally posted by: neoholographic
Your post actually strengthens my point.

If extraterrestrials/extradimensional beings are actually from Earth or are solar system, they could have bases and cities in mountains.

So this pillar in the cloud(cigar shaped U.F.O.) hovered, descended and carried people up into mountains. Here's a recent thread about this and it's a really good read.

We have established this cloud/fire pillar is god-speak rather than ufo stories.
Now demonstrate even some modern instances of ufo ships carrying people up mountains and back down, lighting their way through deserts and speaking god-like phrases to them..

Also reports not of grey aliens but 4 headed lion, ox, eagle, man faced aliens….

originally posted by: neoholographicNew Video On Underground ET Base In Alaska Described By Remote Viewers

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Wait…he he... your new line of evidence is remote viewing….Ha. A project disbanded in 1995? If a remote viewing program worked the military would be spending billions of dollars and actively requiting people, publicly, to scoop up the best esp people. Heh, remote viewing and underground base is your comeback. Ha, from the "common sense" guy???

originally posted by: neoholographic
Sorry, but you have no argument. You can't dictate how everyone must read the Bible. That just shows your desperation.

Really, again with this? I actually did lay out a long argument with several sources, papers, what a rational person would say is "I don't agree with this argument". When you say I have NO argument it's clear your either in denial or just playing games. Either way you are terrible at any type of reasonable debate.

Let's say it again for the 5th time. I do not care how you read the bible. I'mm saying the evidence supports biblical stories as complete mythic events written only to give glory to a pretend god and his minions (monolithic religion - one divine being who is worshipped and other lesser divinities like angels and 4 face winged flying people).

There is no evidence to suggest any alien visitation in any biblical myth.
When you keep saying someone else is "desperate" it's definitely seems more like the desperation lies with you!

a reply to: joelr

You said:

We have established this cloud/fire pillar is god-speak rather than ufo stories. Now demonstrate even some modern instances of ufo ships carrying people up mountains and back down, lighting their way through deserts and speaking god-like phrases to them..

This is where you're just delusional.

You haven't established anything. You've just repeated your opinion that everything in the Bible must be myth and fantasy. Again, that's your belief.

You said:

There is no evidence to suggest any alien visitation in any biblical myth.

There's plenty of evidence that points to an extraterrestrial/extradimensional visitation. There's no evidence to support the Bible is a myth outside of your head.

I have laid out in this thread plenty of evidence. Most of your post have been about Constantine and I showed how you were wrong about that.

Just saying there's no evidence without refuting any of the evidence laid out in the thread makes no sense. You still keep saying vacuous things like this:

The stories in the OT are MYTHICAL TALES.

You have a hard time with comprehending that this is just your opinion no matter how many times you capitalize mythical LOL.

Now, back to the topic of the thread. The thread isn't about your opinion that everyone should read the Bible as you dictate. This thread is about clear examples of the Bible as evidence of an extraterrestrial/extradimensional visitation.

Luke 9

34. While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36. And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

They entered the cloud but soon as the voice finished speaking, it was just them and Jesus.

Did the Disciples ENTER into the cloud?

Luke 9:34. While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

Did the cloud carry Moses into the Mountain?

Exodus 24:18 - And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.

Did the cloud hover over the tabernacle?

Exodus 40:34 and 35 - Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. 35. And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

Here's another excellent thread on this:

The Ultimate Guide to Aircraft & Spacecraft in Ancient Scripture

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The contrast of that evidently clear passage with the quite hazy pictures sketched by the rest of the chapter made me realize that the prophet could not have known what it was he had seen, or could not have understood it. I realize the necessary consequences of this: the prophet could only describe his encounters with space vehicles and their crews in the terms available to him—with words and comparisons familiar to him and his contemporaries. So I began taking Ezekiel seriously, in an engineering sense.

www.spaceshipsofezekiel.com...

Here's more about Blumrich.

A native of Steyr, Austria, engineer Blumrich is the holder of patents on numerous inventions.

Until recently the author was chief of the Systems Layout Branch at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center. In earlier years, he developed the structural design of the Saturn V booster and participated in the design of Skylab. He has left NASA in order to spend his full time on research concerning extraterrestrial visitors in ancient times.

He wrote the book Da tat sich der Himmel auf (The Spaceships of Eziekel)

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Here's what Blumrich drew.



Look, I understand why people want the Bible to be a book of fairy tales full of magical metaphors. This way the atheist, material, pseudoskeptic can say it has nothing to do with things that's real. If the Bible is talking about things like U.F.O's and genetic engineering, then it hits close to home and becomes all too real.

I know it's easier for some to turn the Bible into a fairy tale of metaphors but it's clearly describing extraterrestrial/extradimensional visitation.

Again, you fail to realize,, your opinion doesn't dictate how other people must read the scriptures. The most you can say is you don't agree with what I'm saying. You can't say what I'm saying can't be true because you believe the Bible is just myth and fantasy and everyone must agree with you.

You have to see how asinine this sounds or maybe you don't.

The title of this thread is:

Is the Pillar of Cloud in the Bible the same as cigar shaped U.F.O.'s today?

I didn't say, you must believe that the Pillar of Cloud in the Bible is the same as a cigar shaped U.F.O. Your posts can be summed up in this way:

The stories in the OT are MYTHICAL TALES.

This shows how weak your arguments are.

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: neoholographic
Here's the important point:

Christianity has become the largest Religion in the world.

First, if Jesus died, why did the Disciples become more determined to spread Christianity? Many religions came and went after the leader died. Not so with Christianity.

Next, the conversion of Saul to Paul. Again, why Christianity? Why go from someone persecuting and having Christians killed to risking your life for Christ?

Lastly, why Constantine? Why did Constantine have such a profound experience with Christianity that he had his soldiers draw Christian symbols on their shields in the middle of a civil war. An illegal religion at the time and it only made up 5% of the population at the time.

Why Christianity? When Jesus was killed,why didn't it just flame out? Jesus was not well known. It was a world of 300 million people and Jesus probably came into contact with about 3,000 people and direct contact with even less people. How did this become the biggest religion in the world?

Why didn't Paul have a vision of Jupiter or Constantine have a vision of Mithra since you say Mithra was extremely popular with his troops?

Yes, Christianity is the most popular religion on Earth, but what's that supposed to mean?

What do you think is the reason for Christianity's popularity?

It means a lot.

You have to ask, why Christianity?

When Christ died and if he wasn't resurrected, why did Christianity continue?

Why did Saul become Paul after persecuting Christians? Again, why Christianity?

Why did Constantine elevate a small, illegal religion when other gods and religions were more popular?

So, it means a lot.

I think it became popular because God wanted to give people a chance to accept Christ. In Daniel, it says

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

This is a very important point.

God will give every soul a chance to come to Christ through reincarnation. Say you die and you never had the chance to learn about and accept Christ. You might be reincarnated into a home where your parents are religious.

Transgressors will come to the full when all souls have had a chance to accept Christ. This is why Christianity had to become the biggest religion on the planet.

Ask yourself, why Christianity. According to some in this thread, Paul and Constantine had the choice of more popular gods and religions to turn to. Yet, one converted to a religion he persecuted and the other converted to a small, illegal religion where half of his Army and Senators followed the popular Mithra religion.

Christianity had to become the worlds biggest religion in order to allow the transgressors to come to full. When that happens, the end will come like a flood and sadly there will be those who rejected Christ and they will go into perdition with the fallen ones.

originally posted by: neoholographic
I think it became popular because God wanted to give people a chance to accept Christ.

So, you think it became popular because it's true, while the others are not?

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: joelr

This is where you're just delusional.

You haven't established anything. You've just repeated your opinion that everything in the Bible must be myth and fantasy. that's your belief.

Yes I have established that the pillar of clouds/fire is a mythic device and even traced it's origins back to early Caananite myths.
Again, for the 5th time, I'm not giving my opinion on the mythic nature of scripture, this is what the evidence suggests.
Anyone can still believe or "have faith" but the evidence shows Jesus, Romulus, Innana and other demo-gods are fiction.

originally posted by: neoholographic

There's plenty of evidence that points to an extraterrestrial/extradimensional visitation. There's no evidence to support the Bible is a myth outside of your head.

Who is delusional now?
Is this fact from scholarship "in my head"??

en.wikipedia.org...
"Moses (/ˈmoʊzɪz, -zɪs/)[2][Note 1] was a prophet according to the teachings of the Abrahamic religions. Scholarly consensus sees Moses as a legendary figure and not a historical person,[3][4] while retaining the possibility that a Moses-like figure existed."

Nope. So therefore you are demonstrably wrong.

originally posted by: neoholographic
I have laid out in this thread plenty of evidence. Most of your post have been about Constantine and I showed how you were wrong about that.

I corrected you (with sources) that Christianity was 5% of Rome in 3AD (you said this "wasn't common sense", that was your source LOL)

I corrected you that Mithriasim was a large part of the Roman army in 3AD. Your claim was it wasn't "common sense" and that was your only source.

Also that the conversion was believed to be political.

Denial doesn't work in a forum because anyone can just look at the previous thread? Being shown to have incorrect facts is fine but then denying it is just weird? I'm embarrassed for you.

originally posted by: neoholographicJust saying there's no evidence without refuting any of the evidence laid out in the thread makes no sense. You still keep saying vacuous things like this:

The stories in the OT are MYTHICAL TALES.

You have a hard time with comprehending that this is just your opinion no matter how many times you capitalize mythical LOL.

Wait, are you not reading my quotes and sources? Nothing I say is without some source from scholarship. Have you caught on to this trend yet? Are you going to catch on at some point?

The first peer-reviewed accepted work in the historicity field that established the mythic nature of the OT was Thomas Thompsons work:

Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives
www.amazon.com...

"Completely dismantles the historic patriarchal narratives. His impeccable scholarship, his astounding mastery of the sources, and rigorous detailed examination of the archaeological claims makes this book one I will immediately take with me in case of a flood. And it still hasn't been refuted."

Should I re-post the interview with archeologist William Denver? You realize these are not "in my head"?

originally posted by: neoholographicThe thread isn't about your opinion that everyone should read the Bible as you dictate. This thread is about clear examples of the Bible as evidence of an extraterrestrial/extradimensional visitation.

For the 6th time, none of this is how "I dictate". This is all from PhD scholarship.

originally posted by: neoholographic

Exodus 24:18 - And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.

Did the cloud hover over the tabernacle?

Exodus 40:34 and 35 - Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. 35. And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

Wow, cloud imagery in mythic religious scripture, never saw that before? Maybe it's because it's about god and heavenly things?


Here is an image of Krishna riding on a cloud, taken from a Vedic poem:
www.novica.com...

in religious scripture gods do stuff with clouds. In all mythologies. So not ufo related?

originally posted by: neoholographic

The contrast of that evidently clear passage with the quite hazy pictures sketched by the rest of the chapter made me realize that the prophet could not have known what it was he had seen, or could not have understood it. I realize the necessary consequences of this: the prophet could only describe his encounters with space vehicles and

I read Ezekiel. The aliens have a 4-animal face and wings. Hmmm, maybe angels? The craft is "a wheel" and then "a wheel".

originally posted by: neoholographic
NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center. In earlier years, he developed the structural design of the Saturn V booster and participated in the design of S

You don't need a NASA engineer to explain wheels in wheels?
As explained here:
www.skeptic.com...

this was a vision about a divine messenger from god, the Israel myths about cherubim fit the "aliens"
"The symbolism expressed in this depiction of the cherubim is one of supremacy: The eagle is the foremost bird, the lion the foremost wild beast, and the bull the foremost domestic beast. All of these, coupled with human intelligence (symbolized by the man’s head, or in Ezekiel’s vision, a face) were indications of the godlike power of the cherub….They were angels.

God sits enthroned on a firmament resting on the cherubim. All of the symbolism fits that of the ancient near east. The firmament over the living creatures, upon which God sits enthroned, represents the firmament of heaven — the dome of the sky — to which the stars were fixed and over the surface of which the sun and moon traveled according to the ancient near eastern model of the cosmos."

If those who want to see the living creatures as space aliens would read more of Ezekiel they would find an almost identical vision in Ezekiel 10. There the prophet identifies the beings as cherubim, and says in verse 15 that they were the living beings he saw in his first vision.

Finally, let us consider what Moshe Greenberg said in his commentary on Ezekiel, 1–20, volume 22 of the Anchor Bible (p. 58):

Virtually every component of Ezekiel’s vision can thus be derived from Israelite tradition supplemented by neighboring iconography — none of the above cited elements of which need have been outside the range of the ordinary Israelite.

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: joelr

Look, I understand why people want the Bible to be a book of fairy tales full of magical metaphors. This way the atheist, material, pseudoskeptic can say it has nothing to do with things that's real. If the Bible is talking about things like U.F.O's and genetic engineering, then it hits close to home and becomes all too real.

I thought we covered this? If people writing scripture saw ufos and incorporated them into the stories that makes no difference?
If I read a tale about Krishna riding on a flying saucer I wouldn't go "oh wow Krishna must be real". I would think the writers who wrote those myths maybe saw a ufo and had their demigod interact with it.
The bible is mythology weather the Israelites saw ufos or not? Even if ufos came down and landed and said hi to a Greek writer that doesn't mean Zeus is a real god throwing lightning?
How hard is this to understand?

originally posted by: neoholographic

I know it's easier for some to turn the Bible into a fairy tale of metaphors but it's clearly describing extraterrestrial/extradimensional visitation.

Why would it be "easier"? That's just how it is. First ALL of the imagery fits with typical near-east mythic imagery so it's not ufo related at all. It's god-related, and angels.

If you bother to actually read the article:
www.skeptic.com...

you can see everything fits into the iconography of the myths of the region.


" Virtually every component of Ezekiel’s vision can thus be derived from Israelite tradition supplemented by neighboring iconography — none of the above cited elements of which need have been outside the range of the ordinary Israelite."

originally posted by: neoholographicAgain, you fail to realize,, your opinion doesn't dictate how other people must read the scriptures. The most you can say is you don't agree with what I'm saying. You can't say what I'm saying can't be true because you believe the Bible is just myth and fantasy and everyone must agree with you.

And, here we go, time number 6 (think?)…are you even reading my posts??….This is not my opinion and there IS MORE I CAN SAY…that the evidence from historicity and archeology give endless evidence that these are myths same as Greek myths and Roman myths.
You can read it as you like. Evidence doesn't support it and the evidence does not support any ufo related activity at all.

originally posted by: neoholographic

Is the Pillar of Cloud in the Bible the same as cigar shaped U.F.O.'s today?

I didn't say, you must believe that the Pillar of Cloud in the Bible is the same as a cigar shaped U.F.O. Your posts can be summed up in this way:

The stories in the OT are MYTHICAL TALES.

This shows how weak your arguments are.

Maybe if that's what my argument was but it isn't that.

First, NO the pillar of cloud is not the same as cigar shaped ufos?
I really need say that? Pillar of clouds stay around for years, they speak god-speak to people, they carry people around, they carry angels around, they carry gods around, they envelope tents for long periods of time, AND SO ON..

Cigar ufos are seem briefly flying in the sky. That's it. Show me the NUFORC report where a cigar ufo was giving statutes and god-messages to tribes of people and lit their entire journey across a nation and changed to clouds during the day and fire at night.

Next, these stories are typical of the cosmogony, iconography, and all things mythic from the Bronze Age near east so assuming they are just stories …EMBELLISHED stories to talk about their god is almost 100% exactly what they are.

Finally the worlds leading biblical archeologist is saying "do not read the bible as history"????????? These are not events?

www.pbs.org...

Look, words from outside my head…..


"Have biblical archeologists traditionally tried to find evidence that events in the Bible really happened?


The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people.

Yet many people want to know whether the events of the Bible are real, historic events.

We want to make the Bible history. Many people think it has to be history or nothing. But there is no word for history in the Hebrew Bible. In other words, what did the biblical writers think they were doing? Writing objective history? No. That's a modern discipline. They were telling stories. They wanted you to know what these purported events mean.

The Bible is didactic literature; it wants to teach, not just to describe. We try to make the Bible something it is not, and that's doing an injustice to the biblical writers.
I like to point out to my undergraduate students that the Bible is not history; it's his story—Yahweh's story, God's story. [Yahweh is an ancient Israelite name for God.]

But I think it does mean what happened was rather more modest. And the biblical writers have enlarged the story."

a reply to: neoholographic

Actually, the Bible is filled with people witnessing natural events that they could not explain, so being a fearful emerging people, naturally it may have fantasized due to fear.

originally posted by: neoholographic

It means a lot.

You have to ask, why Christianity?

When Christ died and if he wasn't resurrected, why did Christianity continue?

Why did Saul become Paul after persecuting Christians? Again, why Christianity?
Why did Constantine elevate a small, illegal religion when other gods and religions were more popular?

Constantine converted for possibly political reasons and his mother was Christian. Paul converted to the updated savior-god version of Judaism. Christ was the last demigod savior figure that most other mystery religions already had and so many Jews were eager to update their movement as well.
Instead of using annual substitutionary atonement blood magic every year at the temple by killing goats, savior gods allowed for permanent anti-sin-magic. At the time it was popular.
The Jews encountered concepts like heaven/hell, end of world in fire, good god vs evil god when they were invaded by the Persians. After that the concepts slowly started showing up in the OT.

en.wikipedia.org...
" Major features of Zoroastrianism, such as messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[7] Christianity, Islam,[8] the Bahá'í Faith, and Buddhism.[9]"

2 people converting lends zero credibility to something being true. We can say the exact same thing about Hindu, Muslim and literally every cult ever.

Christianity remained fairly small for 300 years. But why would it not die out if it wasn't true?
Why hasn't Hinduism dies out? Or every other religion that you believe isn't true?
Believing in something is fine but having bad reasons to believe something are fallacies people should be aware of.

None of these are reasons to think something is true.

Christianity was not "illegal" in 313.

a reply to: joelr

The thing is that we did not witness any of this so we have to rely on second or third or fourth hand scribes who may have or may not have gotten it right.

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: joelr

The thing is that we did not witness any of this so we have to rely on second or third or fourth hand scribes who may have or may not have gotten it right.

Yup. And decades AFTER the (supposed) events

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: joelr

The thing is that we did not witness any of this so we have to rely on second or third or fourth hand scribes who may have or may not have gotten it right.

I know what you are saying but the gospels for example are not recollections of events decades earlier. They are very carefully high level myths that employ all sorts of mythic devices, ring structure, Markan sandwiches, transformations of the OT stories and so on. It's not recollection it's high level myth writing.
Many of the Jesus stories are re-writes of Moses, Elija and so on.


At 16:00 PhD Carrier goes over several examples of NT stories being transformations, exact-reverse or same events as OT stories.
www.youtube.com...

The idea was to update the religion which had a prophecy of a savior god (taken from every other mystery religion) to now actually have their own Jewish savior god. So someone wrote Mark using OT stories and an incredible skill at literary devices.
The other gospels are written using Mark. We know this because over 50% of the original Greek is in the other gospels word for word.
Religious people call that the "synoptic problem". But it's not a problem for non-Christians.

"They are also composed in Koine Greek and the majority of Mark and roughly half of Matthew and Luke coincide in content, in much the same sequence, often nearly verbatim."


So they sort of did get it right for what they set out to do. But also there were 40 known gospels from Gnostic to Marconian to adoptionism and so on….The established canon is a response to an earlier Marcionite version and over the 1st 200 years the Gnostics and others battled it out for who is correct.
At the Nicean Council in 313 all the Roman Bishops took all the current gospels and made the now official version.
But cosmopolitan, sin-forgiving, rising, savior gods who get you into the good afterlife were already a thing before Christianity. SO they were definitely borrowing stories (religious syncretism)


Carrier references many accepted works like "Acts as Historical Fiction" which demonstrates Acts is a travel narrative taken from Homer and so on.

The entire video is very good but if you are not interested in the subject it would be boring.
Carrier is a biblical PhD specializing in Jesus historicity but cites many other works.

Carrier has several videos and many debates with scholars online as well.

a reply to: joelr

You said:

Yes I have established that the pillar of clouds/fire is a mythic device and even traced it's origins back to early Caananite myths. Again, for the 5th time, I'm not giving my opinion on the mythic nature of scripture, this is what the evidence suggests. Anyone can still believe or "have faith" but the evidence shows Jesus, Romulus, Innana and other demo-gods are fiction.

This is just a flat out lie. Jesus is a historical figure and most scholars agree.

The historicity of Jesus relates to whether Jesus of Nazareth was a historical figure. Virtually all scholars who have investigated the history of the Christian movement find that the historicity of Jesus is effectively certain,[1][2][3] and standard historical criteria have aided in reconstructing his life.[4] However, scholars differ on the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the gospels.[5][6][7][note 1] Despite this, very few scholars have argued for non-historicity and have not succeeded due to abundance of evidence to the contrary.[8]

The question of the historicity of Jesus is part of the study of the historical Jesus as undertaken in the quest for the historical Jesus and the scholarly reconstructions of the life of Jesus, based primarily on critical analysis of the gospel texts and applying the standard criteria of critical-historical investigation,[9][10][11] and methodologies for analyzing the reliability of primary sources and other historical evidence.[12]

While scholars have criticized Jesus scholarship for lack of methodological soundness or consistency,[note 2] with very few exceptions such critics generally do support the historicity of Jesus and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed.[14][15][16][17][note 3]

en.wikipedia.org...

Again, your argument is just illogical. You can't dictate how other people read scriptures. You desperately want everyone to think as you do.

You then said:

Here is an image of Krishna riding on a cloud, taken from a Vedic poem: www.novica.com...

Is this a joke?

Here's the pic you linked to. It makes sense that you only have 9 flags on your posts. You either flat out lie or you make it up. There's a reason why you didn't post the picture.



In fact, U.F.O.s has been captured in religious imagery.













What's striking about these paintings is the Artists were just capturing religious imagery. You said:

Wow, cloud imagery in mythic religious scripture, never saw that before? Maybe it's because it's about god and heavenly things?

Okay, since it's common, show me the other text where disciples enter into a cloud after a voice comes out of the cloud.

Luke 9

34. While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

35. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36. And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Since it's common, show me the text from other religions where a cloud carries someone into the mountains after they went into the midst of the cloud.

Exodus 24:18 - And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.

Since it's common, show me the other religious text that shows a pillar of the cloud hovering in front of a group of people then moving behind them between them and the people following them while providing light at night to the people the cloud is leading.

Exodus 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

14:20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.

Since it's common, show me the text outside of the Bible that has a cloud that descends, a voice comes out of the cloud and the cloud hovers over the tent of congregation. Oh yeah, the light from the cloud fills the tent and nobody can enter the tent as the cloud hovers over the tent.

Exodus 33:9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood [at] the door of the tabernacle, and [the LORD] talked with Moses.

Exodus 40:34 and 35 - Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. 35. And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

You say:

"Moses (/ˈmoʊzɪz, -zɪs/)[2][Note 1] was a prophet according to the teachings of the Abrahamic religions. Scholarly consensus sees Moses as a legendary figure and not a historical person,[3][4] while retaining the possibility that a Moses-like figure existed."

This is just idiotic. If a Moses like figure existed then Moses is a historical person. The Israelites could have called him Moses but the Egyptians called him by another name.

Thutmose III is believed by some to be the Pharoah in the time of Moses. This could point to the identity of Moses and also point to the involvement of U.F.O.'s involved in the Exodus. You can see why the Vatican might have hidden this. Let's look closer at Thutmose III.

Thutmose III came to power when he was less than 2 years old. So his Fathers main wife, he was born to a minor wife, ruled as his Regent for 22 years. She was basically Pharoah. Her name was Queen Hatshepsut. Some believe Hatshepsut was the Pharoah's daughter who found and raised Moses. Is there a Commoner around who gets high rank? Yes, his name is Senenmut. Here's more:

Senenmut was of low commoner birth....Senenmut first enters the historical record on a national level as the "Steward of the God's Wife" (Hatshepsut) and "Steward of the King's Daughter" (Neferure). Some Egyptologists place Senenmut's entry into royal service during the reign of Thutmose I, but it is far more likely that it occurred during either the reign of Thutmose II or while Hatshepsut was still regent and not pharaoh. After Hatshepsut was crowned pharaoh, Senenmut was given more prestigious titles and became high steward of the king....Although it is not known where he is buried, Senenmut had a chapel and a tomb constructed for himself.The chapel is at (TT71) in the Tombs of the Nobles and the tomb is at (TT353), near Hatshepsut's mortuary temple, and contains a famous star ceiling. They were both heavily vandalized during the reign of Thutmose III, perhaps during the latter's campaign to eradicate all trace of Hatshepsut's memory.

Has the Biblical Moses Been Identified in Secular Egyptian Records?

a reply to: joelr

Senemut’s high standing in the court during the reign of Hatshepsut, coupled with him being wiped from the Egyptian historical narrative, and the correlation between the biblical and Egyptian dating, would suggest therefore that he was the person we know from the Bible as Moses.

Thutmose III first born Amenemhat died before his Father so his second son Amenhotep II became Pharoah after him.

Some say when Hatshepsut died, there was a falling out between Thutmose III and Senenmut. He left and came back as Moses.

Either Thutmose III or Amenhotep II tried to erase Hatshepsut and Senenmut from memory. What could they have done? Erasing them from memory back then was like erasing them for all eternity.

Were they upset because Hatshepsut gave Senenmut(Moses) so much power and he's responsible for the death of their Son/Brother and more?

Again, your link says Moses is a historical figure just not named Moses by Egyptians. You said:

First, NO the pillar of cloud is not the same as cigar shaped ufos? I really need say that? Pillar of clouds stay around for years, they speak god-speak to people, they carry people around, they carry angels around, they carry gods around, they envelope tents for long periods of time, AND SO ON..

Pure gobbledy gook.

They speak god speak to people LOL. Show me where these Pillars of the cloud are so common. Show me the text outside of the Bible that show Pillars of the cloud descending, hovering over tents and people enter into the cloud.

You're saying this is just common. Show me the text outside of the Bible that says this.

originally posted by: neoholographic
In fact, U.F.O.s has been captured in religious imagery.

What's striking about these paintings is the Artists were just capturing religious imagery.

No, they weren't "capturing religious imagery" because there was nothing to "capture", they were doing the work they were commissioned to do, representing religious events according to the rules of their time.

Religious art, specially before the 20th century, followed several rules to represent things, so anyone would know what they were looking at when they saw a religious painting.

Any art historian (or any art student that has studied art history) can tell you that.

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: joelr

You said:




This is just a flat out lie. Jesus is a historical figure and most scholars agree.

The most recent historicity study by Richard Carrier demonstrates that Jesus was most likely a myth and it's not a lie that dying-rising savior gods who forgave personal sins and allowed followers entry into the afterlife were very common before Jesus.
I can give sources for all this.
However the historicity field does still consider that there was A MAN named Jesus who was later mythicized into a demigod. You can't quote a historicity article and cherry pick information. It does not matter if the fictional story of Jesus was based on an actual man or was made up from other legends. Either way the supernatural tales are what's considered myth.
From the same article you posted from:

Historical reliability of the Gospels

.."Little in the four canonical gospels is considered to be historically reliable."

Meaning scholarship does not consider this history or true. It's myth.

originally posted by: neoholographic
While scholars have criticized Jesus scholarship for lack of methodological soundness or consistency,[note 2] with very few exceptions such critics generally do support the historicity of Jesus and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed.[14][15][16][17][note 3]

en.wikipedia.org...

Again, even if a Jewish teacher named Jesus existed what scholars consider myth is the stories of a demigod. That is the myth.
From the same article you posted from:

"Many scholars have questioned the authenticity and reliability of these sources, and few events mentioned in the gospels are universally accepted.[69]"

All of the PhD historians mentioned in that article, Earl Doherity, Bart Ehrman, Price, and so on , they all believe the religion is a myth.
Some of the historians actually have books titled Deconstructing Jesus, The Jesus Myth, The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man, and they even source Carrier???

"Carrier, Richard (2012). Proving History: Bayes's Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus. Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books. ISBN 978-1-61614-560-6."

who has now proven Jesus was most likely not even a real person who the myths were based on.

How can an article say "virtually all historians believe Jesus was a real man" and then have so many mythicist works in THEIR OWN SOURCE LIST???

Bottom line, all PhD biblical historians consider the religion to be mythic. Thompson, Elaine Pagels, Ehrman, Purvoe, Carrier, Doherity, no actual expert thinks magic is real.

originally posted by: neoholographic

Again, your argument is just illogical. You can't dictate how other people read scriptures. You desperately want everyone to think as you do.

For the 7th time, this is not my argument. Look - from an article YOU QUOTED FROM:
" Little in the four canonical gospels is considered to be historically reliable."

The consensus in scholarship is the religion is myth same as all religions.


en.wikipedia.org...

"Christian mythology is the body of myths associated with Christianity and the Bible. The term encompasses a broad variety of legends and stories, especially those considered sacred narratives. Mythological themes and elements occur throughout Christian literature, including recurring myths such as ascending to a mountain, the axis mundi, myths of combat, descent into the Underworld, accounts of a dying-and-rising god, flood stories, stories about the founding of a tribe or city, and myths about great heroes (or saints) of the past, paradises, and self-sacrifice. "


"Christian theologian and professor of New Testament, Rudolf Bultmann wrote that:

The cosmology of the New Testament is essentially mythical in character. The world is viewed as a three storied structure, with the earth in the center, the heaven above, and the underworld beneath. Heaven is the abode of God and of celestial beings -- the angels. The underworld is hell, the place of torment. Even the earth is more than the scene of natural, everyday events, of the trivial round and common task. It is the scene of the supernatural activity of God and his angels .

originally posted by: neoholographic

Is this a joke?

Here's the pic you linked to. It makes sense that you only have 9 flags on your posts. You either flat out lie or you make it up. There's a reason why you didn't post the picture.

It demonstrates that all gods in all myths rode on clouds and the same imagery in the Bible is no different.

originally posted by: neoholographic

What's striking about these paintings is the Artists were just capturing religious imagery. You said:

Oh this. I used to find these compelling but I still had to listen to both sides. A video (probably on youtube) I found featured actual bronze age religious art historians who looked at every example and explained that they were angels.
They even showed other examples that made it clear that these images were angels not ufos.

originally posted by: neoholographic

Okay, since it's common, show me the other text where disciples enter into a cloud after a voice comes out of the cloud.

In just Greek myths alone the Nymphe always appear as clouds, they talk to people and fly around with them:

www.theoi.com...

Now show me a ufo report where the ufo was a cloud that talked to people? But the bible isn't even ufo reports, it's religious scripture which is known to use mythic imagery?

originally posted by: neoholographic


35. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

36. And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Sounds like mythology.

originally posted by: neoholographicSince it's common, show me the text from other religions where a cloud carries someone into the mountains aft

Since it's common, show me the other religious text that shows a pillar of the cloud

ponderful.weebly.com... The mythology of clouds article.



Each myth does different things with clouds the point is cloud imagery is a common mythic device.

This paper, "Rider of the Clouds and Gatherer of the Clouds" goes over many examples of clouds in myth.

"Most of these motifs are found-as shown in my study-in the divine imagery of Egyptian, Hittite, Canaanite, Mesopotamian and biblical sources, and were apparently adopted by the Greek poets.
The present article, however, is concerned with two characteristic divine attributes: god as "rider of the clouds" on the one hand, and as "the gatherer of the clouds" on the the other."

"Thus, in the Babylonian Creati[)n Epic, Marduk is described as "gathering clouds, raising the wind, causing rain and making the fog smoke."

The "Rider of the clouds" and the "Gatherer of the clouds" are, then, both divine epithets rooted in the imagery of the weather God in the near ea

originally posted by: neoholographic


You say:

"Moses (/ˈmoʊzɪz, -zɪs/)[2][Note 1] was a prophet according to the teachings of the Abrahamic religions. Scholarly consensus sees Moses as a legendary figure and not a historical person,[3][4] while retaining the possibility that a Moses-like figure existed."

This is just idiotic. If a Moses like figure existed then Moses is a historical person. The Israelites could have called him Moses but the Egyptians called him by another name.

I actually have to explain this? They mean the mythic Moses did not exist but there may have been a leader at some point named Moses who the MYTHS WERE BASED ON??
Also, why can't you get this, this is not "my argument"?

originally posted by: neoholographic

Thutmose III is believed by some to be the Pharoah in the time of Moses. This could point to the identity of Moses and also point to the involvement of U.F.O.'s involved in the Exodus. You can see why the Vatican might have hidden this. Let's look closer at Thutmose III.

Thutmose III came to power when he was less than 2 years old. So his Fathers main wife, he was born to a minor wife, ruled as his Regent for 22 years. She was basically Pharoah. Her name was Queen Hatshepsut. Some believe Hatshepsut was the Pharoah's daughter who found and raised Moses. Is there a Commoner around who gets high rank? Yes, his name is Senenmut. Here's more:

Senenmut was of low commoner birth....Senenmut first enters the historical record on a national level as the "Steward of the God's Wife" (Hatshepsut) and "Steward of the King's Daughter" (Neferure). Some Egyptologists place Senenmut's entry into royal service during the reign of Thutmose I, but it is far more likely that it occurred during eit

Has the Biblical Moses Been Identified in Secular Egyptian Records?

Crank history is a waste of time. Show me where a PhD OT scholar suggests this. Otherwise anyone can find any crank history to support any crackpot idea. The author of that article is literally a "layman" has no ability to read original sources or anything else a history PhD equips a person with and is promoting a book - The King and her children’. Talk about desperation? Even she admits:
"Moses was a prophet and a leader according to Abrahamic religions, but many scholars view him as a legendary figure rather than a real historic person."

and she's still not looking for a guy who spoke with god and did all the mythical things the character Moses did? She's looking for a nobility person who may have been who the myths are based on? Did you even read the article?

and stop posting scripture, it sounds EXACTLY like mythology and zero like a ufo report.

originally posted by: neoholographic
a reply to: joelr

Senemut’s high standing in the court during the reign of Hatshepsut, coupled with him being wiped from the Egyptian historical narrative, and the correlation between the biblical and Egyptian dating, would suggest therefore that he was the person we know from the Bible as Moses.

Again, your link says Moses is a historical figure just not named Moses by Egyptians. You said:

Oh no, you went and made another post using your layman article….
Moses as a myth is not an argument from some layman writer, it's the consensus of the entire historicity field.

The link I posted to Thompsons work from the 80's was the first peer-reviewed (read by other PhDs in the field and accepted as fact) work on Moses and the patriarchs being myth. It's now a fact.

Also that article you linked to isn't looking for a person who spoke to god and did all sorts of magic, they are looking for a leader who the myths were based on. This is getting tiresome.

originally posted by: neoholographic

They speak god speak to people LOL. Show me where these Pillars of the cloud are so common. Show me the text outside of the Bible that show Pillars of the cloud descending, hovering over tents and people enter into the cloud.

You're saying this is just common. Show me the text outside of the Bible that says this.

Yes "god-speak" is what religious myths are about, how is that funny? Everything in them is to describe and glorify god. You believe in the mythical god as real and you still want to insert your own interpretation of ufos into it?

a lecture on clouds in myths, countless examples of clouds in myth
en.wikisource.org...


Consulting with Jewish historical encyclopedia there is no doubt the cloud/fire pillar is a device used to represent the presence of god. Not grey aliens.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

"The earliest traditions of the Exodus from Egypt refer to the pillar of cloud by day and of fire by night, which accompanied the Children of Israel on their way through the desert (Ex. 13:21–22). The visible symbol of the presence of God caused a panic among the Egyptians as it cut them off from the Israelites (Ex. 14:19b, 24a), and continued to guide and protect the latter uninterruptedly throughout their wanderings. "

"Various explanations have been sought for the origin of these traditions. Among them is the attested use of braziers filled with burning wood at the head of caravans or armies, sometimes placed before the tent of the chief or carried before him."

"In any event, there can be little doubt that the imagery is as old as the time of Moses, and that the cloud, and, in a lesser degree, the fire symbolism proved effective in communicating the presence of God to the people."

"Post-biblical legend embellished the biblical account. Thus, not one but seven clouds descended at Sukkot to envelop and protect the Israelites, one on each of the four sides of the camp, one above and one below, and one which went before them to raise the valleys and lower the mountains. The Israelites were protected against the elements and wild beasts; even their garments did not wear out or become dirty. Eliezer maintained that the Festival of Sukkot commemorated the "clouds of glory" (Suk. 11b) which were considered among God's special creations in the "twilight" of the first six days"

originally posted by: neoholographic


In fact, U.F.O.s has been captured in religious imagery.

www.youtube.com...

1:36:15
they actually talk about those exact pictures. They first show the cook ufo guy saying they are aliens then historians show using examples that those images are Byzantine representations of the sun and moon featured in all paintings of the crucifixion. Others are shown to be circles of angels and examples of circles of angels in other art is given.

All religious paintings from way back had humanized representations of the sun/moon in them. This was a practice started with pagan cults (as every other aspect of religions).

The pic of Mary you posted is a visual representation of actual scripture:

"and there were shepards about in the field….an angel of the lord came upon them..glory of the lord shone around them….

this is why the shepard is covering his eyes, it's an angel.
This video really smashes the ancient aliens crap. See how easy it is to be fooled by a false narrative/